LL
well said.

I especially echo:

quote:

So ok, the bit that really concerns me - is that the therapies most at risk (so it seems to me) are those where the clients are really emotionally involved with the therapist, where the clients have been given so many signals and signs and even open actions and words that indicate a level of intimacy and closeness that you wouldn’t normally consider par for the course in therapy. This scares the hell out of me and as I’m just starting out with a new T I want to make sure that the same thing doesn’t happen to me. I’ve spent a very looooong time finding the right T, it would totally destroy me if this guy turned out to be just such a rug puller.

So my thoughts are that no matter how much I might want closeness and reciprocal emotional intimacy with a T, if he so much as hints at any kind of caring or emotional involvement on his part, I would read that as a BIG RED FLAG. I am eternally grateful to AG for having laid out so clearly just how a T can take attachment and make all those needy and painful and terrifying feelings and needs ok in therapy, WITHOUT ever openly stating his feelings about anything, without acting in a ‘normal’ human way in response to those feelings. IMO the caring has to be tacit and implicit, not overt.

I also don’t think it’s down to us to have to anticipate T’s getting too involved or too freaked out or whatever, but the conclusion I’m coming to is that we’re going to have to. That it’s down to us to have some idea of what is and isn’t ok in therapy in terms of emotional sharing and caring on T’s part so we can protect ourselves from the awful awful fallout of a T’s screwing up.

yeah, ditto.

just wanted to say as someone who has struggled with deep betrayal by t's - I think this was very well said.

I agree that what is in the "best interest for the client" isn't always - and it also not always in the best intereat of the therapist either...

I'm struggling to trust a newer t in my life and I have found that what I find the most helpful is when she makes it very clear what is hers and what is mine (so to speak). She owns her own agenda very overtly (like that I would trust more) and the thing that she does the best with me is reflect back to me things I say and guides me to notcie and walk through my own feelings with her... and without her taking over or caring so much she invades and then leaves because she went in too far and couldn't hack it. She keeps the therapy about me... she's just present with me in the worst moments and doesn't run and doesn't let her caring lead her to run me over and run over my boundaries like my old t did. She cared so much that it lead to very controlling behavior by her and now with every new t - I need to know most that they care enough to not run me over and try to take over, even if/when they care deeply about me. I need them to manage themselves well. Or they can't help me. ugh.

I wish what you wrote could be sent to a lot of T's. It is said that the best t is the one in t. I dunno, but a t who is willing to be aware of their own stuff is something I find really essential.

I wish T's would more often realize what is often so painfully obvious to many people. They are only human. Their job is not o tbe prefect or "cure" us the way they want and if they can't to ditch us. Their job is to help us walk through our pain while managing their own well enough they don't dump it on us or have to leave us.

I shouldn't know what are the legal rules with patient abandonment are, but I do.

Ok, I have gone off a a bit of a tangent here and have really ended up on another planet...

but you have really articulated the different realities of therapy very well Lamplighter.

LL, I think this is a really interesting thread and alot of therapists/counsellors would really benefit from reading it so they know how much harm they can cause their clients. I have only been here a short while and yet I have found it really sad the way some people here have been treated by therapists and they deserve so much more.

quote:

We have no option but to rely on a T’s being well trained, professional and in charge of their own self care and awareness of how much they can or can’t handle.

I think this comment really rings true because unfortunately there are those who do not apply this to their work (as many on here seem to have expereinced)Finding a T with these qualities can be so rewarding...if only there was a foolproof way to tell them apart.

MH, I do think it is possible for your T to love you and still not let her emotions get in the way of the work you are doing together if she is as in the quote above "in charge of her own self care and awareness". Don't lose hope!

Butterfly

ps...I believe that all T's would benefit from their own therapy so they can experience first hand what its like to be on the other side and that way they can ensure they have their own space for their issues and not feel the need to tread on the clients toes.

Lamplighter,

What a timely thread. I was about to start my own, as I am swimming in confusion right now about what to do about my T and a few things she has said/offered that have really triggered me and have me spinning on where she is at in the therapeutic relationship. Offering me post-therapy lunch dates, giving me a jewelry-style watchband she had made (in reciprocation of my giving her one a couple months before as a thank-you gift and it was a 'leftover' of the ones she'd made for her daughters and nieces, not specifically for me), telling me after I told her I'd seen photos of the inside of her home on the internet that if I drove by her house and came up to the door and knocked that she'd invite me in and that she trusted that I wouldn't come by in the middle of the night, and asking me what she could do to help me feel like she's more a part of my circle of friends. Needless to say, all of this has caused a lot of confusion and pain. I see her Wednesday and am panicked about what to do; talk to her about it, or let it go? Of course I know I need to talk to her, but it's scary stuff because I don't know where things will end up if I tell her that some of these things have frightened me and make me feel really insecure about my relationship with her and who I feel I can be as well as what I feel I can say in my therapy. At one time I desperately longed for a 'real' relationship with my T after therapy. To be completely honest, I still do, but part of me doesn't because wanting her friendship (and her knowing this and being okay with it and even being willing to grant that desire) has really messed with me. It keeps me from really doing therapy the right way. Right now while I am IN THERAPY, I just want her to be my T, not my friend. I hold back so much and have so much fear about what I say and do because I have allowed my own assumptions of what my T's needs might be and what I think/fear her feelings about things are to really interfere with what I allow to come out in therapy. I constantly worry that if I tell her how something she has done or said has affected me that I'm going to hurt her feelings or make her feel like she has harmed or failed me, and because I care so much for her I just don't want to ever do that. And I don't know whose fault this is, mine or hers? I don't know why I always want to protect my T from myself and my issues. I mean, why am I in therapy if I can't even bring myself to work on my stuff? If I were with a different T (that I wasn't so emotionally involved with/attached to) I know I could put all of this attachment stuff about my current T out there to them, but I can't put it out there to HER. Too freaking scary!!

