Hi TN,

I find it weird to see my Ts clients - I almost always see whoever is before or after me, which changes sometimes. I miss the guy that was before me on Mondays... He might be done therapy since I haven't seen him in a few months - I never said anything to him but he was part of my "routine". I find myself wondering (an assuming) just how much "better" of a client the must be than me. I feel very treasured by my T and that my feelings are safe, but I also feel like a needy pain in the ass so it makes me feel too like I need to need 'less' of her. I think that comes from my childhood of knowing I wasn't important (and not wanting my parents focus) so it didn't matter. I've always felt like I am and deserve 'less' so its my nature to assume everyone is better, it's just figuring out how. Their outward appearance bugs me from an eating disorder perspective, but that's everyone.

I know you very very strongly denounce any erotic feelings in any capacity for your T but do you not hear/see any here at all? I guess I mean, do you compare your looks to others in other areas and feel differently about yourself as a whole base on their attractiveness? You mention that your T is a man so of course he notices - what would it mean if you felt alluring/with a body in a way that might elicit the type of noticing you are talking about? Is it sort of like that parental need for specialness (forgot the word you used and am on phone to reply) and you feel specialness is related to attractiveness?

I'm just wondering what the difference is perceived to be if you felt good about your body and went in with a 3" skirt? How might it be different if T was female? Same?

I am curious how it relates and am Hoping not to be coming across as aggressive I'm trying to see the deeper link in attractiveness (which I view as a sexual word, but I don't think you do, I'm not sure) to attachment stuff. It's mostly because I see sometimes a very strong statement of No erotic transference and the connotation Is different for me, despite the linkage to clearly non-sexual childhood experiences.

So... You are not alone at all with 'the other client' weirdness. Sometimes I get frustrating see the evidence of how much 'less' I am just because they exist. From an attractive standpoint everyone looks ordinary to me and my yoga pants.

((((((TN)))))))

All this sounds like it really triggered some deep, hard, anguishing pain and feelings for you. I just wonder in light of what you've been sharing recently here on the forum about C and especially the struggles you mention about T, if all this isn't more related to a sense of deeper insecurity and fears about T in general? While it may have played out in terms of your body image stuff, that maybe at that deeper level the real crux of this is your fears that T somehow doesn't really care about you, finds you unlovable, or worse, that he will reject and abandon you outright?

You have been going through a lot and are still in that grieving place, and I think that means it can be so easy to get triggered b/c you are trying so hard to sort through your pain and all the mix of feelings. Please try to be compassionate and kind with yourself, and try to see the beautiful, gracious, caring, lovely woman that you INTRINSICALLY ARE--our special and precious True North that everybody here on the forum knows and can attest!

xxxx

Hi TN,

This is a very confusing area for me because on the one hand, we aren't the center of the universe. Our parents, if they had done the job well, would have made us feel important and special but if we had siblings, we would have learned that we aren't the most important person in the world.

On the other hand, having that special relationshiop with one person - a partner, a spouse - isn't that what we are all looking for as human beings? Don't we want to be someone's center of the universe?

In any event, these feelings are great fodder for therapy. We all feel jealousy and a sense of possessiveness. It's healthy to acknowledge the feelings instead of denying them and to ask for what we do need instead. Are we important to that person? Do they appreciate us?

I can't really comment on the attractiveness part of it except to say that sometimes when we are abused we "use" our sexuality as a means to be special to someone. It's not that we want to do that. It's just that the lines get blurred and we weren't able to work out what it means to be a woman vs. a girl and deal with our sexuality. It's all one and the same. Being intimate (even emotionally) for us often means using our sexuality to get there. AT the end of the day, though, it's all about getting to a place where we can feel good about ourselves without having to depend upon an outside source (our T's or any man) to tell us that we are sexy and/or attractive.

TN, you are dealing with so many of your core issues here. This is the core. How you feel about yourself is being reflected back to you within your relationship with your T. It's awesome and necessary stuff to look at though very difficult!!!!

quote:

For those of us who missed out on a positive paternal attachment, I think one thing you always pine for is to be Daddy's beautiful, precious little girl. If all goes well, he is the first man we fall in love with. He instills in us our sense of being precious and special and adored. To him we are of huge value simply because we exist. We are effortlessly cute and engaging, we are quite naturally irresistible and to our delight we can use our feminine cuteness to twist him around our little finger. He loves it, we love it, it is a natural part of our design.

Sorry you're having to deal with this TN, although...it probably gives you lots of good material for discussion. As though you really needed that at this time, lol.

