g

hmmm...I'll have to think about this one, althought the concept makes sense it is pretty hard for me to do in practice. It's so much easier to defend and justify my own bad behavior than to confess and admit to it, without dulling the pain by using guilt feelings. .Deep stuff here!

BB

quote:

It helps to understand why some folk lash out at us irrationally, because of that need to get anger out. At the same time we need to know how to defend ourselves if that behaviour is intolerable. Boundries!

Agreed. As a whole, not too many people are willing to explore and understand anger. It is an energy, and can be a destructive one, but even more so when we deny it or refuse to understand it.

Unfortunately, I am no longer with my T. Among other things, yes, he was threatened.

BB: Thanks for your reply! Yes, it is hard.

I'll go a little deeper:

I am very envious of those who have more than me, but I outright resent those who have more than I do but have done little to earn it. I feel like I deserve what they have. I feel a bit of rage (in my body) when it is suggested that I have somehow made bad financial decisions,(I am temporarily poor due to a triad of a bad real estate market, a divorce, and getting a master's degree) and that it is my fault that I have struggled. (Really? Luck and timing are not key components of financial success? ) Let's add defensive, (even though I feel it is justifiable) AND I feel resentment towards those who don't have much, but expect the same, or more, of the "goodies" in life than I have... yet have done little of the work (or are too afraid to take the risks) that is required to earn those things. I'm quite into merit, and I'm stubborn about that. I know life isn't fair. But I'm still pissed off. Rationalizing about life being unfair, although I accept it, doesn't always help.

Attempts at trying to prove my point of view as "wrong" will be futile..I already told you how I feel, now feel free to think of me as a jerk, (or worse) Maybe I already know I can be those things, at times.

Ok, this is what I mean by confessional. I'm struggling with these things RIGHT NOW. I have not transcended my anger or envy or resentment. I do feel like I deserve. I'm stubborn, I'm blunt, and I can be judgemental. Did I mention that I can go into a martyr mode? Wow, sounds pretty obnoxious, doesn't it? Hey, let's try victim-mentality on for size!! I did not mention anything about a poor sense of self-worth, because that has been covered extensively already on other threads.

I don't mean for this to be a political debate, again, it's to prove a point.. that we all have a Dark Side, and it's worthy of a look.



It's not always about the other guy.

d

Great thread number9! A topic that fits exactly where I’m at right now.

And good for you for being so honest about how you’re feeling and what you think – to openly express anger based feelings and perceptions that other people can be so quick to judge is I reckon SO much harder and more threatening than revealing the more socially acceptable ‘softer’ vulnerable feelings (not that anger based feelings aren’t vulnerable making as well.)

I really like the idea of this thread being an ongoing one where we can post the shitty feeling things life inspires in us on a continuing basis. A healthy balance to feeling like one has to always look for the positive in everything and strive to eradicate the negative in ourselves.

And I heartily endorse what you’re saying about us being quick to objectify shadow traits and to think generally in terms of ‘they’ and ‘them’ whilst ignoring (or defending against) the probability that those very traits actually exist in us.

So let’s see, where shall I start .

Hell if I wrote a list of all the shadow traits in myself, this post could be never ending, but I’ll give it a go.

I am very resentful – I resent a lot of things, I respond to most situations primarily with resentment, that’s my default setting. Minor example – say I’m driving along a narrowed road (those in UK will know what I’m talking about) and see a car coming the other way, I’ll stop and let them come through first even if I might have the right of way. If they don’t acknowledge that I’ve stopped for them I feel resentful and will usually mutter to myself something like, oh no need to mention it, arsehole!

Another example. Say I get a letter or an email from someone and I write back pretty quickly (I’m almost incapable of not responding immediately to people) and then they don’t reply for ages, sometimes weeks or even months (my mother was good at that) well I sit and stew in this resentment for ages and go through all sorts of things like, right that’s it, she’s off my Christmas card list, or, ok if she wants to be like that then I’LL play that game too and not write back for ages, and so on and so forth…

It’s not good clean anger, it’s this gnawing helpless frustrating feeling of being powerless and treated like I don’t matter and unlike clean anger which gives the energy to DO something about a painful situation I usually end up doing and saying nothing it all just sits in my head eating away at me.

