What if it's not wrong that you asked her, and not wrong that she said no, and also not wrong that you feel hurt?

I would feel hurt too, but she must have her reasons for not wanting to go, and it would be worse for your relationship in the end if she went unwillingly I think.

hic... I think you were very brave to invite her and to explain about therapy. It's nice that you didn't feel threatened with her meeting your T. I could never have had that level of comfort with my mother. I could never imagine bringing her into therapy with me, even for a light conversation.

In your post you say that after talking with your brother you "believe" that he thought it was wrong and selfish. Did he actually say that or are you projecting stuff onto him that is not there? I just wanted you to think about that part.

I do not think you were selfish and how would you know this was out of your mom's comfort zone unless you asked her? I do not know your relationship with your mom but I think it was a very inclusive thing to do.

TN

(((HIC)))

Hic have you perhaps thought of it like this.....

Your mother may feel that you going to therapy is a reflection that you can't go to her to talk about your problems, and so it may feel like a failure on her part? She may be thinking that the two of you have a relationship that you can discuss all sorts of things, so why do you need to pay someone else to listen to your problems when she is right there for you, and she wants to be there for you.

[I read your other post re Mothers and it seems you have a close relationship. It may not be perfect, but then no relationship ever is, and that bickering - its all part of a healthy family life. The fact that you feel comfortable enough to not have to agree yet not bare any grudges. You may have originated from her genes, but you were not born a clone, you were born an individual with a mind of your own, and you can be thankful that she has directed you along the way, but not suffocated you. You are HIC and I think from what you wrote she loves you dearly]

The point is I think she may be hurt that you never told her you had problems before, and now you ask her to meet your T, so in other words you are more comfortable going to a stranger than your own mother. As a mother myself who always feels as if I am there for my children to be able to talk to me, there would be an underlying hurt on my part if my child told me that they were going to therapy, even if I didn't admit it or mention it to them. In fact the pride within myself would almost certainly ensure that I didn't mention it. I would see it as a failure on my part even if in reality it was unintentional. I would be questioning why my child didn't feel comfortable enough speaking to me and I would be running through all the things I could possibly have done better.

That is just my thoughts anyway.



B2W

BLT,

Hmm, I'm not sure I care for that rendition of events very much. I want my mother to be wrong. :P But I see what you are saying about it being bad for our relationship if she were to go unwillingly. I just wish she would be willing.

TN,
Thanks, I did mean it be an inclusive gesture. I knew it would be pushing Mom's comfort zone, because the mental health industry is something she is highly skeptical of, but I wanted her to want to push past that for me, just in this small way. Re my brother, I suppose I am projecting a bit. I'm glad you pointed that out. . .

B2W,
Yes, for a long time I put off going to therapy because I thought it would hurt my mom if she knew. And over the past year I've had lots of recurring guilt feelings about it, thinking she would feel it as a betrayal, and maybe it was a betrayal, etc. I think finally having individuated to the point of seeing T as something other than a threat to my relationship with Mom, and being able to want to introduce them, well I was just so excited my initial worry of hurting her feelings faded to the background.

You said you would be hurt if one of your children ended up in therapy instead of talking to you about their problems. Do you think that you would refuse to meet their therapist because of that, even if they wanted you to? I am just curious.

(((((HELD))))))

I too think it was incredibly brave of you to bring it up to your Mom and ask her to come. I've been in therapy for almost 5 years now and I still have not told my mother that I go, much less invited her to a session. My mother has no faith in the profession either. She won't even consult with anyone re: my brother's problems - which are huge.

I would feel hurt too if I asked my Mom and she said no, especially considering how vulnerable you felt telling her that you were in therapy in the first place. But what came to mind for me was, why did she say no? I couldn't help but wonder if she had trauma in her life that she doesn't want to get into. Or maybe she didn't understand that she want the two most important women in your life to meet each other and she thought instead that you were bringing her there to work on your relationship? I wondered if the dynamic between the two of you changed, how it would change between she and your Dad. Maybe she just felt threatened in some way.

Can you talk more to her about why she doesn't want to go? Not necessarily to change her mind but to get a better idea for yourself of why she said no?

