River,
I say yes for two reasons.

1) I've done it. (Although I don't think it's so much about enjoying the pain, as an inability to actually believe that you're doing enough and working hard enough. There is an underlying fear that if we don't do therapy well enough, its just another reason our therapist could send us away.)

2) My experience, especially in working through the transference with my present T, is that EVERYHTING comes up in therapy. If I'm doing it in the "real" world, eventually it turns up in his office. So if there's a history of emotional self-harm you're going to do that in therapy too.

I'm really hoping this is the answer you were looking for, for your friend.

AG

You are right, "enjoy" is probably the wrong word. I believe it is more like a sense that if it doesn't hurt than the therapy isn't getting you anywhere. No pain, no gain. I don't think that is true logically but I guess when one has been depressed long enough, any strong feelings can seem "good".

River,
I remember having conversations about the issue with my first therapist. She was always concerned about the pacing so that I didn't re-traumatize myself by going too fast and getting overwhelmed by too much pain at once. But you're right, I think after being so shut down for so long, a strong emotion, even a negative one like feeling hurt or sad, at least felt like you were alive. Its all wrapped up in needing a secure attachment which will provide us with a sense of our being "ok." How often do you look at other people and think they're not working hard enough? We tend to be alot more balanced when looking at other people because our emotions aren't screaming at us about them, but they do about ourselves. I think sometimes those feelings can get in the way of our perceiving reality. Which is also why again the attachment relationship becomes so important because that's how we learn to regulate our own emotions so they're not constantly overwhelming us.

Catching a theme here? OK, I'm caught, I did pick my name due to an obsession.

AG

River,

Sometimes I think my history of emotional self-harm and the familiarness of that is what keeps in therapy. Also, I wonder if the you can get "addicted" to the intensity of the therapeutic relations ups and downs and so when it is okay that doesn't seems enough so you keep working harder. or maybe its the season...

You know sometimes I think there is a sense of pleasure I feel when I am working through a really tough problem and have to engage myself to it and even take a "sick day" if you will. When it is intense there seems to be a deeper attunement or something between me and my T that I seem to get a charge out of. Though I don't think that I sabotage my therapy (believe me enough crap comes up on its own) but there is a sense of special importance I feel when I get a little extra attention.
(Sometimes I wish someone would stop me from being so stinkin honest.)
Not sure if that is what all of you meant, but that is how I relate. Good question River.

I have never been so honest with anyone in my life other than my T and now my Dr. and still felt so accepted. All my emotions good and bad are beginning to surface and they still are there for me and I do feel better. Is that why I keep trying to screw up the relationsip I have with each. I am scared to lose the connection. If I am well they won't need to see me, and I will lose my security.

Thanks for making me think.

Kats

Kat,
I totally get how you're feeling. I had a really good session with my T on Tuesday (which I want to post about if I ever find the time) but something I have really been thinking about lately is that about a year and a half ago, my T, during several sessions, told me very clearly that I was welcome to see him for as long as I wanted to come, he would never ask me to leave. That's when I started to get better, because getting better didn't mean I had to leave. I'm pretty sure there'll come a point when I know I should leave, but right now the thought is still pretty scary (although not as scary as it used to be) but each time I think about it I can tell myself that I don't have to leave until I want to and think I'm ready. It's made a huge difference in my work. I would really urge you to discuss those fears with your T and doctor so that they can reassure you.

AG

Thank you everyone for your great replies. Each one touched on a part of the truth of the matter I think.

Ok, I confess, the question was about me. (Like any of you doubted that for even a millisecond! )

I took a very big risk a few weeks ago and like JM mentions, felt oddly rewarded by the deeper attunement and "special attention." I didn't feel good about what I finally managed to say, ashamed is more like it, but I felt good that it seemed to make my T so happy.

After this though, I had nothing. I went into emotional shock for at least a week and didn't really feel anything good or bad. Not even the transference. In some ways I was happy to feel so "normal" but I also felt like I had lost my voice, like I couldn't think of anything at all relevant to say in therapy. I got a little scared that I was maybe "fixed" and wouldn't have to see my T for much longer.

When I told my T about losing my voice she seemed fascinated by this concept and so I didn't want to disappoint her by not being able to expand on it. But of course this was impossible because I had no words to describe my experience - hence "losing my voice." This is also why you guys haven't heard much from me lately. I have tried so many times to write but there was nothing. I lurked and responded when I could but I am sorry I have been basically MIA for the last few weeks.

