You know what? That's all ok. Nobody expects you to put up a front or be okay here. However you feel is how you feel.

The books aren't going to work as that is all cognitive left brain stuff. You are running a very long marathon here, it's not a sprint. Keep doing the work and stopping for water breaks and you will get there.

(((hugs)))

strm. thanks.

can the right brain change?

you are kind. thanks for hearing me. feels good to be real. openly miserable. no pretense.

thanks, jill

quote:

can the right brain change?

YES!!!!!!!!! That is why I am doing the kind of therapy that I'm doing. It changes the right brain and areas of the brain that are affected by and store trauma. I tried all of the intellectual routes and those were a dead end.

I'm glad that it feels good to be real. Real is good!

Jill,
I am sorry that you are in a place of such pain, but so very glad that you talked about how you felt. Before you can change, you have to acknowledge where you are. And even though what you're are feeling isn't a lot of fun to feel, they are your feelings, and you're taking the risk of letting your real self be seen. Thank you, I feel honored.

I know you didn't ask for a response, but may I make an observation anyway? This overwhelming despair and hopelessness you're feeling sounds like an emotional memory. Any child who experienced a mother who never loved them or held them, would know this kind of despair. As we start to work in therapy, the feelings we've worked so hard not to feel, move in closer and sometimes flood us. This may be what you're experiencing. This is going to sound weird, but I see this as progress. You're feeling your emotions and you're being open about what you're feeling. That's a pretty big deal.

I also understand your frustration that all of the reading and learning and investigating isn't helping. My favorite defense mechnism is intellectualizing and all my life I have leaned heavily on my intellect to stay away from my feelings. I was a right brain person who fled to my left brain. So there was no end of frustration when I realized that healing isn't about what you know. To quote an email from my T

quote:

I know that knowing the unknown will help, but the knowing of the unknown' won't be known in the way we usually know things, and knowing this won't help much either"

It's about experiencing your feelings, expressing them and having them known and understood. It's really hard to walk in the plaes we have to go and feel the things we have held off for so long. It's understandable that you want to give up. I also want to point out that there is no reason to give more validity to what you're feeling now than when you are feeling better. Our emotions and state of mind are always changing, but when our experience is so weighted towards pain, the difficult stuff feels a lot more real.

Last but least, I can honestly tell you that I have felt everything you've said in this post and thought the same thing about my life and I was wrong. There was a way through and healing. And I believe you're just as capable of healing.

And Jill, I hope you don't leave, but do want you to do what you need to in order to take care of yourself. You're always welcome here.

AG

strm. thanks for the YES!!!

ag, thanks, too. no, i won't go anywhere. i need y'all. y'all help, and i feel a part of it, and care about everyone. i guess it is progress. to feel. yes, i intellectualize, and flee feelings. so they are really numb inside, but outwardly, i behave appropriately.

i love what your t said. i gather, that the unknown is not known in usual ways.

how does it happen. just time? i feel frustrated that dr. pa is so accepting and non critical. it feels fake. maybe he is right, and i am fighting it? i crave abuse??

regardless, i like him, so i'll continue. but, i have to awaken my right brain, and have it find me. somewhere.

but, as an infant looks into her mothers eyes to see who she is, and she sees scorn and aggitation...she grows up feeling she is a burden. and bad. and that is hard to shake.

i know y'all know. that's why i can't leave. but, i can't pretend with y'all anymore. the sunny side is baloney. ok?

thanks strm and ag.

still, ag, i like that last quote. ya think it's true??? ....maybe it is...jill

jill... I'm so glad that you let it all out. It's good that you did that and I too hope you stay around cause I'd miss you here. Aside from that I think STRM and AG gave you great feedback but I'd want to add that sometimes being able to receive the kindness and caring is harder than taking abuse. We are used to the abuse but the caring is harder.

I think you are raging at your pa (do you notice that spells "pa" as in Dad?) because you are feeling things for him. I think you feel you are moving closer to him and that is scaring you and perhaps you are looking for a reason to run from him. So you don't want to believe he cares for you, likes working with you, is kind and gentle and accepting of you. That can actually feel painful. Been there and know that. Maybe it's safer to feel angry at him for something, because that enables you to keep your distance from him.

As for the pretending... you don't have to be all happy and sunny for us. We rather have the real jill however she feels.

The brain is plastic and can change with time. As STRM says this is not a sprint it's a long marathon and you need to slow down and take one step at a time. If you spend enough time with pa I think your right brain will start to wake up (if it hasn't already) and you will find that attunement and connection will begin to feel healing. Much of this is in the non-verbals. How is your eye contact with pa? Once I was able to start really looking at my new T I could see SO much more and I began to FEEL so much more. The warmth and the caring. It was all genuine and then things started to happen in the relationship. I would leave him feeling calmer and more grounded. I began to trust him and feel safe.

I think you are doing just fine Jill and I, like AG, have also retreated into intellectualism. It's a classic defense... you avoid the feelings if you bury yourself in left brain activity.

I hope your night gets better and you have a good weekend. BTW, as you get to know yourself better and feel better about that, then you will begin to allow others (your dh) to know you too and things will improve.

