(((cat))) sorry you're hurting

Hey Catalyst,

I have a fairly indulgent T. She almost never tells me no. I suppose I don't actually ask for a whole lot either. . . well, I do ask for extra sessions sometimes, or for the occasional reply to an email or phone call, or for her to read to me, or to change up the focus of how we are working and do things.

I think her flexibility has made me feel more comfortable asking for things, more secure that if I do get a no it will be for a good reason other than personal rejection.

I have the impression she works similarly to the way your T1 does. . . she also describes herself as eclectic but primarily Rogerian, and she gives me lots of space for my therapy to be very self directed. Occasionally that's been frustrating when I've felt stuck or lost in the process, at other times when I've been more motivated or enthusiastic about working in a particular area I've appreciated the freedom. She's very adaptable.

I think if I had gotten a lot of "no's" early on I would have had a really hard time with it and likely dropped out-- delayed rebellion against a controlling family, y'know?

HTH. Good luck!

I barely ask T for anything, but I'm not sure that she's ever said no to me, either. I think I could possibly handle it a bit better now, but if my T had said no to me, even once, for a good portion of our work up until now, I'd be absolutely crushed and feel like I did something horribly wrong. I still would feel that way, actually. It's why I'm very careful about how much I ask for - because I'd "know" I did something wrong if I were told no..

I've also occasionally wondered if T is too indulgent with me, but I did decide that it's really only because I hardly ask her for anything. I just ask (albeit implicitly) that she be there each week, as she's able. I've never asked if I could call - she's offered many times that she's available if I need to call.

A few times over the past few years, I've asked for an extra session, and she's said yes. Other than that, I don't know that I've really ever asked for anything.

I have asked if I could borrow her pen on occasion..

I have wondered how I'd truly experience hearing her say no, but I don't know that I ever will if I don't push the boundary and prompt that sort of reply from her. And I think it would take a long time before I'd ever be ready to do so, and by then, she'll probably have retired (literally..I've probably got a year or less with her now).

Hang in there, Cat...I'm sorry you're hurting. If you want to provide details, you can certainly do so, but only if you feel safe enough.

Oh my goodness Red Tomato - you are so much like me.

I have discussed this issue with T and said that I would rather die wondering versus whether or not to ask a question of her and be told No.

As she reminds me - how many times has she said no to me???

I have asked T or we have discussed and she has suggested many, many things - even non-therapy things and my T has always said yes. She is wanting me to ask for me and to feel comfortable about asking, but yes - I think I would go without, deny myself, punish myself - do anything rather than being told No.

I keep thinking that one of these days I will ask her something and she will say No. i believe I will really fall apart when that happens.

Somedays

Ugh... you guys what I have to say about this is going to sound really screwed up, but first let me reply.

((cd)) thank you so much

((HIC)) my t (t2) is particularly indulgent. i don't ask for too much either. my P said she has insane boundaries the other day (it was in context to me talking about mine) and i was like.. i feel like she's just fine. I'm so interested that you find her yes makes when she means a no that she means it - I'm the opposite for some reason. T1 is eclectic Rogerian haha (for the most part)! But she has Nos. I didn't get Nos early on, but it's because I was in control of the Nos if that even makes sense. Thanks for your perspective on this it's really cool because we're in the same type of directionless therapy and feel similar and different. Very helpful, thank you!

((kashley)) I know you do have so much trouble asking your T for things (you do deserve things, just for the record). I understand feeling the fear of being in trouble to hear no. I constantly wonder if T2 is indulgent with me T1 I feel her boundaries. It's very scary to hear no, and I have many times only asked for things based on imaging a no and being okay with it... so I go in to the question expecting no. Pessimism! Oh honey have you ASKED her about when she is retiring? I know my T recently went to part time and I'm in a panic.

((RT)) You don't have to expand but I'm wondering are you saying denial/withholding on your part or Ts?

((Somedays)) Wow I can imagine it would be hard to hold in something you want but would rather wonder. I did that with touch and T1. I think it can help us to learn how to ask for things when we are told yes, or at least able to negotiate. I'm glad she helps you find areas in your life to ask for things... have you found that successful? The shame of getting a no can sometimes be so powerful. It will be okay when/if you hear a no to fall apart, and hurt... I mean, I don't want that for you... but going through that will be healing (don't throw rocks at me!!) or at least I hope it would be.

