WOW Jill - welcome - that is appallingly bad luck and I'm so glad you know to trust your perceptions and get the hell out of there. Both T's sound bonkers, to me. Hugely frustrating when you need someone to provide help NOW. I just had a less than inspiring 5 minute first meeting with a T I'm supposed to be transferred to, and even that has really upset my little applecart. It's awful to be looking on your own and to have such bad experiences. I'm hoping Lamplighter will chime in here too - she's had a nightmare run of people who are just not up to it too.

It shouldn't be this difficult, it really shouldn't, when so much is at stake. Higher professional standards really should prevent this kind of thing.

Anyway, glad to have you around.

Jones

you know, i can forgive human error...who knows why he fell asleep, could have been a bad night, but he had just gotten through applauding me for following my hunches in getting out of that last deal, and that i should have more confidence in my hunches...then, he falls asleep, lies when i confront him, and CORRODES MY HUNCHES he had just suggested i follow. I really don't want to pay him a RED CENT for any of this crap. falling asleep is human error, but lying is criminal in therapy, he covers HIS butt at MY expense. am i wrong to refuse his bill??

Refusing the bill seems reasonable to me, at least for the second session, but I have no idea what the legalities or the consequences would be (emotionally too) - it's just not something I know about. Sounds like he has a great big blind spot about some kind of sleep problem he has. I'd be inclined to write a letter laying out what happened, whether or not you refuse the bill.

Keep us posted!

Hi jill and welcome,

Wow, that really got me mad. I think you should definitely refuse to pay the bill, he has broken his side of the contract by not being there for you. Falling asleep is inexcusable, the odd yawn has freaked people out her but that is easier to explain and understand.

I am sorry too that this has been your therapy experience, together with that totally unprofessional first one who was suggestive. How dreadful, the complete antithisis of what you need and deserve. How did you find these therapists? Is there any reporting procedure that you could use? Scary to do, but the damage from such so called professionals is enormous.

Anyway jill, welcome. I hope you will find someone better who will listen and help you - they are out there, but sometimes it seems, as Jones put it beautifully, as if they're all bonkers.

starfish

dragongly, i think with it being session 2, i am cuttting and running. and yes, he was helpful, but i have major trust issues (and the lying really messes with that) and had blank stares from my parents growing up, emotionally unavailable and ignorant, and this just hits my hot buttons. I HATE HIM! and i know that is the four year old i hear i am speaking out, but she is the one that makes the decisions around here, and there ain't NOBODY happpy when she ain't happy...she has NOT BEEN HEARD ALL HER LIFE and this man isn't helping her grow in those areas....especially by additionally telling her that her feelings and perceptions are NOT REAL! just like her blasted parents!! let's just sweep that problem under the rug!! what a LOSER!!

ok, i wrote him a letter and told him i was quitting. what do you think? do you sometimes feel you are less in need of therapy than your therapist??

i guess this got the adult in me talking.

here is the letter:
Dear dr. 'X'

I am going to have to cancel all future appointments with you.

I am appalled that you would fall asleep in our session. Not once, but twice. Just appalled. I can forgive human error, I have no idea what your night was like. Everyone is human and mistakes happen to all of us. What I can’t forgive, and tolerate, is lying to me about the fact. You had just gotten through encouraging me to go with my ‘hunches’ about that last therapist and his counter-transferance issues, you acknowledged my perceptions as valid and that I should trust myself more. And now you are not validating my ACCURATE perceptions about you falling asleep.

You were asleep the first time for about a minute while I was silent and watching you, nodding and catching your head with your neck muscles, not waking up, but finally, within a minute or two, waking up as I was then silent. You looked at me, I was stunned, and I tried to pick up the pieces and recover a very uncomfortable and humiliating moment. Then, within a few minutes you were back asleep. I was silent, you slept about another minute or so, then woke up. I said, ‘I feel like I am putting you to sleep’, and you LIED saying ‘no, people have said that before, but I am with you, it is allergies’. You LIED to me and basically told me my perceptions are WRONG, I am WRONG, I shouldn’t trust my perceptions, problem swept under the rug, all the things I AM IN THERAPY TO WORK THROUGH. How do you work on self-worth issues with a professional man who indirectly tells you your accurate perceptions are flawed.