Sending hugs
TN

thanks tn.

it is so hard to feel this accepting is sincere.

too, he is 78. and last time he propped his feet up, first time, and had to reschedule our monday appt to tuesday, which was snowed out. so, my brain assumes he is sick, had to get into the doctor, circulation problems, and the only time they could see him was during our appointment, and he is going to fade away or retire and all my secrets will again, be lost with someone.

i just get so hopeless with this.

it is so hard to know who i am. i have pretended since about nine to be 'good'. and i am a masochistic martyr.

i was prized at some point for not being as difficult as my schizophrenic sister, so, i just put my needs to the back burner and tried to shine. yet was met with ridicule and humiliation, albeit, less than my sister.

oh, y'all don't have to read this all. but thanks tn. i know you know. that right brain resonance may happen with him, and maybe, that is the key to healing. he says bringing the unconscious to light, examining it, and deciding if principals you decided many years ago (to be the long suffering, needless, good, daughter and please my parents at all cost, and one day, i will be appreciated) are really what i want to live my life for.

kindof like if you were raised hard core baptist and 'knew' dancing was wrong...well, you may want to revisit that assumption.

some intellectual stuff, but, all in an environment, i suppose, where that poor old right brain is held and nurtured and accepted and loved, and understood.

oh, i think he is capable. i just hope he lives long enough to help me. and, he is such a fine man, he deserves just as long of a life as he wants. a fine man. i MISS him. darn this snow.

i feel better pals, but, no more pretence. hopelessness is not far away. ever.

they say that one difference between a true depressive and a masochistic personality, is, that the depressive is hopeless, and the masochistic thinks if they keep doing this harmful, self defeating stuff, that ONE DAY, someone will appreciate them. so, i have always wondered why i have a glimmer of hope. now i know. i wish this 'knowledge' would quell my harsh super ego.

y'all are great. thanks everyone.

still blue, no sunny yellow anymore. truth. jill

I can feel your pain in your posts, Jill. It is clear that you are really hurting and have spent a lifetime hurting. I can relate so much to what you have written and it breaks my heart to know that someone else struggles with these feelings. I do hope that you are able to get a break, even if it is brief, from these intense emotions. Be good to yourself and do something nice for yourself this weekend.

<<SI triggers>>

lady grey. thanks. yes, a lifetime is true. not knowing what is sane, makes it really hard now to know what i am shooting for, and what is 'normal' for me, other than the normal i have mistakingly lived under for all my life.

i don't know if i am truly 'crazy'? i am not on a perpetual psychotic break, but i feel i am just super-ego. and a really bad id. nothing in between. and, without a seed of an ego, where do i go??

AG:"I also want to point out that there is no reason to give more validity to what you're feeling now than when you are feeling better. Our emotions and state of mind are always changing, but when our experience is so weighted towards pain, the difficult stuff feels a lot more real. "

yes, ag, that is good to be reminded of, because, THIS feels real, and me...the other feels like pretend. if one fakes it til they make it, well i am practiced up for my debut.

i know i am not the only one struggling, so enough of my hot air. but, geez...i don't know the first thing about relaxing. sleep? that, which is essentially escape, is the only relaxing i know. working to produce effective things is all i know to do. stuck at the anal stage, apparently.


<<stop, si triggers>>

sometimes i think about si, even though i never have, but, sometimes, i am sorry to say, but, like sex, it would be something to wake up my senses. i know that is bad to say, but, i am just being honest.

i need something to trigger my right brain into action with my left brain. they don't even know each other.

yes, i realize i am sick. i need to go crawl in a hole rather than polluting the cyber-waves. and i have to 'put on the healthy mom face' in an hour. i can't do it anymore, mom needs to go somewhere and fall apart, but i can't for seven years. then, what's left, will fall apart. i don't see how it can be repaired so piece-meal...an hour here and an hour there. it is treading water, and i am tired. so tired. the plastic smile is broken. and i need to raise healthy kids. the pressure is killing me. and all this cramming for information, is so pointless. i intellectually could be acing tests on alot of this stuff, but it is NOT TRANSLATING!!!! how do you keep it all back, from exploding? am i alone here? am i the only one that feels so off their rocker, permanently??

and i know i'll make it, i will suppress all this stuff, just like i always have, and do what i need to do...but, is that really what life is?? are there people who really do enjoy life? and relax?

i don't get it, i really don't.

i'll be ok, don't worry about me. i am just voicing from the recesses of my mind that never get out there. and don't know where to go.

monday, 10:30am, i can't wait. oh, i need it.

jill


thanks, and you do sommething nice for you, too!! jill

Jill,

I am so sorry to hear of your hurt and pain, I can sense just how difficult a place you are in right now, bt I am so glad that you were able to reach out here and express how you feel. I really admire you for that, I rarely let my guard drop, the smile stays nearby that shows the outside world I'm ok, even if I'm not. So well done you for telling it how it really is, your T would be proud of you I'm sure.

Take good care jill,

starfish

((((JILL))))

Hope you are in a better place now by the time you read this!!

Hopefully you just worked through a big one.

