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Just a random topic really. I'm sure almost everyone here has come across this model which tries to explain certain self destructive patterns of behaviour; but has anyone discussed it at length in therapy?, or sucessfully got off the triangle?, or it is the 'nub' of a lot of what therapy is about?

I know I'm on it a lot of the time and my big problem was/is that I was looking at the bigger picture and failing to see the characteristics. Only when I started thinking in a much more 'micro' manner with much shorter timescales could I see what was happening. Does this sound familiar to anyone else?

Just for information I've copied a bit of blurb about the V-R-P triangle below, sorry it's a bit lengthy!

quote:
The Victim-Rescuer-Persecutor Triangle is a psychological model for explaining specific co-dependent, destructive inter-action patterns, which negatively impact our lives. Each position on this triangle has unique, readily identifiable characteristics. Whenever a person becomes entangled in any one of these positions, they literally keep spinning from one position to another, destroying the opportunity for healthy relationships. The good news is that once a person becomes aware of these positions and chooses to break this cycle, they can transcend the V-R-P Triangle. Resolving these dysfunctional behaviours is one of the main keys for healing ourselves and creating healthy relationships. After describing each position and showing how each position relates to the others, I will describe how to break free of this triangle's destructive patterns.
The Victim - Victims honestly believe they have no power and that nothing positive will ever happen for them. Their focus is on the past and negativity. They spend endless hours talking about their problems, their bad luck and how they have been hurt. They are depressed and wallow in self-pity. Their suffering is their identity. Things are never right and there is never enough. They feel helpless, hopeless, reacting rather than responding in a healthy way to the world. They always need something more before they are willing to take responsibility for their life, to take any action, to change or to heal - more love, more attention, more time or more information. They tend to be confused, living in constant fear of making a mistake or looking foolish. They always have an excuse for inaction. Apathy, depression and anger are typical symptoms. Even when something good starts to happen, they will tell you "I know it won't last" and, as they predicted, it soon ends in failure. After spending time with a victim you feel worn out, depleted and depressed from their negativity. You may feel as if your energy has been drained from you. Regardless of how much time, information, energy or support you provide Victims with, they seldom change. It is important to remember that people only change when they are ready to take full responsibility for all of their thoughts, words, actions and creations - till then, there is little positive momentum!
The Rescuer - Rescuers believe they have all the answers and know the right solutions for others. Although their own lives are often in shambles, they spend hours, days, weeks or even years attempting to change, control and to get love from others. Rescuers frequently wear a false cloak of power and superiority, always appearing to be confident and in control. Rescuers love to take care of and direct the lives of other people. Through controlling and changing others, Rescuers attempt to gain a sense of identity as well as to gain love, attention and respect. They pretend to know more than other people and frequently have an answer for everything, even though they have little, if any, actual knowledge or experience regarding the subject. A Rescuer, on the surface, looks like the "good guy/woman" and is often depicted in movies as the "hero" wearing a white hat and riding a white horse. Rescuers are personified and glorified as saviours or white knights saving others from distress and evil. Without someone, something or a cause to Rescue, these people are lost and jobless! They don't realise they need to rescue themselves!
The Persecutor - Persecutors blame others for their upsets. Here both Victims and Rescuers, become Persecutors, venting their frustration, anger and resentment at others, blaming others for their negative feelings. Rather than taking personal responsibility and walking away from the person who they accuse of irritating them, they stay locked into the destructive patterns, antagonising and attacking the "source of their frustration." The Victim is angry with the Rescuer, claiming they push too hard, demand too much, bring up pain, pressure them to change, etc." The Rescuer is angry with the Victim for not appreciating, not understanding or not changing fast enough, making comments such as "if only you had taken my advice, if only you would listen, change and do what I say ... etc." Persecutors punish others through destructive actions such as dominating, controlling, nagging, belittling, shaming, blaming and humiliating. A Persecutor needs to disengage, to focus on taking care of themselves and getting their own life in order!
Breaking The Cycle - Simply becoming aware of and understanding these patterns are good first steps. Once we are aware of our patterns we can choose to help ourselves to change, to break free and to step off the triangle. Understanding that most "Professional Victims" really do not want help, nor do they want to change, makes it much easier to avoid getting caught up in their games. They might want your attention, time, love, support, money, energy and nurturing, however few "Professional Victims" are really willing or committed to making the effort and taking the actions required to actually change their circumstances. They are masters at the game! That is where the term "Professional Victim" comes from. Oddly enough, when you reach out to help a "Victim," telling them that they are beautiful, intelligent or fully capable of being happy and achieving love and success, the Victim will often argue with you, telling you all the reasons why they are not, cannot - and why your suggestions will not work. Their constant focus is on their past, their problems, fears and failures. I love Richard Bach's famous quote from his book "Illusions" - "Argue for your limitations and they are yours!" This statement says it all!