Here is a bit of an expansion on the situation:

From T1 I have heard no, or have been blocked, or corrected and challenged. At the start of our relationship I had the strict boundaries. She said it was very unexpected. Now I've stopped being so closed and as I change my boundaries will ask for things - she rarely says no. Hearing no makes me feel yes is true. She will remind me that she takes care of herself, so what she offers she offers freely.

With T2 I had a major rupture in November which was a very low blow, and it was her personal life frustrations being dumped on me (she has said). Because it is so sensitive in nature to my attachment issues and view of myself is painful. We're doing attachment work both to heal the bond we have, and to heal me the disorganized attachment in general.

The problem is, she won't say no. She never has, she also hasn't given me boundaries on contact - I can call whenever and if she can answer she says she will, I can write and if I indicate I don't want a reply she won't but always replies otherwise. There is not a thing in the world she hasn't given me, or will suggest, or will work with. When I give her examples of things I do with T1 (in context, to explain something) she will think it is a subtle way to ask for those things.. so she will do them and then I have to explain to her, I wasn't asking for that... thank you though, but I will ask directly for what I want from you.

Yesterday I mentioned something horrifically sensitive about letter writing and she changed something in her e-mail that was shocking. Literally, shocking. What I asked from her was if she could approach me more because I was thinking that may help her feel safer because my primary issue is people coming to me and secondary is me coming to them. I said I'm not sure if that is her working style, or what we could do...

She said nothing. Usually space in therapy with T1 means... think carefully about what you said (and/or I can't validate that - I do the same thing when I teach). Then I asked her what I could do, and told her I was trying to explore my anger and what it was "getting me" - aside from protection why did I want to hang on to the fear, and hurt. I was hurt, she can't even speak the words of what she said to me on the phone - she will dance around it and say 'the thing' or 'what was said'. Yesterday I asked her to say it to me, because I still can't reconcile what happened.

In a fit of anger, she went off on me and at one point said I had unrealistic expectations; not only during the phone call, or during our recent interaction but she proceeded to name an entire span of time she felt this way. Vented about all she is doing right now (a vast list of personal things). All based on my asking her to help me work through and apologizing for lying to me about something weird. I was shocked, that if she felt this way why she did not bring it up. It was devastating... and now we're trying to work with her continued apologies (which I told her, I'm not looking for sorries, I'm looking for what I can do). That she said her life at the time (which was legitimately stressful - I got the list) fell on me, and shouldn't have.

Promptly after she said that to me on the phone, she wouldn't call me back even after I waited a couple of days. She refused to write to me. I felt completely abandoned. Thankfully T1 was there, to talk to her and get clarification for me. I stopped seeing T2 for almost 2 months until I could handle seeing her to talk.

It re-created the dynamic of my parents, from my birth... to my whole life. People's problems were dumped on me, or my fault, and then I was left to heal myself, them, and figure out a way to be perfect. Since then, she's had the same "boundaries" but I have taken back my control with mine. She is doing a lot more unusual things. She told me I could call to chat about anything even a tv show, she's offered and done stuff that is never stuff she's done before.

So in a way I feel like I've guilted her in to doing this stuff, which she will eventually resent. She does things I don't ask her for. I asked for more yesterday... and not only was it open ended she did something very nice, but I don't think it is something normal or something someone would do, and not anything I specifically asked for.

So it's this trauma from November with her re-enactment of my childhood stuff. I've been told by both my T and P that I have excellent relational boundaries with them, and I maintain the same standard with T2... because it's me and how I operate. I just don't want her to be unpredictable, and I can't trust anything she does because I've not heard NO or "I will only do up to _____" or "Here are my boundaries with that" (and her "boundaries" are almost nothing). She has said she will let me know if I bump in to one... but the way that things happened... I don't know if I can trust her. It wasn't a boundary I hit, but more like her going off on me. When she knows what my expectations are about certain things based on how things have worked................ so...... wtf man!

This is long, so if you made it this far, thank you. I just want to hear a NO, and I just want to feel a wall because I can't feel safe. I try to tell her this, and I still get no structure.

In some ways it seems that the yes word is worrying you more than the no word. If that makes sense. My last T really broke some boundaries and called me every day. Bought me things. Emailed me too. All without my asking. This was a HUGE turn off for me. I mean I eventually just wanted to get the hell away from her. On top of all of that she also agreed with anything I said. It feels really good to see a real T again who has boundaries and who cares enough to actually try to help me heal.