Liese

starfish, yes, the plastic smile. my face hurts. fortunately my kids are out late, so i have a bit before i put it on. my h and i talked. he just is happy. he doesn't get depression, altho he is supportive and patient.

liese. what 'big one'...i have not worked through anything! (not trying to be mean, i just don't see it). i am in an ok place. i won't si. just hanging on. thanks for the hug.

uv. i am not seeing the awakening. i am just too tired to smile.

a question i asked dr. pa twice, and didn't get an answer to. is depression better (a step in the right direction) than anxiety?? because the anxiety is pretty much gone, but the depression is here big time. i sleep alot. bed early, naps. no enthusiasm for anything. flat.

i appreciate the encouragement that this is progress. it doesn't seem that way to me. i am more just quitting trying. all this crap i read just compounds the wounds, as it all is me.

i am obsessive, i read, i run, i keep busy to avoid thought. yet i am constantly in thought. circling thought. and now, i quit. this reading is a joke. i am just trying, as always, to run away.

if THAT...the stopping of the running, is progress, then, here i am.

i don't even know how to express it all to pa. i feel so silly, trying to 'cram' all this psycho-stuff into my head. to cure me. of course, that is why they got into the field, i presume.

i guess in that way, the running, it is a resistance.

please, my friend, what epiphanies are you talking about?? the awareness that my ship has sunk? is that good??

i am still blind here, i don't see the progress.

i am so sunk. and i really don't even care, for me. i care about my family...my kids. me? no. sick of me.

and my blasted FOO, they are all mad at me because i am no longer the ever-enduring, strong, lets insults roll off her back 'jill'. they are mad that i can't continue to give. just like always. it is a one way street with those horrible people (mom and sis, dad just out of it). jill is only good if she is bringing something to the picture. if jill is having problems, bad jill. no blasted compassion for me at all. same as always. no appreciation for what i have done in the past, it is all about NOW. i hate them. i do. i hate them. bloody HATE.

guilt? i will say, that has gone. i no longer feel guilty for not providing to them. that is a bit of progress.

but, sadly.

it is like i am in outer space, and for all my life, i have been attached to the mother ship. now, i am unattached, and free falling through space. not sure where to attach, altho logically i know...nor how.

a mess. my right brain is in paralysis. and my left brain is throbbing from all the blanking knowledge i have stuffed in there lately.

oh, uv. thanks for your encouragement. the fog just continues tho. is this my defenses dissolving??

oh, it hurts.

reality bites.

life hurts.

why??

does it always hurt??

uv, i hope things improve on your lot. damn difficult gets old. y'no??

jill

(((((JILL)))))

I so relate to the FOO not being supportive, only wanting, only sucking the life from ya. you know what? i'm thinking that the hate isn't such a bad thing. maybe that's what is real. how can you love people who just drain and drain. and who cares about the smile? life can hurt sometimes. you don't have to smile for my benefit.

what was pa's answer about depression being better than anxiety? i ask because i'm in the opposite boat. i used to just be depressed, now i'm just anxious all the time. can't sleep much. all my life i couldn't get out of bed, now i can't sleep. odd, isn't it?

(((JILL)))) can't tell you it gets any better. life does hurt. life is hard. just hope it doesn't always hurt, that you can find some joy somewhere.

((((MORE HUGS)))))

Liese

liese. he didn't answer it. i asked him twice, two separate times. sometimes he will say, hold that thought and go back to something else, and it never gets addressed.

ill ask again and let you know.

last year, i was an anxious mess. it was like my brain knew something was wrong, but didn't quite know what. well, now i know, and am depressed. not anxious, really at all. altho i ruminate like crazy. circular thinking. i guess, some anxiety there. but, just sleeping boring depression. 'bed' is all i think about...alone.

maybe there is no steady answer to that question. perhaps it is different for everyone, but, i will ask again.

i feel so bored with everything. lifeless.

i hope your anxiety eases. i did find alot of help with clonozapin (there are other names, clonapin, etc.) and really, these are quite mild, so, i would not hesitate to use them. it is like a half a beer. just a bit of a chill pill. a lifesaver for me at that time. REALLY!

hugs back. jill

df. thanks. i have thought about you. i am sorry. it seems like all your wonderful advise, i just eat up, and spit out. (the dbt) and i am sorry for what must seem like pointless words to me.

let me say, though, they are not. your support and education helps me a lot. these things all stir in my mind, and, like a chryslis (sp), it is all a part of the process. so, thanks.

no, i think at the time, i don't think i am faking it, when i am bright or witty. but, when i get low, it seems a part of the charade i call my life.

ag said it is ALL real, basically. so, i will ponder that thought too.

y'all all help, and i just wish i had more wisdom to share! empathy, i do have.

hugs to you too. i know things have been hard for you lately.

is there a full moon? or is this the after holiday crash?? winter dol-drums? i dunno??

xxoo, jill

((Jill)) Ok - sorry for the hugs but I felt like you needed one.

I feel like I wrote your post - Hence the name Smiley - my alter-ego or whatever you want to call her. Always Smiling, always happy. yada yada yada...

I can feel your pain and frustration. I'm sorry. I know for me, I still have a hard time trusting my T. Ya know, so understanding, so not judgemental, so compassionate... just doesn't always make sense to me that she can really sit there and just accept me for who I am. I have gotten much better at just believing and trusting her with faith, at face value. I have to be able to believe in someone. I know it isn't because I'm paying her (she charges me next to nothing) so there has to be something true there.

I don't know much about the right brain thing, but I do know that a couple of things helped me. I started making jewelry. Little bracelets and stuff. Then tried necklaces, then earrings. Funny how I liked it. I love the craft store. I started trying different things with wood and glass. It definately stimulated something in me. I also use my music to help. Sometimes I will sit and play the piano for hours. I take all of my music out and put it on one side of me and just go through each song, whether I like it or not, and just start the pile on the other side of me for the done ones. Just a thought.

