AMEN!!!

That is all I am going to say for now...

KS

I absolutely agree with you. I have my psychiatrist who I believe is a christian and sometimes even brings up the subject of God from time to time. I have my T that has not mentioned God at all and does not seem interested in talking about it when I bring the subject up and then I have my christian counselor. I believe that all three has helped me greatly. My T gives me stuff to use that can help my situation even though its not centered around God. The one thing I have come to realize is different that my T and P will say that the transference and thinking about having sex with my P is normal cause in psychology it is normal, but my christian counselor will point out that it may be normal in this world but the Bible says if you think about another man in that way then you are committing adultery, which gives me even more of a desire to change it.
I believe that God works through all kinds of people and relationships and puts us in the places we need to be to get the help we need. But I also believe that God wants His children to go to Him for help and guidance and that if we start to put something or someone ahead of Him then He might remove that person from your life. That is not how he always does things but sometimes it is necessary. It does scare me that He could do that with my P.
I also believe that just like my christian counselor tells me, that I may just be seeing my T and P so that they can see this great change in my life that was done by God and that might lead them into a relationship with God. I think that would be the most amazing outcome and so worth going through all the pain and suffering I have had.

As far as answering prayers, I believe that God loves to give His children things and usually does more than He is asked for. It is not always in our timing or done how we think it should but He knows what is best for us since He can seen into the future and we cant. One example is that a little over a year ago we lost custody of our daughter for almost 2 months. She lived with my parents an hour and a half away. It was the worst possible situation we could have imagined and we spent nights crying and praying for her to come home and really thought we would get her home sooner than we did. We prayed with our pastors at church. We did not understand why we were having to go through this and did not understand what good could come from it. But now looking back we see that if we would not have gone through what we did then my daughter would not be with the therapist she has now, she would not have made the progress she has made, and we would have gotten the support that we so desperately needed. And we have it on record with CPS that nothing is wrong with our daughter being with us and have friends now that are CPS workers who did our case that will help us in the future if we ever need it, plus our church ended up paying for the psychological evaluation that we needed to get our daughter back and that is how we found out what was wrong with her. We couldnt have had the evaluation cause we couldnt afford it, but because CPS required it and our church knew that because of our prayer times, we got what we needed. None of this happened the way we wanted it to and we did not understand but God gave us what we needed and more and did it in the way that was best for us. And I also believe that He knew I needed a break from the chaos that was going on in my home from my daughter so that I could be able to deal with things when she came home.
I also believe that God always answers every prayer of His children. The answer is yes, no or wait but there is always an answer. May not be what we always want but He gives us what is best for us!

One of the things our pastor always said to people at our church when they complain about how their life is going or they dont understand it or its just not fair or they dont deserve a certain bad thing, he would always ask "do you really want what you deserve?" And it just makes you realize that if we got what we deserved we wouldnt ever make it to Heaven but because God loves us He has made that possible. And He only wants the best for us and looking back on most situations I can see His hand in it and how what I went through was helpful for me or someone else.

And often the hard times we go through arent just for us but also for other people cause seeing how we react when we go through it can help bring other people closer to Him.

Hi Monte, Pippi, KS, MTF and SG,
You are talking about my favorite subject. There is not doubt about his strength and presence in therapy. I too am a believer, but my T- although a strong believer in God, has a different opinion about Jesus.

I had a 1 hour session that my T gave me over 2 hours for, so I am quite tired. I will address this topic tomorrow after skiing (not w/ T)
Strummergirl- thanks for bringing up a great subject. Night.

My pastor does like stepping on people's toes a little bit, or actually a lot. He has no problem telling it like it is because he says he would rather tell the truth and have every one mad at him than to get to Heaven and have to try to explain to God why he was just trying to tell people what they want to hear to keep them from getting mad. But he is also very good at what he does and everything is said with great compassion towards us and you can tell he really does care about his people and wants to reach out to everyone.

My idea of "good things" is usually not what God's idea is, at least not at first. It usually takes me awhile to realize that what i thought would have been a good thing would not have made me happy or at least not for long. And thats when I realize what God was doing for me and protecting me from myself and from my wants that most likely would have hurt me. And trust me, this happens to me a lot cause I usually want the wrong things.

Wow! Thanks for starting this post Strummergirl!

I had this whole thing ready to reply with, with replies to quotes and to all, and then somehow I lost it, so this will have to do. Thanks to everyone for your input! This is a subject that I agree can be delicate and often controversial, but I welcome this type of discussion because God is very important to me and I can use all of the help and insight I can get on how to put him where he belongs in my life.

Strummergirl:
I really appreciate your perspective about how our relationship with God can include our Ts. I never looked at it that way. I too have a strong tendency to put people I admire (like my T) on a pedestal, only I make them my "Higher Power", and it has always been painful when they fall off, because they inevitably do. I have difficulty sometimes remembering that no one but God is perfect nor can another person do for us what only God can do. I am coming to realize just how much I need God in my life and how I am searching for a human being to fill the needs in my life rather than turning to the One that has the true ability and power to fill the holes in my soul that need to be filled. I think it's often harder for me to trust in a Being I cannot see than it is for me to trust in someone I can (which btw is VERY difficult), even though my "spirit" knows that God is my Source and my Strength and my Safety. It's my head I can't convince.