Red -

Sorry about what happened with your T (typing on phone, beware of autocorrects!)

I can try asking for something outrageous to "test" but my number 1 fear there is her believing I expect that, in order to even ask. There is nothing insane I can think of to want aside from asking if I could slug her - but even then she would still let me do a pushing away somatic exercise. It's hard to be upfront with her because I feel annoyed that she doesn't say more and that's when I get emotional and I can't tell if she's trying to have me connect to my feelings or is incapable. I have a habit of dismissing people as incompetent, particularly authority or assistance, and I want to do things myself so I worry my thinking and seeing that she is dumb is a little out of proportion?

As for knowing where I stop and she begins, I impose my own stop. There are many times I say no, or stop doing ____ which they believe is positive and caring on their part and I appreciate it but so not need it (but its good to know it is there to ask). I'm trying to learn interdependence... Where we share a fluid mutually defined based on our OWN boundaries relationship... Rather than one I separate and then set up things for them so they know they are separate too.

This is just so backwards and I feel hateful and ungrateful. But towards T2 I feel like the adult, the T, that I'm dragging her around my therapy by a limp arm waiting for her to get up and equalize. I feel like I have... Not necessarily all power but all the ability and responsibility.

Sorry again to be long, trust me how ever annoying I am here is 10x worse in my head... All day and in most of my sessions.

How can I come back from disappointment and loss I respect? She says I have to forgive her and I do on a cognitive level... But my heart, and I've told her, was totally broken by this.

Turtle - sorry to cross post with you... I can understand what you are saying. That is why I set up firm boundaries at the start and would continue to do so if I felt they were being like that. I'm glad you left when you felt you needed. Did she ever listen to a no or what did she say when you terminated?

catalyst- I too would have trouble forgiving my T if she reacted to me the way she did to you. Sorry you had to go through that! It sounds like it was excruciating. Thankfully you had T1 though. You really raise good questions about boundaries and saying "no." Like a lot of people here, I'm also afraid of hitting the boundary and hearing "no." So far, I've asked for so little, so I haven't heard a "no" yet. But I don't even want to risk asking! I wish I even knew what to ask for? I admire all of you willing to ask.

I did recently ask if she would be willing to go for a walk when I feel like I want to get out and move around (in order to be able to be more expressive). She said she would be willing to try, if that would help me. But so far, we haven't gone. I want to ask every week! But I don't. It's my birthday in 2 weeks and I'm thinking of asking then...because I'd rather have a more mellow session on my birthday anyway.

When I've asked for things (or called her a couple times), she has always been so responsive. She asked to hug me once, so I know she allows touch. I haven't asked to hug her...even though I want to..and even though I know she'll say yes! Grr. I wish I could ask for things more. She has told me I can call her whenever...but of course, I don't even when I want to and am struggling. I envy your ability to be so assertive! Good for you. I question where my T's boundaries are too? I really think she has some, but I don't know where they fall.

I think your T2's boundaries/way of practicing sound difficult. I know I would question my T if she always said yes (I know I just wrote my T always says yes, but I don't think I ask her enough for her to say no. I really think she would have no problem saying no to something she was not comfortable with). Anyway, I just wanted to write b/c this is something I struggle with a lot and also, I wanted to say sorry for what you went through with T2.

erica, thank you for being so vulnerable in what you're sharing here ((hug))

And thank you for empathizing on the difficulty of going through that stuff. It was hard to talk about here in detail because I felt I overreacted, but also couldn't explain the situation in words that would make sense. I still don't think I did.

I'm so glad you have been able to ask your T for more things, and especially a walk (those helped me so much!). It's hard to think of what to ask for sometimes, but... it may be that we don't need anything at the time, or we're building to it. I've asked for more mellow sessions too when I just feel like it's too intense, I very much hope that will be okay with your T - she should be responding to your needs.

Maybe your T will offer a hug again, I've told my T is is okay to offer (sorry I hope I'm not discounting you or making this at all sound easy - just trying to relate?? It's not easy AT ALL). They have both offered and... it is hard to ask for but here is the trick I asked for it to be a ritual. That way I can say no if I don't want one, otherwise we just always do therefore... I avoid having to ask like EVERY WEEK. Only if you're comfortable enough w/ your T though.

