Hi SG,
I've read about the love-hate flip-flop and I've never really experienced it the way I've read about it. I don't so much hate my T as worry that he isn't the person I thought he was. I have definitely experienced getting very angry and/or upset with him on numerous occasions when he didn't do anything wrong.

The first time I ever told him I was angry at him was because he canceled a couples appt at the last minute (8:30 AM for a 5:30 PM) and I just assumed that it was some kind of family emergency. It just so happened (for a totally unrelated reason) I was in the parking lot of his office during our canceled appt time and it was evident from cars in the parking lot (very few) and people going in and out that he had given our appt to someone else. I was really angry but really scared. My next appt with him, I told him that I had gotten angry but couldn't say anything else. He spent 45 minutes dragging it out of me. I mean the man worked really hard to get me to yell at him. Anger was a very scary emotion for me because it had been so mishandled in my family. We worked alot on my anger and expressing it to him so I could experience that anger didn't end the relationship. Many times the anger was pretty irrational. He went on vacation last summer and we spent one session dealing we me feeling angry about it and another session about me feeling abandoned. And then there was the time I sent him an email, didn't hear back for three days and then when I called told me he couldn't remember whether he had read it. I was so mad I pretty much hung up on him. Then called back an hour later in total meltdown that the relationship was over or had never been real. Through it all, whether the anger was justified or as in most cases, misplaced because something from my past got triggered, my T was incredibly non-defensive and welcoming of my emotions and always helped me to express them, sort through them and make sense of them. So I've brought a lot of "negative" emotions into therapy. Part of my healing has been learning to express them and realize that like other emotions, a good relationship can also tolerate things like anger. One of my favorite memories was the first time I told my T I wanted to throw something at him!

HB mentioned in another thread that 90% of therapy was discussing the relationship with the T. That sounds a little low to me. What I'm really trying to say is that it always started with me just telling him how I felt no matter how irrational or divorced from reality it was then as he stayed with me and was willing to examine my feelings while also giving me feedback about what was really going on with him, it allowed me to see how I behaved and get to the root of some of my beliefs and why I had believed them.

So you're feelings about your T will probably be all over the map, but your responsibility is to bring them ALL into the room. Your Ts responsibility is to not take them personally and help you to understand them. Its gonzo confusing especially in the beginning but its how we learn so much about ourselves and that all of us, including all our feelings, good and bad, is acceptable in a relationship. That we do not need to hide who we are or how we feel. It's really incredible when that finally starts sinking in.

It also helps us to learn to "de-embed" from our feelings. Being able to recognize that you feel like he's a "hateful" person but then compare that against what you know of your T allows you to see how your feelings can feel like reality, and the truth when sometimes they're not an accurate reflection of what's going on but a filter through which you're interpreting things. I hope some of that made some sense. Dealing with this is so integral to the process that its hard to describe.

Oh, and one other thing, I definitely experienced turning the feelings on myself, which is what I learned to do as a child to keep my parents, especially my father "good." Then I learned to turn my anger on my T. Then I finally learned to place my anger where it belonged, on my father. I still remember so clearly the first time I was talking about getting angry and connected it with something my father had done. My T told me it was the first time I had place the anger directly where it belonged without stopping first at me, then him. If you think about it, it's about safety. At first it only felt safe to be angry at myself, then as my T welcomed and understood my anger it got safe to be angry with him and finally I learned not to be terrified of my anger and could actually direct it to its source.

AG

Hi SG... first I wanted to say hi and welcome because I don't think we have chatted yet. I haven't been around lately because I've been doing some seriously heavy therapy and had no energy to post. I did want to say that i've been reading your posts and I can see that you are working very hard in your therapy and that you have good insight.

I have a very good ability to assign hateful thoughts to my T. He commented just today how good I am at deciding for him what he is thinking . Today I told him that after our last session where I revealed some painful things that he now does not want to speak to me and has totally changed his feelings towards me and the he'd rather not have to deal with all of my issues. He smiles at me and reassures me that is not how he feels and now that we are talking do I still feel the same way? Of course I don't because he is totally accepting of me and kind and gentle and I know I'm safe with him.

I also find that I think bad thoughts about him when I need to push him away from me. When he is getting too close or I have just revealed something I find shameful I find a reason to be mad at him because he had done SOMETHING wrong. I need to distance myself so I look for reasons.