To make matters worse, I was tongue tied and without words for the rest of the session. You said you noticed. And I am sure you knew why, but you let it be MY problem, you didn’t take ownership of your responsibility in it. At this point, you had another opportunity to address reality, but you would not even address the issue, and you knew the cause. We are both human here. We both know what happened. And your denial of reality I see as a major deal breaker.

I am appalled at your lack of professionalism and honesty. I cannot and will not stay in therapy with someone who I cannot trust. You had SEVERAL opportunities to correct your error, and you chose not to, and at MY expense. This is a major red flag and I am not going to tolerate a dishonest professional.

(patient name)

jill,

A healthy person is not a person void of problems but one who is willing to acknowledge a problem and seek the means to solve it. You may be healthier than you think. I am glad you found or renewed strength though this unfortunate encounter. You go, girl!

Your letter is honest, full of courage, clear and sprinkled with generosity. I love how you told him what you observed and what it meant to you. You included how what he did made you feel and the effects it had on the relationship. It even sounds like you waited for him to be the adult and own up to his error. I love the line:

quote:

: And I am sure you knew why, but you let it be MY problem, you didn’t take ownership of your responsibility in it.

It was not your problem to fix nor is it your fault, though you softened the blow by offering that suggestion in session. That T is missing out on working with a highly motivated, courageous, intelligent and passionate woman.

I have learned many things about myself in therapy. One is that I am tempted to take responsibility for things that are not mine. Another lesson is harder for me but I will show loyalty when evidence is telling me it is undeserved. Your letter encourages me to keep looking at these patterns in my life.
Thank you for sharing it.

deeplyrooted

yes, deeplyrooted, i tend to walk in a room apologizing...wonder where that stems from mother?? you are so sweet, i do think 'we' have a lot of resolve or else we wouldn't be here! i just have such massive loads of anxiety that i can't see straight so much of the time. yes, i am loyal beyond belief, denying the abuse i dealt with for 49 years just to let my parents save face, as my sister is adult onset schizophrenic (wonder where that came from, mother?). someone had to be the 'good daughter' to prove my parents weren't the problem.

you know, you think you are (me, i am talking about, not you!) smart, and then the denial of this whole abuse/neglect thing for 40+ years comes rearing it's ugly head, and WHAM!! i am back to five years old!! ((all the while raising teen agers that are years ahead of me maturity-wise!!))

i know God has a plan, and a reason, and i gotta tell you, i am DYING to find out what in the world could necessitate all of this!! ((i am not really angry, well, yes, i am, i am lying)) but not resentful to God, just happy....DELIGHTED...to have Him in my life!! I ramble, but i have NO ONE to share all this with, as i am deafeningly in-between therapists!!

ahhh, now maybe i can go function for a little while!!

I agree with what has been said. It is very unprofessional that he fell asleep in your session, but to then deny it is not ok. I think your letter is very good and I wish you luck in your journey to find someone who can truly walk with you in your healing.

just a thought, you don't think therapist number two was trying to 'gestalt' me into some quick transference stuff by being 'not available'..ie:SLEEPING...when i needed someone to hear me (just like my mom did). i do think session two was a bit early for that radical of a move. but it has crossed my mind.

and interesting as i look back on it, and it was just three days ago, i cried like a baby on the phone to my husband for twenty minutes (and he handled it so well i might add) that i really do see some clear transference issues there. how rejected and humiliated i felt at this imperfect stranger, and that i thought i was responsible, and so 'personally' rejected. JUST LIKE I FELT GROWING UP!! definitely. and overall, even with T#1, the fact that he didn't care enough to protect me when i was really not FIT to drive...but he let me wander on out there. this overwhelming feeling that no one that can help me (mom or dad) CARES, and although i am loved by husband and friends(peers) and my children (subordinates!!), my MOMMY AND DADDY (therapist 1 and 2) DON'T BLANKING CARE!!

transference? you bet! just gotta find a way to get a parent (me, i guess, no other volunteers) to care about me and nurture me and love me. CAN A THERAPIST REALLY HELP in that they can't LOVE me????

seems 'catch-22-ish" to me, is it?? can a therapist fill that spot that is so GAPPINGLY EMPTY that my husband, as wonderful as he is, can't fill????