Envy. That’s another big one in me. I am SO envious of so many people. And it’s a raging kind of envy where it feels like I want to destroy the other, because they’ve got, or are, something I want and have never had and can’t seem to get. Example – I find myself sniping at the so-called celebrity culture and making disparaging comments about this celeb or that celeb and generally being scornful and looking for faults in them and I just KNOW it’s because I envy them like anything. What’s so great about them that they get all this adulation and admiration and respect and lead privileged lives where people fall over themselves to be their friends and get asked their thoughts on things they have no expertise or experience of and get invited to mingle with other ‘important’ and famous people when I’m sitting here thinking ‘what about me? Why can’t I be treated like that?’

And I make really angry comments (under guise of being a morally based objection) about the obscene amounts of money that footballers make because basically I’m envious of them for having it so easy, for being able to do something that is actually a game and for pleasure and get paid vast sums of money for doing very little – again ‘what about ME? Why can’t I be paid huge sums of money for doing what I like and enjoy? And worse still, why can’t I be rich like them? Why couldn’t I have married a footballer' ( )

While I could explain away all these things by reference to internal pain and the past and what it all really tells me about me and what things to look at in me in order to ‘become a better person’, I’m not going to because right now, this IS me.

Hm I reckon that’s enough dark side stuff from me for now. Despite knowing this about myself and being able to accept it as ok to a degree, it’s still quite threatening and scary making putting this out here in public where I could be opening myself up to a lot of moral lectures. Be brave LL push ‘post now’ lol.

LL

I think I get rage easily. It's rage that comes out when I am attempting to learn something. I can't learn anything without being a perfectionist and incredibly impatient. I quit my uni course and smashed up my guitar recently because of it. I assume that there must be a lot of stuff to process there.

Yes I get envy and jealousy. I get jealous of my best friend who gets more girl attention then I do. I want to tell her to f**k off but of course, I never do because she's my best friend. I've even told her this a few times. I'm trying to get through that but its hard. I feel so incompetent with attracted girls that I either become really self-indulgent narcissist or avoid interaction altogether. I can't relax.

I sometimes despise those who are just like myself and who have vulnerabilities which is the chief reason I will not own a pet or have a child for a very long time. I don't trust myself. I don't trust my anger with stuff like this. The last thing I want to do is lash out at a vulnerable being that is in my constant care. I feel guilty over that because it suggests that I might have pschopathic traits . I really don't trust myself.

Resentful about not being listened to at all times. If I don't feel listened to or someone passes a comment in a tone that I don't like, I hate them (bpd black and white saga i think). I have sadistic desires sometimes. Desires to torture but they don't trump up very often.

I think I am harbouring so much under the surface. I feel numb these days unfortunately. *sigh*. mainly because the therapy relationship is making me so stressed out. im avoiding the idea of therapy ending like wildfire. i dont want to grieve. im too scared.

Thanks for the replies! You guys got the "gist"

quote:

While I could explain away all these things by reference to internal pain and the past and what it all really tells me about me and what things to look at in me in order to ‘become a better person’, I’m not going to because right now, this IS me.

Yep. Of course we are all working on our "stuff". Always striving to improve. But our shit doesn't just go away by just looking away. The problem I had with my T is that he would shame me by bringing up "stuff" that was sometimes about me, but often just as much about him. His attitude was "just stop it, you have triggers/issues/bad feelings and its WRONG. This is NOT the way to go about looking at the Dark Side. Now that I'm exploring mine, I hope he decides to look at his own shit before he continues on his path of "helping" others. What a hypocrite. I despise hypocrisy. I'm sure that I have been guilty of it..let's add hypocrite to the list.

Ok, small vent there. AND boy, gee whiz, I AM FREAKING PISSED at him. With good reason. Back to my crap...

quote:

Hm I reckon that’s enough dark side stuff from me for now. Despite knowing this about myself and being able to accept it as ok to a degree, it’s still quite threatening and scary making putting this out here in public where I could be opening myself up to a lot of moral lectures. Be brave LL push ‘post now’ lol.

And again, it is scary, isn't it? Exactly. No moralizing lectures or preaching here! Talk about what's eating at you...acknowledge your anger, Luke, come to the Dark Side... and the work that we do with the Light Side will be more fruitful. I was very anxious about my last post.


Hi FMN! Thanks so much for posting! All the honest, raw stuff you mentioned. I read it all! I didn't know what to extract...because I didn't really want to pick apart your experiences, just let it be.. respect what you have to say as it is!

