Well, I guess I will be blunt here too.

Other could beg to dinner, but in my own opinion, it's not a T's job to say mean and insensitive things. If yours does that, I would stop second guessing yourself and find a new T. You have enough to deal with already.



You deserve better than this. Really.

Thanks Alpaca.

I keep reading here that feeling hurt is all about things that I'm projecting on my T about my past, and that there is some pain I am supposed to endure. But I have a life to lead, a degree to finish, and a business to start.

This sucks. I really like my T and it breaks my heart to walk away feeling this cynical.

I will think about this, seriously, thanks Alpaca!

At some point you do have to be able to draw a line between what is pain from our past, and what is a legitimate gripe in the present.

Feeling pain because your T redecorated or took longer than usual to answer an email is one thing...when it's obvious that they have not done anything actually wrong. It's another when a T is honest to goodness acting like a jerk. I think you should trust yourself on this one.

number9, I'm sorry that you feel T is mean and insensitive to you during therapy. I am someone who feels a lot of pain in therapy but my T has never called me sensitive or said I"m not like a "normal" person. Whenever I use the terms sensitive or normal my T doesn't let me get away with it. When I've told T that he has hurt me he doesn't put it all back on me. He will tell me that he didn't mean what I thought he did by what he said and he'll explain what he meant. Eventually I can see that what really hurt about what my T said or did is what I thought he meant by it or how it reminds me of my past. This week I was talking about my siblings and how they treat me and I got really upset and didn't want to talk about it because we've already talked about it before. For a brief moment before he encouraged me to talk about it some more my T smiled. Today I sent him an email telling him I felt like he was laughing at me when he smiled and he responded immediately to tell me he wasn't laughing at me but he was thinking about how little patience I have with myself in thinking that talking about something once would work through it. I know we'll talk about it further in my next session.

If I thought my T actually meant to hurt me or felt like I wasn't "normal" enough compared to other patients I would look for another T. I think you deserve to be supported in a gentle way.

Ditto. Yes, well, even if someone were 'secure', I don't think they'd put up with any form of name-calling anyway. I don't think this kind of reaction is purely always from the past. It's a demand to be respected as a human being and an individual.

And in therapy, gentleness is key. I would prefer my therapist to suggest that I have certain traits I need to work on in a gentle way. Being forward about it and blunt...well, we've had enough of this treatment I think? I think you have number9 hon. So many of us have here.

We need caring, compassionate, kind speaking people. We've had enough of spite and anger and selfishness and loss.

Trust your gut I know it's hard. See how you feel. With you all the way

quote:

At some point you do have to be able to draw a line between what is pain from our past, and what is a legitimate gripe in the present

Exactly! This is what I would do in real life. It seems like if we are unable to make this distinction in therapy as well, or are discouraged from doing so, we're going to have a much harder time "out there".

I just can't abide by all these therapy games and "tricks" (Yes, I have heard other therapists use this term... tricks, having tricks up their sleeves, etc) I don't like games. It's funny how T's accuse some of being manipulative (I have not been accused of doing that) but are tricky as can be. Or who won't use the term "love" but will talk about "tough love" as though it's some new toy that they just got that they want to play with.

Not on me.

Yes, I have had enough. I knew this when I came in. This helps, I was wondering, honestly, if this is part of the "process"... putting up with this crap. Maybe part of the process is being strong enough not to, and learning to tell the difference between projection and real, legit anger.

Funny how he told me that I need to trust my own instincts. Now I feel bad because I am imposing an ultimatum. If he were unable to apologize, it would be hard, but I think it would be time for me to leave. He's close to 3 strikes. The apology helped.

And here I thought my flaw was harsh black and white thinking. And here it is, helping me out again, like an old friend. I feel like we are on thin ice with our relationship.

Thanks for keeping me from sliding into cynicism, FMN and incognito!

Number9,

You ask so many good questions. I can tell you from my own experience that my T was using "evidence based" techniques with me that most of his other clients respond to. But it was triggering for me and caused a lot of problems for me. Am I too sensitive? IDK. It was just playing right into my childhood issues and I never developed the ability (mainly a sense of self) to get past it. And, so his techniques were not working with where I was developmentally.

I went on a bunch of consults and actually got outside validation that he was not the most sensitive person. I was on the verge of a huge crisis this past summer and it was this that caused him to look at himself and see that what he was protraying was not what he thought he was portraying.

So, I guess the long and the short of it is that you need to trust your instincts. Maybe he's just not the right T for you. Have you considered a consult?

HUGS,

Liese

Thanks, Liese!

I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all. I thought that my unwillingness to "take crap from anyone" was a strength, (and it is) but I may be sensitive about certain things underneath it all.

But I did get validation (partly from here) that my T can be a little insensitive at times. He says that he is not trying to hurt me and part of me just wonders if he is naturally clueless at times, but he has a good heart. He has apologized, but still seems to think that it's about me and my reactions, not him. Hopefully he will see that what he is portraying is not what he thinks he is portraying, and can take responsibility for his part in it all. But I can't control other people and their actions.. I think I just said that to someone else earlier, and I must remember what I preach, hard as this is.

Ah, yes. Trust my instincts, one of the reasons I am in therapy. What a lesson it is, isn't it?

I am doing a consult and taking a week off to think. I can handle the gap, but part of me still fears that he will decide to leave first, that I will text him next week and he will tell me that we need to part ways. My imagination comes up with the worst case scenario. I can understand the pain that some are going through here because of my fear.