Anyway, I hope you are feeling a little better by now. I know it sucks, but we do get a teeny breether in between.

Smiley

well, hallelujiah brothers and sisters...there is no snow, no ice, no telephone call cancelling my appointment. by the looks of things, i have t, after 10 days with out that ended with my sobbing and bawling in my closet last night for thirty minutes. just MAD and sad that i have NEVER had anyone help me, as a child, as a teen, as an adult. it has been a one man show, and i feel i have done a lousy job.

so, dr. pa has a long day ahead of him.

uv. thank you. you always have a way of helping me. you seem to 'get' me, and my obsessive left brain ways. i guess you are right, my defenses are dissolving. the plastic smile, the 'being nice'...well, i told my h one thing i am really sick of with him, and my kids too. not in an irrational way, but in a 'i have had enough'. i didn't go to church, and for once. didn't feel guilty about it. i ordered $250 worth of painting supplies on the internet, and may order more. anyway. dang it. i am starting to assert myself. so thanks for pointing out what that IS, and is not (me being a bit**).

the chicken and the egg with anxiety/depression. i think for me, a MAJOR USER OF DENIAL AS A DEFENSE!! the anxiety makes sense to be first...the unease that something doesn't add up, then the depression of what it is, the reality of what i never had, the grief, maybe is just now starting to poke through. it sounds it is reversed for you, as maybe you have always seen reality, and been depressed about that. and rightly so. maybe the anxiety is, NOW what do i do???? i may be hitting that soon, too.

the guilt on the mother thing?? as my h says, she has cost you so many years, this is just the equilibrium of what the reality IS in that relationship. also, as dr. pa says. "children were not put on this earth for the parents, parents are put on the earth for the children. and as adults, whatever the nature of that childhood sets up the nature of the adult to adult relationship. it is a one way relationship, and if an EQUAL friendship develops, great, if not, that is nothing to feel guilty about."

i hope that helps, it helped me.

i do appreciate your advise that focusing on the emotions with get 'there' faster than the intellect. oh, uv. thanks!! i will use that in my guiding basis for t. it does feel good to cry.

xxoo, jill

smiley. yeah, uncomfortable not being judged, isn't it!! i think that is the healing part for the right brain. if it can actually embrace it fully, and turn that darned left brain off in analyzing it for holes.

geez!!

too, i think the things you are doing, the jewelry making, the craft store. THAT, is what i feel God is pushing me towards. artistic expression. full on right brain engagement, in a restorative way. that is me and the painting. i do feel i will never reach my nourishing self center (if that makes sense) with out painting.

so, i am glad you are feeling that too!

on a note with your name, i used to have my signature on my email with a big happy face. despite my crumbling insides. it is interesting in analyzing that. it was so true, that despite whatever happens in the tone of that email, whatever i am feeling, i close with a happy face. my life in a nutshell!!

well, i changed that last year, as it finally impressed me, in the midst of the most painful part of my life, my farthest cast from sanity, that, a 'happy face' sig, was too much!!

i think we both need to feel ok being real. and, to believe our t likes us. mine has replied, when questioned...'why wouldn't i like you?'. and one bad session, when i was so sad about my parents not loving me, i asked him if he had kids, and started down that road, caught myself. and somehow questioned him about his feelings towards me. if he would have wanted me as a daughter. he answered the only way he could. 'can you think of any reason why a functional parent wouldn't welcome you as a daughter.' the next session, he told me, 'i don't know if you remember what i said last time, but, you do know that there is no reason why a normal parent wouldn't love to have you as a daughter.'

i gather that was a 'yes/as if'. the best he could professionally do.

i accepted it.

smiley, i picked 'jill', too, as...'who wouldn't like a gal named jill'??

jill

that man is amazing.

i wish i could tell you what happens. it baffles me. i spill it all out, he hears it all, does magic, i suppose. and i leave, smiling. with a deep, sincere smile of happiness.

unreal.

he is amazing.

this works for me.

i don't know. i finally asked him 'how did you get to be so nice?' ... he replied, with a smile, 'years of analysis'.

whatever, it worked.

he helps me. i talked about the how to's on the right brain left brain. i told him the left brain is there. he said we are working on the right brain.

i leave it in his hands. he is.

i wish i could tell you what it is about him. the kindness.

i asked him if he ever got irritated at me. he said, about what?? what have you done that i would get irritated at you? then asked if i got irritated at him? i said, yes, when you won't tell me what i do that irritates you.

he said he would rather me look at my thoughts with curiousity, than criticism. and that, he would emblazen on my forehead.

again, he repeated that "i should know that any normal person would love to have me as a daughter, did i not realize that?"

i shrugged.

he said something in effect that it was true.

still no answer on the depression/anxiety, which is better/comes first...he has dodged this three times. dang. i am going to catch him on this.

he is amazing, and somehow, is filling up that void inside of me.

i level with him pretty well. but, i can't help but be a little more 'charming' than i am in real life, as i am encaptured by his bond.

i love pa. so FLIPPING much more interesting than the rest. i HATE behavioral stuff. with a passion.

he let's me hate. no scorn. thinks i am normal. depressive, neurotic. but, normal.

he sees my worth. i tell him i'm not there in a right brain way.

he encourages my painting.

i dunno guys. pray for longevity for this sweet soul.

i do wonder how he got to be so nice.

i wish i could share, guys. he is good.

much better, jill (who knows she is not ready for anything less than three hours a week with dr. pa!!)