I also get very angry when I'm ignored or feel that I'm not heard. I also have a hard time with feelings of incompetence/perfectionism/envy.

Muff... Thanks! I will go with it. No T's, though, I do better on my own for now. (bad experience- and I'm holding waaaay back on how I really feel about this one, just because I'm tired )

d

Muff: I hear you!

GRRR!

quote:

His attitude was "just stop it, you have triggers/issues/bad feelings and its WRONG. This is NOT the way to go about looking at the Dark Side

It's been shown repeatedly that what we focus on becomes amplified. Is it possible that your T was trying to guide you on that fine line between EXPRESSING what you feel and over-indulging it, which only exacerbates it? It really can be an almost undiscernable line at times.
Just a thought, fwiw.

Starry

Starry:

I assure you that in no way did I over-indulge. I simply, and appropriately, vented about an issue that bothered me, in my usual, cold, detached, intellectualizing manner. His response was to become verbally abusive to me in order to reduce me to sobbing and tears, in order for me (him) to experience my more "vulnerable" and "honest" side. According to many, the socially acceptable emotions of vulnerability and attachment and feelings of low self-worth are honest, but expressing these other "darker" emotions is NOT honest? They don't put me in a vulnerable state? Really? He most unskillfully attempted to "smash through" my defenses, and as a result, he did do some damage. What he did was disrespectful, and I never felt safe with him afterwards.

The truth is that he was not able to handle working with an intelligent woman who can think for herself. Later, I was unable to express myself with him and became a dead, compliant, shell. I got out.

If you read what I wrote earlier, (and I know it's long) I am now a bit afraid of my own anger. I do not have a problem with controlling emotions, rather I have no opportunity to express them with anyone, as I live alone, I choose not to "dump my shit" on anyone, and I am expected to act in a professional manner when I am working with clients. Which I am quite good at.

Thanks for your thoughts!

hoo boy!

how can I say anything here without insulting...is it possible to express alternate viewpoint on the issue of "negativity vs. positivity" without coming off as lecturing, unaccepting, pharasaical or preachy? Or the dreaded "Holier than thou?"

I'm not sure. But, heck, I'll give it a go.

I have suffered for many years with what I'll loosely term an "addiction to/justification of the negative." I've seen the effects of this in my kids, in close friends, family members. The only thing I've observed is that it has not been helpful (although certainly an available alternative/choice) towards leading a life that fulfills me. I have often much preferred the negative, the negative in myself, the negative in others, the negatives in my life- and having been immersed in this addiction (as it was/is for me, personally) can completely see it as a "preferred way of being" at times. What I'm gonna suggest, (and which might not be appreciated, but in the interest of open-mindedness and welcoming differing views and all of that-) is that it *is* possible to make the decision, through sheer willpower, conscious choice- or force of will- to live inside of a different "way of being." I'm not trying to state that one or the other is "better" than the other. That's not my aim here. I guess admittedly it really comes down to free will. What does one prefer? Which "way of being" is preferable to the individual? Are we victims of our thoughts and pasts- or do we have power- if we want- to do-think-feel- differently than we are now? To live in a place of light...well, there are times I prefer the darkness, and there just *is* an intrinsic shame in me at that realization! I like the idea of not being helpless, enslaved- but I hate the idea of my true thoughts and feelings, whether negative or positive being...unacceptable. Often I've found my positive thoughts were unacceptable, and I have found this to be as equally excruciating painful (if not more)an experience as when my negative feelings and thoughts were rejected as unworthy/bad. Everyone wants to be accepted. But what if it is just- that indulging those negative, or dark thoughts and feelings is unworthy of ME, and me alone? Accepting them as part of our state of being, I can completely agree with. But if there was no shame associated with negativity, than I doubt number 9, that you would call this a "confessional"...

Thoughts? (I love a good intellectual discussion, as I am a bit of a philosophy buff )

d

Ok, I'm going to say this again. Exploring our shadow or Dark Side is not the same thing as dwelling in it. Negating our shadow (dark side) has a tendency to create the opposite effect in many people (and I make no sweeping, broad, generalized statements here, this is what works for me and many others, which is why I thought I would share this idea on the forum)

I appreciate all the input here. As long as your thoughts and feelings are honest, it's all part of a good discussion.

