Hi, Monte- thank you for praying, you are such a sweetheart. I forgot to pray. Well, it is clear that my T is interested at this point at helping with the marriage, and helping my h, because he says that is where he sees the problems and there will not be hope for healing for our family if we do not address. Clearly he is very convinced of this, or he would not be pushing for it so hard. My T has never pushed me to do anything. Ever. He does not make decisions for me, but in this case he basically has. I have no idea why I feel so abandoned when clearly this is for the good of my family- all of us. It is a decision made in caring concern- clearly. I guess I wanted my T to care for "little me"- but instead he cares for us- our little family group- and why that should actually hurt so much when it is a good thing, I do not know.

I will continue with individual sessions with him just to hold me up, until such a time as my husband is willing to get on board and do some of his own work, either with my T or with another- or a spiritual director perhaps. It doesn't really matter to me who he does it with- as my T isn't really "my T" anymore, anyway. It would make most sense for my h to do the work with my T, as he understands the issues. At present my h is pretty clueless, somewhat toxic- T says that he is putting all the responsibility for making the marriage work onto me by being so unwilling to do his own work in therapy- and that I cannot heal within this dynamic. Neither can anybody else. It's all very practical and straightforward, and it hurts like hell, but I basically have to do this. There aren't any more warm fuzzies coming from my T to me. I think I was like "I want my T all for myself, mine, mine!!" And it is time for BB to move past that, although I did actually still very much need him "for me." Clearly I do not warrant a lot of personal, one-on-one attention and care from him for my personal issues, for whatever reason.I know it is coming from a place of care. But Liese, if you happen to read this- I wnat to take back the name "bad-ass T."

I feel in letting go, dying to myself, I will still gain something, and likely something valuable, for my family- but it is still very, very painful to do. I am fortunate that I still have time left with my SD before he leaves, because otherwise, I do think I would probably croak for lack of love. Maybe melodramatic, but that's how it feels.

Thank you for being there. Thank you for being so kind to me.

Love,

BB

Aww, BB, Just got up and read your post and my heart aches for you. Of course, you can have the name back.

My experience is just different. My T encourages me to work on myself first. I guess I just assume it's because I am a bit of a pleaser but at the end of the day, being a pleaser isn't really all that giving. I'm not really helping my family and my kids learn how to function if I am doing everything for them. It may seem like a loving way to be but I don't think it really is.

I'm confused as to how you are supposed to work on your marriage when your T thinks you are doing all the work anyway? How can you force your H to step up to the plate?

I think my T's thinking is that as I work on myself, it'll cause my H to feel a little insecure, right? I'm not where I used to be. And, so, my H might in that instance, feel motivated to change something about himself, to meet my needs and the needs of the relationship.

Beebs, I'm so sorry you are in such pain and confusion. I can't say that you are necessarily wrong to want what you want because the little part of me wants to same thing. I do feel such a hurt that needs to be healed and I'm not sure I can do it in my relationship with my H.

((((HUGS)))))

Liese

Beebs,

Hope you are okay.

(((((little bb)))))

I wish I could say more.... Being loved is very important. Even if you can't experience it with your T right now, you are loved, by God and people here too.

praying for you,
~jane

Bebe, I feel deeply for you in this. There is a great deal of resonance between your situation and mine right now. I am right now processing tonight's session, and will write it up. I hope whatever resonates is only helpful.

Love,
Jones

(((((BB))))) This sounds really hard. It is great that your T wants to help with your marriage but this shouldn't be at the expense of your own personal needs. You deserve to have someone care for you as an indivdual.

Butterfly

Thank you for hearing me and understanding- Monte, Liese, JD, Jones- you people are such a source of comfort- reading all your loving responses this morning has me in a much better, much less lonely place. The only thing I was worried about in posting what I did, was that very truly- this would *not* be the path for everyone, or maybe everyone is on a different part of the path...something- It is really individual and unique to my own therapy journey, and while there are certainly resonances, as Jones also says, between our situations, completely, partially, or just little bit- I would worry if it came across that the way my T and I are approaching this, is the way that everyone needs to do it. It's just the way it needs to be for me, for us. Thank you all so much, most especially for understanding how much it hurts. Not a lot of people- maybe my T included- would be able to understand that part, why it's very much he is hurting me. Jones I look forward to reading your story...I hope I can be with you a little in what you are suffering, as well. That's true for all of you guys.