quote:

I also don’t believe that a T suddenly one day realizes that they ‘can’t’ help a particular client anymore - they have to have had some inkling for some time prior and it doubly stinks that they don’t keep a closer eye on themselves and have a bit more honesty both with themselves and with their clients about the direction their own fears and inadequacies are taking them. That at least gives a client an opportunity to work through and come to terms with their T not being the all caring all trustworthy person they’ve been led to believe they are, with the T still present.

I don't believe this either, LL. My T has asked me several times if I want to be transferred. I finally told her that it really bothered me when she asked me this because I've told her every time "NO", and she knows I don't want another T. I told her it makes me feel like she wants to be rid of me. She told me that is not why she has asked me, but rather it is because she wants to see me get my needs met and see me heal. She also said she doesn't want to disappoint me or let me down. I guess this is her way of saying that she doesn't feel herself to be as adequate as she should be with attachment issues without actually coming out and saying it. She has said she "thinks" she can help me if I am willing to help her.(???) That wasn't super reassuring, but I guess I have continued with her with the knowledge that I am taking a risk working with a T that doesn't have the 'skills' in attachment injury work. Something in my gut won't let me go, even though I wonder sometimes if I would be better of with another T.

quote:

So ok, the bit that really concerns me - is that the therapies most at risk (so it seems to me) are those where the clients are really emotionally involved with the therapist, where the clients have been given so many signals and signs and even open actions and words that indicate a level of intimacy and closeness that you wouldn’t normally consider par for the course in therapy.

Yep. It concerns me too, mostly because I feel like I'm included here. And what does one do when they find themselves here? Run for their lives? Part of me wants to run, but a bigger part of me says "Stay". I just don't know which part of me is the 'right one' to listen to.

quote:

I also don’t think it’s down to us to have to anticipate T’s getting too involved or too freaked out or whatever, but the conclusion I’m coming to is that we’re going to have to. That it’s down to us to have some idea of what is and isn’t ok in therapy in terms of emotional sharing and caring on T’s part so we can protect ourselves from the awful awful fallout of a T’s screwing up.

You know, LL--that is the main reason I'm here on this forum is initially I had lots of questions about therapy and what is my part and what is my T's part. What's okay and what's not? Too bad there's not some manual for all Ts and patients/clients so we all know the standard and there's no questions about gray areas. It would make things so much more simple, wouldn't it? UGH. The confusion alone sometimes makes me wonder why I'm still in therapy. Is there hope for healing, or am I just stuck forever in this attachment hell? And even though my T has promised me she's not bailing on me and that if there's any termination it's going to be me doing it, I still live in fear that if I do or say the wrong thing, or if she finds herself too emotionally involved with me (which I am starting to fear more and more all the time now), what will really end up happening? Yeah, it's scary.

MH,

I agree with Butterfly. I think your T can love you and still hold her boundaries and keep herself where she needs to be and be able to still help you. Please don't freak out just because she has told you she loves you. She hasn't shown any indication otherwise (that you have indicated, anyway) that she has boundary issues or her own emotional issues that could cause problems for you in your therapy. I think you're good with your T!


MTF

MH... I'm not suggesting in any way that people leave their Ts just because a T expresses care and concern for them. That in and of itself is not a danger signal. Your T sounds like she has her act together and can hold boundaries if need be.

**** TRIGGER WARNING *************************

LL.. this is a great thread and topic and I appreicate your anger on my behalf as one of those who is still suffering from a horendous and damaging termination. I still have no answers, no closure and I cannot process what happened or move on due to my T still kinda hanging onto my stuff... including dangling insurance issues and some of my belongings. He will not communicate with me and I don't know what to do next.

My T told me many many times, put it in writing for me, promised and swore he would not terminate me. He said he'd always be there and that if we had a problem we could work it out. He also promised me on numerous occasions that even though he was not an attachment/trauma T that he would step up to the plate and learn what he needed and work to help me. That he was willing to read things I sent him (he didn't) and finally I gave him CDs to listen to and he started to do just that and then stopped for some reason. He agreed that we had a strong connection and that the relationship was important to the work. Yeah right. He told me I needed to work with a trauma T for "your own good" and I'm doing this "in your best interest" and that I care for and about you and I want the best for you. We had this conversation a few times but only a surface discussion nothing serious. Then it seemed to become very urgent that he make me leave and I had no real warning as things were going fairly well for me. He even wrote to me that I was making significant progress and that he was proud of me and that he needed to praise me for my new abilities to do this or that. I felt secure and finally I told him a month before he handed me the list of other Ts and told me to go find one... I told him that I had finally felt safe enough to stop worrying he would ask me to leave and now I had so much more room to work on other things. And soon as I made myself vulnerable I was sucker punched.