Rescuers, people who initially appear to be so caring and self-sacrificing, are often dysfunctional. This is especially true if they are playing the role of Rescuer in an attempt to feel good about themselves, to gain attention, love, feel more powerful or to control others. Oddly enough Rescuers are seldom happy in their own personal life and their relationships are usually in chaos. They never seem to be able to use all their "supposed knowledge" to heal their own lives.
Victims and Rescuers are drawn together to play out their game. They need each other. After their initial joyful honeymoon, a time during which each is able to "Star" in their favourite role, they soon tire of this very demanding and exhausting game. When either person, or both, gets bored with the game and wants to change or stop, or even to heal themselves, they frequently end up Persecuting each other rather than seeking healthy ways of interacting. Any change can trigger a conflict because the "Game" and the "Rules" have changed. Both the Victim and the Rescuer have a vested interest in keeping this "Dysfunctional Game" going. If they end it and heal, who would they have to play with? Taking personal responsibility and identifying ones own innermost wants, needs and desires is not the strong point of any of the positions on the triangle.
Society has programmed us with the dream of being rescued. Books and movies are filled with Victim-Rescuer stories like Cinderella, The White Knight on the White Horse, Superman and Rambo. Some people spend their entire lives waiting for someone or something external, such as the right relationship, marriage or even having a child, believing this will somehow magically fix everything, saving them and providing the perfect solution to all their problems.
Getting Off The Triangle - The first step is to ask, "What is my motivation for acting the way I do? Am I consciously acting out of choice and giving freely, or are my actions designed to change, control or get love from others? Do I give and do things freely, with love, or do I have expectations? The minute we expect things in return from people, we are being dysfunctional.
The key to getting off the triangle is to change from external referencing (the unhealthy and dangerous pattern of looking outside of ourselves for answers, solutions, love, our identity and happiness) and to start internal referencing. To accomplish this a person must stop looking outside and be willing to become still, quiet their mind and to go deep inside to get in touch with their authentic self, to receive their answers and solutions. Healthy relationships include honour, respect, sharing and communicating. To accomplish this a person must be willing to energetically stay present, to tell the truth as best they can, to be independent, and to take absolute and total responsibility for every aspect of their life, including their time, happiness and success.
The Victim must stop looking for someone or something outside them to fix them, to give them the answers or to give them the love and support they need. The Rescuer must stop trying to change, control or get love from others. Both must learn how to love, honour, respect and support themselves. Persecution, blaming others, only creates further negativity and never accomplishes anything positive. Each of these unhealed positions leads to even more serious challenges.
To break free, improve your attitude towards change, control, risk and responsibility. Make peace with and welcome change, see life as a grand adventure rather than a prison sentence to be endured. Remain open, spontaneous and curious, like a playful child. Permitting yourself to be imperfect and feel out of control allows you to feel, risk, try new things and go to new places. Breaking free of old patterns allows the opportunity for profound transformation. Eventually, most people realise that they can never change or control anyone, except themselves. Attempting to manipulate, change, control or to force others to love you is insanity! It never ever works!
A simple, easy formula for learning to connect with yourself, is to STOP, take a few very slow deep breaths, disengage from any trauma/drama, become still and then ask yourself - (1) What am I feeling right now? (2) Ask yourself, where in my body am I feeling it? Take a moment and really feel all of your feelings without judgement. (3) In this moment, what is the single most important thing I can do to take care of myself? What is it that I truly want, need or desire? (4) What positive changes can I make in my life, right now, that would assist me to accomplish this? (5) What positive actions can I take, right now, that would best support my healing process - and allow me to take total responsibility for my life? (6) What positive actions can I take to continue to support myself as I risk, learn, change and grow? (7) What can I do, right now, for myself that would be positive kind, loving, gentle, nurturing and supportive? (8) What goals, dreams and objectives would I like to achieve and in what time frame? (9) What are the positive things in my life that I am grateful for? Make a list every day! (10) Ask, decide and choose - What are the most important actions can I take, right now, to start my life moving in a positive direction? (11) Take positive action and start moving right now. Keep your focus on where you would like to go and who you would like to become - not where you have been!