Last week, instead of being in shock, I was either depressed or anxious or both but still couldn't get much out during therapy. So I pushed hard. I guess I was thinking that if it didn't hurt then the therapy wasn't working. I was also missing the strength of feeling, good or bad, that does reassure me that I am alive and not swallowing my emotions.

This was when I came up with this question. I am so prone to punishing myself over and over with negative and hurtful thoughts. Sometimes I realize it and sometimes I don't. And I thought maybe I am pushing so hard because I want to feel the pain, so that I can feel justified in my attachment to my T.

A lot of this is speculation because I am not 100% if I am really doing this to myself or why I would but it was such a seemingly bizarre concept that I wanted to know what ya'll thought. Thank you again for your replies. This is really an awesome community.

Hi River... I need to respond to this even though it's very late and I'm tired. I hope I can make some sense here.

I, too, seemed to have lost my voice in therapy. I had gotten to a point where I divulged some hard and important stuff and then...I stopped and couldn't talk to my T. I sort of felt that things were good, and I almost felt happy. I had one session where he said to me that he was pleased to see me so happy. But in truth I was doing my fake impression of "everything is fine, don't worry about me". I had reverted to being the "good girl" that I had to be growing up, in order to protect my mother's feelings and emotions.

After much thought and discussion with a good friend I came to realize that I had been reacting to my T as if he was my mom and could not handle all my feelings and emotions. That if I released all those scary emotions I would cause him to reject me and turn away from me. That my own emotions could cause an irreparable disruption in our relationship. It seemed that I was so busy worrying about him and trying to take care of his feelings (as I did in the past with my mom) that I sacrified myself in the process. Since my T is now my attachment figure and I need him to survive, then I had to do anything I could to protect the attachment relationship w/him. What did I do? I pulled back and closed off myself and my emotions to him. I could not talk about emotional and hard stuff. It was too risky.

I saw him for a half session on Thursday and we talked about it... or at least I presented my theory to him. But just being able to tell him what I figured out on my own...evne though I was terrified to tell him gave me some relief and I feel that if we can work through this together it will take us to a deeper and more profound place in our relationship.

What he has told me is that I'm courageous for bringing this up with him and that I do not need to worry about his feelings, he will take care of that. I just need to focus on my feelings and allow him to help me with that.

So now that I understand why I shut down and felt blocked in therapy I'm not sure what we are going to do about it. But at least I shared this with him and I do feel confident that we will figure this out together.

I'm not sure if any of this resonates with you but I just wanted to share.

TN

I got a little scared that I was maybe "fixed" and wouldn't have to see my T for much longer.

Wow, River, I can totally relate to this. I even told my T once that I thought I was sabotaging myself because I was afraid that if I got better, I wouldn't be able to see her anymore. I thought that maybe she would tell me that I didn't need to come back anymore. (I have rejection/abandonment issues) Once she told me that she wasn't going anywhere and it was my decision as to when we stopped working together, I started feeling better about this. That's not to say that the thought doesn't still fly through my head every once in awhile. I'm only starting to believe that she will be there as long as I need her.

Puppy Lover,
Hi and welcome to the forums! I saw your hello post in the other thread. I think that fear of getting better is a very common one and most therapists really get it. Its a really good thing to talk to your T about.

True North,
What an awesome breakthrough. That's what we're in therapy to do, understand our unconscious repitition of old relationshp patterns. You're being able to recognize that and then have the courage to take it to your therapist is a real accomplishment!

River,
I think that kind of getting stuck and being shut down happens for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes, like True North, we can realized that we're stuck in an old pattern, sometimes we're not feeling safe enough, so we have to deal with safety before we're ready to go on. And sometimes, we've moved closer and that scares us. You mentioned that you had shared something really major. This may have been a backlash from that. You felt like you got too close and needed to pull back. To quote a very wise woman in another thread "this is the old River reacting to the new River's courage to speak up because if we don't get that stuff out it will keep us prisoner."

The other thing that can get in my way is that I'm trying to figure out what's going on all by myself before I speak and that often just doesn't work, especially for therapy. There have been times where I've just had to walk into my therapist's office and say anything, anything at all without worrying about it making sense or being important or stupid or anything. Just dump everything out there so my therapist can sort through it. Every time I've done that he's helped me to make sense of it. And usually it turns out to be something either very frightening and/or painful. So why would I be avoiding it?

Therapy isn't a constant movement forward. It starts and stops and stutters, it circles, moves backwards and sideways, and sometimes you need to rest. Its all part of the process. Especially for people who experienced trauma, being able to control the pace can be an important part of healing because you had no choice about how fast the trauma came at you.

