Cipher... of course I remember you. It breaks my heart to hear of another ugly termination story. A story of betrayal and abandonment. You know I know howyou are feeling right now. And yes, it seems surreal... like a bad nghtmare you want to wake up from.

I am so terribly sorry this happened to you.

I know you have children. My son is what kept me going after what happened to me. I had to get well for him. Keep that in mind as you go through the grief that I know you will feel.

I'm here if I can help you in any way. Do you feel that this is irrevocable or will T changer her mind? Has she offered any termination phase or sessions?

You will get through this but I know it's a hard road.

Sending hugs
TN

I am so sorry you are going through this, i know what it feels like. Reading your post sends triggery nightmares through my cells.

Tell us more. What happened?

Somedays

I'm sorry to hear of this, Cipher.
Sending hugs your way...

Oh, Cipher...I'm sorry to see you back under such awful circumstances. I kind of have some of the same questions as TN and am just wondering what are the circumstances surrounding all of this? Of course, you don't have to share, and please don't if it would send you into an even worse state, but if it would help, we are here to hear your story.

Hi Cipher,

I remember you a little bit, but mostly your tagline is what I remember most. The hairs rise on the back of my neck hearing of another termination. I am so sorry! You are not alone with this one. Please be kind to yourself. I know the pain can be unbearable. Feel free to share details if that would help.

I was here when my T of almost 5 years, terminated me by certified letter one week before my son's wedding. I didn't handle it well. I foolishly blamed myself for her inability to deal with the transference between us and caused bruising on my body and a black eye that barely healed in time for the wedding! Thank God for makeup. It took me a while but I found another T who has helped me to recover from that painful event. No negative transference or fear of termination with her! Processing the relationship with former T has been slow. Take good care of yourself, Cipher. I am glad you returned here for support.

(((Cipher)))
I'm not around much myself these days, just started posting a bit after a long break, but I most definitely remember you. I am so sorry it has come to this. I know you traveled a long bumpy road with your T and I am sorry that in the end she failed you so spectacularly. FWIW, from what I remember of your relationship with her, this was a failing on her part to maintain sustainable boundaries and manage the transference between you. The suckiest part of therapy is that when a therapist fails so badly, the client pays the price. Keep coming here for support. The people here who have been through these kinds of terrible terminations can really help pull you through it.

I am just so sorry.

AG

I am vacillating between robotic numbness and hysteria. I cant live this way. But TN is right, I have to find a way for my children. But I dont know how.

Since its been awhile since I posted, I will try to give a little background. Those of you who remember me will recall that at times I had a rocky relationship with my T. I have been seeing her for 3 1/2 years. Many of the problems early on had to do with me projecting my fears onto her and pushing her away. But over the past year things have evened out and we've had very few fights. I stopped trying to run away from her. I was able to allow myself to trust and depend on her more. She helped me through a 7-month period when I separated from my husband, and for the last few months she has been seeing us together as a couple, in addition to seeing me twice a week for myself. I thought things were looking up -- not that I felt ready to end therapy, but just that I wasnt living in such a chaotic emotional state anymore. I was not expecting nor welcoming this change of events at all. Instead it is she who is pushing me away.

TN, I want to thank you for being the first to respond. I know you can relate. I remember the scene of your T trying to send you to the ER against your will, sorta to make himself look justified though he had no ethical grounds for his termination. My T didnt send me there, she just told me in an email that if this was going to send me into deep depression that I should go there myself. I've never wanted to do that but I was so distraught that I ending up walking to the ER Sunday night, in the dark, in the snow, with no shoes on and no coat. I was just clutching my bear that she gave me and my iPad that had her termination email on it. When I got to the ER I asked them to call my doctor (I was hoping that by chance he was already on call but he wasnt) but the nurses said they were not allowed to call him, that I had to do it. So I called his home number and his wife took a message but said he was in meetings until late. I sat on the floor in the waiting room for an hour and cried, not knowing what else to do. I could have seen another doc but I didn't trust anyone else to understand. So eventually I walked home. It was so cold -- its been getting down to 15 degrees F below zero the last few days -- thats how distraught I was that I didnt care if I froze.

I am so sorry that many of you have been here before, especially now that I am in similar shoes. I am hesitant to give all the details because I love my T dearly and feel protective of her. If she would apologize and take me back, I would still come running. And yet I know if I write what she has done and her reasons for it, she will come under fire by those who read this because it sounds so ridiculous. I myself am torn as to what reality is. I feel partially responsible. I just know I am so attached to her that I want to die. She was the only person in the world who I thought loved me unselfishly. I have never publicly admitted this on the board before, but I have some dissociative symptoms that possibly put me into the category of DDNOS. But my T insists that it is worse than I want to believe, and now she has deluded herself that I am literally possessed by demons. She says she cant and wont do demons, and that as long as I keep seeing her the demons will become more and more threatening because they dont want her helping clients. She says I need to go to my spiritual leaders for help with this. She says Satan is attacking her through some of her clients, and she has had to terminate one other person as well who was a "conduit for the demons" to hurt her. She has never terminated a client against their will before, and now after nearly 25 years of practicing she terminates 2 in the same week?