((((jill)))

Transference? Yes, the thought crossed my mind but there are others on this forum who know more about the psychology of therapy than I do. I will say that if you are willing, and it sounds like you are, you can milk those sessions for every drop of lesson hidden in them.

Underneath the anger at your therapsit behavior is a lot of pain and hurt caused by your parents that you have to grieve. You did not receive the love, attention, protection and care that you deserved as a small vulnerable child. That sucks! You are obviously working very hard and doing really well to see the past repeated in the present by catching on so quickly.

A big part of healing comes with recognizing what it is we did get from our parents(some for of abuse) or did not get from them(some form of neglect) and grieving those wounds and losses, along with all the ways in which we tried and failed to find someone or something to meet those needs as a result.

I am just now beginning to see the past in the present and do what I need to heal. I am a few years older than you and I have spent four years working at it. The denial is so strong I have repressed the memories of my childhood. I refused to make connections because I could claim I don't remember. It's nuts. Getting to know your story is helping me see where I continue denial in areas that are blatantly clear to me. I feel like such an idiot. Ugh! Sorry. Not gonna make this about me. I am glad to hear you mention your husband and how supportive he is. I could not have done this without the support of mine either.

Thank you, again.

deeplyrooted

deeplyrooted, you can't be older than me. for one thing. two, you are so kind to recognize and say it isn't about you. i have just been ranting on this site like y'all are there for me, and y'all are. what a wonderful world y'all create for a newbie like me.

yes, denial is amazing...i am astounded by what the human mind can repress.

do you have issues with 'quantifying' your abuse. sometimes my childhood seems hard to believe that i survived as well as i did, and didn't go schizophrenic like my sister did, adult onset, or kill myself, like she has tried. just screaming out to get noticed by parents. and then other times, it seems like i am making a mountain out of a molehill, like they currently say i am, now that i have put up a major wall between us.

do you get stuck in quantifying the past?? in validating?? mine was more a chinese water torture of disregard and emotional abuse and neglect, sprinkled with a bit of perversion from a sick sister...but, then i think, no one lived like wallly and beaver did?? i get to 'what is real' and just this fog of fantasy at what i had 'wished' so hard to make true.

sounds like you have the denial issues too, is it that it was SO BAD, that you 'left' your person? or was it confusion on what is normal...that IS one thing T1 said i DON'T know, what is normal...still don't, he never really completed that sentance, just told me what i don't have...

why do i feel SUCH HATRED TOWARDS HIM...transference?? and the REALITY that he doesn't have the tools i need, and really wouldn't offer me up to other therapists, seems like he would ethically 'have' to tell me that he could do no more, i had to pack up and leave, and apologized all the way out the door, more worried about his self esteem than mine.

geez, what is up!

glad your husband is supportive, too. i wish i had more to offer mine these days.

ok, so what 'flavor' was your denial?? it IS about YOU!!

Once again it's helpful to read posts about things you believed only happened to you,

quote:

deeplyrooted

The denial is so strong I have repressed the memories of my childhood. I refused to make connections because I could claim I don't remember

Indeed, I told myself and my T for years that I didn't remember and really convinced the both of us for a while; or told myself when I did remeber loud and clear, that I was mistaken as that surely didn't happen to me.

But I suppose, for us it is a self protective mechanism that gets you through a period of time when either it's not safe to remember or nobody will validate you if you do. For me it felt like a subconscious - remember and crack up or forget and try to salvage some sort of life now. So I chose the latter and kept repressing until....well until it all came out with my T amd I couldn't keep it shut away any more.

jill I don't know if that's a bit how it was for you? The human mind is amazing and normally seeks to help and protect us, from ourselves and others it seems. The quantifying thing is difficult and I know why you ask - is it to get some sort of benchmark as to what happened to you? I think my T would say that there is no normal, or there is a wide range of normal but tells me frequently that my reactions (that sometimes seem mad) are very normal and I am sur in the circumstances yours are dead normal too - it' s more that we don't want them, I think.

jill well done for acknowledging that

quote:

i survived as well as i did

I hope you can get some support here and elsewhere if you get another (more helpful) T, to help you move even further onwards through this,

starfish

quote:

just a thought, you don't think therapist number two was trying to 'gestalt' me into some quick transference stuff by being 'not available'..ie:SLEEPING...when i needed someone to hear me (just like my mom did). i do think session two was a bit early for that radical of a move. but it has crossed my mind.