But I really opened myself up here. I was honest about my dark side. In another thread, I would be happy to tell you about my higher self, and all positive things I have done, all the self-discipline, self-denial, and altruism that I have taken part in. About all the times I have taken the higher road. But that is not why I started this thread. Is anyone else out there up to facing down some demons? (keeping in mind that anger and other "negative" emotions are legitimate and have a good reason for existing) I also recognize that some of you may be doing this already in therapy, I respect that. It IS a bit scary.

BB: Thanks for the input. I am thinking that this "dark thing" is a bit like he story of Jonah in the belly of the whale. Sometimes you have to go through it an experience it instead of around it. Athough I myself come fully loaded with cheesy Star Wars references, if you like Thoughts?

Muff: (at the risk of sounding like a T)So how would that feel?

h

ah...I just get too in my head and fail to hear what people are getting at. I'm sorry...I guess I was just sticking my head in where I didn't really understand what was being said. yarg.
I hope you can understand although it is written word, the spirit my comments were meant in- not intended to be critical, just thinking out loud, truly.

be well..and may the force go with you...

BB

f

hi,
a very interesting topic number 9! i think its a good idea to be more open about our 'dark side' as you call it, or maybe in general about our 'human side'. but i'm also hoping this will not be a thread where people would post to focus on their negative traits and end up punishing themselves for it... i feel that's the kind of thing i would do, it would feed my inner critic and my self-loathing... but maybe talking about those traits openly would mean that the inner critic would become less powerful?!... i don't know....... just food for thought...

i tend to critisize myself and point out all of my dark-side actions on a daily basis, so I am unsure whether this would work for me... i think i am also addicted to my negativity similar to what BB said (although she might have meant something different).
shame is a big block for me, although i can easily make a very looooong list of my faults to myself, i hardly ever admit to any of them in front of others.

so i will start small... lately, especially in therapy, i have noticed how i get quite passive agressive and i feel like i am also controlling and manipulative - and i feel like that is not me! (denial maybe)... or maybe these are traits that i feel i have learned (in order to survive, or copied them from my parents) but are not traits that really fit in with me or my personality (or maybe denial again?), i mean if i'm gonna be a bitch about it, i would rather just be a direct bitch and get it over with rather than all this round about crap!

LL, i found your list rather endearing actually - especially your first one about driving

and there was nothing shocking or 'bad' about what everyone else wrote, so maybe its good to share and feel that we are all human...

puppet

quote:

so i will start small... lately, especially in therapy, i have noticed how i get quite passive agressive and i feel like i am also controlling and manipulative - and i feel like that is not me! (denial maybe)... or maybe these are traits that i feel i have learned (in order to survive, or copied them from my parents) but are not traits that really fit in with me or my personality (or maybe denial again?), i mean if i'm gonna be a bitch about it, i would rather just be a direct bitch and get it over with rather than all this round about crap!

This is great!!! Thanks so much for putting this out here, because even though we are more or less anonymous, it's still scary!!

I enjoy the honesty, because the negativity many of us feel (I'm not worthy) is really away of HIDING from the REAL issues... for example, I can be very critical of myself and others.. point a finger, 4 come back to me) But it's so much easier to focus on what is more socially acceptable (or acceptable to a T..or even acceptable to OURSELVES)... guilt, shame, feelings of unworthiness, grief, being a victim, etc.

I LOVE what you said about being a direct bitch and getting over it that going around with the passive aggressive behavior! Many women don't want to own this.. .they think they are being a "good girl" but are really driving those around them crazy.

The best thing I ever did was tell my T that he was wrong. No rage, I just told him that he crossed a line with me, and that if he ever did it again, I was out. 3 strikes. I am so glad I had the integrity to follow through. He knows that he crossed a line, but chose to to it again. This is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I wasn't about to send him a message that it's OK to treat clients the way he did, and I knew he wasn't going to change. I no longer trusted him. He needs the feeback.. someone to tell him that he is behaving like an arrogant jerk, so that he may think twice about hurting someone else. Unfortunately, the manner in which I left him was very passive. I did a classic "Reaction formation"... which means smile, say "have a nice day" when you really mean "F#ck (can I just say fuck?") off".

Of course, I'm not as good at saying what I need to in the moment when I'm angry. Arrghh.