I also experience negative transference with him when he triggers something that goes back to my childhood abuse. When I calm down enough to really analyze what happened I realize that he evokes something in me from way back. Perhaps I feel he is not giving me attention like when I tried to get my mom's attention. Or he may say something and I twist it around to sound like my parents. Then I get angry at him instead of being angry with the past.

I do want to mention here that for people with disorganized attachment or attachment injury it is very typical to want to run away from your therapist while at the same time wanting to be close to him. And when you feel the need to run you will find all types of creative reasons as to why he is dangerous and untrustworthy and you feel the urge to flee from him.

That whole aspect is a long story but you can check out some of AG's great posts on attachment and her review of the book, A General Theory of Love for better understanding in this area.

Hope this helps.

TN

Your responses help a TON...thanks, HB, AG and True North! I'll respond more later, but I've GOT to get some sleep *yawn* it's late!

SG

p.s. No hurry, HB...I didn't feel "forgotten"!

Okay, folks, this is a huge post, processing what you said. So I’ll start out by saying THANK YOU for your responses. It is so encouraging and helps so much to sort out what is going on, so I have some hope of discussing this with my T and making some sense. I never would have stayed in therapy to this point without you. Thank you!!!

AG,

quote:

I don't so much hate my T as worry that he isn't the person I thought he was.

Thank you, AG! This is what I was trying to say. You said it perfectly. But then I go even further and imagine the creep he might actually be. And I get quite detailed about it.

quote:

So you're feelings about your T will probably be all over the map, but your responsibility is to bring them ALL into the room.

I’ve been telling him about the feelings…but I’m more afraid to tell him the thoughts that stem from those feelings. I am afraid he will take it personally, or as an accusation, because they’re so irrational and mean.

quote:

Being able to recognize that you feel like he's a "hateful" person but then compare that against what you know of your T allows you to see how your feelings can feel like reality, and the truth when sometimes they're not an accurate reflection of what's going on but a filter through which you're interpreting things.

The way I’m understanding what you said, “filter” is just another word for “transference”, right? I’ve got a pretty mean “filter”. It makes sense that it might be my own mom's meanness toward me, transferring to my therapist, but it still feels like it's part of me...like I'm just a mean-spirited person who wants to think the worst of people.

At the same time, I really do adore my T. And it's not just because he gives me undivided attention in sessions, although that feels pretty wonderful. He also has a very lovable, playful, genuine spirit. He's funny, intelligent, articulate, sexy...I want to be like him when I grow up.

Will that ever happen? Seriously, here is one of my main therapy goals: I would like to grow up before I die.

quote:

At first it only felt safe to be angry at myself, then as my T welcomed and understood my anger it got safe to be angry with him and finally I learned not to be terrified of my anger and could actually direct it to its source.

Wow, thanks! I really recognize that first part: it’s only safe to be angry at myself. But almost 40 years of this…that anger gets pretty heavy. The rest of what you said gives me hope that we’re heading in the right direction.

TN,

Thanks for the welcome! It's good to "meet" you. I've read many of your posts too and see so much strength and courage in you.

quote:

Today I told him that after our last session where I revealed some painful things that he now does not want to speak to me and has totally changed his feelings towards me and the he'd rather not have to deal with all of my issues.

This is a pretty regular one for me too, although it happens between sessions. Seems like I can’t really sort out my reactions while I’m right there in front of him.

quote:

I also find that I think bad thoughts about him when I need to push him away from me. When he is getting too close or I have just revealed something I find shameful I find a reason to be mad at him because he had done SOMETHING wrong. I need to distance myself so I look for reasons.

Yes! Thank you, this sounds more right. I look for reasons to push him away. I just have a really good imagination for building up big stories with very little information.

A good example is something that came up a few sessions ago. I was trying to tell him about my feelings for him. At one point I told him that I like it when he tells me things about himself, and I’ve wished many times I could ask him personal questions, but I don’t, because I know I’m not “supposed to.”

So I said I sometimes come up with my own explanations. He asked me what some of them were. This was a great question because it brought out one of the “monsters” I thought he might be. I had taken a few things he had said, and a few observations of my own, and built up this monster: He had been hurt in the past by a girlfriend in college who cheated on him, so when he met me and my husband, and realized that I’d had a fantasy emotional “affair”, it triggered unresolved anger and a desire for revenge in him. This meant that 1) he felt sick when he saw my name on his schedule, and 2) he was setting me up to get attached to him so he could hurt me as a way of getting back at his girlfriend.