The sleeping was probably real, not pretended. But even IF he did it purposely to provoke transference, that IMO would be equivalent to playing mind games, especially since he denied it later. So either way it would be a sign to get the hell out of Dodge. So sorry for your luck, but glad you are getting out early on.

Dr. Sleepy (T2) just called and left a message for me (monday after cancelling all sessions with his answering service on saturday after he fell asleep on friday in session two).

he wished me success and said he would appreciate a call to explain what happened between friday and saturday...i can't believe the man still is staked out on 'denial'.

clueless. he will get my letter today, explaining it (as i know i could never remain that composed and civil on the phone or in person). it will be interesting to see if he remains in 'egypt' or if he EVER acknowledges the truth of the matter.

i am so shocked that a grown man, especially in THIS profession, can be a liar.

DO YOU EVER FEEL LIKE YOU LOSE EVERY ISSUE WITH A THERAPIST BECAUSE YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY NUTS, AS YOU ARE THE ONE IN THERAPY!! i sure do, here, and it happened somewhat before when the office-mate psychiatrist who perscribes my medicine next door to T1 told me i need psychoanalysis, not cbt like his officemate/buddy T1, and when i asked T1 about it, he didn't know anything, so by next session T1 talked to psychiatrist about it and psychiatrist DENIED saying it. making ME out to be the liar...and to make matters worse, i could tell by how T1 lead the conversation saying that he didn't 'preface the psychiatrist' that T1 believed the psychiatrist's words that he never mentioned me needing psychoanalysis. again, transference! i was outraged that they were setting ME up to be the liar, and being the 'nut' in therapy, i have no leg to stand on. kinda like when mom and dad gang up on you and don't believe you are telling the truth.

man, the blanking therapy people have been treating me like an uncaged animal lately.

and i am screaming in the dark (again!) and NO ONE HEARS ME!! (them, not you!)

Hi again Jill

Wow can I relate to your anger - and to the whole set up where your own valid and legitimate perceptions of a situation are denied or at best doubted as untrue. At the very least I would have expected him to acknowledge THAT you were feeling bad about something he’d done even if he wasn’t prepared to say straight out that he fell asleep (it did occur to me that maybe he wasn’t ‘really’ asleep but in an anti-allergy-drug haze) - having said that if taking anti-allergy drugs or just plain being allergic makes him not with it in sessions, he needs to seriously rethink what to do at those times when he’s in that state vis a vis conducting therapy. He sounds like someone I would find it really hard to take seriously, let alone trust and I totally get why you want nothing more to do with him. His subsequent email tends to show that he was not at all aware of the dynamic between you - ok maybe he genuinely doesn't get it (it is easy to assume that how we feel and what's going on in us is REALLY obvious to the whole world) - dunno do you think it's at all worth discussing it with him? Even if only to put the lid on this awful episode. I know you've sent him the letter, it will be interesting to see if he responds to it or not.

Funny too he should be a Pdoc (as opposed to a straight T) - because the one time I had someone fall asleep on me it happened to be the psychiatrist doing my intake evaluation for admittance to hospital. I don’t know who was more bored by it all, him or me, but at least I stayed awake. I remember sitting there looking down (being uncomfortable as hell) and waiting waiting waiting for his next question until finally I looked up and what d’you know his chin was on his chest and his eyes closed. And the nurse in the room with us just stood there and did and said nothing - when he finally woke up he just carried on as if nothing had happened! It was a real indictment of the lack of care in the ‘caring’ mental health system over here and with hindsight considering the nightmare that came later I should have just picked up my suitcase and run like hell there and then.

So what I’m trying to say with that anecdote is that you go for it, rely on your own intuitive perceptions of things like that (especially when they happen so early in the piece) and hold out for what you know is right for you. It’s so easy to get caught up in the oh maybe I was wrong/overreacting/expecting too much type of thinking that goes on in our heads.

Your comments about quantifying abuse - wow again I think that’s a pretty big issue with a lot of people - certainly is for me. I wrote about it earlier on the forum, going to see if I can do a link for you to find it - it might be worth your while reading the replies on that thread (and commenting too.)