Love to you all- Liese, maybe we can share the name..

((((((BB)))))))

I'm so sorry. I am constantly afraid that T will make me relive that "shoved away" feeling I experienced with my parents for my entire childhood. I know it must be torturous. Are you able to tell T or H or SD how it feels? I wish I could be over there and give little you the hug she deserves and desperately needs right now, but I know God is holding you tight!!!

Butterfly, Yaku- crossposted...thanks you both, too. It is ok. It is what has to be, for me right now.

Beebs,

You can have the name. I have to push myself to be a little creative and come up with something on my own. Thanks for saying we could share.

I'm happy that at least you accept at some level what your T is saying, even if it hurts Beebs. You know this is one place where everyone understands emotional pain. Never worry that we think that one way is the only way. We understand that everyone has to do what's right for them, including you.

thanks Liese, and thanks "peepfried!" (love your new avatar!) Liese, I'm just being silly about the name- I hope you know that. I have no serious love for it or anything.(((Liese)))

I realize that since it doesn't feel like it's ok to process my own personal feelings about things with my T, really, or at least- I have some confusion there- I hope it's ok to do some of that here...my thoughts.

It all seems intimately connected to marriage somehow. It was scary to read what Jones' T had to say about the abuse relationships, and getting to a point where progress can no longer be made. I never thought of my relationship as abusive, but my T is making me realize that it is, on the emotional level. I also fear my H doing his own work, because I actually have worried in past that he will become physically abusive. Then, in another, really odd way- that would be more honest, and easier to deal with. Very strange.
I've been remembering, since my session this morning, that when I married my H it was in the full knowledge that I would be rescuing him, and that without me he would surely never have a hope. I don't know how I knew this, but I knew, and that is still very painful to accept. Now comes the pain- I never wanted to be a knight in shining armour. It was always my wish to be the damsel in distress. But T will not allow this, and because of the deep reversal of roles that is inherent in our marriage, I think this is just the way it actually has to happen. I simply have to give up what I honestly and legitimately need- for the sake of my husband, in my case. I don't think I am strong enough to do this- but it will be done, one way or another. I just hope that the pain doesn't get too much worse. I know it's old pain- I've figured out that it's transferred pain from the past and from the present onto my T- which allows me to look at it and experience it, which I would not be able to do without him. I suspect my T is into something that goes a lot deeper than attachment theory. I don't exactly know what it is- but it hurts like hell. And it's just the way it has to be. For me.

I'm just trying to follow you here. You wanted to be the damsel in distress, which is what you are trying to do with T because you tried to rescue H but didn't really want to???

So is T saying that H wants to be rescued and you found that attractive in some way but it's not really meeting your needs?

How did things end with T? No more individual??

Liese.. I'm confused myself. Let me see if I can put it in words. I need to let my T "rescue" my H. In some sense it feels like I'm giving up what I legitimately need from my T (intimate emotional connection) so that my H can have it- and then hopefully at some point, he will grow strong enough to give some of it to me, in the more legitimate emotional intimacy of our relationship. It's like letting my T come to give my H the emotional needs, or something- that I wanted from him for myself. That's what it feels like. It feels very much like I can't have it both ways- it's either my T, or my H- in my case. Who will I choose? It's weird. All of this is very contingent on my H actually accepting the help that my T wants to give him, and through him, ultimately *us.* I have to be a "knight in shining armour," in the sense that I have to encourage my H somehow to accept this help- emotional intimacy and honesty with my T- even though he doesn't want it, and I want to keep it for myself. Because it will be good for him, and good for us, and good for our kids. I have to try, stop preferring my T to my H- but I can't do this unless my H begins to learn from my T how to meet some of my emotional needs, himself, through looking at himself and growing up, becoming a man- with my T. My H- I wish I could describe it to you- he is really kind of a ghost of a person. If I manage to do this giving up -and he does manage to accept it- than I will lose my T- but gain my husband. Because my H is not currently a "person" in his own right, but is kind of sucking the emotional life out of me in some mysterious way that I don't really understand. My H is also emotionally deprived. We both are. I guess it just doesn't "feel" right to me anymore to accept emotional intimacy with my T. So it feels now, more practical and straightforward, a sharing of thoughts and ideas on how to make things better, and also some of what my frustrations are. And it hurts to let the emotional intimacy go, because I really do need it.