Graduating to Self-Mastery - Taking Complete Responsibility for Everything You Attract and Experience - To take a quantum leap forward and move into Self-Mastery, imagine yourself gently rising above the apex of the highly emotional, trauma/drama dysfunctional positions on the triangle. From this detached, non-emotional vantage point, allow yourself now to look down and simply observe the games you and others have been playing.
If you are willing, honestly ask yourself, "What part am I playing in all this? In what ways am I still on this triangle? Am I a helpless Victim or am I somehow, consciously or unconsciously, creating this? What is it that I really want, need or desire for myself and from others?" When we move away from feeling powerless and blaming others, to the place of focusing on what it is that we truly want, need and desire, we have the opportunity to take powerful life-affirming positive steps.
One of the ultimate positive steps is to move from believing that we are at "Effect" (the world does things to us and therefore we have no choice or responsibility) to the concept of "Cause" (our thoughts and actions create our reality, hence we are ultimately responsible for everything we experience in life). This shift in perception is so profound that it can literally move a person completely off of the triangle! To achieve Self-Mastery, simply stop what you are thinking and doing, shift your focus to one of taking total responsibility for creating everything that you are experiencing in your life and start asking, "Why am I creating this? How am I creating this? What can I do to change this? And, finally, to ask, how can I take positive action to create something more harmonious, more positive?"
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Hi AV

My name is searching and I'm co dependent! Wink

I am familiar with the triangle but reading through that was a pretty
"ouchy" experience. It all sounds sort of harsh. I've definitely read
More gentle descriptions of the roles we play!
Have you read any books on co-dependency? Reading co-dependant no more by
Melody Beattie was a real epiphany moment for me and really helped me to
See the way my behaviour patterns and thought processes were keeping me in
Unhealthy relationships. Awareness is the first step and I have had to make conscious
Choices about how I relate to others. A very precious friendship ended a year ago
Because I stopped playing my role and my friend was very angry. It still hurts
Like hell but it was the best thing for me in the long run.
I found it helped to identify in therapy what needs I was meeting by being in
Each role and did a lot of inner child work. It was really painful work but
So worth it now. I am in such a better place now and have healthy relationships.
I'm able to recognise my needs and meet them myself or at least be honest with
Others about what I need rather than trying to manipulate to get what I need.

This has been some of the hardest work I've ever done and I've been seeing my
Awesome T for nearly 2 years. It's never easy to examine ourselves and own our
Part in unhealthy relationships so well done you for looking at you and being
Open to changes. Keep going with it and you will get to where you want to be!

There are group sessions called CODA (co-dependants anonymous) which are run
Along AA lines and googling it will give you a list of meetings in your area.
Maybe exploring it in a group could be helpful alongside your personal T?