I know to some of you this sounds like she is off her rocker. But I suppose if you believe in the Bible then you have to believe that demonic possession exists, that it is a possibility. It is hard to argue since I have a self-hateful part to me that thinks I am a monster anyway. But mostly I think she is being paranoid and would be hard pressed to come up with any specific threats I have made to harm her. At times I have threatened to harm myself, but somehow she misconstrues that to mean it is a threat against her.

Part of me wonders if this is all a lie and she can't stand me so much that she is looking for any excuse to get rid of me. She even wrote in a text last night that she had to terminate me because I would never leave her (since I am so attached now) and that I would continue to put us both in danger.

She did offer me one last termination session yesterday, but I couldnt go. It was too painful because I know how stubborn she is once she makes a decision and that it would be useless to try to change her mind. The only hope I have of being able to go back is if I actually go to my spiritual leader and see if they can successfully "cast out" the demons for good so that they dont come back. Then if she is convinced that is the case, she might let me come back. But she thinks the demons are protecting against some dark secrets from coming out, and no matter how many times I tell her, I have no more memories to share! Maybe there was some abuse that I cant remember simply because I was too young, but I'm not going to get that back. She doesnt seem to think that my PTSD symptoms can be explained by what I have already revealed. Apparently what I have suffered is not significant enough to satisfy her.

I just started another semester of school. I am in my senior year, ironically in psychology. Sound familiar, TN? But I think I may need to drop out. I have lost all motivation and ability to concentrate on my studies, and it seems ridiculous to be studying psychology when it seems psychotherapy has caused me such pain. I don't know what my goals are anymore, or whether I can hold onto them.

I just now saw AG's post -- so good to hear from you and feel your support, as well as all of you who have posted this morning. I want to respond more to your post in a bit.

Kashley, of course I remember you too and thanks for coming here. Have you finished your psychology degree by now? Are you pursuing a graduate degree or taking a break?

Deeplyrooted and Somedays, I remember you both a little. Somedays, if I recall correctly, you were facing an unwanted termination right about the same time you first came to the board. I hope things are going better for you these days. Deeplyrooted, I did not remember your story, but how awful for your T to choose such timing. And I'm sure your T knew it too, which makes it all the worse. I don't know how I could have survived that double whammy.

Athenacus, I am sorry that I do not remember you, but I do appreciate you coming to show your support here.

Outsider, I don't think we have met but I am struck by some of the similarities in your story. I wonder how it is possible for you all who have been through this to truly trust your innermost feelings again with a new T.


Now back to AG, I know that you and some others have long felt that my T was not observing boundaries very well. You may be right but I have never wanted to admit it. I never wanted there to be many boundaries, and many more have been crossed since I last posted. My T has told me so many times that she loves me. She has said I am special to her. She took me and 3 other clients to an overnight trip to Vegas to see Phantom of the Opera. She has taken me out to lunch several times. Once she invited me to join her family for a Sunday afternoon as they camped at a lake resort. I took my children and we had dinner together and sat by the campfire and chatted. Just a few weeks ago she invited 3 of us clients briefly out to her house after lunch. Her husband and daughter know me by name and also give me hugs. I am sure all of these things would be considered taboo by more strict therapists. But these are the same things that helped me to feel close enough to trust her and overcome some of my fears of attachment. She was my substitute mom. Yes there were still some lines she would not cross. For example, I could not just show up at her house uninvited. I still was expected to pay for every session. She still would not text me back on weekends. She did not come to my house. But I savored everything that she did give. And I doubt I will get that kind of love and attention from any other T and will be dissatisfied with anything less. I love my T, and I really thought she loved me. But obviously she didn't love me enough to keep from terminating me abruptly without (in my opinion) any ethical reasons. So maybe she really didn't love me after all. Which means there is no one in the world left to love me the way I wanted to be loved: unselfishly, unconditionally, consistently, protectively. AG, I know what you would say, that I can't ever get back what I didn't get in childhood and that I just have to learn to grieve it. I am so resistant to that. The idea makes me want to curl up in a ball, vomit, and die.

Cipher.. thank you for sharing this with us. And how could I not respond to you. First, I always liked you and second, although you were so attached to your T, I did not trust her because she had boundary issues. Lastly, I have walked in your shoes and I know the devastation and trauma it leaves you with. I'm sorry you were so distraught you didn't care if you froze. But your kids would care. They need you.

As for school... yeah that sounds VERY familiar. I would advise you to take a leave of absence for a few months if that is possible. I did that for 6 months until I healed enough that I could focus again. My T helped me with that. I managed to go back and maintain my 4.0 GPA an graduate. You can go back when things are better for you. I know how impossible it is to read and concentrate.

As for the demons....huh? is your T serious about this???? While you may have DDNOS and you may have alters that are trying to protect you or your littles against Ts help, I know you do not have Demons inside you. While it may ease your pain somewhat to speak to a spiritual counselor (as it would to speak with another T) they will not be able to fix the "demons" your T talks about... because they are not there. You are a wounded, scared person because you have PTSD and struggle with emotional regulation issues. You are NOT a demon.

If I can remember correctly your T treated some clients who were cult members and I'm starting to wonder if this is where she comes to the idea of "demons".