I have prayed earnestly for help with my attachment issues. Having become emotionally attached to a married man (my ex-Physical Therapist who is my friend's husband and who lives 5 houses away from me) was a devastating experience and left me feeling like a worthless piece of trash. I knew I needed help, and I knew that God was the only One that could help me. Yet I have now found myself deeply attached to my therapist (an older female) and I am even more ashamed. The shame comes from feeling that I have more interest in and more attachment to these people and a sort of obsession with them that like Monte said in my post "What do I do?" would be great if it were focused on God. That's where it SHOULD be focused, and I know that, so that is where I am stuck. Wondering why I can't focus my feelings where they should be focused, and instead longing for love and a sense of wholeness from people that cannot give that to me. It's really messed up. Maybe I really need to seek some ecclesiastical help on top of all of this to see if my leader has any ideas on how I can get my self headed in the right direction. Prayer hasn't helped me so much, but maybe I'm just not praying enough, or for the right things. Hmmmmm....

Anyway, I am glad to hear that you have had some good progress with your husband, SG. I too have the same issue with feeling irritation and aversion in my husband's presence, only we're going on 16 years. I have been feeling more "affection" for him, too--and without forcing it! I guess that is a positive thing, huh? I like the idea of writing a prayer for things like that and I'm glad you've seen an answer in that direction! Thank you for your analogy of the bike. I agree that blessings/answers to prayers are more often than not much bigger, better and more beautiful than what we asked for or what we would have been content to receive, and that always just confirms in my mind the fact that God loves us and wants to bless our lives...He just wants us to put our trust in Him and actually ask Him. Thanks again for all of your great comments and insight!


Monte:
I love what your T tells you that he's an agent of God and that your healing will come when you make God the center of your life, as opposed to others and their opinions and expectations of you, etc. So awesome! I love the rest of what he tells you, too. Especially the part about "Well, who are you worshiping, who is on the throne of your life, who are you listening to, where/what is your truth?" (And your reply "Shut-up T" is priceless! ). I know I don't like to reflect on and really consider those kinds of questions because then I have to face some kind of truth about myself that I don't want to face and accept. I also love that your T wants you to be dependent on God and that he sees that your dependence is misplaced right now. I'm starting to see that about myself more strongly, especially as you have pointed it out in your post. My T told me she didn't want me to be too dependent on her either, but I would have been better served had she said that I needed to become more dependent on God than on her, or any one human being. Your T sounds amazing, Monte! You are lucky to have him!

quote:

But I’ll just leave him [God]sitting in the wings while I keep hassling this mortal to be God.

So sad that we do that, huh?... If you ever figure out how to NOT do that, let us all in on the answer, huh?

Thanks for you insight, Monte!


I'm glad this subject got opened up. I live in a community of people that almost live our religion as if it were a sort of culture. I guess because most of us are of the same faith and have grown up with it and it is all around us it becomes something we are just used to and it becomes a way of life rather than something we have to struggle to keep at the front of our minds and hearts each day. Kind of something I have come to take for granted, which is really sad. God really should be at the center of my life, and I need to work at making Him so. Also, people around me also struggle with losing God as the center of their lives, but keep it hidden or deny it as I have and end up depressed like me. But no one talks about it. And if you have depression (for whatever reasons, like abandonment, attachment injuries, abuse/neglect, sexual abuse, etc.) it gets looked at as being a taboo that you are in therapy or on medication because if you are religious enough and are doing "what's right", you won't be depressed. So it's nice to be able to find others out there that I can relate to and feel support from and still have a common belief with who aren't afraid to share their feelings about their beliefs as they relate to their healing journeys. Did that make sense? I hope so!

Thanks again to all of you for sharing. It means a lot!!

MTF

I never even mentioned God in my therapy. I just think it is a whole different issue. I wasn't thinking at all about God recently. I hope he doesn't mind. Well, I'm sure he doesn't mind. My therapist wouldn't and God is a far greater being then my T, so I'm sure he doesn't take offence in me ignoring him for now.
However my relationship with church is rather cold. I'm rather critical of church as an institution. I feel I'm still part of it, but I do not get anything out of it.
Pippi, I didn't like the idea of your christian counsellor telling you that it is wrong to think about the man the way you thing about your P. I don't like that something that is bacisly human and normal in human psychology is considered wrong by the church. There are many things in the Bible that maybe served well in the past, but the human kind grows and develops more mature understanding of the world, God, themselves, what's right, what's wrong. That doesn't mean I don't read the Bible. I have it by my bed and I wish I will read it all one day.
If your P was ever removed from your live, I don't believe it would be God. Remember, God is love and he is not jealous about us loving each other.
I understand God as far greater love then we can ever experience or imagine. I don't believe in God punishing people for being weak, I don't believe in God wanting me to worship him. I believe he sees me and gives me the freedom. I believe that his love is far greater then my T's "love" so I don't have to be afraid. Yes, maybe he leads me while I don't see it. I never really thought about God in the context of my therapy. But I know, that at times he takes care of me.

Anyway, that's my point of view and please take into account that I do come from a different cultural background. I think religion in Europe is viewed and experienced differently then in US. So here I am.

quote:

It’s not just about me and my T, it’s me, my T and God in that room,

Thanks for that Monte. last night when I met with my T, I had so much to talk about (my stuff), but since my T and I engage in many spiritual discussions (he even attended my baptism- last fall- he says he is a Christian, but Christ's identity is a stumbling block for him- loves his teachings though)the first hour was about me- the second hour was about GOD - how cool is that.