As for my children being in therapy, I think I'm half expecting it. I think I screwed up all their attachment styles. I would be very open myself to meeting with one of my children's therapists. I would want to do everything within my power to help in any way I could. So yes, I can see why it hurt so much.

HIC,
It's ok to accept your feelings and then choose if and when you act on them. It's ok for you to have your feelings and not have that say anything about your mother.

FWIW, both of my daughters have been to therapy. I don't want to say that I didn't have some struggles with it but that was because of my own fears about becoming like my parents. They were my feelings so I dealt with them with my own support structure including my therapist. However it was also affirming. My kids have known that I have been in therapy and it's not something I am ashamed of, frankly I think it's takes a lot of courage and strength to face ourselves and our pain. And my children see therapy as an effective way to deal with their problems. And I understand there are some things my children would not wish to talk to me about just as I preserve my own privacy. I'm their mom not their therapist and those are different roles.

As far as going with them, I have told them their whole life and told them again when they started therapy that if they wanted me to go with the at any point I was more than willing. That I understood that not only was I human but with such significant issues in my own life there might be some things they would be hurt or angry about and I want to be open to hearing about that. It's a legacy from my parents getting so much wrong, but when it comes to my kids I want to be able to hear anything they need to say. I may not agree with everything they say, but I need to be willing to hear and understand.

I'm sorry that your Mom's choice was painful for you.

AG

(((((HELD))))

I also can't help but wonder if she has been suppressing her own anger at the way she has *chosen* to live her life. And that it's a can of worms that she doesn't want to open up?

To answer your question HIC

quote:

You said you would be hurt if one of your children ended up in therapy instead of talking to you about their problems. Do you think that you would refuse to meet their therapist because of that, even if they wanted you to? I am just curious.

No, I don't think I would refuse to meet the T, but I do think I would be apprehensive as to the T perhaps turning my child's need for therapy into a presumption that I would then benefit from therapy and that they in turn would benefit from my therapy. I think I could possibly imagine it along the lines of..... if you want to help your child we will need to work with you as well kind of thing??? The big picture in other words. It may not be like that. It is however a thought that would cross my mind though, and if your mother has never been to therapy there is no telling what her expectations would be. I do think an open discussion with her (not heated) where she is able to disclose her reasons for refusal would be beneficial to both of you. You should not however have the expectation that you are right and she is wrong. It should simply take place as a means of understanding. She may change her mind. She may not, but either way I think she still loves you and that is what really counts.

B2W

(((Liese)))

Thanks for understanding. We've had two longish talks about this. I've tried to coax her into going by saying everything I could think of to assuage whatever concerns or fears she might be likely to have, and by intimating that it is important to me, without stressing that so much that it moved into manipulation. At least that's what I was trying for. I've explained all the things you mentioned. She's just refusing. Says that she thinks it might be awkward, she has no curiosity about it, she's not sure how she feels about therapy, and my *dad* said there would be no point to it. That's what really bugs me. The fact that I want her to go and asked her to (I almost never actually ask my mother to do anything for me) does not mean there is a point. But my dad telling her there is no point, well, that means there isn't one. Case closed.

I do think she has a lot of suppressed anger and pain. People blame her for things and she blames herself. She'll sing my dad's praises to the skies but it's never seemed to me that they have a particularly nurturing relationship. I don't think she's known enough genuinely caring people. I was pretty sure hearing I was in therapy would make her feel bad, but I thought how awesome it would be if I could make her feel good about it, by including her in a session or two, being generous with my T, and showing her how we could all have a fun and nice chat together. Showing her there is no ill will or blaming going on. Maybe it was naive of me to think this could work. Actually T did not think telling mom about therapy was such a good idea. . .

(((AG))) ((B2W))

I think it is awesome that you would be willing to go to therapy with your kids. Of course we are all pro-therapy around here (er, on good days that is, lol) and my mom isn't, so I need to keep that distinction in mind. But it was helpful and interesting for me to read some other perspectives on this. Thank you for sharing.

((((HELD))))

quote:

Maybe it was naive of me to think this could work.