He seemed a little overwhelmed at first…he remarked that this was a very detailed story. But then he used this to teach me how to ask questions when something he says triggers fear in me. So I eventually asked if there was any truth to the conclusions I had drawn. His response negated the conclusions: he said he never dated a girl with that name, never had a girlfriend in college who cheated on him, and if he felt sick when he saw a patient’s name on his schedule, he would have to transfer them to another T because he wouldn’t be able to help them.

quote:

He smiles at me and reassures me that is not how he feels and now that we are talking do I still feel the same way? Of course I don't because he is totally accepting of me and kind and gentle and I know I'm safe with him.

This is how I felt immediately after the session I just described. He stayed with me, taught me how to ask the questions, and traced it back with me to fear of abandonment. I felt so happy, safe, and grateful after that session - if I could have hugged him, I would have.

But now…I’m making up another “monster.” I suppose I’ll have to tell him about this one too. It really ticks me off that I have to do this again. I’m back to worrying that I’m wearing him out, insulting him, turning casual remarks he makes in session against him.

I just want him to tell me straight out that he likes me and will never abandon me. But he won’t do that. I know this means he’s a good therapist, but…I want that gratification thang. (can you hear me whining and stamping my foot?)

quote:

And when you feel the need to run you will find all types of creative reasons as to why he is dangerous and untrustworthy and you feel the urge to flee from him.

So this is about “feeling a need to run” and finding “creative reasons” to do so.

Argh...I wish we could go back to weekly appointments. I want to talk to my T so badly right now about all of this. I'm really grateful for this board, and for you. I can't say that enough times.

I'd better stop here...is there a character limit to these posts? I've got to be pushing it.

Take care, everyone...thanks for listening and responding. You're the best.
SG

Again first off I have to say thanks SG and AG for sharing your thoughts.

While I don't think I have had hate feeling as such towards my T...he did mention to me a few sessions ago how he noticed I had been angry with him for a while. Part of me was shocked as I hadn't said anything along those lines to him and felt bad that he got this impression of me as I'm so crazy about him. But he was right. I was annoyed that he didn't save me and rescue me from the hurt and pain that I was feeling. I also felt like his holding back of telling me about the dependence that he had seen in me was him playing a "game" with me...that he was using a "trick" to get me to open up. I resented this...I felt foolish and pathetic. I totally get that this anger is not really toward him. i know it should be about my dad and others but I can't FEEL it towards him...place it at his door for the stuff he said and did that made me feel so hurt. The day my T revealed that he knew about the transference I left and felt like it was a huge Eureka moment. But I also felt so hurt, almost like a break-up, which I found extremely confusing.

On the other hand I love my T. I have erotic feelings for him all the time...even last night I was out with some friends and saw someone who looked like him and it made me feel strange....attracted and uneasy at the same time. It's such a contradiction cos on the one hand, in my fantasy land, I'd like to think he likes me, cares and is possibly attracted to me even if he can't do anything about it. On the other hand I feel like I don't trust him properly. That he thinks I overexaggerate, waste his time and that my revelations to him make me seem repulsive.

I was trying to put my finger on the erotic part of my transference the last day and I thought that maybe it had a link with how I feel when he gets angry. On a few occasions over my year of sessions he swore or seemed annoyed at some act that someone did to me that was mean or hurtful. These little emotions made me feel great..finally a guy who would stand up for me, care about him. I told him recently that I find it hard to believe him when he says he's not sick of me and thinks I'm courageous but yet when he called someone in my life a b**tard that I believed him. Almost like the anger was a real emotion whereas the rest was just words. I have been thinking that my erotic feelings run the same way...that sex is an expression to me of a real emotion..physical and that I can't trust the words so I think if he felt attracted to me and slept with me it would be real. I don't know if this is right or not... I think waaaay too much!!!

So, the shortened version being, I have felt some of the love hate flip flop and like you guys said...it's amazing the stuff that we "know" our T feels When in reality he or she might feel totally differently.

quote:

but I’m more afraid to tell him the thoughts that stem from those feelings. I am afraid he will take it personally, or as an accusation, because they’re so irrational and mean.

SG,
I know that can feel really weird and kind of scary, but that's the Ts job, not to take it personally. I can remember apologizing to my T for being so suspicious of him when he had never given me any reason to be, in fact, quite the opposite. He, very gently, kept telling me that he understood, based on my experiences, why I would be so suspicious and need so much reassurance, that he didn't take it personally.