MTF- I am the exact opposite on this one-
"I think it's often harder for me to trust in a Being I cannot see than it is for me to trust in someone I can (which btw is VERY difficult)"
When I was little, it was God I cried to, God who answered my prayers, when no one else listened, He did. It is extremely hard for me to allow people to get close to me- you know to let in. My T is really the only one who knows it all (he is the only T I have ever had. I have been seeing him for 15 months)He is the only person on this earth that I have been completely honest with- this is probably why sometimes I take a good situation with him and ruin it, It is fear. God knows me better than anyone. He has been my father, my mother, my little man- who took care of me during the teen years, and my friend forever. My T knows this, and he agrees,EXCEPT I think Christ is devine, and I am pretty sure my T does not believe that. A BIG stumbling block.

MTF and Monte- thanks for this reminder. God first, T second.
"I also love that your T wants you to be dependent on God and that he sees that your dependence is misplaced right now. I'm starting to see that about myself more strongly, especially as you have pointed it out in your post."
My T does not say this, but I know it is true, and it must remain this way, no matter how great I may think he is.
Amazon-you may be from a different country, but that makes no difference- we love you and accept you the way you are - as we know you. I loved your words-

quote:

Remember, God is love and he is not jealous about us loving each other.

This is OH SO TRUE.
Thanks all- great topic.

Still have not figured out how to create those nice looking quotation marks though- It is hit or miss.

SG, I don't think you should have to apologize for starting this thread. I think you should be able to hold this discussion as long as all those who post here are careful to be respectful of differing viewpoints. I say that because I think some of us have been forced or learned to survive by repressing/suppressing/stuffing/hiding, so part of our journey in therapy is claiming the freedom to find out who we really are, what our values are, what we believe, and allowing others the same right. I admire those of you whose religious faith is a source of strength to your healing, and I wouldn't want to take that away from you.

quote:

Also, people around me also struggle with losing God as the center of their lives, but keep it hidden or deny it as I have and end up depressed like me. But no one talks about it. And if you have depression (for whatever reasons, like abandonment, attachment injuries, abuse/neglect, sexual abuse, etc.) it gets looked at as being a taboo that you are in therapy or on medication because if you are religious enough and are doing "what's right", you won't be depressed.

I think there are many elements of religion that are positive and uplifting, but I also feel there are attitudes which have been harmful to my mental health, which have made me a little bitter. Certainly the quote above by MTF is one example of which I can relate. I have gone to church regularly all my life and yet the place I find myself right now is questioning the nature of God or if He even exists. Maybe part of that is because of my distrust with father/authority figures due to my abusive experiences, and my growing awareness of the hypocrisy of mankind, which leads me to see God, the "Father of my spirit" as being similarly untrustworthy or just another lie altogether. I hope to one day resolve my doubts, but for the moment I am privately rebellious at including God in my healing. Obviously God isn't running everything personally himself down here, so He better be OK with us doing the best we can to help ourselves. Therefore, I have no worries about sinning by relying on my T, even though there are others who would judge me otherwise. When I am not furious with my T, I think she is an angel on earth. That much I can believe in.

Hi Mad Hatter,
You are talking about people judging others, and I am saddened that you are exposed to small minds with that attitude. I think this is one the biggest problems in religion, but I don't see where Jesus preached this. He spoke of loving people into the kingdom of God.

My husband suffers from depression and one of the pastors at our church took that self righteous attitude, so we soon realized- that person is useless to help him.
For me- the most important thing is my relationship with God, and I learned about his love through his word, especially John, in the New Testament. Eventually I found a church that is supportive and loving.

Please do not take this as preaching, only as an invitation to search for wisdom.
I wish you well.

quote:

Originally posted by helle:
You are talking about people judging others, and I am saddened that you are exposed to small minds with that attitude. I think this is one the biggest problems in religion, but I don't see where Jesus preached this. He spoke of loving people into the kingdom of God.

Helle:

I agree with you. I am the one that posted the original "quote" that Mad Hatter referred to in her post, and I too see that attitude as one that is a big problem. In fact my own spouse has that attitude and it deterred me for many years from seeking help through therapy and medication for my anxiety and depression. I finally got to the point where I realized that if I did not get help my life would continue to spiral downward until I hit rock bottom (which I was actually already quite near) and I just decided it was my life, not his, and I had to do something for ME and for my boys. It's sad that people can take something as good as religion and turn it into a way to guilt people into believing that if they were just more righteous, they wouldn't suffer from such things as depression, etc. You are right; no where in the scriptures is there any mention of people being judged by Christ as evil for having depression or other mental health problems. God and Christ love ALL man- (and woman) kind.

BTW, Mad Hatter, I personally don't see you relying on your T as "sinning". We're all where we need to be on our "journey" and for me right now, I am relying on my T, whether I like it or not. I think mine is an angel on earth as well, and I'm grateful to have her. It's nice to have a physical being to count on for help and healing, too.! All the best to you!

MTF

Monte,

Just want you to know I'm hearing you!

MTF

It says that- Jesus was close to the broken hearted.