I have my own weirdnesses around the other clients. For me it's not about appearance though; usually I look at the other client/couple and try to decide if they are more or less interesting than me. Middle aged couple: definitely boring. Young woman with punky hairstyle: dang, probably more interesting than me. It is all more than a little absurd and I kind of enjoy laughing at myself over it. But sometimes I have a different fantasy of T hosting a big picnic and inviting all of her clients so they could meet each other. For some reason I just imagine they would be an intriguing mix of people. Even if some of them are "boring" middle aged couples, lol.

(((TN)))

Other clients, hmmm. . . I usually see someone either coming or going. Most of them do not really stand out to me. I do remember this one young man (and I think I actually posted about this). He was a handsome young cowboy type. He and I were double booked. T ended up declaring that the appointment was mine and that his mother (?) must have gotten the date wrong on his. But she seemed very embarrassed and kept apologizing to him, and finally he said in this soothing sexy drawl, "It's okay, baby."

T freakin'

quote:

giggled.

For some reason witnessing that interaction unsettled me and I thought about it for weeks (not constantly, but you get the idea). I wasn't sure what bothered me? I don't think I want to be attractive to my T. . . but I might have been maybe jealous that he could make an appeal to her attention in a way I could not. One does want to be THE special client, whatever that means. Or maybe *I* was attracted to young cowboy and to see him "flirting" with my middle aged T was subliminally irksome.

To tell you the truth, it was probably both those things. It is strange that in the therapeutic context everything takes on a heightened significance of such magnitude. Just a three second exchange, but it impacted me.

Sorry for rambling on about this. It's all to say-- I can relate, even though the context is different.

quote:

Do you all see other clients come and go? How does it make you feel? Am I the only one who struggles with this?

Totally relate to your OP

Wow all such great responses. There is a lot here to think about.

Cat... you hit on some important aspects. I still don't think I have erotic transference with T but yet I do want to be special to him. I want him to think that his other clients are nice but no one is as special as I am. So I think that I equate attractiveness with being special. Like I cannot mean anything to him unless I am beautiful and perfect (how I see perfect). And being special means he cares more about me. So he cares about those tall, thin, tan gorgeous women and he cannot care about plain, drab, ordinary me. Does that make any sense?

As far as other areas.... it's pretty blatant in my workplace. The more attractive assistants get the better positions, more praise and more special treatment than those who are not the stereotypical model types... tall, thin, tan, blondes. Does not matter how hard you work or what you know or how pleasant your personality is.

Hi Amber... you are correct in that it stirred up lots of deep pain and anguish. Pain that has always been there. It is very difficult for me to believe that T cares about me. He tells me nice things and then when I see myself in the mirror it does not match so I don't believe him. He is just being nice, or trying to win me over. I give him such an awful time how could he think I was "lovable". And if I was lovable how come my parents didn't see that? I know there is transference mixed in with grief over what I never had mixed up with feelings about my T. And thank you for the kind things you said about me. that was sweet.

Hi Liese...thanks for responding. You are correct I that we should have been the center of our parents' universe. Many of us, sadly, were not. I'm not sure about the sexual aspect of this. I think it may be more of the Daddy thing and my feelings of possessiveness about T. It is a confusing area. I know we should talk about it but that is hard. Has anyone done this?

I'm going to post this and then continue.

TN

Monte thank you for responding. Your words really resonated with me. In fact, when I walked into T's office I could still smell her perfume and it felt unclean in there to me. The office was now no longer neutral.

You are so right in that society worships the young and beautiful and T is not blind. It just really hurts to know that they are worth more than me in the eyes of society and maybe T too. With women like that in his office how could I EVER be anything special or mean anything to him? Not possible.

*************************

"For those of us who missed out on a positive paternal attachment, I think one thing you always pine for is to be Daddy's beautiful, precious little girl. If all goes well, he is the first man we fall in love with. He instills in us our sense of being precious and special and adored. To him we are of huge value simply because we exist. We are effortlessly cute and engaging, we are quite naturally irresistible and to our delight we can use our feminine cuteness to twist him around our little finger. He loves it, we love it, it is a natural part of our design.

When it doesn't happen like that, because of our fathers absence or sickness, for some it leaves a gaping void...maybe for most in one way or another. We long for it. We try and find it, maybe search our whole lives. Maybe somewhere along our journey we connect with a male whose face somehow seems to fit that faceless, absent figure in our hearts, and as silly as we feel about it, we try and find that missing sense of worth through them. Little wonder we spit when some younger, cuter, more alluring model comes along and threatens to steal their attention."