I think it is much easier to go ahead and get pissed off, and eventually learn to not let certain things get to us, knowing that we HAVE THE OPTION call someone on their shit, but we don't always NEED to go there. This is real freedom. And this takes practice, there is a dignified way to do this, and a not-so-dignified/graceful way to go about it. If we never practice using anger properly, more problems arise that are even more difficult to deal with.

However, at least in my experience, being told that we need to "control" (read: STOP) these emotions, makes it even worse. I decided to allow myself to experience good, clean anger. I honestly don't have rage or emotional dysregulation issues, and I don't know if it is a cause or result of allowing myself to be with my own anger.

Until I got a T that told me that it was WRONG to get angry. I kid you not. I bitched once, about a political issue,(it was a metered and controlled rant) and was flat out told that I have "too many triggers". Now that I left this idiot, I'm "cured". I'm "normal". I'm reclaiming myself, including my anger. I left him to deal with is own issues.

Of course, I'm just talking about rational anger here. Irrational anger needs to be looked at as well, not just stuffed away. For real. Not just given lip service.

I was intending this to be more of a sharing,and I got to rambling. Yikes. carry on...

May the Force Be With You!

I was thinking about deleting what I wrote, worried that it would become a rant about my Ex T.

But maybe it was good to talk about a different type of anger, for the sake of comparison. I'm not proud of ALL my anger. Sometimes it's irrational, unjustified, destructive, and bitchy.

I wonder, if I would have stayed on with T, if I would have responded to his manipulation with counter-manipulation. Not something I wanted to teach myself to get into the habit of doing. I can see how it would be such an easy place to go to, wouldn't it? But as puppet mentioned.. is this really who I am? It feels foreign to me, so I'm going to say no.

Also, I admit, that one of my defense mechanisms is to actually preempt any outside attack by admitting to/exposing my weaknesses before another gets a chance to. Odd? or No?

Thanks again, for hearing all this.. I'm reading your posts as well!

OH! Thanks Muff!!!

I think this is a great discussion and thank you to everyone for being so open. My T and I have done a LOT of work around my being able to accept that I am human and sometimes I am going to experience my dark side of envy, anger, jealously, revenge, and destructiveness. That those feelings are normal and can be accepted. And that acknowledging those feelings, letting them in, is the safest way to not act on them in an irresponsible manner, but using them to face and handle the situations that are evoking them.

I've had to process a lot of rage over what happened to me, and a lot of it has felt very scary because it can feel like if I open up and let in the darker feelings I will lose control. It's difficult stuff to deal with.

And I've lost track of how many times he has told me that 'anger' is just another emotion.

And I must confess to often yelling at other drivers LL! My daughter used to give me a REALLY hard time about it until she started driving and yelling at other drivers.

AG

Thanks AG!

This does give me hope that there are T's that provide a safe place to explore the Dark Side.

I like the way your T allowed you to be HUMAN. Again, it's not a cop-out, it's hard work to take responsibility for our shadows and learn to "rule" it (I'm looking for the right word, this isn't quite right) before it rules us. And it can be done while keeping one's dignity intact (pride and dignity being two different things)

Oh, boy, it's hard. Actually the confession is helping me MORE than the interrogation/torture/ripping apart sessions I went through, I'm NOT a freak!

PS: Got it! I feel that I can't just RULE the Dark Side, I have to befriend it as well. As in.. "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".

That's why I think this is important Number9, I spent a lot of years during which I had a very difficult time accepting criticism because it was too threatening to my fragile sense of self. So when this stuff starts coming up, it can be agonizing to recognize it in myself (often because it triggers a deep fear of becoming like my abuser). I am very grateful that I have a T whose reaction is "big whoop, everyone feels this way sometimes." I'm glad this is helping you, thanks for opening this up so we can know that we're not alone in dealing with it.

AG

(((((NUMBER9)))))

If you have a lot of triggers, then I have even more. And, no, I'm not trying to get into a competitive thing here with you but just trying to reassure that you that you are not the only one with a lot of triggers and that I wouldn't find it helpful at all to be told that I have a lot of triggers. But that's just me.

My T has actually turned himself into a gumby doll trying to avoid all my triggers just to keep me in therapy. I am eternally grateful. Maybe someday I won't have as many but it's where I am at right now.