There was one time (and trust me, I still flinch when I remember saying it) when I was talking to him about waiting for him to hurt me, that I KNEW this would end badly and I asked him "why are you any different from my father?" I mean, I compared my T with an incestuous pedophile, how's that for insulting? He very calmly looked at me and told me that there was a major difference. That my relationship with my father had been all about his needs but that my relationship with him (my T) was all about my needs. If I had not expressed that level of mistrust, I would never have experienced that profound truth, nor that deep a level of reassurance. This isn't a normal relationship, it's one in which its ok to express even the uncomfortable ugly stuff without needing to worry about hurting the other person. That's actually one of the most healing qualities of a theraputic relationship and why the boundaries are so important. It has to remain about your needs and that includes a T taking care of their own feelings and reactions and keeping them out of the room.

quote:

The way I’m understanding what you said, “filter” is just another word for “transference”, right? I’ve got a pretty mean “filter”...like I'm just a mean-spirited person who wants to think the worst of people.

I tend to shy away from the word transference except as a shorthand to indicate the intense reaction to and need for our Ts. My T isn't real fond of the term either and has really stressed the reality of my feelings, and how although they can lead us to the past, are real in the here and now, including my attraction to him.

So here's what I really mean by filter, and what I think my T means. We learn how relationships work and what to expect from them from the day we're born. I think you read General Theory of Love right? Our experiences lay down the template of how we think relationships work. So you're not a mean-spirited person, you didn't one day out of the blue decide to think badly of people. You were treated badly and so learned to expect it. It isn't something you choose, it was something you were taught.

Crazy Lady,
All the feelings you're struggling with including the erotic ones all sound very familiar to me. So does you trying to figure out what it all means on your own and driving yourself crazy. That's why its really important to go and talk to your T about all these feelings. His job is to listen to you and hear the things you're saying that you can't hear so he can help you sort through it, understand yourself and make sense of it. You really, really don't need to do this alone anymore. We can't know ourselves outside of relationship, humans need a connection and a reflection from another person to be able to know ourselves and that's what our therapist provides. And because the relationship is all about our needs (see response to SG above ) and they keep themselves out of it, they give us a clear reflection without any distortions from their needs or reactions.

AG

Hi AG,

Thanks for everything you said. I very much appreciate you sharing your experiences in therapy. I definitely have the feeling of “waiting for him to hurt me” and knowing that this will “end badly”. I admire you for being strong enough to stick with it and tell him about it. And I admire your T for handling it so well.

I haven’t talked much to my T yet about the legacy of incest in my family. There was overt incest in both my father and mother’s families of origin. My mother’s family also has some pretty deeply entrenched emotional incest. In our family, I don’t remember any overt incest, but there was definitely covert and emotional incest. (The emotional incest on my mom’s side continues today, although I’m breaking free from it - and being “punished” for doing so). And it was in the middle of all that when I had my first romantic/sexual relationship, my “first love” that I can’t seem to get over (running into him again recently is what got me started in therapy). So it makes sense that fear of being taken advantage of, humiliated, rejected, abandoned keep getting triggered.

But that is me intellectualizing again. It is so unbelievably frustrating to read everyone’s posts, and to read books like General Theory of Love, and “understand” and “agree”, to see myself…to be able to encourage others to keep going. But when it comes to taking those actions myself, it’s as if I’m standing on the edge of a cliff, trying to jump…and my feet suddenly feel like they’re made of lead, and no matter what I do, I can’t make myself do it.

You said the therapist’s job is to take care of their own feelings and reactions and keep them out of the room. But I keep obsessing about what they “really” are, and worrying that I’m going to push him over the edge. I am so unbelievably afraid of his rejection. My T seems to hold the boundaries okay, but he’s also very expressive and personable, so it’s easy to think I can detect what his feelings and reactions “really” are, and because I like him so much, I want so much to be a “good” patient and to do what I’m “supposed” to do. Is it possible to like your T “too” much, so that you just can’t move forward, even though they are keeping the boundaries?

Sometimes I think I need to be in therapy with a robot in order to move forward. With someone human, I “read into” things so much it paralyzes me. But it’s those triggers that I need to learn from, and a robot wouldn’t trigger me…arrrrrggggh. I really want to bolt right now.