Thank you for being willing to talk about this here, because I know so many of us go through this.

AG

Well there sure is a lot to relate to today.

River,
In dealing with my own shame it is good to hear you indicate that it worked out for the best and that your T was more than accepting of it. I am sure that mine will be too.

TN,
I do the same thing with my T and reacting to her as if she is my mother. I am constantly trying to fit a square peg into a round hole where it doesn’t belong and I just can’t seem to comprehend that I am doing that _while_ I am doing that. But she has been extremely patient in dealing with me and trying to help me see what I am doing and that it isn’t working, but I am often like a drooling, mentally challenged toddler insisting on forcing it in there anyway. Then I worry that I am pushing her away with my endless pursuits to frame her into something she has demonstrated time and again that she is not. I used to be my mother’s emotional caretaker too and had to sacrifice a lot of my own needs to do that. It kind of leaves you blind as to what your needs really are and it feels impossible even to express them.

Puppy Lover,
I thought I was reading one of my own posts when I read yours and even your T’s response echoes mine. When it comes to fear of rejection and abandonment I am a frequent flyer. And my T has used similar words that she is not going anywhere and only I will be the one to end this relationship. That is so soothing.

AG,
I sometimes find myself feeling the need to keep up with whatever my T may be thinking as if to prepare myself for what she might ask next, as if she expects me to have it all figured out and will somehow be disappointed if I don’t. And I know that is not true at all, but is almost a compulsion to be that good little girl I always had to be.

I especially like what you say next and I will quote:

quote:

Therapy isn't a constant movement forward. It starts and stops and stutters, it circles, moves backwards and sideways, and sometimes you need to rest. Its all part of the process. Especially for people who experienced trauma, being able to control the pace can be an important part of healing because you had no choice about how fast the trauma came at you.

How very true. It is unpredictable as much for the therapist I think and they don’t bother trying to control the ins and outs. Like my T says, “Whatever comes up comes up and we will go from there.”

Trying to control everything is very exhausting indeed.

If I never read/respond to another link in any forum ever again, I'm glad that I've read/am responding to this one.

Some of it resonates to the point where I want to throw up.

You're all courageous, and your openness is showing me lots of things. I knew a lot of the things you write to be true of myself. I just didn't know that they were so _normal_.

I read and love the love and respect you show one another, and fail to understand how I elicit the same response.

Which is also a normal response in regards to the aforementioned elicited response.

The above sentence is me couching core emotion into confusing tangles of words. They explain the cold, hard truth - but words are my teddy bear. Comforting, honest - yet...they're mine to create with. Emotions tend to barge in, uninvited, and threaten to usurp what I'm trying to become.

My eloquence is gone, which means feeling is here, which means I'm sweating and internally curling into a ball.

It's all good though. Promise.

quote:

Some of it resonates to the point where I want to throw up.

You're all courageous, and your openness is showing me lots of things. I knew a lot of the things you write to be true of myself. I just didn't know that they were so _normal_.

I read and love the love and respect you show one another, and fail to understand how I elicit the same response.

CQ,
I understand the point of wanting to throw up because of the painful honesty we are forced to admit. It's a real catharsis to be heard and understood this way and not be judged or made to think that what we are feeling is wrong. To believe our entire lives that we are defective and then to be able to find each other and witness the fact that is the farthest thing from the truth. We are all living testimonies that we are strong and courageous and there is nothing wrong with us. It feels so validating, and cleansing, and good to finally feel what we deserve to feel. I've never known anything like it with one person (except my T)let alone an entire group of people. There is a real comradery here and we're happy that you joined us.

quote:

I knew a lot of the things you write to be true of myself. I just didn't know that they were so _normal_.

CQ

This is the greatest thought that has kept me coming to this forum each day. The thought that I just might be normal!
I thought I was the freak who had embarrassing, ridiculous, inappropriate thoughts. What an eye opener it was for me to meet people who not only had these thoughts, but completely understood me. Please stay with us. You will be amazed by all the support and compassion and knowledge you will gain from this group.

PL

quote:

Emotions tend to barge in, uninvited, and threaten to usurp what I'm trying to become.

CQ,
I so totally understand that. I hated my emotions for so long and can still get pretty annoyed at them. This would all be so much easier to get through if I could just think my way out of it. My T often says that if it were just cognitive, you would walk in, they would hand you a book, and say have a nice life. But it doesn't work like that, we have to experience the emotions and have them be understood and heard to heal. This is a really good place to do that because we understand what it is to need that place. And I can tell you that eventually emotions become your ally, conveying important information about your life and informing your decisions about how you want to live it, instead of an enemy storming your ramparts and threatening to disarm you.