i love the painting name! too funny! yes, i love that color too!

the thing about this man, is he is older, so i FEEL ok loving him and letting him know that. it feels safe, not erotic. paternal. and i am comfortable with that. he knows it. i don't feel threatened by the feeling of love for him. i don't feel guilty, either. in fact, today, i told him that i only like two people in the world...him, and my oldest son...he remarked that two is better than none!

it is so nice to bond and attach without shame or guilt, or really, confusion.

what age is your guy??

jill

that's exactlly what i am imagining. blue skies, cloud formations, peace, low, low horizon, not sunset, day, peace, blue...i'll try to use ultraviolet!! and still life..

strong colors, heavy strokes, pure tones...

i see it now. i WILL paint in extremes and sanctify this extreme way i am internally for some use!! (other than pa's couch!)

would love to see your pic, tho! i'll keep you posted...exercise for the right brain....the shriveled, crying, torn right brain.

xxoo jill

jill... I am so truly happy for you that you found a place and a T where you can be yourself (albeit more charming LOL) and you find peace and acceptance and magic. That you found this lovely man who listens to you and makes you feel so good. And that he encourages your creative side to emerge and that he tells you things like anyone would love to have you for a daughter! Isn't it wonderful to have that complete attunement?

You have sounded so much better lately. I know that you will grow with pa and make the progess you so much want to see.

I think that when we feel more acceptance and more heard then it clears out some of our stuff to make room for our creativity. I find that most members here are creative souls. I cannot do art but I write... stories, poetry. Therapy with oldT had allowed that part of me to be free again but now I barely managed to post here and my creativity is frozen again for now.

I will pray for a very long and healthy life for this sweet pa that you found that makes you so happy and helps you so much.

Best,
TN

tn. thanks so much. your warmth is oozing over, as i know how sincere you are in your support. we've both had a rough time at times with this t stuff. but, it sounds like we are both landing rather nicely. i am thrilled for you as well.

it is so funny. no one, but y'all, can possibly understand all of this. without being in therapy (which is SUCH a unique experience, one ANYONE would benefit from) it is impossible to express this relationship, and the power that CAN come from an attuned, skilled (...HUGE PART!)therapist/analyst.

the relationship IS so key. as i said to uv, it is so nice that i can love him, openly, without shame or guilt, or, right now, confusion about his place in my life. the age difference is so much a part of that. and of course, his skill at knowing how to handle that...with humility, rather than arrogance.

he has been more than generous pointing out his humanity to me at these times. not so as i could see it as a direct reply, but, i think, to keep me and him "real". and grounded in reality.

thanks for your support and prayers for this fine man.

xxoo, jill

Hey Jill,

Just read your post about your session and just want to say that he sounds amazing. Understanding the process I guess makes it a "little" easier to tolerate the emotions that go along with it.

Why does it hurt so much to know that no one is there for us? At the end of the day, we are all alone. I KNOW this. I am no more alone than the next person. I am no more with people than the next person. But the fact that I FEEL alone is the killer.

liese. i know what you mean. the thing is, i think, for me, is that, i was never NOT alone (emotionally and psychologically), so until that thirst is quenched, as an infant/child, one still longs for it.

my husband remembers so much less of his childhood than do i (his was good and normal) his attachment needs were fulfilled, he grew normally, and transitioned the phases of life normally, with appropriate needs met by 'good enough' parents (pretty good, really). so, for me, without that, i am still looking for that magic something...

too, my nature is sensitive, emotional, etc. and i say that in a more accepting way than i used to. just like i am tall and blonde...it just IS. so, my nature, and my significant lack of nurture just set this up.

i am accepting that, and myself, more. and i used to struggle with the validation that seems you are feeling, that "we are ALL alone, i am no more alone than the next person"...well, liese, my opinion, is, i am, in a sense, more alone (you too?) than the next person, because that little place in our memory was never filled, and is still trying to resolve that emptiness, unconsciuosly.

like freuds analogy, of a person is born with
'100 army men'...and if the first stage of trust (the mother/infant bond, oral stage stuff) is not met, then, figuratively, say, 20 army men are stuck at that stage trying to resolve that conflict, subconsciuosly. then, one moves onto the next stage (is it differentiation?/the anal stage)with only 80 army men, and if those issues that come to be grasped at that stage aren't mastered, then the child loses another 20 army men unconsciuosly trying to resolve those issues, and advances to the NEXT stage of development with only 60 army men (40% of the total remain behind still struggling with issues that should have been mastered at earlier stages).

anyway, by the time you get to be an adult, possible you are dealing with less than 50% of a full army! and all this subconscious energy is churning trying to resolve these issues. THIS, for me, is the definition of anxiety!!

anyway, so, your perception that you, in some ways, are more alone, is accurate...ME TOO!! if it helps. but, i do think these issues can work themself out in therapy, but, we will always have the scars, and recall the deprivation.

so, easy on you, coz this stuff MATTERS!!

ok? xxoo, jill

Oh yeah, so totally alone jill, always. I've never had a problem going to the movies by myself or shopping, in fact, would prefer it because it's too taxing to be with people. It's getting too hard to cover up the pain. It takes up too much energy. Too much energy to hide the pain and too much energy to interpret the world and respond to the world in an appropriate way.

