Wynne,
Love CS Lewis, his book "The Four Loves" was really awesome.

I'm not sure of other people but if I had to describe my Ts love for me it would definitely be an agape or caritas love. That kind of love thinks nothing of oneself but strives only for the good of the beloved. Since the theraputic relationship is one in which only the clients needs are considered and the therapist actively works to keep their needs out of it, this always seemed the best fit. In many ways, I think they strive to keep "storge" love out of it, as it might cloud their ability to see you clearly and be the most help. Seriously interesting question!

AG

Hmmmm... this is interesting. I don't think I've ever made such distinctions.

And when I think about it I don't want my T (and most especially my son's former T) to feel agape love towards me. I'm not comfortable with charity towards me, and I don't want anyone to love me out of "goodwill," except maybe God. I makes me uncomfortable to be thinking that someone is thinking only of me. It seems important that I give something back in the relationship.

I think that's why I was so uncomfortable with the relationship with my son's former T. I wanted to be friends with her, to have a mutual relationship. Even though she's a T, I felt guilty laying my problems on her all the time.

It may all go back to me not wanting anyone to take care of me. I learned early on that it wasn't a good thing to have someone else take care of me. This is where my husband and I run into problems. He wants to take care of me (not that he can in many ways, but he wants to). I don't want him to, it makes me incredibly uncomfortable if I think someone else has to take care of me. He thinks it means I don't love him or trust him enough.

With my current T, I'm not feeling any type of love. I like her, respect her opinion, and trust her, but there doesn't seem to be that type of connection. I'm not sure if she has any feelings towards me... I can't tell that with anyone.

I can see where agape love would be the best kind of love for a T to have towards their client.

quote:

In many ways, I think they strive to keep "storge" love out of it, as it might cloud their ability to see you clearly and be the most help.

My son's former T told me she had a hard time with my son's recent, pretty severe issues. She said she still sees him as this sweet little boy (albeit with anger issues and other difficulties) she fell in love with two years ago, and had a hard time knowing exactly how to deal with this. Therapy wasn't very effective because first, he wouldn't talk to her about it, and second, she was having a hard time herself. That's when she referred him to the program that specializes his particular issues. It must be extra hard, being a child therapist, because of situations like this.

OW

I'm also uncomfortable with most of the english translations of agape. I like "caritas" best, with agape a bit second and goodwill a distant third. S'why I have a hard time thinking about it, I think.

But I definitely think it might capture what Ts go for - I even think it might have something to do with the "unconditional personal regard" stuff from person-centered counseling - like talked about here

*shrug* I was just thinkin'. S'hard.

Wynne

Very interesting that you would bring this up. This is something that I have been struggling with for quite some time. The reason is because I am on both sides of this. And, experiencing one side has not helped my emotions on the other side. I have been a teacher for more years than I care to say. I have tried to put my relationship with my T into that perspective to justify her boundries with me. It doesn't always help.

With my students and their parents, because they come to me as a package, there is definitely storage and carnitas. Since my students are young, the boundries are are a little less stringent. Many of them relate me to "Mom." The parents on the other hand are different. Some of them want to become my BFF and professionally, that is difficult and not in the best interest of the child.

As the relationship with our T's is all about the client, so the relationship for me professionally is all about the child.

So here is the problem for me. Intellectually I know all this, but it does nothing to change the feelings of want and longing that I have for my T. She has explained to me very carefully how different our relationship would be if we were friends. How I wouldn't be able to be as honest and open with her and really, neither would she. But I would hope that there is some level of love in there. And maybe it is just storage. I love my students and feel deep compassion for (most of ) their parents, but it is not the same level of love that I feel for my family and friends.

I don't know if this makes any sense to any of you, and it definitely doesn't answer the question, but it helps me to really put some thought into this.

Thanks Wynne,

PL

Interesting topic. As I understand the true translation of the greek word agape literally means "love based on principle" rather than affection or pesonal attachment as denoted by the other forms of love. James Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, in its Greek dictionary (1890, pp. 75, 76), remarks under "a‧ga‧pa′o (or agape) is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety." (Bold Mine) I think this is the definition (based on strong principles or as AG said "That kind of love thinks nothing of oneself but strives only for the good of the beloved.") that describes best a therapists love and reaches far _deeper_ than charity and goodwill when applied in it's strongest measure.

The greatest sense of agape represents a self sacrificing kind of love such as when JC laid down his life for sinful mankind. The latin caritas may or may not be an exact translation of the greek agape, but it usually denotes church charity and goodwill that while good in it's own rights are incomparable to the lengths of the truest agape.

I also agree with Wynne that as clients we often feel the whole gamut of love.

Hmm...I am beginning to wonder if that made any sense... So let me translate:

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH

Oh, JM, it makes much more sense now!

OW

Sorry guys - you lost me at "love..."

I am really confused by that word, don't know what it means, have recently tried to avoid it like the plague and honestly have have a hard time talking about it without sounding like a really, really bad cliche which just makes me cringe. This of course has a lot to do with being in marriage counseling and trying to determine and be honest about whether or not I think I can stay with my H and not have a nervous breakdown.

I don't think agape fits what love my T has for me or I for her. I guess the level of self-sacrifice that agape represents to me couldn't have so many limitations as the therapeutic relationship does.

quote:

I guess the level of self-sacrifice that agape represents to me couldn't have so many limitations as the therapeutic relationship does.

Ah, but I think it does. The total self sacrificing of their own needs for the encompassing of our needs seems to fit what I think of in the therapeutic arena. The limitations that exist are for highly principled reasons and ideals as well as for the protection of the beloved. But each is entitled to their opinion. I know it's not a debate nor do I wish to treat it like one. I am certainly not shooting down your ideas, River. I hope it doesn't come off that way either.
JM

Here are three more to consider...these seem to be the less positive types. But I find them interesting in that they are actually types of love.


Ludus is a game-playing or uncommitted love. Lying is part of the game. A person who pursues ludic love may have many conquests but remains uncommitted.

Pragma is a pragmatic, practical, mutually beneficial relationship. It may be somewhat unromantic. A person who leans toward this type of relationship may look for a partner at work or where the person is spending time. Sex is likely to be seen as a technical matter needed for producing children, if they are desired.

Mania is an obsessive or possessive love, jealous and extreme. A person in love this way is likely to do something crazy or silly, such as stalking. The movie Fatal Attraction was about this type.

quote:

But I find them interesting in that they are actually types of love

sd, those don't sound like love to me at all - it doesn't seem to involve a real connection between people!

the way i 'see' it, real love is more the connection you experience with someone. the way you feel, bath in someone else's 'flavour' and let somebody else close to yours. that of course can be on a scale from little to lots. sometimes i feel another person's flavour (sorry no other word i can think of to describe what i mean) and i don't like to be connected at all. i have a neighbour like that who's flavour i just find revolting! but he's noisy bugger so upsets me frequently.

sex can or can't come in there at some point in time and must be amazimg when you connect with another person on that deep open level. for me tho i lose trust when i feel someone's physical interest. so i haven't experienced anything deep in that department. or any other really.

but anyway, for me, the whole idea of love involves a measure of 'correctness' wanting what's right for all parties involved. otherwise i think i would feel some kind of fantasy going on, rather than something real.

how t's figure in here i haven't a clue.

There's a really good book out (where I got my profile quote) by Marianne Williamson titled, "A Return to Love." She defines love, in the introduction, as "...what we are born with. Fear is what we have learned [in this life]. The spiritual journey is the relinquishment -- the unlearning -- of fear and the acceptance of love in our hearts. Love is the essential existential fact. It is our ultimate reality and our purpose here on earth."