I'm really glad you found this place. And you elicite the same response because you are a human being with dignity and worth just like the rest of us. Just because we all have trouble believing it about ourselves, don't mean it ain't true.

It is humbling to see the strength, courage and wisdom in everyone (else's) posts. I find it continually amazing that such an extraordinary group of people could be so plagued with self doubt. Good thing I enjoy irony.

AG

HB,

Hmm, good question. I'll give you my take, although I don't believe that it's a definitive answer by any stretch. I'm also still learning this so its a work in progress, if you know what I mean.

I tend to use feelings and emotions interchangably. My definition of a feeling or emotion is our immediate reaction to an event. A feeling is not something we decide, its something we have and is therefore not subject to judgement or condemnation. (NB: That is SO much harder to do than it is to know, I still spend WAY too much time beating myself up for my feelings.) It just is. It's a fact to be examined in order to understand ourselves.

My T often says to me that instead of hating myself for the way I feel, I should look upon it as another opportunity to get to know myself. Our feelings can often be indicators of our underlying beliefs and the template we're using for our relationships. Once you understand why you feel the way you do, then you can use that as input into what action you wish to take.

For instance. Someone does something and you react by feeling angry. In one case, you may think about it and decide that you need to do something to change the situation. Another time when you get angry you think about it and realize that it relates back to your past, that the anger was triggered but isn't really necessary in the present situation, so you don't need to act on it.

We need to learn to "mentalize" to think about how we think. Our feelings are sometimes an excellent reflection of reality and therefore should be acted on. Other times our feelings can be a distortion and our ability to recognize that can open up a lot more choices.

An example from my experience because I'm really struggling to describe this: I am terrified that if I tell my T I "googled" him, he's going to tell me that I can no longer be his patient. That feeling is real, but when I reflect on it, I remember that my T has told me, time and again, that I won't be sent away. So although my feelings would dictate not telling him, after thinking it through I decide that it is important to tell him (so I'm not hiding things in the relationship because the whole point is to let someone know me fully and see if they stay.) so I go against my fear and tell him. (He responded beautifully by the way.) And I was able to learn that moving towards someone brought comfort instead of pain which actually reduces the fear for next time.

On the other hand I could be in a situation like walking through a dark garage and I hear someone following me. I feel scared. When I think about that I decide I should be and head towards a security guard or take the closest exit. The fear, in this case, alerted us to a real danger, so we could take action to stay safe.

Man, I hope this is making some sense.

I also know that examining my feelings and having them be heard by my T allows me to follow the emotions back to the source and make sense of my experience. One more life example, if you've the patience.

My T is also doing couples' counseling with my husband and I, and in a session we were talking about something from a previous couples session. It was an argument where I had been really unable to hear my husband because I was getting triggered. I was often having complete meltdowns in couples counseling at the time that was kind of slowing down the work. I was expressing to my T how I felt like I was just asking so much from both him and my husband that they would get sick of it and leave. That I was expecting too much reassurance out of him. That I was sucking the life out of him. My T told me that he didn't feel that way at all, he wasn't "working that hard over here" but that the feeling was me trying to make sense of my experience. That I wasn't sucking the life out of him, my father has sucked the life out of me. At that moment, I vividly remembered what it had felt like to have my father take from me for his needs while totally ignoring mine. And my need to grieve that. So talking about a fear that my T would leave led to a fear I was asking too much led to the grief surrounding my father's actions. If I could not have acknowledged those feelings and expressed them, I would not have found the source of the pain that led me to not want to ask anything of anyone because it would be too much. So learning that also taught me that it was ok to ask, providing me with more options to deal with my problems.I could ask other people for help. (You know of course that this was not a one time thing and I still struggle with it. But it was an important step along the way.)

AG

quote:

I am terrified of my T, i get worse anxiety seeing him than anywhere else in my life. What confuses me is the conflict, my heart is pounding with fear while the rest of me knows he is not trying to hurt me.

HB

I went through months and months of this. It was so confusing because I knew that I really wanted to see her, but I was scared to death. I felt as if I were hyperventilating every time I drove to her office. I shook like a leaf as I sat in the waiting room. When she called me in, I would sit in the chair with every muscle of my body tensed up. To me, the fear and anxiety was very real. None of this made sense to me, until I started to test the waters with her. I would let out one small feeling and realize that she was so accepting of it.