Now this is MY story and I'm not saying it will happen to others on here and I know this is triggering for all of us. I'm sorry but I struggle with what LL is thinking as well. How do we really know we can trust a T to act in OUR best interest and not THEIRS. Even though my T said he was "helping" me... I just think he was helping himself... otherwise why have I been banned and why has he offered no help in my transition... the one he told me he wanted to make as smooth as possible for me?

I think Ts rather work with people who have no problems except for some easy non emotional things. When things get tough instead of using self-care and getting consultation or supervision they bail on the client. I think it needs to be mandatory that Ts/Ps have years of psychoanalysis to get rid of their junk before they can touch another person's issues and feelings.

Sorry for sounding so negative but the stories of abandonment continue to pile up here and it's very disheartening for me who has suffered so terribly to see others suffer and also for me in my search for a new T... I just cannot seem to allow myself to trust anyone anymore.

Thanks LL.
TN

quote:

So ok, the bit that really concerns me - is that the therapies most at risk (so it seems to me) are those where the clients are really emotionally involved with the therapist, where the clients have been given so many signals and signs and even open actions and words that indicate a level of intimacy and closeness that you wouldn’t normally consider par for the course in therapy.

First, I would like to say that I share LL's concern and heartfelt sympathies for those that have recently (or in the past) found themselves in the situation of losing their T or being suddenly abandoned by their T.

Now, I would like to reply to a few points in the original post. First, the part I have quoted above. I am one (as you all know) that is in a non-traditional type of therapy. I am emotionally involved with my therapist, she uses actions that show caring (hugs, holding, etc.), she tells me that she cares (but is always careful not to use words like love) and clearly has an emotional investment in our work. Having said that, this is all part of her training and for me has been vital to my healing. I'm not saying that this is the only way to work, clearly AG had a very healing and satisfying relationship with her T without anything physical. However, he clearly had emotional investment (within the boundaries of the therapy room) in their work. I think to ask that a T will remain blank slate and have no emotional attachment or reaction to a client is expecting them to be less than human. My T has always been very steadfast in her boundaries. I know what they are and where they are and our interactions have always (even in disconnects) been in my best interest and have been healing.

My T was required during her extensive training beyond her master's degree to get her own therapy and do her own work. The very same type that she uses with me. She continues to seek professional and personal guidance on a regular basis from professionals that are highly qualified and trained in this type of therapy that we do.

Anyway, I could be back here some day eating my words and absolutely crushed that my T has had a sudden change of heart and has dumped me, but to be honest I would be more shocked about that than winning the lottery. I know that it is hard for others to hear positive T stories and I'm sorry that my talking about my T has potentially caused issues or triggering for anyone else. That certainly is the last thing that I want to do. I'm here like everyone else is, trying to work my way through T and sometimes it is bumpy and sometimes it is great.

I talked to my T today about the attachment to her and the feelings that I have regarding being held and comforted by her. It was an excellent discussion and both the discussion and the comforting have been a huge catalyst in getting in touch with the feelings of being abandoned and rejected by my own mother. It has helped me tremendously to feel what the caring feels like (both emotionally and physically) and has given me the tangible example of what it is that I am really grieving.

Anyway, my very long winded post here is to say that I've been in many different kinds of therapy and I've fired about 4 therapists in my life. This is the first of this type of therapy that I've done and it has hands down been the best and most healing experience that I have ever had in therapy. It is changing my body, my brain, my cells and my life. Does it require that I trust my T? Yes, but that trust was earned and not forced and allowed to develop at a body level. Would I be devastated if this relationship ended, regardless of the reason? Yes, absolutely. Do I still think it is worth taking the risk? Most definitely without a doubt, YES!

Many years ago, I had a P who was diagnosed with cancer. I was given one session to deal with it. Then POOF it was over. Complicated, eh. I continued for a while with his partner, and I hated him (partially because he wasn't my P, but also, I just didn't relate to him at all), and strangly, he NEVER discussed the abrupt end to the previous therapy. The P died two years later, and I did go to his funeral. But I'm not sure I have ever dealt with it.

Wow these are all really interesting and deep posts. Lots of things to think about (oh if only there were more certainties in this therapy business!)

I really want to apologize for upsetting anyone - the last thing anyone needs is to have stuff shoved in their face that suddenly makes them think ohmygod things aren’t how they seem.

I need to explain that the stuff I wrote is very much about me and my fears in therapy - I have a HUGE fear of believing that someone loves/likes/cares about me, all sorts of bad stuff happens to me when I let myself think that, and for me a T who does attempt to convey their own personal positive feeings for me (ha ha that’s assuming such a thing could actually happen) would not only terrify the hell out of me, but would make me deeply suspicious that they would not be able to ‘contain’ all my feelings (many of which would be and are profoundly negative about T himself).