Cipher, I know this is difficult but you must try to believe that the issues here are HERS and not yours. She was the T and she did not hold boundaries and SHE is the one who is unable to handle treating you. Not because you present with anything beyond what most T's work with but because of her own deficiencies.

My best advice to you is to find a new T as soon as possible to grieve with and to get some perspective on what happened. Do your best to fnd a T who is experienced with prior treatment failures so they will understand what you are going through right now.

I don't have much time but I hope you will take my words to heart... and I will try to write again soon (i'm workiing now). Keep posting here as well to let us know how you are doing and to take support and comfort from those who know this pain.

Hugs
TN

quote:

Which means there is no one in the world left to love me the way I wanted to be loved: unselfishly, unconditionally, consistently, protectively.

The truth is this: you can live to be 10000 years old, and be the MOST lovable person in the history of the planet, and you will not find a human who will love you perfectly, the way you want to be loved. Not because you are not good enough, but because humans are human and always fall at least a little short when it comes to loving others.

Your best hope is to find someone to love you with enough skill, consistency, and integrity that you will be able to heal and to forgive them for loving you less than perfectly.

From what you've written so far, your former T is not that person.

There are T's in existence who are capable of that, however. TN found one, AG has one, and I also found one after a previous failed therapy.

I am so sorry this happened to you, Cipher. I wish there were more I could do to help, aside from saying there is hope.

((Cipher)) Thank you for sharing, Cipher. And yes, I graduated in May and now work at the same university in financial aid..just trying to figure out what I want to do - I think I want to go to graduate school, but I'm still just playing it by ear. As far as your schooling goes, just do what you feel is right, but don't burn any bridges. Once you're feeling stronger again, you can come back and finish with a bang. Is this your last semester?

I remembered the client that your T had who had cult ties and remember you saying that your T was scared at the time? I also immediately thought of that when she mentioned the word demons - that maybe that is where that's coming from. Honestly, I do think she's off her rocker, and I do consider myself a Christian. I might have trouble sometimes, but I do believe in the Bible. But I do NOT believe in what your T is saying. That is just..shocking and ridiculous. And not true at all.

I'll also admit that I've thought for a long time that your T did not have clear enough boundaries and honestly didn't seem to know how to properly place them and stay true to them.

Try to find someone, ideally a good T, who can help offer another perspective to all of this. I'm so sorry for the pain you're in.

BLT, I hope you are right about one day finding a T I can trust. But its hard to imagine. I might be able to numbly talk to a T about what happened, but emotionally I will stay distant to protect myself. I don't think any therapist is fail-proof anymore. Not for me. There is something about me that I think would eventually drive any T away.

Kashley, glad to know you finished your goal and have found employment. No, this is not my last semester. I had planned on finishing up fall semester, taking 16 credits now and 15 credits in fall. But I just talked to my Vocational Rehab counselor about putting things off a semester, and he recommended that if I do that I wait until fall to enroll again instead of trying to cram 16 credits into a summer semester.

The VR counselor also gave me a referral to a counseling center 30 minutes away that I didn't know about. They have 3 female therapists there. I don't know that it could ever be the same or what level of support I will be able to expect, but I made a phone call and one of them is supposed to call me back and answer some of my questions so I can decide whether I want to make an appointment. Maybe they could at least help me overcome SU thoughts.

((((Cipher))) I am so angry at your T I could spit nails, but I do not want to cause you any further pain. I want to comment on only one thing but will keep the rest of my thoughts to myself. If you ever reach a point where you wish me to comment further, we can talk about it then. Right now, you need to find a way through this terrible pain. I am truly very sorry for what you are going through and please do not hesitate to ask if there is any way that I can help without making things worse.

**** Skip this part if you need, I am criticfizing her. Ok, the one thing. I am a practicing Christian and I believe the Bible is the Word of God and I believe in the spiritual realm and that Satan and demons exist. I also believe if we trust in Christ, we have nothing to fear from them. Just wanted to establish my bona fides before saying this: Claiming this is demon possession is utterly untrue and is a piss-poor excuse for her incompetence and an evil way to place the blame on her client while claiming to take the high road. I know you love her, and if I were in your shoes, I would too, but I find her detestable for how irresponsibly she is acting. OK, I'm done. **** End of criticism

Keep talking as much as you need to, and I think that TN's suggestion to try to find another T to get through this is a good one.

quote:

There is something about me that I think would eventually drive any T away.

Cipher, this is a belief that most, if not all, victims of childhood trauma, carry. But its a lie. I know of therapists who would not drive you away. I hate that this experience is reinforcing this belief for you.

quote:

BLT, I hope you are right about one day finding a T I can trust. But its hard to imagine. I might be able to numbly talk to a T about what happened, but emotionally I will stay distant to protect myself. I don't think any therapist is fail-proof anymore. Not for me. There is something about me that I think would eventually drive any T away.