You are right that our feelings are not black and white. My T keeps reminding me of that because I seem to be a very black/white, right/wrong person. These feelings that I have for her are very much in the present, but as we look at them together, I can see how they are related to my internal world. Related to my relationships of the past. And because her reaction is different from the reaction that I am used to, or the reaction I am expecting, I am creating new patterns in my brain. It is very enlightening to relate these current feelings to situations that I really never looked at before, and realizing that they are related. I have only just begun to make sense of this. Hence, this long journey continues.

PL

quote:

I am terrified of my T, i get worse anxiety seeing him than anywhere else in my life. What confuses me is the conflict, my heart is pounding with fear while the rest of me knows he is not trying to hurt me.

I get this, too. Not so much with my old T (Tfella), but with all of the new ones. And with group therapy. Boo. But based on my experiences with Tfella, I _think_ this goes away? Kinda? Sometimes? Once we're gone through the whole "mentalizing" process AG was talking about?

I'm really interested to figure out how mentalizing (which, as you describe it AG, is pretty cool) from "intellectualizing" (defense mechanism, often bad) - which I'm guilty of at least some of the time.

Sorry its taken me so long to respond, things got crazy wild at work yesterday and I had a couples session last night (in which, guess what, my T, husband and I discussed sex. Which was as embarrassing as I thought it would be, I had little flames shooting off my ear lobes I was blushing so hard, but it really was helpful. My T is unflappable, you would have thought he was discussing the weather. )

As far as being scared to go to therapy, have I ever shared my "ballistic rocket" theory of therapy? When a rocket follows a ballistic flight between planets, you essentially fire the rockets and accelerate towards the planet or moon you're trying to reach. But at some point you have to stop accelerating or you'll shoot past or run into it so hard, you'll be killed. So the rocket flips over and starts firing its jets so that its accelarating AWAY from its destination, which acts as a brake.

That's how I often feel about my sessions (not so much lately which is nice). The further away they are the more I want to go because I want to be with my T and feel safe and cared for. But at some point, when I get close enough to the session, the realization starts to surface that when I'm with my T and feel safe, I'm also going to have to feel some really uncomfortable things and do some really difficult work. At which point, I start trying to accelerate in the opposite direction.

I literally spent months terrified to go to each session. I am the best terrified driver in the world. I've actually started sessions by sitting down, telling my T I needed a few minutes, then bending over and just concentrating on breathing I've been so scared. So yeah I understand what you guys are talking about.

Wynne,
Here's my shot at mentalizing versus intellectualizing (I am a champion intellectulizer.) BTW, I read about mentalizing in a number of sources but the best description I've read so far is in Attachment in Psychotherapy by David Wallin. It's tough going because its really a text book for therapists but there was a lot of really good information on attachment and how it translates into clinical practice. He actually described a lot of the work I've done with my T (who has a very dog eared copy of this book on his desk.)

OK, when you "intellectualize" it's an attempt to perform a logical analysis of a situation in order to not feel a situation. You are staying in your left brain to avoid feeling the emotions going on in your right brain.

Mentalizing is the process of "de-embedding" from your emotions. Our emotions can be so intense that they overwhelm our ability to make choices or discern whether or not they reflect reality (which we discussed above). When you mentalize, you let yourself experience the emotions and all the associated affects but you then pull back so to speak, and try to put the emotions in context. You realize that how you think about and react to your emotions is different from just taking them as perfectly reflecting reality. You're thinking about thinking.

So bottom line, intellectualizing is an attempt to avoid emotions while mentalizing is an attempt to use your emotions as a resource.

Does this make sense? I'm still very much learning to do this so I'm not sure how well I'm describing it.

AG

Makes sense, AG. I hear that mentalizing is using your emotions as a resource to understand. I'm pretty sure I could fall off the wagon into intellectualizing, but I can see that it's at least possible to sustain a difference over the long haul.

Thanks for the clarification.

*note* appointment tomorrow with new CalmT, scarescaredscaredscaredscared.....

Wynne,
If you weren't scared, it would probably be because you didn't know what you were getting into. That ignorance is kind of hard to maintain while spending time here.

Just remember to breathe, you'll be ok, And let us know how it goes.

AG

Wynne

You are so courageous to keep working so hard and not giving up. I wish the best for you tomorrow, and that it ends up being a match.

PL

Wynne,
What is there to be scared of? Therapy is a cake walk, just look at me!
Just kidding of course.

I hope you have a good, calm session with new Calm-T. We'll be waiting to hear from you.
JM