For now- until we are able to bring H in more authentically, as more of a choice on his part- I will continue to meet individually with my T. But it's just not the same anymore. It's like I've grown up, kind of- but way before I was ready. There is still this painful interior sense of "little me" hurting really badly and left behind by both H and T in this new dynamic- to deal alone with her pain.

Beebs,

I am so glad at least you will continue to meet individually with your T. Sorry to talk about me, Beebs but I see a lot of similarities to my situation with my H. I think my H is basically sucking the life out of me too. Getting my H to change, though, is going to be another story. His childhood was so horrendous and knowing what I know about how painful therapy can be, I can't blame him for not wanting to take the plunge. He is seeing a therapist now but it's only been a couple of weeks so I am not holding my breath there. My H has a way of keeping his feelings hidden.

And, so, can I ask how T helped you to grow up??? Or was it something you came to on your own???


In my situation, I have so much of my own personal growth to do that I do need therapy in my own right. Whatever that drug is that T gives me is vital. I never got that anywhere before. What is it? Undivided attention??? As long as T wants to keep giving it to me, I am going to keep taking it. I just hope I learn how to get it elsewhere before he pulls the plug.

Beebs, I can't say enough that I am so glad that you will continue to see T. It's all about emotions and emotionally needs and the things we supply for them. At least that's what I am getting. I shouldn't presume your situation is the same. It's the same role we (I) took on in my family, taking care of everyone's emotional needs. It's exhausting!!!

Liese- fwiw, my T mentioned today that he sees the dynamic my h and I are dealing with in marriages constantly. I am so glad to hear that your H is getting his own therapy. I think that is crucial, just crucial.

I don't know how T helped me to "grow up" really- I don't think he did. I think I made this choice- to let, no- *make* my H come into *my* counseling- and then it just happened, kind of, but probably not the way it was ideally "supposed to." So I am left with quite a bit of emotional suffering. But maybe that is par for the course. Yes, undivided attention, but of a certain kind is very much needed!

I'm sure I will slip out of my present surety, and back into my "wailing and gnashing of teeth mode" very soon. But for now I feel accepting of the situation. I hope that I will be able to stand firm, and that my H will go to counseling. I do actually prefer that he go to my kick-ass T, since I don't really feel possessive of him anymore, just hurting and needing badly to find a way for some of my T's kind of love to get back to me yet again. Love is Love. In the end it doesn't really matter where it comes from, as long as it is the real deal, and we are able to receive it when it comes available to us, and then give it back again.

Oh BB I totally respect what you are saying here and you are being gracious enough to move over to allow your T to work with your H so that he can become more of a fully functioning person but I can't help but feel sad that you will eventually lose out on the individual work that you deserve. I understand you will still get your sessions whilst you wait for your H to be in a place to accept his help but I am sad that things can't be the same for you and that you have to grow up before you are ready. I will of course fully support you in your decision but I wanted to send you some ((((hugs)))) as this really can't be easy for you. I admire your strength and at the same time I hope you are able to look out for your needs.

Hugs
Butterfly

wow, thank you Butterfly, Flutterby...I almost think that, in some strange way I am looking out for my needs. Just not *my* needs- something like that. I'm not sure. Marriage is really really hard. A "school of Love," as they say.

(((BEEBS))))

It is what it is, right? It is so generous of you to share your T. I do feel possessive of my T and wish I didn't. OOOh, I'm seeing a parallel here. I felt that way when I had my firstborn. What's that about?

Anyway, Beebs, at least your T is there and when and if you decide you want to work on yourself, you have him as a resource and that is a good thing.