Awwww, at least you tried. I know it hurts but you put it out there. Why did T think telling her wouldn't be a good idea? Because T had a hunch she wouldn't be supportive? Now that your Mom knows about it, could it turn into a source of guilt for you and/or a power struggle with her?

I will never tell my Mom because, oh, gosh, I can't tell you exactly why but it just falls into this huge pit of hurt from all the other times she has invalidated my experiences, from telling me that people who aren't my friends were my friends and telling me my brother did not beat me up. Therapy is so important to me. The only time I've felt good about myself is when I've *emotionally* moved away from my family and was in therapy. I can't take the chance anymore to let my mother invalidate all the good things that therapy has done for me. I guess I'm not strong enough yet. But I believe in what it has done for me. And that's the most important thing. I can also see now, though, how incredibly egocentric my Mom is and that she can hardly ever see anything from anyone else's point of view.

I'm sorry that your Dad's opinion carries more weight than yours. It sounds like she might have her own dependency needs and it's more important for her, although she might not know why, not to rock the boat with your Dad.

((((((HELD))))))

quote:

Why did T think telling her wouldn't be a good idea?

Well, T takes a much dimmer view of my relationship with Mom than I do. Like I've described in your thread on mothers, there is a lot of affection and companionability between us. We have a strong connection with many positive aspects. This will survive no matter what, I think. I hope. On an emotional level, though, she has consistently been by turns dismissive, invasive, controlling, invalidating, and distorting. She likes to tell me how to feel and to interpret my experiences for me, and some of her interpretations are really off base. I do believe that she loves me very much, but I have a need (or at least a strong want) for a level of caring validation and genuine acceptance from her that I'm not getting. So rather than give up in despair, I try to create situations that will *make* her give me those things. This situation is a case in point. I often end up hurt and frustrated and then go running back to T to explain it all. She's been more direct and blunt with me on this topic than any other, because she thinks I need to give up and move on.

T: How long are you going to keep banging your head against the same brick wall?
Me: All I want is a little validation and acceptance from my mother! Is that so much to ask?
T: No, it isn't too much to ask, and it would be great if you could get those things, but when have you ever gotten them from her?
Me: Oh. . . I'm sure I must have at some point or other.

And so round we go. Another time she told me,

T: I think you've got to know on some level it isn't good for you to keep having these conversations with your mother.
Me: You don't think so?
T: No, I don't. I think it is highly unlikely that you are ever going to find what you are looking for or that she is ever going to respond in the way that you want.

I was hoping to prove her wrong. Instead life seems to be confirming her impression that the quest I am on is futile. Maybe eventually this will get through my skull and I'll simply accept Mom as she is and move on.

(I suspect I am showing myself to be rather dense, immature, and perhaps bratty in my musings here. Well, so be it if so. I have to work with the real me rather than a false one if I'm to get anywhere, right?)

((((HELD))))

If it was anyone else but a close member of your family, you'd be able to see it. But attachment bonds blind us to things that others can see so I'm not so sure you are dense. It's just a bad habit. If it makes you feel any better, I'm a bit older than you and I was stuck in that cycle for a long time.

quote:

On an emotional level, though, she has consistently been by turns dismissive, invasive, controlling, invalidating, and distorting. She likes to tell me how to feel and to interpret my experiences for me, and some of her interpretations are really off base.

Do we have the same mother? It sounds like she sees you as an extension of herself. From the way you describe her, it sounds as though she expects you to be able to enter her world, to actually inhabit it, but refuses to enter your world?

As for getting some perspective on it all, and I'm making huge leaps here that my Mom is similar to yours in some way, it helped me to understand more about mirror/twinship transference. My Mom can't, just doesn't have the ability to, see things from anyone else's point of view. So I don't think she intentionally tried to destroy me. It's just that she needed to see things a certain way in order to survive. The fact that I was a separate human being was threatening to her.

Was your Mom an only child? Mine was.

Well HIC, all I can say is that bashing your head into a wall hoping your parent will magically change...is something almost all of us have done at one time or another.

Giving up that fight is HARD. But for me at least, things have been better on the other side. Not that I never slide back into head-bashing, but at least I can be realistic most of the time.