Big Hurts, Little Hurts

Hmm it doesn't look like the link has worked damn someone did tell me how to do them and i can't remember. Well anyway the title is BIG HURTS, LITTEL HURTS in Stories and Personal Accounts forum if you have the time to go searching. Sorry.

Ah yes it did work, just didn't look like it when I was typing this up in the little box.

Just a word about transference - I find it really screws me up when I’m reacting to people and events in a massively negative way - to be intellectually aware that how I’m feeling isn’t ‘really’ about what this or that person is doing in the here and now but is ‘really’ a re-enactment of past scenarios (transference), really throws me into a tailspin of resentment and fear and profound uncertainty. I now try and take the view that it’s totally real and valid in the moment because that’s WHO I AM in the moment - if that makes me a child so be it that means ME as I am NOW needs to be accepted and cared about and validated, not some me stuck in a past time warp. That child and me, we’re both the same person. I’m saying that because I think I can hear you having to almost make excuses for your feelings and reactions by attributing them to an inner child, as if it’s not ok for the adult to have those kinds of feelings and reactions. Sorry I realize I’m attributing my own stuff to you there, but maybe it will make sense all the same?

Just reread your other threads and I think some of what I’m rabbiting on about here also serves as a reply to them. So won’t bore you by double posting, just want you to know I’ve read all that you’ve written, I’m glad you have found a place (here I mean) where you can start to say some of the things that need saying and actually be heard!

LL

By the way I love your signature!

P.P.S. now your signature has disappeared?

(((lamplighter)))

i can't tell y'all how happy i am to be here and have people who understand, and LL, i read your post carefully, and twice. yes, disowning selves is a big part of who i (we) am! i have many, and don't think i am bi-polar, but left untreated, could see how that could happen (my sister is adult onset schizo, so we grew up in the same house, alright!)

yes, what you are saying is true, i guess i feel more comfortable distancing me away from that childhood. really helpful what you said, don't worry about offending me, i sense you being careful...i can handle truth and do appreciate your kindness in expressing it.

thanks for your time in responding and i am looking for that thread to read. yes, i am a 'quantifier'...but even T1 said i hit 8.5 on a scale of 1 - 10, he couldn't understand why i wasn't balled up in a little corner of the room with all my stuff...and the subtlety of it just made it worse....said you know more clearly just who is the good guy and who is the bad guy when you are regularly beaten, etc. not to nullify those wounds that as of now, i see as much deeper...but my subtle 'chinese water torture' of abuse runs so much deeper in that it is imperceptible and i, like you seem to suggest, think it is 'me being too needy, too sensitive, etc.'

i don't know, i am still stuck on quantifying despite how many times i am assured 'it' is valid.

it is a journey, but i just know (childhood thought: magical thinking!) that it will be much better having y'all!!

y'all are so much in my world, yes, this arguing with 'them' is just like when mom and dad didn't believe you when you (i) was a kid. they believed my BEAUTIFUL schizophrenic sister! me?? i was a ratty skinny kid that liked bugs (they were nice to me!) and was not at all what my mom wanted!!

but what is so nuts, how the whole world, and past and present converge into one...

yes, we have no leg to stand on, we are the one in therapy, afterall.

stinks...and we pay them.

anyway, whatever.

just aimless rambling here, don't bother reading.

ultraviolet, what is 'gaslighting'??

and thank you for you response and your encouragement. i felt so burned by him. in fact, in that that happened in our second session, i didn't realize it til a few days later, but just thursday i went to my SECOND session with T3, and i was SO BRACED FOR A PROBLEM that even her sitting in a different chair upset me. she TUNED INTO IT (yea! for T3) and went to her 'usual' chair. i was so braced...it was 'as if' seconds sessions were the problem...'second session transference'!

and i agree with you, abuse/trauma people DON'T need to be monkey'd with. and to pull that stunt on session two would have been nuts. he was sleeping, no question. funny thing, i sent that letter and haven't heard a peep from him. he bills monthly, and it will be interesting to see if i get a bill at the end of the month.

i love reading all the nice things you had to say about me and the validation you gave me. thank you sweet ultraviolet!!

you are a kind person and i hope your therapy is going well