Hi, thought I would add my two cents worth on therapy and God. I became a born again believer 21 yrs ago. I was 30 yrs old and a big mess. I came from a background of sexual, verbal,and physical abuse. Short description, I grew up in hell. I married at 18 thinking that would solve all of my problems. By the age of 30 I was mom to two kids and my marriage was terrible and my children were suffering from being parented by a depressed angry mother. I got saved believing the scripture that all things old are passed away and I am a new creature. Well, I was saved but I was not a new creature. I was the same old depressed angry person. I tried evey prayer line, help book, Christian counseling(which consisted of just get over it, sure, tell me HOW). I sat under pastors who belittled believers who sought therapy outside of the church. I thought I was the worst Christian in the world because I could not shake my demons. Finally, at the age of 48, I was desperate and sought non-Christian therapy. what a life saving and changing experience! I prayed and asked the Lord to lead me to the right person who could help me. I prayed for someone who had the knowledge, training and skills who would not preach at me, yet would not counsel me against the Word of God. My T was heaven sent. My marriage of 33 yrs is now a real marriage and my relationship with my kids is amazing. I was introduced to a terrific new friend through this T----Prozac. No more thoughts of suicide, no more depression. I believe with all of my heart God used this non Christian T and Prozac to creating a new creature in me. God is first and will guide you to people,places and things to restore you. The guilt of seeking help outside of Christian means has been lifted from me. I know He loves me and would do ANYTHING to help me. Thank you Jesus!

Thanks Monte for the Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
It was heartening for me to see. I am one of those who was judged by my minister as somehow lacking in faith as I had a problem that wasn't getting better and he put it down to lack of prayer/belief on my part. So my faith, which is actually strong has been tried to its limits over recent years and I have been made to feel that it obviously wasn't firm enough, else I would be healed. i am a shy person who would have found it almost impossible to talk in any depth to this man about issues that have taken many years to even broach with my T. So I believed that somehow once more in my life I was to blame and felt inadequate before God and even scared to pray or go to church

Amazon, I agree it does feel a bit different this side of the water. Most Ts here don't mention religion and ?? maybe would be encouraged not to unless brought up by the client and even then maybe not give away any of their beliefs. My T has talked to me a few times about my faith - I felt quite awkward at first, probably because I once more had to admit to feelings of inadequacy, but each time I have found it very liberating and a helpful acknowledgement of where I am. Even if it is a difficult place sometimes.

starfish

Amazon- It might be easier for me to understand where my christian counselor is coming from because we both attend the same church. I believe she is right in the fact that it is wrong. I shouldnt think about having sex with anyone but my husband, but at the same time we all mess up. The definition of sin is to "miss the mark" which we all do and God knows we are all going to screw up thats why Jesus had to die for us. As a christian my goal is to do what God wants me to do and follow him the best I can but at the same time when I do screw up I know he is forgiving and loving towards me.

The part about God being jealous was kind of interesting to me because it specifically says in the Bible that God is jealous for us. Its a different kind of jealous than we feel when we are jealous over a boyfriend or girlfriend. And I do believe that God will remove things from people's lives that would get in the way of us having the relationship with Him that He desires from us. God gives and takes away. I do get that it would be very painful if I lost my P and I would be hurt and upset by it. But at the same time if thats what it took for me to come to a closer relationship with God instead of putting my P before God then I would eventually understand that and be thankful for that.

Its hard to even imagine getting to a place of being thankful for it, but I would rather loose something that important to me but gain even more from God. I do believe that God wants a relationship with everyone and that He will let things happen, good or bad that will lead you to Him because giving your life to God is way better than anything you could imagine. And I cant forget the verse that says to follow God you must hate your mother and father. Basically saying that if you had to choose between God and you mother or God and your father you would need to choose Him. Or even God and your children. God must be the most important even above the T's or P's. And I am not saying He always removes the things that block us from Him or that we put before Him, but He somtimes does and when we look back we can see Him at work and be thankful for what He did for us.

and the bible does say specifically say that thinking about having sex with another man or woman when you are married is committing adultery in your heart and there is no difference in that and doing it physically. That is what my christian counselor was getting at and it is something that I need to ask for forgiveness for and try to change it, but at the same time I believe that the change will not come without God's help because this is something I have dealt with since I was 7 years old and I cant change it on my own, I can only do it with Him.

My favorite prayer- "God help me to be willing-to be willing, to change. He does the rest.

I love that prayer too and have prayed it so many times!

Hi Monte...go back and edit your post to add an open bracket at the very beginning...that should fix it!

WOW- Blackbird, these words are powerful! Thanks for them

quote:

It is somehow, mysteriously through our sufferings that we can be united in an even deeper union with Christ-who Himself suffered terribly, and was sinless,

oh I have so many thoughts and questions on this - but my head and heart are so jumbled...

Monte - I TOTALLY agree with you. In every color

SG - I'm very struck by your story and prayer. I can't really put it into words right now, but thank you for sharing!

BB,
That is quite a spiritually powerful P you have. My T and I often have wonderful conversations about God, even though to a serious degree- we have different beliefs.

My T doesn't give many details at all about her religious beliefs, and I find that simultaneously both a relief and an annoyance to not know where she stands. She says it doesn't matter what her beliefs/values are, that it only matters what mine are. What do you all think? I think sometimes it can matter, but I am afraid to know where my T and I might disagree.

Let me make up some examples. Suppose your T privately believes something you are doing is a grave sin against God (e.g.,cheating on taxes, cheating on spouse, drug abuse, abortion, homosexual lifestyle, gluttony, lying, whatever!) Say you don't share this same value. Your T may keep her opinion to herself, but can she truly remain non-judgmental and accepting as you reveal yourself to her? Or flip it around. Say, for example, that you have a religious belief that premarital sex is a sin, but you did it anyway and now suffer from terrible guilt over it. Say your T does not share this belief/value and sees nothing wrong with premarital sex. Will he be able to appreciate your guilt or will he minimize your beliefs? (These are case scenarios only and not a statement of my personal values one way or the other.)