**********************************

Someday I'll learn to do the quote thing right LOL... but what I have quoted above is so pertinent to what is going on. You have captured so perfectly what I believe is playing out with T. I see him in that paternal way and I am most attracted to him when he behaves in a fatherly way. I was never that effortlessly engaging, cute and irresistible little girl because I was a sad, abused and depressed child who didn't even realize that there was no attachment figure there to be special to.

BLT, thanks. I also often try to decide if a client is boring, interesting, or why they are there. Sometimes I do see men or non-fashion model types coming out of his office. OldT used to see an older woman in long skirts before my son every week and I would imagine she was there for grief counseling. Not sure why.

Hollow... you made me laugh with the blanket comment. I do have a blanket I keep in T's office that I use when I'm there. So I had this visual of me taking it out with me and throwing it over the skinny blond. I'm sorry you had to endure that ritual with your oldT. I would freak if I had to do that each session. Sit outside and right at the most exact moment? I could never do that. I hope your current arrangement is more humane. thank you for joining in the conversation.

hic...you were not likely jealous of T but yet you felt possessive towards her and cowboy was infringing on that. Or heck, maybe he was just really cute and enjoyed having two women giggle over it. LOL.

turtle...I'm sorry you can relate but thank you for letting me know so I feel less alone in this.

Thanks
TN

((TN))

I didn't mean to say that you were using your sexuality. That came out wrong. I meant more along the lines of what Monte said about wanting Daddy's love but when we get older, the added layer of our physical attractiveness gets mixed in. It's just a grownup version of childhood needs. We might want one thing, i.e. Daddy's love, but that's not what men want. And so it seems only natural that that might be something you stress about, the attractiveness of the other women. I still don't know if this is making sense but I hope it does.

My T knows that I've had to block out his other relationships. I haven't talked about jealousy and possession with my T but am definitely aware of those feelings.

I have not talked about my feelings surrounding my attractiveness directly with my T but have made comments about all the beautful women here in my town and sort of like, how would I ever be able to compete if I was single again? My T responded by saying, yes, Liese, there are a lot of beautiful people but if you look closely, there are cracks. LOL!

It is TOO sensitive a topic for me to bring up to my T because for a long time, I have wanted him to find me attractive. It's only been recently that I've realized that that power is mine and mine alone and I shouldn't give it away. As long as I feel good about myself (which I don't) then I am not going to worry about what men think of me. I can see now how a strong sense of feeling good about myself will be incredibly empowering - when I get there.

I actually came back to post that I think all THIS STUFF you are talking about is YOUR inner child. You've stumbled upon it!

Unfortunately been there way too many times. Except I can't say there was any sexual component to my jealousies since my T and most of her clients were female. Nevertheless, I was constantly jealous of other clients and any attention they received from T. I rarely handled it well, and neither did my T. The feelings were too strong and my insecurities too great to suppress. I just could not convince myself to think and act like an adult when triggered by other clients, and my T ran out of patience I guess. I feel bad that you are suffering this way, TN, but I do not have any advice because I never was able to overcome it myself. And I have no desire to repeat that experience again with a new T. My plan now is to not let myself need new T too much at all so that I won't feel threatened by other clients. I call it proactive avoidance.

Hi TN

I have seen some of T's other patients over the years and it hasn't bothered me too much.

BUT I have had enormous difficulties running into his 15 year old daughter over the past few months. The jealousy and hurt and rage that gets stirred up can be almost unbearable and similar to you, I suspect it relates to never feeling special, protected and loved by either of my parents and wishing T was my dad and not my T. It is an awful position to be in and I would encourage you to keep talking to T about it.

Hugs xx

Hi TN -

I'm sorry you don't feel special - or special enough - or most special. I suspect that you probably are special to your T - just not in a tall, tan, blonde way. Rather, in a way that is better than that and more meaningful.

The "mindfulness" for this situation is to focus on what is real between you and T when you are in session with him. You control how you present yourself, and based on how you've described him, I'm guessing that he appreciates, admires and respects when you are being your genuine self - showing your fears and concerns and vulnerabilities.

And if you can't stop thinking about the other client, maybe you can imagine her as terribly boring or very bitchy or trite and doesn't pay her bill on time.

As I was pondering your question and how I felt when I saw other clients, my anxiety went right to my personal issue which is time with T. Does T give them more than she gave me?

In reading others' responses, it seems that we all respond with our own flavor of insecurity, and it's one more opportunity to work on our issues.