Don't know if any of that makes any sense...I've possibly just rambled at you!

Take good care
AV,
Hi
Excellent article!! Thanks so much for posting it - took nearly my entire workout to read it, but it was time well-spent! Wink

I've long been fascinated by victim-rescuer mentalities, and can see how each could easily lapse into the role of persecutor. I'm of the belief that while many of us do rotate amongst those roles, we tend to have one that is our primary identifier. Ie, I have been a victim several times over in my life, and can play persecutor with the best of 'em, but my core nature favors the rescuer role most heavily.

What a helpful and thought-provoking article. Having those roles so well delineated made it easier to spot myself in each of them, and I hope my awareness will lead to change.

This part really grabbed my attention, perhaps bc I used to hide so much:
quote:
Healthy relationships include honour, respect, sharing and communicating. To accomplish this a person must be willing to energetically stay present, to tell the truth as best they can, to be independent, and to take absolute and total responsibility for every aspect of their life, including their time, happiness and success.


Searching - thanks for sharing what you did about the lost friendship. I'm in the process of what feels like losing a friendship for the exact same thing!


Thanks again, Av.
Hugs,
Starry
Hi Searching
Thank you for your response. You weren't rambling
at all and thanks for sharing. I agree with you
about that particular article totally. I winced
several times reading it. There was so much on
the web about it but that one was easier to
understand for me; if a bit blunt as you say Smiler
I haven't yet read any books on codependency
although it is something I will do. Its a bit
of a vicious circle really; living codependently
is the very thing that stops me reading the books
at home!! That is about to change and the stash
of books I have at work will be on MY bookshelf.

I'm so pleased to hear that, with your T's help,
you were able to find your way out of the
unhealthy relationships but so sorry to hear it
cost you a friendship along the way. I suppose
that is what I am afraid of in some sense, of
losing those friendships I have. Deciding between
unhealthy ones or perhaps none at all for a time
is a tough call.
I'm sure my T will have a few thoughts on this
later in the week and I will check out the CODA
groups on the internet too.
Thanks again for your response.
AV.
Good luck AV in your new home and the next stage of your life!
Self-esteem is also a part of it and again, well done you for caring
Enough about yourself to do what was best for you. I imagine it was a
Difficult process!

The CODA groups at least give an opportunity to meet new people but they
May not suit everyone....let me know what you think if you do go at some
Stage? I only went a few times but may well go back to keep me on the straight
And narrow lol. I'm anxious about slipping back into what my T calls my default setting!
Hi AV,

Interesting article! I winced a bit too as it hit home. It seems like there is little compassion in articles like these. It reminds me of books out on the market: toxic people, etc. That kind of stuff.

For me, it all comes down to - as it always does, power and powerlessness. Getting stuck into dominant patterns of thinking and relating to the world, either thinking that we can control the lives of others or thinking that we don't have any control over our own lives and then all of the emotions that follow when we realize we don't have what we want or we can't control other people as hard as we try.

I bet a lot of people have issues with control. What do you think?
Liese I think you touched on an important point. It is SO hard to accept that there is much in life we have no direct control over. Personally one of my big issues is that I don't feel loved by others and I spend so much time trying to "get" that love but seemingly to no avail. Only recently I realised that even if love is on offer, I can't take it in because of traumatic past experiences, feeling undeserving and most strange, feeling scared.
((((Liese)))) ((((Greeneyes))))

You may both be right to some extent in that there is an element of trying to gain control at work here.

quote:
Personally one of my big issues is that I don't feel loved by others and I spend so much time trying to "get" that love but seemingly to no avail.