I’m really sorry I don’t mean to come on and act like people are posting to me specifically, so I’m not going to pick over everyone else’s posts (promise!) just wanted to make it clear that I didn’t mean to upset anyone or make veiled references to anything - I was just venting really about something that really bothers me. So just want to reply specifically to a couple of posts:


MH I’m so sorry this has pushed you into such profound doubting and fear. Just because your T has told you and shown you and you’ve been able to feel that she loves you - wow that doesn’t mean ipso facto she’s going to dump you or reject you or suddenly withdraw. It’s perfectly possible that good Ts exist who know exactly what they are doing when they tell their feelings about a client to a client. (There is a perfect example with STRM’s T )

It’s perfectly possible that she deliberately and knowingly has shown you love and care for sound therapeutic reasons, not because she’s suddenly lost it or is getting overinvolved. There’s a lot of fear in your post - maybe more to do with fearing that she’s suddenly going to withdraw something that’s so important to you, than that she’s crossed boundaries or something. At the least, would you be able to talk to her about this? Say your fears? Chances are that she will be able to reassure you enough so that you aren’t doubting and freaking about it. I hope so.



MTF you’re in a really confusing situation there - I know you’ve mentioned some of these things before about what’s going on with your T and I’ve never really known how to understand it - so many messages from your T that seem to fall outside the ‘usual’ standards for therapy. I think if a T said some of the things to me that your T has said to you, like the following:

quote:

She told me that is not why she has asked me, but rather it is because she wants to see me get my needs met and see me heal. She also said she doesn't want to disappoint me or let me down. I guess this is her way of saying that she doesn't feel herself to be as adequate as she should be with attachment issues without actually coming out and saying it. She has said she "thinks" she can help me if I am willing to help her.(???)

I, being paranoid as hell, would surely freak - it all sounds (to ME, please bear in mind) that somewhere down the track she could fall back on this by putting the onus on ME for not asking to be transferred, as if I were the one who was supposed to know how to get my needs met and how to heal. And the comment about not wanting to disappoint or let down - well again in my paranoid interpretation that would be her putting the responsibility on ME because she’s effectively warned me that it’s potentially possible.

Also that she keeps offering you out of therapy suggestions - well on one hand I can see how that could really make you feel loved and accepted, on the other, it seems to blur the therapeutic boundaries. I can see how you would be really anxious about discussing this with her, because it’s perfectly possible she could then blanketly withdraw ALL of it, either out of hurt and defensiveness, or a ‘realization’ that her fluid boundaries are actually not therapeutic. But that it’s stopping you from being as open and honest as you need to, remains an issue.

It’s obvious you want to stay with her, I would never suggest that anyone leave their T just because there are some things going on that seem to go beyond a ‘normal’ therapeutic relationship. It sounds to me though like you’re going to have to, at some point, open up bit by bit about how these overtures of a relationship outside therapy on her part are making you feel. It can either strengthen the relationship or point up weaknesses in it - but spinning in the places your T put you isn’t really something you can go on dealing with on your own indefinitely.

I hope it does work out for you, and that the things happening with your T actually turn out to be good for you. There’s no reason why they shouldn’t



TN I’m so pleased you felt able to post, yes your ghastly experience with your T was one of the things that prompted this thread. I think your T acted in SUCH a damaging way that left me thinking hell there is one T who is doing nothing but thinking of his own interests. I know you are effectively trapped by your own feelings towards him, I wish really wish that you could find some on-your-side anger to help you with the pain of what you’re going through.

Everything he said and did, gave every indication that he was adamant he would be there for you, so to suddenly pull the rug like he did I think was a terrible betrayal. Gave the lie to it all. And you must be reeling from having to backtrack over the whole relationship doubting now whether he really meant it or not, wondering where the signs were that could have showed you what was ‘really’ going on. I find it breathtakingly awful that he won’t even speak to you about any of it, and that equally he won’t ‘let you go’. I hope so very much that you can find a way soon to get some answers from him one way or the other.

By the way, I miss your posts . I hope you feel strong enough again soon to come back and post more on forum - it might even help if you were able to talk about what you’re going through - at least here no-one is going to minimize your pain and bewilderment (not intentionally anyway.)



Hals that's awful! Not much chance to feel angry about being left with such a reason. It sucks too that you weren't given a chance to talk about it. Yeah I'll bet it's still sitting in your mind as something that needs working through. Hope your current T is there for you.

LL

quote:

I need to explain that the stuff I wrote is very much about me and my fears in therapy - I have a HUGE fear of believing that someone loves/likes/cares about me, all sorts of bad stuff happens to me when I let myself think that, and for me a T who does attempt to convey their own personal positive feeings for me (ha ha that’s assuming such a thing could actually happen) would not only terrify the hell out of me, but would make me deeply suspicious that they would not be able to ‘contain’ all my feelings (many of which would be and are profoundly negative about T himself).