I rejoice in this topic. And in the fact that so many of you have so much to bring to this table.

My T and I sometimes hurry through my shit (well I hurry through it- he gives me space to do what I want) just so we can have our spiritual discussions. We do not talk of blame or judgement ever- our conversations just never- I mean never go there. We talk about the Bible and the teachings of Christ, the mission of Paul, we talk about wisdom and where that comes from, we talk about how God is working in our lives, and we talk about our own belief systems. It is ironic that he does not believe in the divinity of Christ's identity, yet he is the most Christ- like person I know. He says- that is his ultimate desire- to reflect Christ's love, and he does.
I have a friend that has recently become a rather close friend- she also sees the same T (upon my recommendation) and she agrees with me about him. She practices Buddhism.
Condemnation or judgement is just not part of the equation. For me, if it was, I would have to run.
Did I tell you - he came to my Baptism last fall?

In fact- my last session with him, I asked him if we could both write down our core spiritual beliefs and share them -because he says we have much in common, and I think not. The stuff he wrote- blew me away. I would post it- but that might be something that is frowned upon- an ethical no-no. So I won't. I agree with everything he had written, but we still divide on Christ.

You know what is weird?- when I was looking for a therapist 15 mos ago, I found him by a friend's recommendation. She was seeing him for marriage counseling. I just took the first name that came along- not knowing that I needed a trauma therapist (never even heard of such a thing- never knew i even experienced trauma- never saw my shit that way) Well- my T does marriage counseling- but he is a trauma expert. That is his passion- so he says.

Please don't take this as boasting, I just feel fortunate in finding this person.

MH- Those are some difficult questions. I am thankful to have my christian counselor that does have the same beliefs as me so that we can talk about them. But I also have a high school psychologist that I talk to weekly who does not share the same beliefs. I only know this because I found out where he goes to church, yet he has know idea I know because we do not discuss this at all. He knows what my beliefs are and is always willing to talk about my problems and how they are related to my beliefs because he says that is what is important, not what he believes. He says if we talked about them and how they were related to what he believes that would useless for me cause I dont believe what he believes. But even though we dont have the same beliefs we can still get along and love each other and not argue over it.
My P has some of the same beliefs but also has some different ones and I know this because of the way he talks and approaches things. But our basic core beliefs are a lot a like which does help. But when it comes to stuff like premarital sex we dont believe exactly the same, but he is still very good in dealing with me on it because even though I felt guilty in the past for doing that and getting pregnant God doesnt want me to feel guilty over it because I have been forgiven for it. So even though my P thinks I shouldnt feel guilty for a completely different reason that I really should, the thing outcome is still the same, I should not feel guilty.

I also have several friends that are involved in many things that I dont agree with. I have some that do drugs, I have some that are gay, etc. They are doing things that I believe that go against what the Bible says and what God wants for their lives. But we are still very good friends and they all feel like they could come talk to me whenever they needed to. The reason is because I was always taught this phrase "Hate the sin but love the sinner." Trying to follow this has changed the way I deal with people, especially ones that believe different that me because there is still room for a loving relationship even when they are doing things i believe is wrong. And I believe that a lot of times T's and P's basically going by this saying too. You may be different or have different beliefs but I can still love you for who you are and pray that if you are doing something wrong that God will reveal that to you so that it can be changed, but ultimately that is between you and God so I will continue to love and pray for you daily and be friends.

Hi Monte,

Your link worked beautifully. Thank you so much for sharing this. What a powerful representation of how we are seduced away from God by worldly things, and how they end up hurting us, and how God continues to love and pursue us, and how it feels when we realize we have been misled, and the challenges we face in trying to get back to Him. IMO, this is the greatest love story of all.

I started sobbing as soon as she was seduced away from Him by the boy in black. It felt so much like what happened with my first BF. I attached so hard to him, I had never felt loved by anyone before that. It started out wonderfully, like a fairy tale, he was romantic and sweet, my knight in shining armor...but then he started pressuring me for intimacy I wasn't ready for. I told him I didn't think it was okay with God, that we should wait, but he told me he didn't believe in God, and when he threatened to break up with me, I couldn't stand the thought of losing him, so I gave in. He also drank a lot and I went along with that, too...it's like I kept going farther and farther into darkness and confusion...so I know how it feels to be seduced away from Him...by the other things shown in the skit, too...even though I've never cut, I have had suicidal ideation most of my life, so I could really understand the seduction of believing I'm no good, that I'm worthless garbage and that hurting or killing myself would be a "good idea"...I've been there many times.

And I also know how it feels to be called back in that gentle, persistent way, how it feels to push against the world, to get thrown down again and again, but to keep trying to get back to Him and His love. I'm still fighting for that and having this visual in my mind now is so helpful and encouraging. Thank you again for sharing it!

SG

Mad Hatter (love the new avatar by the way ),

You've had lots of great responses to your last question and it's made me think of what I've experienced with both of my T's.