In time it will come... in trust it will come. T2 is difficult... I don't know what to do about her sometimes. I did have a talk with my T yesterday (when you wrote, actually) about all this. She's still not concerned, and helps explain to me what may be going on therapeutically. It's hard to let others have their boundaries... I like knowing everything, upfront, right away.

Hey Catalyst,

Sorry I have not been back to this thread before now. It is really such an interesting topic and I can relate to a lot of the perplexity. I am so sorry T2 blasted you like that. I thought Red's suggestions were interesting:

quote:

i wonder what would happen if you asked for something totally outrageous. something that you know the answer would have to be no. and if she couldn't say no to it...well, then you'd know that she doesn't have any boundaries (not good) or that she's been guilted (as you said) into giving you whatever you ask for. then you could confront her on her obvious inappropriate response. but, if she did say no, then you could gradually inch it in until you find out where her boundary lies.

I have often thought about doing this with my T, but I felt the same thing you did about being scared she'd believe I expected whatever I was asking for. . . and for the "test" to be meaningful I'd have to think of something she'd believe I might be sincerely wanting. Then there's the fear that she would just say yes, thinking that if I were asking for something that unusual it must be really important somehow, or that I'd be making her feel bad by having to say no.

So at any rate, although I like the idea and have considered it I haven't figured out a way to apply it that feels okay to me.

Therefore. . . not a lot of advice, just thinking out loud with you. I can totally see why this situation would be so anxiety provoking, but I loved this:

quote:

I'm trying to learn interdependence... Where we share a fluid mutually defined based on our OWN boundaries relationship... Rather than one I separate and then set up things for them so they know they are separate too.

Seems like a good thing to strive for, and I'm glad you're not giving up on T2 since she obviously cares and there's probably potential for growth there for both of you, approaching the problems with that mindset. I think you have such a poetic way of thinking about the whole therapeutic experience and relationships in general. It is fun to follow your progress.

Good luck with this and hope you will continue to keep us updated.

Thanks, cat! Your posts are so open and vulnerable...and help me to be the same

I agree with HIC, the way you write about and view this process is really beautiful. I like reading your posts.

And no worries at all, I definitely didn't think you were discounting me or anything. Your response was helpful, actually. Thank you! This topic is so interesting...keep us posted, if you feel safe enough and want to!

I'm in a really bad state of affairs right now due to this whole no no problem. I'm so triggered I've been crying 4hrs straight. I just want to crawl in a hole.

((HIC)) I liked Red's suggestion too and... yea you totally get my fear on that!! I've gone with the aggressive 'hey you *** what are your boundaries with < insert long list here >'

Thank you for thinking outloud with me. I like when people can do that... that's what i think this whole place is about.

I'm trying not to give up on that hag of a T... it's just really hard to feel like i'm teaching her. grrrrr. thank you so much for your compliment s you're sweet i always enjoy your posts, i think i've said that... and i hope i will continue to.

Keep letting me hear what you're thinking... or if you can figure out a good no thing to ask for lol

((erica)) i'm glad they help... i love hearing from the heart stuff about people's therapy. and thank you for the compliments also i've really enjoyed getting to know you. Keep me posted on what you're thinking about the same thing... I'll keep you guys posted but right now..... I'm feeling like a grizzly bear.

Almost the same thing happened this weekend and I'm abandoned with just such difficult feelings.

I talked with T1, who I think it's unfair to get to facilitate conversation with T2, but there are people at the treatment facility T2 works at that knows T1, T2 and me that I think could help.

Is it useful to get a "consultation" it's not really a consult but I want a facilitator in the room to assist with communication. I have a good one in mind who is a pretty straight shooter.

I feel like T2 is going to terminate soon based on the issues that are being caused in our relationship (for my safety, her sanity, whatever reason). Unfortunately, she does a very specific and specialized type of work that I cannot get anywhere else in the city. I'm also committed to self improvement and a lot of our issues are bigger than they need to be because of my trauma history, but the communication breakdown is horrible.

This isn't something I would consider if it hadn't been going on since November.

Input?

Cat, I'm sorry you feel things are stuck.
It sounds like you value the work that T2 can do with you - is it worth the hassle?
Do you feel like you can have a really honest, heartfelt discussion with her or are you not quite able to get to that because of some defensiveness on T2's part or because you are struggling to trust her again after the rupture you had?
If you are ok with some external input to support your work, do you think that T2 is?
How would you feel if this wasn't an option?