LL,

I can see where this would bother you and to be honest, if my T had been the way she is with me now in the very beginning I would have been highly suspicious as well! I would have thought she was trying to manipulate me or that it wasn't genuine on her part. To this day, even though I have a very good relationship with my T, it is still hard to hear her say she cares or to allow myself to let that caring in. I feel like I don't deserve it, I'm taking something that isn't mine etc. However, I think that the therapy and healing are in this very experience. It has been a very slow and gradual process to trust my T, to feel her caring and to allow for room that someone has positive thoughts about me and cares what happens to me. We have spent 206.25 hours in 18 months together. Yes, I just added up my therapy time. Why? To show how long it has taken to get to this point in traditional "therapy units" as AG likes to call them. My point is that if I were to go one hour per week for 50 weeks out of the year, I've had the equivalent of over 4 years of therapy with my T in 18 months. It wasn't until the last 6 months that I really started to let myself trust her and believe that the help would be there and that it was ok to feel her caring. It has taken me that long to slowly allow myself to show feelings and experience the really tough emotions and realize that T is going to be there, help contain me and that the feelings won't engulf me and can't hurt me.

My very long and rambling point is that it takes time and to beat yourself up about your lack of trust or suspicions of distrust isn't going to help you. You are going to need to get into your right brain at some point and let your body adjust to the help being there and feeling the caring. Sorry, that sounded bossy and that isn't how I mean it. I'm just saying that this isn't an intellectual process at the end of the day.

quote:

So my thoughts are that no matter how much I might want closeness and reciprocal emotional intimacy with a T, if he so much as hints at any kind of caring or emotional involvement on his part, I would read that as a BIG RED FLAG. I am eternally grateful to AG for having laid out so clearly just how a T can take attachment and make all those needy and painful and terrifying feelings and needs ok in therapy, WITHOUT ever openly stating his feelings about anything, without acting in a ‘normal’ human way in response to those feelings. IMO the caring has to be tacit and implicit, not overt.

Sorry I'm late to the party LL, the work shedule continues insane and my husband is working 12 hour night shifts this week. I've been wanting to respond to this thread but just haven't had time. I think this is a great topic and agree with a lot of what you've said. I do think emotional involvement is an area we need to pay attention to as I do believe that a good therapist has to maintain a certain (perceived) detachment in order to be effective. If this was just about being cared for and loved, then a friendship or romantic relationship would be much more healing. But what makes the difference in therapy is that it's only about the patients needs. That means that the T cannot afford to allow themselves to NEED any gratification from the relationship. That doesn't mean there won't be any. That they won't have feelings for the client, take joy in their progress, look forward to seeing them, want to be liked by them. But they cannot NEED that. Because they have to be able to say difficult things to a client that the client might not want to hear and if they're worried about being liked they'll pull their punches. And what gets scary if they start to offer more emotional involvement such as friendship is that the client then has something to lose like in all their other relationships and they stop being as honest as they need to be so they don't "lose" the therapists love. My therapist keeping that boundary clear right through to the end was essential. All that said, I don't want to give the wrong impression. My T was very warm and human and emotionally accessible. He would react to what I would tell him, sometimes with tears. And he was very open about being a falliable human being who also struggled with problems (we just didn't talk about what those problems were and I wasn't allowed to take care of him EVER). One of my most striking encounters with him was once when we were discussing the boundaries, and my T told me, quite movingly, that he couldn't allow himself to need anything from me. I may have imagined it since I so badly wanted it to be there, but there was genuine pain in his voice about having to hold those boundaries. I honestly believe that under other circumstances, it would have been easy for us to be friends. But that's not what we are, and I deeply understand and accept that my T worked so hard to hold those boundaries because that is what I needed. And LL I'm glad that what I have shared has been helpful, thank you for saying so.

quote:

OMG, it makes sense and is hitting me very hard all of a sudden. I have never wanted to believe that it was really 100% necessary for AG's T to be quite so firm. I just wanted to believe he was being overly cautious. But just look at how many of the abandoning T's are suspected of, or known to be, very emotionally involved. LL, I know you weren't trying to trigger anyone, just posting the truth as you see it...as a kind warning maybe...but it is so awful to hear right now because just in the past two or three days since my last session I've been thinking, "My T really loves me. Wow, she really does. She's said it more than once now. When did it start? When did it happen that I finally succeeded in carving out a spot for me in her heart?" The thought was comforting to me until I read this thread. Now I am totally freaking out that it is a sign she is destined to leave me high and dry. They aren't capable of loving us and sticking with us for the long haul, are they? But I don't want anything to do with the detached style of therapy. So I am totally screwed!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe I should leave her first, like what TN suggested in Sheychen's thread. It's bound to happen if she loves me, and if I know that then I can't continue to open up to her anymore.

MH,
Slow down. I think it was really good for me that my T was so firm. But a lot of that has to do with the fact that I experienced repeated boundary violations as a child, never had good boundaries modeled, and it was so important to my healing and safety, that those lines were really clear. Trust me there were times where having both parental and erotic feelings for my T had a serious "EWWWW" factor. So that meant that for me, my Ts boundaries really worked. That does NOT mean that every T has to, or should, keep those exact boundaries. I believe consistency is the most important thing, that you know what to expect. And a T expressing their feelings is not neccessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't stop the client from expressing theirs. The trouble sets in when a T implicitly promises something they cannot provide (notice I did NOT say that they didn't want to, but can't). But when we get emotionally involved, we WANT to be able to help, we want to be able to make a difference. An emotionally involved T can cross that line, let themselves get too involved and that's how they burn out. Which is when it can fall apart so disastrously for the client. As long as a T is clear about their boundaries and about what they can and cannot do for the client, consistently, over the long haul, then I don't think it's so important exactly where those boundaries fall. So your T can say those things to you but not be in danger of making the therapy about her. But I will say this, the fact that you're feeling this way is very important to bring up and talk about. Anything that makes you feel less than safe should be talked about. I just want to urge you not to feel like your healing has to look exactly like mine, or your T behave exactly like mine.