Take good care, True North - and take some comfort in knowing that you won't be suffering the ravages of skin cancer like Miss TallTanBlondeClient.

RT

((TN)) what you are saying does make sense - I suspected the attractiveness was tied to your thoughts on self worth. I'm sorry it is like that at work, also. I haven't found that to be the case in my work, but I might not notice. I'm not sure if I have seen that in my industry, I work in a professional setting but the advancement is more on a who you know basis - and, we don't have anyone who looks like a model there that I can think of we're a rough and tumble bunch, professional meets visible tattoos LOL - my office is about 90% female, including the management staff (being proportionate to the population). I'm sorry your work is not like that, I get very frustrated w/ how mine works sometimes, too.

As a natural blonde (who dyes their hair another color) I don't find it a mark of attractiveness, nor tans... but I live near a very large college campus where everyone is "blonde", tan, and wears clothes I stopped fitting in to when I was 12. I have no choice in life but to be 'white as milk' like you - it's that or red as a lobster. It is so hard not to judge ourselves physically against others, like... impossible pretty much. Anyway, I hope you can learn to accept yourself, and that the therapy will eventually help, as your good feelings of self come onboard.

You haven't talked to your T about this yet? For some reason I'd thought you'd had when talking about his wife and the lateness, but maybe it was something you mentioned HERE and not w/ him. I can see how that would be uncomfortable - you'll have to be prepared to deal with your own body image issues. I enjoy avoiding those issues like the plague... which makes eating disorder therapy pretty fun. It is the fear of confronting my own self-hate that is awful. Hopefully you and your T can keep it attachment based, and territory based over going to the other parts. All are equally scary.

I wonder what, if any, correlation there is between feelings of possessiveness as it varies from only children, oldest, middle, or younger children. I haven't talked about seeing other clients w/ my T... actually I might have... but I'm not sure. The biggest transference I have was with my somatic T, who has some clients with zero boundaries who will ramble with her and those people I want to punch in the face, because aside from a nod of acknowledgement or a hi I wouldn't interrupt my T getting a client (there are lots of people there because it's a treatment place, so people are there for other reasons than individual T sometimes). When it comes to my time... my time is MY TIME. So I understand the issue you had/have with the lady who now comes after you. A good blanketing might help LOL.

TN, I can definitely relate to the wanting to feel 'special' element of this.

For as long as I can remember I have been doing things to try and be noticed positively (at school it was being the good kid and the perfect student). It was hard to accept that I could be worth something just as I was without all that striving. It all worked just fine when I could keep up that pretence. Unfortunately the bottom fell out of it all when I crashed and burned as a student and suddenly all the self-worth that had been linked to being the good little worker hit the floor and smashed into a million pieces.

Did you ever read Roald Dahl's "Matilda"? I remember reading that in my very early teens and feeling so very sad because her teacher took her home and cared for her because her parents didn't get how special she was - I realised I desperately wanted to be taken care of too. I remember thinking how weird I was - a teenager having those thoughts.

I get this feeling in therapy too; wanting to be the special client and I find myself responding to it by trying to show that I grasp new concepts quickly, that I am making progress, that I find her words insightful and helpful, by doing my own learning and reading outside of therapy. In fact, I realise that I am still doing my 'perfect student' routine, just it has a different name now!

I don't have the feeling of possessiveness so much. I think I get that for that hour she is present and there for only me and she does manage to convey that very well. I don't much like to think of her other clients and in my head I feel as if I am actually her only client, which points to a spot of denial perhaps.

Your about not being a cute, engaging child but rather a sad, depressed little girl really touched me. I share some of those feelings. I was the overly-serious, too-adult, weirdly dressed kid with big glasses, who felt intrinsically unacceptable to others. Your feelings towards your T looking at them through this lens seem quite normal, although I appreciate that they must feel absolutely excruciating.

Take gentle care.

TN I wanted to get back to this. I HATE seeing other clients of my T. HATE it. No matter who they are I can't help but think they are more interesting, more engaging, better looking, funnier etc than me. I think "Why would T ever give me another thought after seeing this person?"
I guess that is wanting to be special. The truth is that I guess our Ts can care about more than one person. They can have room to care about all their clients I suppose. I had a T one time who said she had been a T and a client and told me that the difference is sort of like being a teacher. You have many students so your attention is spread out more than if you are a student who has one teacher. It made sense. It didn't make me feel better but it made sense. Then I wanted to be the favorite "student". With my last T (the one who dumped me last month) I never felt any kind of connection with her in the 8 months I worked with her. I felt like she refused to see me as an individual with unique traits and experiences etc. That was a huge part of my problem with her.