Today I'm struggling with something I have to do that I'm avoiding. The thing I have to do is a good thing. It'll help me feel in control of my life. Less on a rollercoaster. I believe in this thing. I've done it before. But I'm frozen with fear. Just stuck. Can't do it. Overwhelmed. Want to sit back with my fiction book and pretend that the world doesn't exist. I guess all my army men have left me at this point. Can you call the national guard? I really like that analogy, btw.

liese. y'no? i've already got a call into the national guard...i am missing 90 army men!! and the ten i have are avoiding all interaction with people closer that cyber space!! i'll tell them to look for yours, too!

the aloneness, i know. i am married and have kids, and that world is protected. mine is EVERYBODY ELSE! 'cept t.

one thing dr. pa tells me, is that i take other people too seriously, and that i give them too much power to determine "ME".

yes, he is right. intellectually, yeah, we know. getting the emotions there is harder. but, sometimes it really helps to know i am taking 'their opinion' and mine, generally, too seriously.

it is easier with him.

anyway. sounds like you know what you SHOULD do, but liese? what do you WANT to do?? really, coz you may find you don't NEED to do this, or, you may find that you know it is good, and, depite the fact that you are dragging yourself there kicking and screaming, the wise part of you wants to do it.

i have a hard time separating the 'shoulds' 'wants' 'needs' 'have to's'...i get real black and white. but, i didn't go to church sunday, and i didn't feel guilty about it. sometimes listening to your inner wise self and what that person, despite ALL OTHERS, wants to do, will help you clarify things. sometimes it helps me, most times, not!!

i am a chronic avoider, and left to my childish self, i would built a fort around my house. but, i DO get out there and do things i like...tennis, bible study...but, i don't do the things i don't like...'happy hour with the girls', 'fancy lunches', 'social networking'.

so, i know i am rambling. i feel your pain.

xxoo, chronic avoider, jill

agh, i just emailed the dbt gal t, i had stalled appointments for a month, and told her that, for now, i need to quit. that i was pursuing another direction, and that this just seems the right thing to do. i thanked her, told her i am sorry if i have hurt or disappointed her, and that i wished her well. signing sincerely, jill.

oh, this breaking a tie is so hard. even if it one you want to break.

i knew two t's wouldn't work forever. but, i will say, i am glad i did it, and feel, for now, like i made the best choice.

i don't want to hurt her. we didn't really connect well. i told her i didn't want her to take it personally, and i don't. but, the reality is, she didn't really 'get' me, i felt. the chemistry was wrong. she mishandled a few things and could not admit error. i dunno. emotional honesty, when i hurt her feelings, that BONDS, not rejects!! y'no?? if someone says one thing and your gut tells you another (like growing up!! the confusion of not knowing to trust your gut, and your parents saying things they don't mean) i dunno, it just rang a scary note for me, and made me feel too exposed.

now, should i tell her that? could it help her? am i being a coward by not speaking honestly??

THIS is my pattern. i don't want to hurt her, as i'll feel guilty, but then, is it in her best interest to say what went well and what didn't?? or, am I the patient...oh, i get so confused and confuddled.

anyway. i left, wish me luck.

i feel good, though. i would imagine the door is always open, i left on good, but somewhat dishonest, terms. anyway, i'm sure i'll ruminate for weeks on this one.

and i don't want to see what she replies.

she wont push it, i imagine she is happy to see me go. but, i know that will hurt, to see her wash her hands of me without a fight.

whatever.

what do ya do??

kindness is most always my answer.

feeling really disattached. but, like my chrysalis is beginning to break away, small chunks, but, baby steps.

xxoo, jill

hey chronic avoider, aka jill, yeah that thing about taking other people too seriously. how does one process that. I really like my T's secretary. She is really really nice. But I was having some serious transference issues with her that I had to talk to T about because I started to avoid her. Well, I still do avoid her sometimes and T lets me get away with it. He hasn't said anything about me bypassing her and going directly to him. But he did say to me, somewhat strenously, you can't stop going to a doctor because you don't like his secretary. The thing is I do like her. But what he and I talk about is sooo intertwined. I've just been able to let him see things, let him see me and sometimes it's hard for me to separate her from him and him from her. It was so hard for me to let HIM see my neediness. Let alone her. It was as if she were my mother. That was a hard one to work through. I couldn't stand the thought of her seeing me as needy and not pulled together and not normal. He told me I was giving her TOO MUCH POWER. So basically, we have a need? We don't try to get it met because we're afraid of what other people will think of us? And that's how we're giving our power away? If they tell us things that give us a clue to how they are feeling and if it's in conflict we are own needs, we let it sit there? And we don't take it out and process it? And say, well, either you can meet my needs or not. If yes, I stay. If not, I must move on????

sweet dbt gal wants to see me about this. i haven't responded. i can't convince her it is not helping. i can't tell her i don't feel her warmth, and that i need that ... actually, i have, and it just isn't there. she is late thirties, is that too young to be a good t for a tough case like me?? it just hurts so much in there, and i feel so alone.

i refuse to hurt her. but, i can't convince her, either. i admire her wish. but, it seems pointless, and that i would just be going in there to argue my point.

i'm just going to tell her i am pursuing psycho-analysis type treatment, and i am ok. don't worry about me, it is me, not her.

geez, i feel like i am in between the rock and hard place...again. where is the line on truth, kindness?? that is where i am. i feel really uncomfortable here. and, i will say, these two t's see me much differently. i ACT borderline with her. i am just a depressive neurotic with him. which is the truth?? i think, with her, i just feel humiliated. with him, i don't. i feel human.

probably transference, that dreaded transference, blurring reality again!! jill

oh god, jill, i know what you mean about that dreaded transference blurring reality. it's such a bitch. i'm sorry if I missed it but have been thinking about this for a while? the break with the dbt gal? it's so hard to walk away, huh? i know how that feels. and then the tug back. and then the confusion, should i stay or should i go? it would be hard for me to go back and try to explain why i want to leave.