quote:

I am one (as you all know) that is in a non-traditional type of therapy. I am emotionally involved with my therapist, she uses actions that show caring (hugs, holding, etc.), she tells me that she cares (but is always careful not to use words like love) and clearly has an emotional investment in our work. Having said that, this is all part of her training and for me has been vital to my healing. I'm not saying that this is the only way to work, clearly AG had a very healing and satisfying relationship with her T without anything physical. However, he clearly had emotional investment (within the boundaries of the therapy room) in their work. I think to ask that a T will remain blank slate and have no emotional attachment or reaction to a client is expecting them to be less than human. My T has always been very steadfast in her boundaries. I know what they are and where they are and our interactions have always (even in disconnects) been in my best interest and have been healing.

STRM,
I justed wanted to say "Preach it, sister!" But seriously, this is EXACTLY what I meant! I think we have very different Ts who work differently, but your T is obviously helping you to heal and my T helped me to heal. Therapy is not a "one size fits all" solution. (And I totally agree that my T had emotional investment. I'm not sure I quite comprehended how deep it ran until our final appt, but it was always clear, even though at times I couldn't perceive it, that it was really him there in the room with me.) But here is what I think they have in common. They have consistent boundaries and they set them in a place that they know they can, over the long haul, continue to provide what they start out providing. Your Ts use of touch is part of how she works and she knows how to work with it so it's integrated into her practice. It's not something she felt pressured to offer you because she had strong feelings, it's something she offers her patients. I also see a great resemblance in the self-care. My T has made comments that made it clear that he's done work in therapy and I know that he's good about self-care. I believe that he is conscientious about getting his needs met outside of therapy so that he doesn't turn to his clients. I also know he has a very close working relationship with the therapist next door (he actually calls him his partner; they cover for each other's vacations. And he's a great guy) so that when he needs to be away and have a break, he can do so knowing that his responsibilities are covered. Again, I don't think it's so much that the actual boundaries are set in the same places as it is that they are consistent and maintainable.

quote:

This is the first of this type of therapy that I've done and it has hands down been the best and most healing experience that I have ever had in therapy. It is changing my body, my brain, my cells and my life. Does it require that I trust my T? Yes, but that trust was earned and not forced and allowed to develop at a body level. Would I be devastated if this relationship ended, regardless of the reason? Yes, absolutely. Do I still think it is worth taking the risk? Most definitely without a doubt, YES!

Just awesome! I love your relationship with your T and I agree about the risk. May I say one more thing to you very gently STRM? It's a very good thing and beneficial for more people than you can realize, that you talk about your relationship with your T. She sounds like an excellent T and I think that it's important for people to hear about what a good theraputic relationship can look like. And that they don't all look exactly alike. I'm really glad that you've found someone to help you heal. And it's ok, and a good thing, to talk about that healing.

Drifty,
I just wanted to say hi and welcome to the forums! And I'm sorry about that abrupt ending, but even more saddened by the fact that your next P didn't explore your feelings with you. One thing I really appreciated about my present T was that when my first T retired after we worked together for a very long time, he was one of the few people that recognized what a huge deal it was for me (my husband and I were seeing him for marital counseling, but I was not seeing him indivdually at the time.) He asked me about it several times as I was going through the ending, and I also spoke to him a number of times after I started seeing him indvidually. And I had gotten four months notice and plenty of time to process with my first T! I would bring this up some time in your own therapy. Endings and goodbyes tend to be quite significant for us emotionally and are a very good thing to look at. I'm glad you're posting and am looking forward to getting to know you.


AG

Lamplighter,

Thank you for replying to me in your post. At least there are a few here that aren't totally turned off by me and my issues with my T. I appreciate your support--it means a lot.

Hugs,
MTF

MTF,
I wasn't turned off by you or your issues with your T; I'm sorry that you felt overlooked. I thought that what I said to other people was also addressing your struggles, but it was not my intention to slight you. I have always appreciated all the support you've given me and I'm sorry that you haven't felt supported in turn.

I hesitated to say too much to you as I do see a lot of cause for concern in your Ts behavior. There's not any one thing in particular, mind you, it's just adding all the behaviors together. Offering a post therapy relationship, saying she would invite you into her home, gifts, and trying to make you feel like you're part of her "circle of friends" all seem like a blurring of the boundaries to me. The fact that these actions are confusing you, making you feel unsafe and the worst part to me, making you feel like there are topics and feelings which are off limits are all problematic and will interfere with your ability to heal. You have to be able to examine what goes on in the relationship in order to understand how you "do" relationships and what feelings are evoked in relationship to your attachment figure. This is scary work at best, and you need to feel secure that you can express any and all of your feelings. And the fact that she is also saying she doesn't want to disappoint you or let you down. Pardon my bluntness but who the hell cares? If she has fears about doing either of those things, then she needs to seek out support in dealing with them. Not express them to you so that you carry the burden of not being able to express when if she disappoints you or lets you down. Her needs are entering into the room and therapy doesn't leave room for both the therapist's and the client's feelings.