((((BIG HUGS)))))

And KickASS T is great too!!!

haha- I think I will use kick-ass T! you can have bad- ass T!

quote:

OOOh, I'm seeing a parallel here. I felt that way when I had my firstborn. What's that about?

I think this is really, really insightful- that's what I think.

big hugs back,

Beebs

I need to think of one myself, Beebs. I'm not creative at all and I'm trying to do brain exercises. Well, since you are being so generous, I may "borrow" it from time to time.

BB,

I was going to post almost exactly what Butterfly did, but she did it so well that I won't repeat it. Just wanted to say that I share her thoughts on this. Please continue to keep us posted. (((hugs)))

Thank you STRMS...it means a lot. In every way.

Liese- you are more creative than you give yourself credit for...I am sure you will think of some name for your dear T that will satisfy you!

So it's a few days after my long-awaited individual session, and I'm kinda, just- I really don't know.

I feel totally creepy today. I woke up in this really creepy frame of mined, I hate everybody in my family, and can only see the negative, and I'm just raging, full of anger again, at my H and at myself for being like this with my H and my kids. It's been a little while since I felt this angry at him. I'm remembering that in my session my T made a comment about me having a lot of anger turned inwards, that I am a very angry person, and that it's all repressed. Well- I don't know how to find my way out of that, dear T- it just is. I seem to remember him telling me some months back, that I am *not* an angry person- so, ok- which one is it? today I'm angry- for sure. I just feel like I am going to pop- and nobody even *did* anything- it's all just me. I'm just so sick of this. So sick of not having any answers except paradoxical ones that leave me flip-flopping around like a dying fish. Today I want to run, far, far away from everyone and everything. I'm feeling really desperate. i am so sick of just being me. So changeable. It's exhausting, and nobody cares or understands what this is- nobody who can help me does anyway. Today I'm back to being lost in the wilderness and giving up on finding a way out.
Is there any hope?

I have hope for you, BB!!! I'm sorry you are feeling so angry. (((((Hugs)))))

There is always hope BB... though sometimes it takes a while to find. In the mean time, know that we are all here for you on the forum, ready to support you the way you support us!

(((((BB)))))

Thanks you two- I'm trying to avoid my family today as I keep getting so mad at them for no reason. I figure it is better to avoid them then to unjustly take it out on them. But my H is just getting madder at me for this, and I can't find the way out. He just makes me feel so yucky lately, so completely trapped an helpless. I'm just ...yuck. I hate 'im. Not a very nice sentiment, but the truth for today. Wish he would once in a great while, be a grown-up around here.

(((((BEEBS)))))

It must feel awful to have to avoid people living in your own house??? Hope you can find some peace or a room of your own.

Liese

BB - Much empathy for you. Went to take a nap in my bedroom. Couldn't sleep, because memories keep flooding me, but have been "hiding" in here anyway, because I can't bring myself to want to be in anyone's presence when I am feeling so invaded like this. ((((((BB))))))

Dear Bebe,

You are doing great. This has to be really short, unfortunately, but I'm really proud of you for feeling your anger. I would like to encourage you to do something physical with the anger - exercise or throw out old things or mop the floor - these things work for me - so that you have the chance to discharge some of the energy it makes in your body.

Thinking of you,

Jones

BB,

I'm sorry you are struggling so much today. I think getting in touch with the anger is great. It's what you do with it that matters and will determine where you go with it. If you need to avoid your family right now then take some time and let yourself do that. I also agree with Jones, find some physical ways to discharge the energy that it creates in your body. (((hugs)))

BB,
I agree that feeling the anger is a very good thing and I also know it DOES NOT feel good at all - especially when you're used to directing it inward! Please try to be gentle with yourself....
And get out the boxing gloves!!
Thinking of you.....((BB))
seablue

Thanks guys...you are all so sweet. These are all great suggestions- I did some tidying, and went for a drive- (Monte, way too scared to say some of the stuff I was saying- directly to God- especially the swears and insults at my H- My connection with God remains...pretty distrustful, and tenuous- but SD is working hard on that with me. I hope to gain some emotional intimacy with God at some point, but it's not something that I expect to happen anytime real soon. I wish it would.