If you really want to leave her, then IMO it's best to do it gracefully. if you want to see if it's transference rearing its ugly head, then maybe you could try to talk to her about what's going on. don't know much about the dbt stuff. is it one on one?

i know a lot of people on the forum have two t's but my t had said that you can't have two t's so i'm kind of confused as to how people can have two t's? do they know about each other?

liese. good advise. two t's hasn't been that hard, really. it helped me see the differences in the therapies. and right now, this is what makes sense for me, and seems to fill the right brain needs. so, that is where i am. i realize i can't predict down the road. so, i am not trying to. (new idea for me!)

i never 'asked' because i didn't want to lie, so i just juggled it myself. i figure, i am trying to fix me, so, shouldn't i be in control of who i see? not that it hasn't panged me at times, but, my purpose was not to deceive anyone. but, to heal.

so, intent, for me, is the fine line.

anyway. i can't predict the future, but, for some reason. i feel pretty good about him. the relationship feels dependable. i didn't feel that with her. her words said one thing, but my senses told me, perhaps mistakingly, another.

so, that is where i am, and yes, leave gracefully is well put. that is my intent. i DON'T want to go an argue with her, and i know i can't convince her, and i don't expect to, nor should i NEED her to agree. i guess my ego is strengthening and i am feeling more confident. it does come in spurts!!

but, i was SO REGRESSED with her. and i don't think she quite knew how to handle it, and it took such a toll on me. and, dang it, he is a medical doctor, a p, with a lengthy practice in analysis. he just knows what he is doing, and has years to back it up. and ...

i like him!!

so,

torture or pleasure??

i am going with pleasure...altho i cry probably every time, i laugh, too, tho. he can handle me so well. i relate to him. i just finally feel good about the relationship.

too, someone once told me that a t can take you a few/many steps, and there may be the need to move on to someone else who can take you the next few steps. so, i feel ok about it. and sure am in better shape leaving the appointment at the end of the session with him than her. that oughta mean something.

long reply. jill

jill, well you sound pretty clear about how you feel. there should hopefully be no guilt leaving her because you are the paying customer after all. but i would struggle with guilt anyway. i think it's because of how i have felt when abandonded, how worthless and useless. that i always think i'm giving that same message when i move on and it hurts me so much to think that's the message i'm giving.

he sounds great and it also sounds like you really like him. i've always really liked my t but definitely more so in the past when he always said the right thing. I came to the forum when things started to get stressful between T and I. Before I came to the forum, we had three years of bliss. He always said the right thing. So caring. I think it might be the difference between the validation and whatever that other world was uv mentioned. I can't think of it now.

anyway, i don't see anything wrong with having two t's. I think the current thinking now is that it's really bad to encourage our children to have a best friend. they get too dependent. why doesn't the same thinking apply to having a therapist? it's like having two loving parents, hopefully.

the t i just consulted with twice sends me the nicest emails. i've never read such nice emails in my entire life. even the last one he sent was just one word but it was so beautiful. all he wrote was .... "understand" .... i had actually asked him if he did therapy via email but he said no. then i replied, oh darn, just had to ask. and then he replied, understand. i don't know why that got me so much. his other emails were longer and really inspirational. He kept telling me to feel free to get in touch with him. I didn't know what he meant. Could I keep emailing him? So that's when i asked him if he did therapy via email. I wasn't as comfortable talking to him in person but we also jumped right into the middle of my therapy out of necessity so I exposed things about myself that normally would have taken longer to expose. We didn't have that relationship-building period.

and now i'm rambling. i had to call t for an appointment today. was going to ask him yesterday to put me in the hospital. just for a little while, till i'm stronger. he keeps telling me how strong i am and it seems to me i get less and less functional and my world gets smaller and smaller. so sad. i can't pull myself forward. i keep trying but the other part of me is scared to face reality.

Liese... I'm sorry you are feeling so bad. Did you get an appointment to see your T? Why do you think you need to be hospitalized? Are you feeling very depressed and/or unsafe?

It seems like you feel better after interacting with this new T2. How serious to do feel about switching Ts? Maybe you should keep seeing the new T for awhile and take a break from your T to see how you feel and if you improve.

Hang in there
TN

Liese,

Did you end up going to the hospital? You doing okay today, hun? Give us an update when you get a chance.

quote:

two t's hasn't been that hard, really. it helped me see the differences in the therapies.

So true. Makes me think that everyone should be REQUIRED to have two therapists in the beginning until they figure out which one is a better fit.

TN and LG,

Feeling much better. There's a class I need to take in order to take control of my life. The reality is that there is no safety net out there. I am it. I am the master of my universe. It's the same for each and every one of us. Why does that hurt me so much? That I am alone. Is it because I was all alone during the trauma? I don't think I'm a lazy person. I work hard. I can work hard. Have a little trouble with self-discipline but I can work on that.