I am a Christian, but only since 2003. Before that, I was very much agnostic, very skeptical and questioning and also critical of what I saw and heard from some people who were supposedly Christian. I had (and still have) the very same GRRRRRR's that have been discussed in this thread. But I also had met other Christians along the way, here and there, whose way of being, mainly their intelligence and kindness, made me curious to find out for myself once and for all. And I figured, if there really is a Creator of the Universe, then He/She/It should be able to withstand any questioning I can put out there. So that's a very short explanation of how I came to be a Christian. And I'm still skeptical and questioning, even though I'm a believer...I identify with the apostle Thomas. And I also love reading about David from the Old Testament...he was not afraid to tell God exactly what he thought and felt.

Anyway, enough background...just wanted to give that so this would make some sense. My first T asked us if we were Christians at the beginning of therapy. Along the way, he also made a few comments from which I drew the conclusion that he is either atheist or agnostic. But I decided to keep going because I wanted to learn all there was to learn. I never want to be intimidated by challenges to my faith...in fact I want to face them head-on. Again, if God is "real", then He can take it. But since we weren't there to argue for our views, I didn't discuss them openly and tended to avoid bringing them up. One time, I mentioned God hesitantly, and he said, "Oh, that's okay, you can talk about God, it doesn't bother me. I've done lots of reading on it." But his tone was dismissive and rather condescending, as if he was assuming I had not done the same in-depth research and couldn't be expected to understand his views. The other time I mentioned God was to say that I had used the "Let go and let God" phrase to let go of things that maybe now needed further scrutiny. His response was to say, "Well, my version of that is..." and I don't remember his version. Basically, I was open to his secular viewpoints, but he seemed dismissive of my spiritual take on things, as if he'd already decided they weren't worth his time. So it limited what I could talk about, and his dismissive attitude about it made me feel unsafe and unheard.

As for my current T, she has a Christian worldview. Strangely, though, even though I am Christian, I avoided setting up an appointment with her at first, specifically for this reason. I was afraid she would be quoting Bible verses at me all the time and might not be "real" enough...again, I was afraid she might have all those GRRRRRR qualities. But nothing could be further from the truth. She only mentions God if I mention Him first. And she is very real, has obviously been through her own pain and her own questioning and has found some healing and answers and peace through the sweat, blood, and tears of her own experience. She has very strong convictions about her faith, but still has that critical quality of humility.

So FWIW, here's my conclusion. The first thing I want in a T is humility, an openness that could be summed up as "whatever I believe, there is a chance I could be wrong, at least about some of it." Without that, I wouldn't want to talk to them, whether they call themselves a Christian or not. That doesn't mean I don't want them to have convictions, though. Convictions are tested through our experiences and I really want a T who has examined themselves and been through some kind of testing and thinking and work and who has come to some decisions about what all of it means, and I'd love hearing about it, even if it's totally different from mine. And if we have been through similar experiences and come to similar conclusions, then it frees me up to talk about mine without worrying that I might offend them or get into a disagreement. It's so easy to get sidetracked into theological debates - and I really love doing that in a positive way, talking about what might be the case and hearing other views - but that's not really why I'm in therapy. So knowing they have similar beliefs feels safer, even if we don't make those beliefs part of our discussions very often. Feeling safe is a huge, huge factor and that contributes to feeling safe.

So knowing the humility is there is at least just as important in feeling safe, even if a person has strong convictions opposing mine. And knowing they have similar convictions is like the icing on the cake, it makes it easier to discuss them when they come up and avoids the possibility of getting sidetracked from therapy.

I don't know if this helps with your question, but it's what your question made me think of...you always have such interesting and thoughtful questions...and making me think about them clarifies my own experience! So thank you for asking it and I hope it helps

SG

Thank you, blackbird, helle, pippi, monte, and strummergirl for taking the time to add your thoughtful replies to my question. I am somewhat overwhelmed (both by the topic and by life in general) but I want to respond to each of you, but it might take me awhile with the interruptions I'm getting and my low energy reserve.

My T and I discussed this topic for a good chunk of my session time yesterday, so I'd like to comment on that experience first.

I told my T about this thread on Monday, but we didn't have time to discuss it. So yesterday she brought it up on her own, saying she was very interested to know more about the conversation going on here. She said any therapist worth their salt should be able to keep personal beliefs from infringing upon the client. I said it was a relief that she would not try to impose her beliefs upon me, but how did I know she wasn't silently judging me? She claimed she accepts people for who they are and doesn't hold anyone to her own personal values. She said she spent 20 years of her life finding her own genuine beliefs and wants to allow every client that same privilege. I said I can't afford for it to take me that long to find myself!

Although there is relief in not being controlled by her judgments, it would be easier than claiming my own identity. She said I already know some of her basic values about how she generally relates to humankind (e.g., she generously believes all of us on the planet are doing the best we can at any given moment with the handicaps and strengths that we own), but she doesn't want to provide me with details about her theological beliefs because I would use that knowledge to try and please her. This is true. My T seems to be happy and content with herself and her life, so why can't I just copy her beliefs and borrow from her identity? She says, because it wouldn't be authentic. But I don't know who I am or how to trust in myself to find truth.

In the end, the only confession I got out of my T is that No, she is not an atheist, but she added that if I decide that's what I believe then she would support me in it.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
How are you MH- I wanted to say hi, I don't think we've talked yet. I like your posts.