I even called an older friend of mine, which I never do, (more guilt)- but I just can't talk or something, so it was like "so, how ya doing...fine...I'm concerned about you...yup, but I'm fine...how are you...gag, choke.." T has said to send angry emails to him in the past- which I have done, no holds barred- but it didn't seem to discharge it, back then. It's like the only thing that could possibly help me, is to yell and scream and hurt the person with my words- which fact makes me feel creepy, and which clearly is *not* an option to carry out, so...

I don't know, I wonder why none of that other stuff seems to help. Shouldn't it? Every so often I'm crying, but that doesn't seem to ever discharge whatever is going on under there either. It's like it's just- stuck, or something- and I don't even know what *it* is. *trigger* I feel like hurting myself, but I'm not going to do that, because that will just make it worse, the guilt, and then I'd have to tell SD that, and I just don't want to do that. I have no idea. yuck. Life doesn't feel very much like I want to be in it right now, but I am hanging on. I will see T again on the 29th. Thanks for listening. I'm so glad for you all- you are blessings.

((((((BEEBS)))))))

Beebs, don't know if this helps, but whatever you do, physically, it has to be in a way you can go THROUGH the anger and feel it. So tidying up which includes chucking ALL THIS USELESS CRAP IN A BIG RUBBISH SACK is good, tidying things carefully into their places (suppressing) is not. Driving I wouldn't recommend, because you have to be careful; walking, running, swimming are good, because you can stride/pound/thrash around. Beating rugs is GOOD. Thumping the hell out of some pillows is good. See what I'm saying? That thing about hurting yourself - let go of the *image* of hurting yourself, but work with that same *energy*. Don't turn it inwards, but send it *out*.

love,
Jones

Beebs,
I know anger can be really uncomfortable for me too. For my dad the distance between anger and violence was so short, I actually didn't comprehend they were different things until my T explained it, so anger feels really dangerous. When I get angry, it can feel like I'm a horrible person, but even scarier, that I'm going to inevitably hurt, if not destroy, someone or something. So I get your deep discomfort.

But BB, I wouldn't agree that the anger is about nothing or has no reason. I think it may be that you are becoming more aware of how you're feeling, I have seen you question so much lately, which I think is a really good thing. It may be that all the ways you are trying to discharge the anger, may not be working, because you really have things to be angry about. Anger is a sign that we feel like we are being injured and need to protect ourselves. Instead of beating yourself up for feeling angry, I am wondering what you would learn by listening to it instead. What are you angry about? It may be that you are screaming inside about things that need to be changed.

I could be totally wrong about this, but just wanted to offer it up as food for thought.

AG

Excellent point, AG. xxx

Thanks for these replies, guys.
Liese- hugs and lots of them, back!

Jones- these sprecific suggestions are actually really, really helpful to me- along with the explanations of *why.* It might seem like I should be able to think of that, but for some reason I just don't. Not sure why. My T has even suggested hitting pillows beofre, but I think if he had told me to "thump the hell out of them," it would have made more sense to me. I really appreciate this. Yeah. That makes more sense. Now it's just a matter of bringing myself to *do* this stuff, next time. This morning I just feel very who cares again.

AG- yes. Anger is scary. For myself I had an extremely passive and uninvolved father, but when he did get mad- watch out. He could really twist that knife, and make a person feel bad and worthless- even though there were times when he could be loving- so I relate to what you are saying here. Anger is very confusing for me. It's really hard for me to feel what I feel. I experienced becoming aware of my feelings, somewhat, in the counseling so far- but I seem to always shut them down again somehow. It's very hard for me to see that anything could be happening *to me* that really isn't right, though my T has been working pretty solidly to try to get me to see it- I still kinda *just don't* and feel angry at myself for being angry about my situation when I have it so good now. Is that like some kind of classic denial, or something? idk. T seems pretty p.o.'d at my H when I listen to them talk. I still can't figure out if the things that make me angry are me being a jerkface, or if they are legit. They seem pretty small potatoes things to be *this* angry about.