Hope you can find someone nice to work with if you haven't already. Don't give up looking because there is someone nice out there who can help you and give you what you need and would be a little more willing to be sensitive to you.

xoxoxox

Liese

(((NUMBER9))))

I know that this was not the original intent of your thread but it is along the entitlement/deserve line and hope you don't mind me going off in a different direction here for a moment.

quote:

I have noticed that it is common to objectify "shadow" traits, and to assume that these traits are always about "someone else".

You've hit on something that I've been thinking a lot about lately and noticed and not only in others but myself as well.

It's probably human nature to try to disown the more negative traits within ourselves and that might come more naturally to some people than others. We are all familiar with examples from history when leaders have attempted to "rid" their countries of some kind of evil that they believe will be the cure for all their problems. If only we could push this back and keep it here it this little corner, the world will be a better place.


What I keep coming back to, however, is that we are all dependent on each other. None of us here could be born by themselves. We couldn't have raised ourselves as infants. We were terribly and horribly dependent on others to bring us into existence and for our existence when we were young.

Dependence being an indisputable and unavoidable part of our human existence, at least for now, I can't help but wonder is if the definition of smart is dependent on the definition of stupid. And if the definition of good is dependent on the definition of bad. And the definition of more dependent upon the definition of less.

If we got rid of the bell curve and everyone had the same IQ for instance, would we be able to say that this one is entitled to make more money than that one?

If the ones who are smarter ARE then dependent upon the ones who aren't as smart to make "more" money or if the ones who are smarter are even just "entitled" to be smarter because there are less intelligent people in the world, isn't their status, then, dependent upon the others status?

I'm trying to bring it back to the original premise that we all try to push away the negative and claim the positive. If we were successful in doing so, however, we'd lose all of that structure that our differences provides us. And gone would be any concept of entitlement and we would all be deserving of the same stuff.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say except that I do wish, I am guessing along with you, that the negative would be more acceptable in general because of the problems I see with trying to push it all to one side as someone else's problem.

Because it just doesn't seem to be possible to eradicate the bad unless we eradicate the good as well. It seems to me that it would be helpful if societies in general would acknowledge that we are all the sum of each other as opposed to the sum of our individual selves.

I guess the older I get, the more I believe that we are interconnected even if we want to believe otherwise. Including me because, trust me, if I could have survived by myself, I would have found a way to do that by now.

Edited to add that I must find something else to think about.

Oh, I really can't control myself today. I had another thought, which of course, I just had to share.

In my FOO, for instance, I would probably be identified as the unhappy one, the one with the negative emotions.

But what I was, really, was a container for everyone's negative emotions that the others didn't want to deal with. And so, on the surface, it only looked like I was the negative one. The reality is that we were all interconnected and their "happiness" wouldn't have survived without my "unhappiness" and was in fact, dependent upon my "unhappiness."

And by logical extension is how I arrived at my thoughts in the previous post.

My T has just informed me that I'm deeper than most women. Just a fact I have to accept about myself and have to learn how to manage. Double-edged sword kind of thing. I asked him if I was deeper than most men as well and his answer was, "What? Men aren't deep." LOL!

So, I'm pretty alone on my little island. If you can't relate to what I'm saying, no offense taken. But if you get it, let me know!!

.

s

This is GREAT! I love it!

I am fried right now, but I'm so grateful for the responses.

Liese: I also enjoy swimming in the deep end of the pool!

I want to elaborate on what you said, but there is quite a bit of eastern/daoist philosophy woven into your thread. Too much "yang" cannot sustain itself, it eventually turns into "yin", and vice versa. Dark eventually has to turn into light, and Light, taken to its extreme, turns into dark.

There is an an interdependence between opposite poles. Relativity.

Real life examples: What we perceive as a person's good traits, are later the things that drive us crazy about them. A zealot fights for what he perceives as "the truth" or "the greater good" ...destroys the lives of innocent people. Hitting rock bottom in life, and finding out that there is no place to go but up. The interdependence and natural "balancing out" of a family dynamic, as you pointed out. Everything has a context, nothing exists in a vacuum.

I'm trying to remember more, I'm sure more will come to me! Do let me know if I got it, or missed the mark. All good.

PS: Now HOW could I possibly be accused of black and white thinking when I contemplate such things?

Keep it rolling! Good stuff here!

Muff: I do get it, I do have days like this. Acknowledging... !

BB: I did not forget about you... no worries!! Thanks for being here!

f