Thanks, blackbird! It's always nice to get positive feedback! Lately I have been doing more reading and less posting. I have read many of your posts and have enjoyed them even though I have not replied much.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
His thinking amd philosophy influences every aspect of his therapy, it is running through his whole approach, though, he won't bring religion up or include it unless the client specifically asks to...still, it's there

I tend to agree with you. I don't see how a T can completely divorce themselves from their beliefs or be completely objective.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
I chose a P who would never recommend divorce

I'm going off on a tangent now, but this is interesting to me because I once quit going to a therapist in part BECAUSE I felt he would never recommend divorce. It made me feel unsafe, unable to trust him. The T I am currently seeing says it was a mistake for me to seek "marriage counseling" because what was needed was domestic violence counseling. She says she is not an advocate of divorce, but sometimes with abusive situations she is just fine with it. I might add that I am not divorced and have no immediate plans to divorce, but I really needed to hear that statement from my T in order to trust. So maybe, bb, we tend to seek out counselors that we instinctively know will give us what we need, and we all need different things.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
I realized that I wanted to find out if the idea of a loving God could possibly be true-because our idea of who God is is shaped by our early experiences with the people who are "bigger" than us, so says my P. Well, that is the journey I am currently on...the quest to trust...

I wonder how I can trust any religious "truths" taught to me by the same people who abused me when I was young and defenseless? I don't know how, or if, I should separate the two. Maybe that is what is meant by the term "splitting", that I want to make everything I associate with influential people in my life as all good or all bad. I can't make sense of what lies in between.

quote:

Originally posted by helle:
It is ironic that he does not believe in the divinity of Christ's identity, yet he is the most Christ- like person I know. He says- that is his ultimate desire- to reflect Christ's love, and he does.

Helle, thanks for sharing this. That is how I am coming to view my therapist, although I am still a bit afraid to prematurely idealize her. I don't know if she is a church-goer, and she's not perfect, but I also know I feel more love and acceptance from her than from most (if not all) of my church-going buddies.

I am glad that you are able to hold such honest and explorative sessions with your T. I think having a T who is trained in trauma is so important for many of us. I have often questioned how my T can be so patient and understanding with me, and she has often replied quietly but intensely with the simple words, "It is because I understand trauma." The sad thing is, too many T's don't.

quote:

Originally posted by pippi:
I was always taught this phrase "Hate the sin but love the sinner." Trying to follow this has changed the way I deal with people, especially ones that believe different that me because there is still room for a loving relationship even when they are doing things i believe is wrong. And I believe that a lot of times T's and P's basically going by this saying too. You may be different or have different beliefs but I can still love you for who you are and pray that if you are doing something wrong that God will reveal that to you so that it can be changed, but ultimately that is between you and God so I will continue to love and pray for you daily and be friends.

Pippi, this is a concept I am pondering, but am undecided if I agree that this approach constitutes being truly nonjudgmental or not. I would like to discuss your quote with my T and see if that is the approach she follows.

I have a problem (according to my T) equating bad behavior with BEING bad as a person, or good behavior as the same as being a good person. My T says they are not the same thing, that behavior does not define one's value or worth. Maybe that goes along with what you were saying with the phrase "hate the sin but love the sinner."

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
I also feel that if you are a Christian (or Moslem or Buddist…) and your T doesn't share your faith, he can only take you so far on your journey to wholeness...it may still be a very good place, but only so far.

Sort of along the same line of reasoning, I believe a spiritual/religious/church counselor who is not trained in psychology and trauma can only take you so far. Perhaps it is not good to put all our eggs in one basket. Pippi, for example, has her christian counselor in addition to her high school counselor and her P. Perhaps they each have something significant to contribute, but each alone may be lacking in some area.

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
I do tend to believe a practising Christian will not/cannot put their faith under a rock and say it ‘doesn’t matter what they believe’ when they’re dealing with people, especially in this capacity. I believe this would be in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ. But I would imagine someone of certain other faiths, or someone who is simply tolerant of different faiths but doesn’t hold to one themselves, may say it ‘doesn’t matter what they believe’.

I have to admit that when my T said it didn't matter what she believed, only what I believe, that it did make me wonder if she just lacks a strong conviction and is passive in her faith. She, however, portrays her tolerance as a major component of her value system. Is it "un-Christian" if she holds herself to her beliefs while allowing all others the space to follow their own conscience? These are searching questions. I do not have the answers.

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
I know that spiritually speaking I am connected. This is a secure and comforting feeling.

I think if I were already secure in my identity and belief system, that I would welcome this spiritual connection of which you speak, Monte. But since I am sort of lost, it cannot happen for me right now. I think this is one reason why my T holds back. I do think she probably believes in prayer and would pray for me if I were in a frame of mind to ask such a request. But she would not bring it up on her own.

Thank you for your input, Monte.

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
Mad Hatter (love the new avatar by the way )

Thanks! I just recently figured out that I can choose my own custom avatar if I want, instead of from those offered on the forum list.

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
I figured, if there really is a Creator of the Universe, then He/She/It should be able to withstand any questioning I can put out there.

In a rebellious spirit, I agree with this, SG. I figure if God is real and yet won't allow me to question and search and even doubt without condemning me for it, then that is a God I would want nothing to do with.

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
One time, I mentioned God hesitantly, and he said, "Oh, that's okay, you can talk about God, it doesn't bother me. I've done lots of reading on it." But his tone was dismissive and rather condescending, as if he was assuming I had not done the same in-depth research and couldn't be expected to understand his views.