You don't have to imagine it right now. All you have to do is take the first step. You start by going and numbly talking about what happened. You stay distant. You eventually find someone you can work with long term, by examining their consistency, knowledge, and integrity. You just keep going, keep numbly talking about it. With support, you rebuild the rest of your life. Years down the road, if it is deserved, trust will happen. And no, no T is fail-proof. You will hate them for not being your old one, and they will make mistakes, but if they are good enough and you stick with it, things will get better.

$$#@!%&! I dont know what is going on but I have just written two posts now that have suddenly disappeared before I could send them. Getting a bit tired of having to start all over.

AG, just want to say that even though I still love my T and would go back to her if she would let me, I am touched by your protective anger in my behalf because I know it comes from a place of caring. I am still struggling to decide how much I have contributed to this end result. I have not always been honest with her and perhaps I am just reaping what I have sown. But I do know that her experiences with her cult clients have definitely colored her perceptions.

TN, since it has been awhile that I've been around here, can you tell me how things are today with your New T? The last time I was here I recall you were having some bumps in the road -- something about his wife working in an office next door and him trying to cover it up. Was that ever resolved? Have you arrived at a point where you feel you deeply trust him? Or do you still struggle with the effects of Old T or wonder if New T will hurt you again? Is it really a happy ending for you or is this still an ongoing trial?

((((Cipher)))

I remember you well it's good to see you, although so sad to see you struggling like this. I am so sorry about what has happened with your T, I know how important she was to you feeling safe,

I have to be careful not to trigger myself in what I write next but I wanted to say something that is really important. I understand totaly about being fed stuff about demons and devils being inside you, it is a hard and enduring piece of brainwashing that is difficult to disbelieve. I only wish though that you had my T who sits patiently hour after hour discounting that children have demons and devils inside them and reaffirming that indeed the people who sowed these ideas are the ones at fault, not the children. Just because you have child parts has nothing to do with demons Cypher and your T should know that or else she shouldn't be practising. This seems to be about HER issues and self protection from whatever is going on in her life and little it seems about caring for you.

I am sorry if this sounds in any way harsh, but from one who has a little inkling into how it feels to be told about demons etc I needed to tell you that I believe your T is wrong - and very wrong

Believe in yourself, gentle hug,

starfishy

quote:

You don't have to imagine it right now. All you have to do is take the first step. You start by going and numbly talking about what happened. You stay distant. You eventually find someone you can work with long term, by examining their consistency, knowledge, and integrity. You just keep going, keep numbly talking about it. With support, you rebuild the rest of your life. Years down the road, if it is deserved, trust will happen. And no, no T is fail-proof. You will hate them for not being your old one, and they will make mistakes, but if they are good enough and you stick with it, things will get better.

Cipher... that is exactly it. BLT said it perfectly.

As for your question about my T and I. We did work through his wife being in the next office. In over a year since she has had her nameplate on that door I have NEVER seen her. My T said he would protect me and he has. I don't know what went on behind the scenes and I don't want to know but I realize he is true to his work and he has looked out for me. So as time went on the anxiety and fear went away as I realized this would not be a replay of what happened with oldT and HIS wife.

AS for the other questions.... if you are up to it you can read my three threads in this forum, Talking about Love, Talking about Love Part II and The Letter.

This is part of what I wrote:

"Lastly, I would like to write him a letter for Christmas telling him how I feel about him. It's my gift to him for Christmas. I feel so good about our relationship lately. He has been so good to me, so kind and supportive. Yes, the work is hard and painful and I don't always like it, but it's really quite a miracle that after what oldT did to me, how badly he traumatized me.... that I could eventually with a lot of work come to not only trust a T again but also come to love him."

And this...

"Actually, the more I reflect on our relationship the move I am convinced that my T does love me. That is scary to write or think about. And part of me thinks I'm imagining this and it cannot be true. Yet, he says he is attached to me and then he says attachment is love. He says he cares about me, respects me, thinks I'm smart and have done amazing things in my life. He also told me once, "you are lucky that I adore you" when I made him crazy about some line of reasoning I was trying to make him follow. He does all kinds of things that show real deep caring like giving me his dragon that he had for over 20 years, sitting on the floor with me, reading to me, celebrating with me, and going through all kinds of gyrations to give me that last, closing session with oldT. I know he never did that before and he was even a bit unsure that it was the right thing. But because I wanted/needed it so badly he arranged it, even moving another client's session so we could have 2 hours. Should I chose to ignore all of these things and more so I can deny that he is showing me real love? I think right now I am able to accept that love and care and to believe it."


Cipher... I pasted these quotes not to upset you further or give you any pain... but to let you know that it is quite possible to trust and love another T, if they earn and deserve your love and trust. I would have never believed this was possible. But I do love my T. When I think about it it seems like a true miracle. The key is to find that right T for you. Someone with outside contact, yet with very good boundaries around it and who does not want to be your "friend" but keeps it all about you and does not hold out a promise of something that they cannot fulfill.

When I was abandoned I could not see any hope. I was lost in the darkness. My dear friend told me if I could not hope then she would just hope for me until I could do it myself. I could not believe I would ever trust or care for another T, yet when I met this T (after interviewing and seeing 4 others first) my friend told me he was a keeper and that she believed I would come to trust him and attach to him. She was right but it takes a long time and a lot of patience to get there.