It is clear to me that your T cares a great deal about you and that your T likes you very much. He even told you as much!!! You are unique to him TN! And let me say this, as far as the skinny, tan blondes, I am sure they have their own issues because they are in therapy and I know you know this so I am not lecturing you. But don't forget your own beauty TN. You sound really pretty to me. Dark hair milky white skin. Sounds beautiful. (please don't think I am getting weird here... Just saying)

Hey Liese, no worries I understood. I am, in fact, terrified of appearing seductive in any way in therapy because of what happened with oldT. My T believes part of the problem in that therapy is that oldT developed feelings for me that he had no idea how to handle and so being a coward he ran from me. But also the feelings of wanting to be attractive for Dad do come into play and mix in the inner kid who was sad and never the cute happy little kid no wonder I'm confused. I have not talked to T about this. Maybe one day. Liese I hope you keep your power and come to feel good about yourself one day soon.

MH I totally get that you feel jealous without the sexual component. You finally have someone to listen and care about you and then it's sort of pushed into your face that it's not what you really want... which is to have her to yourself... all of her attention and care. Sharing it sucks and I'm really sorry you are struggling with this too.

GreenEyes ... it's interesting that you mention T's daughter. My T has a college age daughter and I don't feel the same crazy jealousy about her. Maybe because I've seen pics of her and she is the spitting image of T and she has a lot of the same features I have.... dark hair, milky white skin and she is a bit overweight. I think SHE is beautiful though and I'm actually glad she has such an awesome dad. It's his wife who shares his office suite that makes me feel crazy as you have probably read in my various threads.

RT... thank you for those very wise words. There is nothing in my T's behavior that would indicate that he has nothing but respect for me and cares for me....I guess it's all in my own head and mixed in with lots of parental transference that needs to be explored at some point. Thanks for the reminder to focus on what is real between us. Oh and you cracked me up with the skin cancer reminder.

Monte that was very profound how you describe not being able to take it back to "then" which is the true issue here isn't it? And trying to make now then is exactly how you describe with the sentiments on a post card. This is where the grief comes in. I feel we will be hovering around this for quite some time.

Hi Cat... yeah I've done the red as a lobster look too. Not attractive LOL. And yes the attractiveness is definitely tied to my self worth and the feeling like it's too late for me to ever gain that kind of security about my looks. I'm not getting any younger. We have never talked about this. The wife conversation was tough but focused more on my fear that he would not protect me from her.

TN

quote:

I wonder what, if any, correlation there is between feelings of possessiveness as it varies from only children, oldest, middle, or younger children.

I wanted to come back to this Cat because that is a good point. In my family, I am the oldest child followed only by a sister. She is 3.5 years younger than I am. Once she came along I lost what little attention there was from my mother and grandmother and everything centered on my sister. And because she was a little "difficult" i.e., she would scream of anyone other than mom or grandmother held her she got their attention with little left over. Maybe this is part of the fear that seeing and having to acknowledge that T has other clients comes from. They are better in whatever way (prettier, smarter, more interesting,) and that means I lose him.

Mallard... I wanted to reply to you...thanks for your comments. I, too, was the kid who strove to be the smartest in school and get perfect grades. It was the only place I got any recognition. I didn't read that book but I was addicted to TV shows like Donna Reed, Father Knows Best and Ozzie and Harriet (ok I'm showing some age but they were long in re-runs when I watched them) because the mom's were so calm, supportive and interested in their kids. They never raged out of control. And even the Dad's always seemed to have sage advice and were strong and protective. All the stuff I longed for.

turtle... the teacher student analogy is a very good one. I know you know how this feels. I do try most times to pretend that I'm the only client. It works when I don't see the others. It was really hard on Thursday to see the perfect blondes both coming and going. Thank you for responding and for your support and understanding.

TN

Hi TN,

That's interesting, I'm an oldest w/ a 3yr old younger (brother). He was always quiet (I was/am absolutely in love with him) and a little quirkier than me. Where I'm more out going and confident, and curious. His weaknesses caused my parents to think very highly of him - that he was more sensitive, more artistic, and better w/ just about everything or forgiven for many things. I tend to find myself a lot "less" than others and maybe that is related - as i comparison to other clients I feel very ashamed of my existence (a lot of it is abuse, too though). Despite his greater acceptance by my family he was not spared much of the same abuse I went through, and I was protective of him also. He's a pretty cool guy. My parents still support him financially, but express their disappointment in him often. He's become a heavy substance user.