I think your misgivings are worth looking at. At a minimum, I definitely think you need to discuss your fears about not being able to say things and feeling like you need to take care of her, and you fear being abandoned, need to be discussed openly. Only you can decide if the risk is worth it, and I know how very difficult and painful it can be to even contemplate leaving someone you're attached to, but you have several examples of just how very painful and damaging it can be if a therapist isn't equipped to handle the boundaries and attachment issues. You're spending your time, your energy, your money and you're emotional investment in order to heal. If you can't even speak freely, it seems like all that could be going to waste.

Please know that this is an outside opinion based only on what you've said. I've never met your T nor do I come close to knowing her the way you do. It's easy to sit at a distance and make pronouncements about what to do, another thing to have to decide something that will affect you so deeply. I trust that you can trust yourself to make the best decision for you.

Again, I'm sorry that you felt overlooked.

AG

AG,

What you said to others did address my struggles, and I know you had no intention of slighting me. I just feel like I open a really big, nasty can of worms every time I mention my issues with my T and unfortunately this is the only place I have where I can even 'talk' about this difficulty in my life. So it is hard when I try to seek support and feel like instead I just turn people away. I can understand that what I am dealing with with my T can be triggering, as some people think they would just love to have offered what my T has offered, but it's actually becoming quite confusing and painful, and I know others probably think she is a terrible T and that I should be running the other direction. I guess my predicament poses a difficult situation for me and others, too.

I'm sorry if I seemed to be pointing fingers. I actually feel a general sense of scaring people off with my issues, and there is no one person I feel that from. Please don't take my post personally. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me. Your "bluntness" was greatly needed and is appreciated.

MTF

quote:

TN I’m so pleased you felt able to post, yes your ghastly experience with your T was one of the things that prompted this thread. I think your T acted in SUCH a damaging way that left me thinking hell there is one T who is doing nothing but thinking of his own interests. I know you are effectively trapped by your own feelings towards him, I wish really wish that you could find some on-your-side anger to help you with the pain of what you’re going through.

Everything he said and did, gave every indication that he was adamant he would be there for you, so to suddenly pull the rug like he did I think was a terrible betrayal. Gave the lie to it all. And you must be reeling from having to backtrack over the whole relationship doubting now whether he really meant it or not, wondering where the signs were that could have showed you what was ‘really’ going on. I find it breathtakingly awful that he won’t even speak to you about any of it, and that equally he won’t ‘let you go’. I hope so very much that you can find a way soon to get some answers from him one way or the other.

LL... thank you for articulating this. What my T did was damaging in the extreme not only to me but to my son and my family as well. I was doing well in my therapy, feeling optimistic, finally making myself vulnerable enough to tell him that I completely trusted him not to abandon me and then....a month later he pulls the rug. As you say... I am now thinking that if he lied about abandoning me what else is he lying about. Did he lie about his observation about my "significant" progress? Did he lie when he told me that I was strong and brave and intelligent? Was he just BSing me about him caring about me? Did he lie when he told me I was an "awesome" mother or that I was "wonderful" or "charming" or "downright delightful" because he said all of those things to me. Did he lie when he said there is nothing I could tell him that would make him turn away from me? Did he lie when he said he would not judge me? He he lie when he said that the abuse was not my fault?

You can see that I'm left in total confusion. I don't know what to trust or what to believe. How do I know the next T won't do the same? Oh they can say... that was him and I'm different...yeah well why should I believe that? Would I ever be able to allow another T to really know me? Will I be sitting there thinking and remembering what happened when I told my T these things?

The trauma and abuse I suffered as a child pales in comparison to the damage he has done to me. I went into therapy with hope and left with despair and hopelessness and feeling like love is evil and I'm evil. I don't want anyone to care about me nor do I ever want to care about another human being. Because I know it will all arbitrarily be taken away from me.

Today I called my T and left him a message that I felt he really needed to call me to make an appointment for my son to see him because of certain remarks my son has made to me recently. I told him we need to be adults and put the interests of my child in front of our own anger or disruption. That his needs come first. Well he did not have the guts to call me back but he sent me this long email telling me we need to set up a "transition" session for my son and he will refer him out to someone else and that he wants to meet me and my husband and son (notice he won't see me alone) and we need to be supportive of his desire to refer away my son and to show my son that this is the right decision. My son is 10 BTW and is quite attached to my T. His excuse for this travesty is that he cannot treat my son because of the dual relationship he had/has with me and because lately I had sucked up all of my son's therapy time talking about ME and that he feels that my son is no longer able to confide in HIM because HE feels that my son is upset that I had a relationship with my T he needs to go off and develop his own separate relationship with a T (did I mention that he is 10?) so that he can grow and move ahead on his own.