In the end you just keep putting one foot in front of the other and eventually you see that you have traveled pretty far down this new road and things begin to feel easier and you develop a new rapport with your new T.

BTW, as for going back.... I used to tell my current T that I would walk through fire and crawl on broken glass to get back to oldT so I do understand the pull. But it would be unhealthy to go back for you unless it was a termination session for closure. I would never go back to oldT. I am in a much better place now.

If I can do anything to help you, please let me know.

Hugs
TN

TN

(((((CIPHER))))

Of course I remember you too! It's nice to see you but I'm so sorry it's because of what's going on for your T. Is it possible she's psychotic?

Everyone else has already given you such great advice that I don't have anything to add. Just wanted to send support and hugs.

((((Cipher)))) I only have phone access, no internet now, so I can't write as much as I would like, but I do remember you and the past boundry/trust issues with your T. I won't be super critical, but I am a Christian, working with a T whose main emphasis is Christian counseling AND working with a dissociative disorder and I can't believe your T would suggest demons. I am so sorry you are in this experience and that your T cannot seem to take responsibility for it. I don't have a lot of termination wisdom (only terror, because my T says all the same things they all seem to about never abandoning, etc.), so I will leave that part in the capable hands of so many others here. I just wanted you to know I'm here, listening, with

-Non (aka yakusoku, in case you don't recognize the new handle)

quote:

Just because you have child parts has nothing to do with demons Cypher and your T should know that or else she shouldn't be practising.

(((Cipher)))
I just wanted to reiterate one of the many excellent comments you have received.

deeplyrooted

cipher, i don't have anything to add but a little more support from the cafe. my thoughts are with you during this hardship. please remember to take good care of yourself during this difficult time.

Cipher, I'm so sorry. I feel for you. I know we had some 'words' about your T now and then, and I just want to come in and say - this is in NO WAY your fault. Your trust in her came from a very precious, sweet, loving part of you, and that is a GOOD part of you that deserves the chance - will ALWAYS deserve the chance - to love and trust safely. She has been unable to live up to what you gave her, but that is entirely her limitation, and not down to some flaw of yours. And certainly, I believe, absolutely not an issue of 'demons'. I think the demons are much more an issue of her traumas and instability and not yours.

I'll be wishing you the very best to get through this painful time safely, for you, for your family. Please listen to the wise folk on here about next steps. Trust in the friends who are looking out for you, and just keep putting one foot in front of the other until you make it to a safe place.

I am really touched by all your replies. I am having lots of tears at the moment because I just got done with a text exchange with my T, or maybe I should now say ex-T. I asked her if she intended to cut off all communication - texts, emails, iPad games, etc - or just sessions - and after beating around the bush she finally said yes, all of it is a threat to her. That was a blow because as of yesterday she was still willing to give me hugs if I wanted to stop in occasionally. I can't believe she can be this cruel and still claim that she "loves me and wishes it didn't have to be this way."

My H, who doesn't even know all of the details, thinks I should sue her for unethical termination. He is angry that she took me in for this attachment therapy, knowing how critical that trust would be, only to drop me with nowhere to land. I don't want to hurt her, I only want her to take me back and promise never to do this to me again.

I am going to go talk to my church/spiritual leader and ask him what he thinks, if he thinks there is any possibility of demonic possession or if he senses any evil presence in me. But even if he agrees that I am ok, I don't think it will be enough to convince my T. I bet she would just say that he is not tuned in enough to discern it.

So not only have I lost the comfort of physical contact, but also written contact, and especially I have lost her positive belief in me. That is what hurts most of all. If I had no contact because she had died, that would be hard, but at least I might feel some thread of attachment knowing that she had believed in me and loved me to the end. But this is worse than if she had just died, because she has taken away my self-esteem and emerging confidence that I was not an unworthy monster of a person.

BLT, you are right to perceive that if I go to a new T I know I will hate them for not being who I want them to be -- my beloved T. I remember TN saying the same thing about her anger at her new T at first. Fortunately, he was able to understand it and not make it about him personally. That was a good sign, wasn't it. That he could absorb the anger without reacting to it.

Starfishy, very glad to hear from you. But I am sorry if this subject is a triggery one for you. I don't want to bring up old wounds so I will understand if you need to withdraw from the conversation. But I am glad to know I have your heartfelt support and think you are lucky to have your T to believe in you.

quote:

Cipher... I pasted these quotes not to upset you further or give you any pain... but to let you know that it is quite possible to trust and love another T, if they earn and deserve your love and trust. I would have never believed this was possible. But I do love my T. When I think about it it seems like a true miracle.

TN, thank you for sharing because I do need some shred of hope to cling to. I am happy for you that it has turned out this way, and that not all stories like this have horrible endings.

Liese, it is nice to "see" you again too. And to you and to Closed Doors, its ok to not know what to say. I have been there so many times myself! But just knowing you care is enough.

Yaku, glad you identified yourself cuz I wouldn't have know who anonymously was! It hurts me than my posts only add more terror for those of you who haven't been abandoned by a T and live in fear that it may happen to you as well. Because I remember feeling that same fear everytime I read what others were going through, that their T's had all made the same promises to them, so how could I think my T would be any different? And obviously it turns out that my fears finally came true. Makes it hard to trust the whole counseling field. And this is the field I have been going to school for! I don't know how to continue if I have lost my faith in the profession.