But there are a lot of reasons why taking the class is overwhelming. I was really mad at myself yesterday for not tackling it. I was swinging back and forth between avoidance and trying to figure out why I'm avoid this class. There was some serious pain involved and that's why I wanted to be sent to the hospital. I was imagining myself on a sunny hillside painting beautiful pictures, hopefully getting stronger until I could come back and handle the stress. I finally made a deal with myself that if I called T for an appointment that I would also take steps towards that goal I set for myself.

Sometimes I wonder if current T keeps a certain distance with me in order to control for transference issues. I don't know.

TN, I really was taken by T2's emails. BUT, he kept me waiting 45 minutes the first time, 25 the second. I don't know if I could deal with that on a regular basis. He also answered the phone and left the office while I was talking to him. He emails often so I think he's emailing between sessions. He seems very disorganized. The thing I really like about him are his emails. They honestly are the most beautiful things I've ever read in my life. Is this the man who will take me where I need to go? Would he let me email him often if we worked together? Would he say the beautiful things he has said to me in the past? I know he's damn smart.

quote:

TN, I really was taken by T2's emails. BUT, he kept me waiting 45 minutes the first time, 25 the second. I don't know if I could deal with that on a regular basis. He also answered the phone and left the office while I was talking to him. He emails often so I think he's emailing between sessions. He seems very disorganized.

Liese, knowing this I would not encourage the relationship. This is a sign of not holding the therapeutic frame... keeping you waiting that long TWICE is more than just a bad day with emergencies. It's a lack of respect for your time and the boundaries. And maybe his emails are so good because he is better at the written word than communicating face to face. I would hate to see you get into another unsatisfying T relationship.

What class is this that has you so upset? If you don't feel comfortable discussing it here then I do understand. That's fine. But I hope that your T can help you with this. Have you ever tried to talk to him about it? I think you feel alone because you were emotionally abandoned during your childhood when you should have had the support of your parents and you ended up dealing with life by yourself.

As for your T keeping his distance... it could be because he is not comfortable with emotional intimacy that is required in deep psychodynamic therapy. He may have his own issues with closeness that you are picking up on that have nothing to do with you in particular. Have you ever brought this to his attention.... that he keeps his distance from you and the relationship?

I'm glad you feel better and I hope that your next session goes well for you. Let us know.

TN

Hey TN,

Thanks for the support. I want to go back to practicing law and found an online bankruptcy course that I can take as a refresher. But my obstacles are money (spending the cash on the course), feeling like I'm abandoning my H and his law practice while I focus on my own goals, and the what if I screw this up? factor. Have been talking to T about it. He's been very supportive and encouraging me to do it. My H's income is very sporadic and we never really know what money we have coming in. It's a very difficult way to live, which is, of course, why I want to get a job so at least we'd have some stable income. My oldest is going to college in 1 1/2 years and I can't live like this anymore. The stress is unbelievable. But I haven't worked since she was two, have had some more traumatic things happen in my life within the last 6 years and so have a lot to overcome.

I should talk to T about the distance he keeps. Maybe sometimes it's my imagination. I did read that with trauma patients that it's very important for T's to show they care but there's that fine line between holding the boundaries and caring ... I think I see him walking that line sometimes. the article supported boundary crossing for trauma patients, which is what happened when T called me in December.

Anyway, it's all good. Feeling better right now. Again, thanks for caring.

Liese

y'no? i just wonder if other people cycle so fast through emotions (as i do). when i wrote this, less than two weeks ago. i was deranged and desparate. i was so depressed.

i am SO much better now. i feel good about my dr. pa. i feel good making the decision to leave dbt gal, for now (and probably ever), i feel like he can handle me.

i emailed dbt gal last week and respectfully cancelled treatment. i didn't tell her about pa, i just said this was not working for me, now, and it was not her. but, i needed to quit.

as she should, she encouraged me to come in and TALK about it, and make sure this is just not the old pattern of avoidance.

i sent her this email today.



Dear dbt gal,

i know it is 'chicken', but, i would just cry if i talked to you. and yes, i want to avoid that.

please call me if you want to and we can talk. i just think i have a bad 'female/authority figure' transference that i can't lick. i feel threatened, hated, criticized, afraid and ashamed. mom and sister issues, that i thought i could work through.

i don't think i can, right now.

i am going to try another route. with a psychiatrist/analyst that i have had a consult and a number of meetings with. i think i do better with men.

i really don't want to hurt you. it is me, not you. i don't know what else to do but be honest with you. and i don't want you to be worried about me.

at some point i may try again...put 'face to face' interpersonal skills on the top of the agenda, if and when!!

do call me or i can come in, if you want. now that i got that out of the way, maybe i can talk??



your most skittish client, jill



honestly, i DON'T know how it comes across. i don't want to hurt her, i don't want to worry her about me spinning out of control.

but, i feel bad for her.

am i just too sensitive to rejection to see that a 'normally adjusted person' such as herself, can HANDLE this without being hurt or devastated?? i hate inflicting pain, but, i don't want her to worry. and i don't know how else to end treatment, than being truthful. which is new for me, usually i just comply, or run. i couldn't say this stuff in person or on the phone, i just knew it would be too painful for me. i know i am chicken. but, really, do i come across mean and 'bad'???

oh, yes, i still need lots of t, but i have no idea what other people's normal is on rejection.



what do you think?? i would rather have honesty than support right now. i need to learn. and i am stable.

thanks, jill