That seems to sum it up for me too; to the extent that I now worry that every connection I make might be somehow fuelled by that feeling, and wonder if I shouldn't make any new connections in case that is true Frowner

Any thoughts; apart from a long talk with T? Smiler
AWWW, AV of course you should make new connections. We all need that, yes? It's a balancing act, I guess, between taking care of our needs and taking care of other people's needs. Eventually you (and I) will stop looking for other people's approval, know that we are okay, there is nothing wrong with us and just be okay being ourselves. I hope!
quote:
I just can't help feeling sometimes it might be better to wait until AFTER that time when we know we're okay and not looking for others love and approval before making those connections for fear of making them for all the wrong reasons.

I don't know that we can ever reach a point where being "okay" enough is ever delineated, you know?
I mean, wouldn't it be likely that we might never feel "okay" enough and this spend a lifetime denying ourselves the very things that could help bring about healing?
It's not wrong to seek love. And if connections are made along the stumbling way to healing and feeling whole and ready, then how much might those moments and relationships become a part of, or even facilitate, healing and becoming whole again?
I wouldn't wait, Av. I would try to be aware of unhealthy behavior patterns - certainly we are more aware of those than we were pre-therapy - and I would reach out to "life" around me. People in my path - making friends or at least becoming acquaintances with neighbors, and so forth.

We have to be so careful to not sell ourselves short by denying ourselves things that can lift our spirits and actually give us the very things that can help us heal.

I'm far from perfect at this myself - it's so tempting to try to define things like "ready," but I know that in my case at least, I'll never be good enough to pass whatever self-inflicted, random evaluation I devise.
But I believe in the healing power of love, the love of friendship, for example, and I would hate to see you deny yourself for any reason.

Starry
((((Starrynights))))

Thank you Smiler

I am more aware of the unhealthy behaviours of old and so long as I keep those in mind, perhaps I can risk continuing to try and make new connections. It's being able to see those connections for what they really are rather than what I'd like them to be I suppose; and enjoy them on that basis.



AV.
AV I don't think you should wait, I agree with Liese that relationships forged while recovering are so important even if they don't feel like they make a lot of difference to that enormous inner void. My T's opinion is healing comes by talking about EVERYTHING even your most shameful and painful parts of who you are. When those parts are healed love per se will be and feel so different. Will have to wait and see if he's right. Remember you deserve to be loved and loved well even if you can't feel it all the way through.
quote:
I just can't help feeling sometimes it might be better to wait until AFTER that time when we know we're okay and not looking for others love and approval before making those connections for fear of making them for all the wrong reasons. Frowner



AV, It's taken a very long time for me to become aware of my approval needs and they are still there. It feels odd when I choose to act differently than I did in the past but it's the only way for them to get stronger.

The question for you might be are you ready to try them out? 8 months ago I could only handle 3 hour relationships. I just couldn't handle any type of situation where I would see the same people over and over again and relationships either would develop or they didn't. I couldn't tolerate the expectations that go along with social situations.

But I'm getting better in that regard. Ugggghhhh. Probably completely irrelevant but >...
Last edited by liese
I’ve got a bit of a problem with this model. I accept its validity as a template in which you can put most of a person’s dysfunctional way of living, but… for me, it lacks compassion and stinks of judgment, two things that are so crucial in any healing process.
I honestly believe human beings are way too complex to put into models of this kind. This is a model that stays on the mental level only and does not take into account the emotional, physical and spiritual bodies that are also part of who we are.
So I tend to look at it as just that, as a helpful tool to see more clearly into how we may dysfunction on a mental level. I found a long, sometimes complicated, but much more compassionate article on the triangle on http://www.melodybrooke.com/do...0of%20Compassion.pdf
Funnily, it was a life coach who attracted my attention to the existence of this triangle. Life coaches usually don’t deal with ‘wounded’ people and their accompaniment stays on the mental level. I think therapists should go way beyond this sort of ‘simplification’ and include all four aspects of our ‘self’ into their counseling to be truly healing.
So, not a fan really, no. I acknowledge its benefits, but see lots of limitations.

Greetz,

Shaman

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