Jones, didn't know if I would ever hear from you again. Glad you came. You and I started on this board at the same time. I remember you were one of the very first to greet me when I introduced myself in the beginning. So I sorta feel a special connection to you that way. Thank you for saying I deserve the chance to love and trust safely. I don't know if deserving it means we get it, but its nice to believe that we are worthy of it. I just need to drill that message into my core being somehow.

Cipher/MH. we've never had much to do with each other and I hope you don't mind me chipping in to say I so agree with what everyone has said - your T appears to have lost it and is projecting her own issues onto you!!! You are not possessed by demons Cipher and I hope you can hear the people here who know you well!! One foot in front of the other is enough but I do hope you can find another T to help you through this horrible situation.

Do take care of and be gentle with yourself.

Cipher, I feel that connection too, so I hurt for you to see what has happened. I used to fear back then that it would, because I had grave doubts about the way your T was handling boundary stuff. I say this not as 'I told you so', but so that you know that from this perspective it was visible that the problem and the responsibility was hers, and not yours. I also know how powerful that pull of attachment is, and that the best you could do all along was just to follow your heart. You have a very sweet heart. I believe you will find your way to the love and healing you need. Your commitment to growth is so deep and powerful. It WILL get you through. I'll be rooting for you.

xxJones

quote:

if he thinks there is any possibility of demonic possession or if he senses any evil presence in me. But even if he agrees that I am ok, I don't think it will be enough to convince my T. I bet she would just say that he is not tuned in enough to discern it.

Hi Cipher,

I just had to respond to this because it makes me so sad to read that you are doubting yourself and possibly blaming yourself for what has happened, and letting yourself believe that you could possibly be possessed. I know our Ts/Ps have such power when they speak to us, but what she said, in my opinion, is totally inappropriate, unprofessional and downright cruel.

I personally don't believe in demonic possession but even if it did exist, this isn't the middle ages where people are cast out and abandoned. She is a therapist and is responsible for your emotional well-being and she should have, at the very least, arranged several sessions for termination and lined up support for you.

I was abruptly terminated and went through a period of self blame, but later found out my exP was involved in a great deal of unethical practices which would explain his behavior. It took a couple of years with another P to sort out my feelings related to what happened, and realize just how destructive my exP's treatment was.

I know it's hard to even fathom some sort of action against your T at this time, and it's a hard decision to make, but she has caused terrible harm to you and is probably capable of harming others. I would consider reporting her to her licensing agency for this type of accusation against you, if you feel up to it.

I know things seem bleak right now, and you may be having a hard time imagining a future without her, even though she has hurt you, but you will get through this.

I hope your meeting goes well with your spiritual adviser.

Summer

Cypher,

I was having trouble with the whole concept of demons and so looked to wikipedia for a quick review. Here is just a small part of what I found:

"In monotheistic religions, the deities of other religions are sometimes interpreted or created as demons .....

There are many demons in Christian demonology, many of which were added because some Christian theologians concluded that all pagan deities were demons

......

In Christian tradition, demons are like angels: spiritual, immutable, and immortal. Demons are not omniscient, but each one has a specific knowledge (sometimes on more than one subject). Their power is limited to that which God allows, so they are not omnipotent ......


Christian demonology states that the mission of the demons is to induce humans to sin, often by testing their faith in God.[8]"



I emphasized this last part because to me it provided a bit of an explanation as to what might be going on here. There is something about your relationship that is tempting her to sin. It really sounds like projection. She is having a conflict that she cannot handle. Unfortunately, there is no test for therapists to ensure that they are on top of their own stuff and are aware of their own projections. It sounds like she is in this profession to meet her own needs and has put them above yours. It actually would seem like she loves you too much instead of not enough. I know it feels like rejection and is just awful no matter what way you look it but I just hope you will come to see that you are worthy and loveable and this is clearly about her and not a reflection of you.

Thank you Morgs, Jones, Summer, Monte, Liese, and Frustrated for your recent posts. I will try to get back later tonight after I have met with my spiritual advisor and then our family is celebrating my oldest child's birthday tonight as well. So it may be several hours before I get back here. But just quickly, I spoke on the phone to another therapist today who was pleasant and willing to answer my questions in the 10 minutes that she had, but I have some real reservations about it. For one thing, she isn't even accepting clients right now so I would have to be put on a waiting list, so she suggested her colleague who is newly hired, very green, just starting her supervised hours of experience, and younger than me. Ugh. I mean, I know all counselors have to start somewhere, but that is not what I was looking for. How could she possibly be prepared to handle someone like me? The pluses are that both of these women say they specialize in attachment issues. But then, so did my T, supposedly.

Gotta go but will update later...

Cipher... I would truly avoid a T that is new, young or inexperienced. You will have to process a lot of grief and your circumstances of the ending with your T require a T that is very experienced in trauma and attachment and who has gone through the process with others and who understands the process of healing from trauma. Okay that was a long sentence. But I think you need to take your time to find someone who will be able to handle the circumstances. I am not saying here that you are difficult or too much or your issues are too extreme... but I am saying that a new and inexperienced T would not be able to offer you the experience that would add so much to your therapeutic journey.