I am glad you are not going to this T anymore. The arrogance and insensitivity! That in my mind would be as bad as the other extreme of the religiously overbearing shrink.

quote:

Originally posted by strummergirl:
The first thing I want in a T is humility, an openness that could be summed up as "whatever I believe, there is a chance I could be wrong, at least about some of it." Without that, I wouldn't want to talk to them, whether they call themselves a Christian or not. That doesn't mean I don't want them to have convictions, though. Convictions are tested through our experiences and I really want a T who has examined themselves and been through some kind of testing and thinking and work and who has come to some decisions about what all of it means,

I really like how you put this, SG. It makes sense to me. I completely agree that humility is a huge necessary factor. If there is humility, then the pride of passing judgments is tempered. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

MH- when you discuss it with your T let me know what her response it. She is right that bad behavior does not necessarily mean that the person is bad. Its just like with children. My children act bad a lot of the time, the screw up, the dont listen, and I get very frustrated with them. But I try very hard to make sure they understand that just because what they did was bad does not make THEM bad. It is true that people are doing the best they can with what they have been dealt in life and we as humans often make mistakes and screw up while trying to do what we think is best because most of the time we can not see the whole picture at the time we make the decision. But just because we screw up does not mean we are bad.

I do get that there are some people out there who just do bad things and do not care at all how it affects other people and I can see those people being considered bad. Like rapists and murderers who hurt other people and know what they do is wrong but just dont care, they could be considered as being bad. But at the same time I still feel that it is not my place to judge what you or someone else does that is wrong. It is God's job to convict people about what they should or shouldnt do. I feel that I should not smoke and it was a personal conviction that I felt I should stop several years ago, yet my husband smoked for several years after I stopped. It didnt make me think he was bad for it because he was not convicted the way I was.

One of the things we are learning is that people to much rules on being a christian. When you ask someone about what a christian is you will them say "a christian doesnt drink, or have premarital sex, or cuss, or murder, or etc." They talk about all the things they dont do and that is not what its about it. Its about a relationship with Jesus and those relationships are different for each person. God convicts people differently at different times. But its all about this loving relationship with God who knows we are going to screw up and he loves us and forgives us anyways and that is the same way we should treat others because none of us are perfect. And you wont win people over for God if you are being judgemental and condemning the things they do. But you will if you show them love and acceptance and show them that you care even when they are doing wrong.

Even Jesus hung out with the tax payers and the outsiders and everyone who was known as sinners because those are the people He came to save. Just as the hospital is not for the healthy but the sick, Jesus came to save the sinners...which is all of us. And we must remember that we are all broken and separated from God because of the sin and we were given another chance and He loves everyone else just like He loves us so they deserve the same chance that we were given. And if God can love them despite their sins and problems than we should be able to love them too.

Hi all-
I just finished reading all the input, and you guys really make me think deeply-

quote:

The first thing I want in a T is humility, an openness that could be summed up as "whatever I believe, there is a chance I could be wrong, at least about some of it." Without that, I wouldn't want to talk to them, whether they call themselves a Christian or not.

Strummergirl- these are powerful words for me, and I agree. Without an openness and honesty in our T, I don't think therapy would work.(not for me anyway)
My T and I share some beliefs, but not all, and I wonder how people define the word Christian? What does it mean to be a Christian? My T says he is Christian, and I know that I am, but we are not the same. The only reason he ever started sharing anything he believed in is because I sort of forced the issue. I ask him very direct questions about his beliefs. He is too gracious to put me off.

Thank you MH for this-

quote:

but she doesn't want to provide me with details about her theological beliefs because I would use that knowledge to try and please her.

This is thought provoking in a different way for me.Through spiritual discussions, I have been able to more strongly deliniate my beliefs from his, but certain aspects of what he says- especially in regard to Christ's teachings about love, my T's attitude about people in general is rubbing off on me- just a little. Is it T pleasing or genuine?? Am I copying him? or making it my own. Good question for me to look at.
For me- trusting God has never been an issue. God never hurt me- people did. All through my early years- when the abuse was happening and the stuff (different stuff) that my family never believed, I prayed- and believed that God listened, God took away my pain (physical and emotional) I trust God- people NO, but I am learning to. It seems that my T is allowing himself to be my test case in this. I am afraid that if he is not going to be almost perfect at this, I will dismiss him, as I am a runner. His response is "you really challenge me- you make me work so hard." (idk if that makes any sense)

quote:

I wonder how I can trust any religious "truths" taught to me by the same people who abused me when I was young and defenseless

I think this was from MH, but IDK.for sure. When I was young and going through the trials Ages perhaps4-7, My family was catholic in practice, but that is not how I knew God. We did the Catholic things, but never reference to God at home. I prayed to an unknown God, and grew to constantly question the God of my Catholic experience. My God was good, loving, protecting; the Catholic God- not so much. He was punnishing.

Couldn't agree with you more strummergirl-

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by strummergirl:
I figured, if there really is a Creator of the Universe, then He/She/It should be able to withstand any questioning I can put out there.

Thanks all- this is wonderful. Hele

Here is how I learned about God- I think:

Matthew 18:10 states, “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.” In the context, “these little ones” could either apply to those who believe in Him (v. 6) or it could refer to the little children (vs. 3-5). This is the key passage regarding guardian angels. There is no doubt that good angels help protect (Daniel 6:20-23; 2 Kings 6:13-17), reveal information (Acts 7:52-53; Luke 1:11-20), guide (Matthew 1:20-21; Acts 8:26), provide for (Genesis 21:17-20; 1 Kings 19:5-7), and minister to believers in general (Hebrews 1:14).

this is from a great site called- gotquestions.org