I know that none of this is unique to my experience. Many on this board have described being here before. Taking action is what makes the difference, which means keep going to sessions, keep talking about it. I guess I just wanted to tell you all where I “really” am, despite “agreeing” and “understanding” intellectually with you. I know I need to get more real with my T. Maybe if I “get real” with you folks first, it will give me the courage to continue getting more “real” with my T. My next session is Tuesday. Thank you so much for being there.

SG

Dear Strummer Girl, Yes, I think it is possible to like your T too much, so that you just can't move forward, even though they are keeping the boundries. I think that is what is happening to me--I find myself trying to say all the "right' things and not really letting the real me show through--warts and all. This happened with my previous T, and I think I stopped growing when I realized that I idealized her. She kept good boundries, so it was not her fault. I told her that I never expected my heart to become involved. Her answer was, "some people idealize their therapists.
The best thing you can do, probably, is to own up to it and talk about how to show your true self (I am sure he can reaasure you..he will not think less of you) Once you get past that hurdle, you can try out some of these techniques. I am sure he thinks highly of you ..no worries that he will let you go.

I wish I could feel comfortable taking my own advise! Approval, approval, spproval! Thanks for listening, Luna

quote:

Originally posted by Lunabright:
I find myself trying to say all the "right' things and not really letting the real me show through--warts and all.

quote:

Originally posted by Lunabright:
I wish I could feel comfortable taking my own advise! Approval, approval, spproval!

Thanks so much for your encouragement, Lunabright...it helps. And welcome to the board!
SG

Hi again SG and hi to LunaBright.....

I've been reading your posts and think, "Gee, hang in there...this arena is where you work out these patterns that we learned as kids.."

I was also reading Shrinklady's reply to my Boundary question in the TherapyLingo part of this site and this is part of her reply that you might find fits into your conversation:

"Our emotional patterns get laid down via our connection with parents and later with peers. The brain requires similar conditions in order to unlearn or to develop new patterns.

In other words "wounded in connection, healed in connection."

So, sorry to say, doing therapy with a robot probably wouldn't work! (but I wished the same thing.....I think your comment is along the same line as my wish to take off to Gilligan's island to avoid real people)
K.

I definitely went through Love-hate flip-flop relationship with my counsellor.

As if we were like mother and daughter, teacher and student, BFF and the worst enemy etc…
It was pretty intense because we did all that in 4 months.
He did clearly mentioned to me about short term therapy rules for that centre. But he never introduced himself properly. He didn’t say he is a student, doing his practicum. If I’ve known that, I would have definitely said No thank you and walked away. Also he said that my problems don’t have to be too serious to get services from the center, I can always come back if I want to. Of course he didn’t say that I have to see different people, I thought to myself, oh, so even after 10 sessions, I guess I can still see him.
Which was my stupid assumption.

When I came home from the first session. I e-mailed to him right away about the next appointment and I thanked him for the session. He replied back to me and there was his full name with” MD” title.
So I didn’t think that he was a student. I found out that he was a student and doing his practicum at the centre when I tried to make another appointment with him only with short notice. He sounded quite bothered and he said this to me “ Well, I am not just doing this job, I am also a student and writing thesis right now” so I apologized and decided to wait. Then I told myself “OK, he is busy so I shouldn’t bother him too much”

I didn’t bother to ask him why he wrote MD after his name only on the first e-mail. First I didn’t want to embarrassed him and I thought it wasn’t a big deal since I was doing really well with him in the beginning. I was only impressed that he could help me that much and he was a still student.
Anyways, I know that I am writing whole bunch of things here and there. I am just taking this opportunities to vent. Basically to blame everything on him and I am the victim so my counsellor would feel very sorry from me and for himself too.
But his intention was to challenge me from the start. Yes, I learned so much from this experience.
I guess I am stronger but feel like I wasted 9 months of my life because my counsellor messed me up so much. AND I am still doing it…. Don’t you hate that???
You hate doing it but you can’t stop… that’s my addiction…
I should go to bed now. Tired…

I just found this thread today. I know it isn't that old, but it was still before I joined the forum. I am so increasingly overwhelmed with this love-hate battle towards my T in my mind that I don't think I can articulate it right now. But I just wanted to thank those who have posted their experiences on this thread because you have described it better than I ever could, and it helps knowing I am not the only one -- that maybe I am not going to disintegrate and maybe I am not becoming totally insanely mad... well, maybe we all are, but at least we're in it together!