This is ALL about what my T needs not what my son needs or what my family needs. He is too much of a coward to sit there with my son while my son tells him that his mother cries all the time, is no longer the same mother, who hides in her room, who yells too much and who sits like a stone at baseball games because she has to make herself so numb as not to sit there bawling her eyes out remembering the time her T came to her son's game, or the times they talked baseball or the times we all worked together to reach the goal of getting my son intersted in a team sport. He can't do that because he knows HE is responsible for destroying this child's mother.

As for me... I cannot sit there in this session with my son and husband and support this decision that he made to make his own life easier while my son cries because he will miss him. I tried to touch on this subject tonight with my son about leaving therapy and he got visibly upset saying he needs to talk to Dr.X and he misses him and he has so much to tell him. I asked if he would maybe like to see another T and he refused, shaking his head and saying NO NO NO NO. So I dropped the subject. Does anyone is their right mind think I will ever allow my son to speak to another therapist? It's bad enough he destroyed me but a child? I would never take that risk again with anyone. I'm the one who will have to deal with my son's tears and sadness over this, not him. I can't even deal with my own. I have been crying all day and my boss sent me home because I was such a mess. I drove to my Ts office and sat in the back parking lot where he can't see me and cried for hours. The pain never goes and it gets worse and I just don't know what to do anymore. Nothing helps and everywhere I look I see my T. It's driving me to the brink of madness.

I have not answered his email. He wants me to let him know about a date to meet. My impulse was to make the appointment and then show up alone to have my say but I was advised not to do that as I may get hurt. I don't know how I can sit through a BS "transition" meeting with my son so upset without resorting to slugging my T for hurting me and my family so badly. I'm not sure the damage he has done to all of us can ever be undone.

Thanks for your comments LL. Aren't you sorry now that I showed up to post?

TN

((((TN))))

I and many others on the board will never be sorry when you decide to post. I feel so sorry for you and your son and your whole family. I wish there was something I could do to help. How has your husband taken the news that your son won't be seeing his T anymore? Does he know how upset he is? Could your husband do the transition session without you? I know that would be painful for you but maybe it would help your son? I am tossing out thoughts that are probably useless because I know that your husband probably isn't aware of the pain you are suffering because of T's abandonment but I hope he can help your son. Post or pm me if you want to vent further. I've always felt very close to you because of your support and because I like to imagine you live near me (in the north). How's that for projection.
Love and concern only,

MTF: I am not in the least turned off by your situation with your T or you talking about it. I really feel for you as you are in quite a bind and it is such a tug of war between your heart and your head from what I gather. I just wanted to say that I hope you continue to post and I hope that I can get my act together to reply more as well.

TN: No, I will never be sorry if you post. I'm glad that you have and that you are reaching out for support. I continue to be shocked by your T's behavior and I feel so bad for your entire family that this happened. Please keep us posted with what you decide to do or if you answer T's email. It's a really tough situation and I think of you often.

TN - I only have a moment but was reading this thread and I'm so glad you posted.

I just wante dto say that I know it is hard to believe, and that it by bno means changes the horor of your T action's (I can't even begin to respond because it makes me so mad!) but even if your T lied, these things are VERY true about you:

You have made significant progress.
You are strong and brave and intelligent.
You are an awesome mom.
You are wonderful, charming, and downright delightful.

I know - I get it - I understand why it's hard to believe those things are true from a T who adbandoned you. I have wondered and questioned simillar things about my old-ex-somewhat nutty-t

But you know what? No matter what, no matter if your t was telling the truth about what HE thought, THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE ABOUT YOU!

period.

I have read what you have posted over time, I KNOW those things are true about you.

And I know that it doesn't make it easier to figure out what the heck to do now and how to trust a t again... I struggle to trust too - very badly, especially t's of all people.

(oh ugh, to have your t treat your 10 year old that way? um, yeah... YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE INVOLVED IN HIS THERAPY. YOU ARE HIS MAMA. I'm sorry I can't respond really any further because all my words are curse words.)

Btw, did I mention you are a wonderful mom? And you are a very strong and brave and amazing person?

I do struggle to trust again, but I am learning... I believe in time you will too.

Not all t suck.

Your old t is the one who is doing awful things... not you... and I know that is super hard, if not impossible to believe. It's still true and I'm still gonna say it... You rock, and I hope, as painful as it is, you find a new t asap.

and did I mention you are amazing and really beautifully strong and brave?

many hugs,
~jane

Thank you everyone for saying that you are not sorry when I post. That helped to hear. I just feel like I'm so depressed, bitter and useless that I should just stay away from OF.

JD... thank you for all those kind words and thoughts about who I am. I'm not sure they are true but it's nice to hear. I'm not sure about the strength as I feel like I'm running on fumes these days... there is nothing left inside of me. Like I'm slowly fading away. I wish I could believe that my T didn't lie to me. There is just so much about this situation that I do not understand. I wish I could talk to new T5 ("B") but he is on vaction now. I will see him next Friday. Seems like such a long wait but I should be used to this now.

Mostly I'm just scared. Really scared all the time and I truly wish I could stop shaking for a little while.

I have not answered the email and I won't until I can discuss with B next week. He can just sit and stew over it as he made me do. I have to do what is necessary to protect my son.

Thanks all
TN