And I do understand that they have to start somewhere but prior failed therapies are a somewhat more specialized area of work. I would look for someone who is comfortable and experienced in this. And while they "specialize" in attachment issues that leaves a lot of ambiguity in just how many experiences that they have had in working with trauma and disorganized attachment clients.

Speaking from my own personal experience, it made a huge difference in my healing that my T has so much experience under his belt and that he trusts the process and that his favorite client is one who had a failed prior therapy experience, although as he tells me, he has never seen the level of abuse and abandonment that I suffered with oldT. That said, he has been a rock through all my grief, and some really bad negative transference.

I know you feel you need a T right away but I would carefully think through the type of T you need and the questions you would ask them to insure as best you can that it's a good fit.

Just my opinion. I hope you can enjoy your child's birthday and that your spiritual advisor is helpful.

Thinking of you
TN

Hey Cipher, I am checking back in with something.

After my term - she only had about 5 years experience - I went back to my T whom I hadn't seen for 10 years - we discussed the issues relating to the termination. My T said that a good T cannot really get the nuances, have the experience or be able to be equipped to handle attachment issues / trauma stuff / more complex counselling unless they have had at least 10 years experience. And the more the better.

SO i agree with what TN has said and steer clear of any newly graduated T with limited experience.

Somedays

Hello friends, I am extremely distraught. It has been so hard to hold myself together for my son's birthday. I've broken down a number of times today but tried not to do it in his presence. But I promised I would try to get back here tonight.

I met with my church leader. I think it was a mistake. He doesn't think I have any evil spirits inside, which almost disappoints me because I kind of wanted to have him "cast something out" to satisfy my T. He does believe in the existence of evil spirits, but he just doesn't think I have them inside because he has only seen the better side of me.

But I also don't think he is capable of understanding my grief. He is not a trained counselor and I knew that, but although he was kind he still didn't seem to "get" what attachment therapy was about. He comes from the school that therapy ought to be brief or else it becomes handicapping. After I let him read her termination email, he also voiced the opinion that my T probably thought she had reached a point where she had done all she could for me and that was why she was letting me go.

The thought that maybe T is lying about her reasons and really just wants to be rid of me hurts even worse than her saying she is only trying to protect us both from demonic harm. I am starting to doubt whether my T is being honest about her reasons. And I suspect she may have changed her phone number so that I can't text her anymore. I am crumbling inside with the possibility that she never intended to give me a legitimate chance to return no matter what efforts I go through to please her. She doesn't want me back and this is just an excuse, isn't it. All the times she said she loved me, it was just a lie. I can't believe how long and how well she lied to me about her feelings for me. How could she be such a good actor for so long if she detested me so? I don't want to go on. I know I have to, at least for a little while. But I cant see squeezing out the will to go on and keep faking that life means anything now for very much longer.

I called back the office of the potential new female T's I was checking into to tell them I just didn't think their inexperience was a good fit for what I would bring to the table. I really don't want them to practice on me and then find out they can't handle it and abandon me too.

There is one other female T about 40 minutes away that I left a message for tonight. I know who she is, what she looks like, and a tiny bit about her background because her daughter was in one of my college classes and had her mom come to our class as a guest speaker. I know she has been practicing longer than the other two I checked into, but she will need to be subjected to my 10-item questionnaire when/if she calls back. If she ends up not being a good match, I will be seriously tempted to curl up on the floor into a fetal position and

oh crap i just woke up from dozing off at the keyboard. I'm bit exhausted by my emotions it seems. Please forgive me

Hey Lady! I have nothing useful to say other than you've done well to get through another day and held up for your son's birthday!! You say your spiritual leader was no help but truly I think he has been - he sees 'YOU' not just the best you and most clearly not demons and he would know if he met one!! Listen to your friends here who know you and your history with your t! coz they/we will do everything to help you through this! have to go now but sending you positive thoughts. x

quote:

All the times she said she loved me, it was just a lie. I can't believe how long and how well she lied to me about her feelings for me. How could she be such a good actor for so long if she detested me so?

I don't think it was a lie, Cipher. I think she did feel she loved you, but she was incapable of taking care of you well, especially over the long term. I've had a few friends who were emotionally unstable and even though they loved me, they up and stopped speaking to me very suddenly at some point.

I know the most natural way for you to take this, given your background, is that this is about YOU and YOU being unlovable. It's not. It's about HER, and HER failure to know how to love you competently.

I've said many times on this forum that the feeling of love is NOT ENOUGH for our T's to have for us. They need to be able to manage their own stuff also, know how to hold boundaries and be consistent. Your T failed in those areas very gravely, but it has NOTHING to do with you.

You need to persevere in finding a better match, and this board is here to support you in it.