I'm sorry I'm not able to offer much in the way of solutions. Just wanted to say I am thinking of you and hope you can find a way forward.

xx

((Iris)) It is worth the hassle unfortunately. And.... yes... I can have a heartfelt discussion with her but I'm not trusting her ability to handle it. I'm not sure on T2's boundaries with help outside of our work (with someone else) but I asked her today, and she does talk to T1 periodically. If it wasn't an option... I'd be frustrated, but continue to get support from T1 while I keep charging through. Your writing helped, and helped me think, thank you so much.

((RT)) I'm complicated at times, and vague. I do have an intense trauma background - I had to raise my parents, give everyone in my family boundaries, console and take care of those who were not to be in my care. I had very violent experiences based on not living up to undefined standards. So this does give me boundary issues - but not with breaking other's boundaries necessarily, rather, if I perceive someone ELSE does not have boundaries I freak out and either run, or hold the boundaries for both of us (not a good way to have a relationship).

I do have anxiety, and do need help from my therapists when I'm triggered. I still turn to T2 because I want to work hard. I understand my issue (extreme emotions) and the intensity has less to do with her and I - and more to do with attachment, my parents, and childhood experiences. All 3 of us (T1, T2, myself) know this. So I do keep pushing to contact her in ways I have normally done. So yes, it is about the core issues there. T2 does somatic therapy - I also do talk therapy, and DBT with her, however she is the only person that does SE in the way she does (trust me, I've called folks) and she has a gift for it. I find the processing there so valuable but you do need a basic foundation of trust to do it.

I know there is a way back to a good relationship, so I've felt profoundly that it is important for me to go through. Both of my T's compliment me on the crazy hard work I do, that I am "gifted", "brilliant", "resilient"... I walk through the fire all the time. Even when I had a poor relationship with my T1 to start I showed up, every session. I've never last minute cancelled, and I've cancelled maybe 3-4 appointments based on work conflicts. The same with T2 - even if I am scared, mad, anxious, etc. (With the exception of a 2 month period, where if I saw her I probably would have ripped her head off).

Here is why I'm in therapy: I tried to kill myself (and was clearly unsuccessful) it was the first time ever - it felt like the most logical choice in the world. So, when I got out of my long stay... I still didn't want to live but I told myself... I will try as HARD as I can to get better, and if I can't... I'm allowed to die. So... I've worked as hard as I can... I see progress, I've gotten to the point I recognize my contributions to issues, how the past is coming up, etc even when I'm triggered.

I'm also extremely fragmented (think DDNOS in a way) I have a completely rational, logical observing self... and different emotional selves. I'm smart, I understand the dynamics going on - but I also feel different ways. Constantly I'll have several opinions on the same thing, several feelings all are valid but I'm able to explain myself to me. T1 has said I've done the first and third part of therapy... but skipped past the 2nd... the actual processing.

Sorry this was long, but I hope it helps you understand me a bit better. I would like a consult because I am not hearing T2, and I feel as though she may not be hearing me. There isn't a side to be on - I want to have our conversation facilitated.

And... if a part of me ever feels like someone is incompetant (which on a level I do feel that way with T2 right now). I start setting boundaries, organizing, leading, ruling the relationship... because my parents had no emotional, physical or sexual boundaries with me. So... I do tentatively walk toward my T, with one arm out so she is not TOO close, but that I'm still taking a risk and trying. I want her to facilitate with me the changes I want to make rather than me "leading" and dragging her around (that's what it feels like right now).

This is what I've experienced of myself... and what I've experienced as feedback also. I try to do the hardest choice with my therapy as often as possible. What I want from her is not "more", I get more than enough from her and her nature is very giving and caring (when she's not pissing me off) - I want to resolve what I feel is one person speaking German and the other Chinese because we can't seem to get on the same page, I don't feel heard, and I don't feel like I am listening right either and that any attempts at clarification on either of our parts just leads to worse rupture


I found this as a pretty good article about Dissmissive Attachment:
http://marythemom-mayhem.blogs...ders-dismissive.html

This is one of my primary issues, though... over the past 3 years I have learned to develop an emotional connection so it really breaks my brain and I'm in a 3/4 dismissive 1/4 unknown sorta secure sorta not place. My Ts originally asked and encouraged me to reach out (and think it's a good sign when I do - because 90% of the time I don't want to .... but do anyway even if it makes it harder) and still do... constantly or reach out to me, where in the past I'd never allow that.