Cipher,

I just want to reinforce what BLT so wisely said. I do believe your T loves you and has not been faking all of these feelings. Its just that BLT is right, love is not enough. I think your T, because of a lack of understanding of why the boundaries are necessary, became caught up in giving you enough to heal you. But she is human and has human limitations and no matter how much she loves you, she cannot do the impossible. This is the problem when a therapist does not have a good handle on their own boundaries and limitations. They cross them and try to do the impossible and eventually it will drain them, not because they don’t have good intentions or really care, but because no one would have enough love to give. Nor is it the client’s fault. We are of course looking for that which we needed so much and have longed for our whole lives. The boundaries are the T’s responsibility. Unfortunately, even though this is her failure and her limitations, you pay the price.

I’m including a quote from a post on my blog How do I fill the void? that I think explains what I mean:

quote:

So, no matter how deeply committed a therapist is to our well-being, no matter how much they may love us, or how far they are willing to go in pursuit of demonstrating that love, it cannot be enough, because in some sense, we have no place to put it; we cannot integrate that love into an unconscious, “felt” experience of being loved and of being worthy of that love. This is a difficult lesson on both sides of the couch. After all, if what is missing was parental love, then if we are loved now, everything will be fixed, right? It can look like that to a young, inexperienced therapist [ or to a therapist whose own needs to rescue or avoid grief blocks this understanding - AG] as easily as it does to a client (sometimes for the same reason of avoiding the grief of facing the loss). BN once told me that he had to learn the hard way that he could not provide a tissue box (parental love) for his client (he was using props ) no matter how much he wanted to, but he could provide a coffee mug (unconditional “agape” love) which while not enough to make the loss disappear WAS enough for a client to heal. If a therapist does not recognize this important distinction and sets forth on a mission to provide that missing parental love, they find themselves in the position of trying to fill something that can never be filled. The client, who has been looking for this love their whole life, will cling to the amazing possibility of finally completing their life long quest. Eventually, the therapist wears down and has nothing left to give and so pulls back from the client, breaking, once again, the implicit promise made to the client. And so they become another person who promised to love and care for them, who instead abandoned and hurt them. And trust, which was already the most difficult thing in the world to achieve, becomes nigh impossible. It is why the boundaries are SO critically important. A therapist must try their utmost to never hold out the promise of anything they cannot deliver. They must be cruel to be kind. Better to be told up front you cannot have something, then to be told you can, only to have it snatched away. Again. Never was the BN swifter to speak, then when he had to tell me no. For she has become one more person who promised to finally love you well enough, only to be the next in the long line of people who abandoned you.

This is also why I believe she is sincere in believing that this is a case of demon possession. Believing that lie is what protects her from facing her own culpability in what is going on. Cipher, I am sorry because I know you love her and I do NOT believe she is doing this consciously, but I believe your T is putting her own needs before your own. Which is what makes this situation so abusive. But FWIW, I believe her intentions and desires were to do quite the opposite.

I very much agree with what so many have said, that its important that you "persevere in finding a better match" as BLT said. You deserve to heal, not to be further injured.

AG

BLT and AG, thank you for at least giving me the comfort of believing that maybe she wasn't lying about loving me.

I did something that would probably disappoint you. I wrote an email to my T begging her to give me another chance. I told her that even though I thought her decision was prematurely made, that I felt some responsibility for not always being honest with her (though not in the way she believes). I said maybe I deserved this action as a chastisement from God, but I cannot bear it. So I asked her to take me back for a trial period and I would try to be as open with her as possible and not hold back, even though it would be difficult and cause pain, and after the trial period she could then make her final decision whether she could continue to work with me.

But then after I sent it and sat crying and grieving on my couch and tried to imagine what would happen if she actually agreed to my proposal. I realized that if I went back it would be more difficult than ever to be open and honest with her, because of the trust that has been destroyed. I would be in terror that at any future moment she might terminate me again, and with that kind of fear it would paralyze my tongue. So I wrote T another email saying on second thought, I don't know that I can keep that promise after all, to suddenly force myself to talk, immediately after having been abandoned. I said it might take 6 more years to repair the damage of what we had lost from the last 3 years of work. So maybe all is lost.

It hurt so bad to write that second email to her because it feels like I have no choice but to acknowledge there is no hope. Right now I am surviving on Valium and its not enough to deaden the pain. You have all been kind and supportive and there is not really much more that you can say than what has already been shared. I am thinking I will try to get through this weekend trip to CA for a planned family reunion and fake the smiles as best as I can. I don't want to fall apart today and force my kids to miss this trip they have been anticipating. My goal is just to make it through Monday. And then I don't care if I fall apart. Maybe I will have to ask my doc to admit me to a psych unit for awhile. I just gotta make it through this weekend somehow. I hope I can muster the strength.

(((Cipher))) Please don't worry about being judged here, you are not. My only feeling is one of compassion for the terrible pain that you are in. One day at a time is not a bad plan right now. I am so very sorry, I hope you can find some relief soon.

AG

(((CYPHER)))

Just wanted to send hugs and support. I also wanted to tell you about something I read the other day. They've discovered that the way we feel emotional pain is the same as the way we feel physical pain. They did a study and gave participants advil and the ones who took advil felt less emotional pain. I know it sounds nutty but thought I'd pass it along in case it actually might help - especially with what you have going on this weekend.

Like AG, I'm not judging you. I have been amazed by your strength and honesty actually both in telling us what has been going on for you and in writing the second email.