Hugs to you as well!

No9

Hi number9! I'm not sure if we've ever talked before, so if not, Welcome!!

When I read your post, it hurt so much, because so many things about it reminded me of an experience I had with a T about two and a half years ago. He was the first one to really try to listen seriously to why I was seeking help. However, as time went on, I saw so much of the same progression as you are seeing - more pain, more crying, more distrust - and lots of apparent "game-playing" on his part - and I asked the same questions, thought the same things as you, that he seemed to say several really harsh unkind thoughtless things, without it helping, and I began to think the more he got to know me, the more he didn't like me, and the less trusting I felt. BUT I kept thinking, it must be transference, it must be my imagination, therapy is "supposed" to be painful, he must be playing these games for my "benefit"...so I kept going anyway...and when I took a leap of trust, one that he'd been blatantly encouraging me to take for four months, he abruptly terminated me.

All of this was extremely painful and confusing. But I leaned really heavily on this board at that time, and very fortunately found an awesome T a few weeks later, and eventually through working with her, realized that what I experienced with him was not all "my stuff" or my imagination. At the very least, it was a really bad therapeutic "fit". Personally I think it was more than that, I think somehow I triggered a lot of his unconscious stuff. But at any rate, there was a lot of "unnecessary" and unhelpful pain, and ultimately I'm very glad the therapy with him ended and I was able to find someone I could work with and make some progress.

I just wanted to say that I see a lot of red flags in what you are describing, and it sounds to me like it would be a very good idea for you to consult with another T or two to check things out. I am very inclined to think, based on your account, that this is not your imagination, and not all "your stuff" as he is claiming. I wish you the very best of luck and healing.

Peace,
SG

Strummer Girl: Thank you! Nice to meet you as well!

Catalyst: Hello again!

OK, I'm reading both of these replies and I feel so honored to get this feedback. Such thoughtful replies. I see much value in both! I need to read them again and absorb it all and process it, to just shut up and listen and think and respond later.

I feel some peace, even though this is complicated. I will make some tea and sleep on it.

This is a really good thread for me to read, too. I am in a very similar position with my therapist right now, and it makes me feel sick. It's really hard to think about leaving him, but I keep having issues that make me think he's not good for me. All of my friends who have heard me talk about him think it doesn't sound right, and they have thought this since I first started having trouble with him over a year ago. I realize that if he were a boyfriend or something and they all felt that way, their knowledge of me and their concern for me would carry some weight. But this is not a boyfriend situation. Still, it's an important relationship. It seems pretty complicated to me.

Now I am having additional trouble because I tried to get an adjunct therapist for a specific issue short-term, and he seems to be upset and threatened by it and a little mad and a little tired of me. Was I not supposed to tell him?

I keep thinking that there's a method to his madness, and then I keep doubting that he's trying to do anything purposeful at all, but just bumbling along with me. And it hurts, of course.

Everyone's replies to Number9 here are REALLY helpful to me right now. THANK YOU.

Number9, good luck!!

Thanks Quell and Kansas!

I was just about to re-post after backing off for a bit.

He has apologized, but/and still says that "all I seem to take away is pain"-

I'm feeling ambivalent. Not in an intensely emotional way. I just feel like I don't want to share my vulnerability with someone who at any time could step on it again.

I wanted to make sure that I shared with you all some of the exact words so that I do not feel like I am over-reacting. Also sharing with you that I did put him on the spot in regards to the question about my appearance.

The raising of his voice, the use of harsh language, was unprovoked, he just got tired of me intellettualizing and withdrawing and projecting and making judgements/black and white assessments. (not on him, nor another person, but something from the outside world that triggered me, pissed me off, but never raised my voice or used harsh language) But he never wanted to gently explore WHY I do those things.

He made an entire dx about my personality based on the B&W thinking, and I called him on it. He doesn't know much about these things, and retracted it. But as a result I feel shame, a vague feeling of ugliness on the inside and outside. Nothing about me has changed, I just feel like I have been railroaded into pathologies I didn't think I had. I was not aware that black and white thinking and severe depression and withdrawing constituted a personality disorder, and that just made me want to crawl under a rock, or fight back, either of which would have (have been) even more damning to me.

I feel like no matter what I do, it will become some sort of negative self-fulfilling prophecy. And I don't want to put it ALL back on him.

Those things he said feel like too much of an assessment of my essence, my entire being. Is this what it means to have someone "tell it like it is?" Others tell me I'm a good person and that I'm very attractive. Why does his opinion matter? He has asked me that himself.

And now... I am feeling not emotional, but flat. I used to be like an excited little kid, wanting to share things... thoughts, insights, photos, etc. And I have lost that. I don't know what he will do next, even though he has apologized. It feels like a loss of innocence, like there is no going back.

I can't beat him up either. What would be the point? To make him feel the same pain? Guilt? No point in that. But I just... don't want to share anymore. I have done this with my family as well. No drama, I just kind of disappear. I don't want this to happen again.

In that sense, he is correct, I would be repeating the past. If he wants to do this "reparenting" thing, he would literally have to tell me how wonderful I am about 3x per day for the next year or so before I would begin to believe him. And I don't feel like becoming a black hole, a vampire, an energetic drain on anyone. So.... I tend to withdraw.

Perhaps some of you recognize how I do tend towards "either/or" thinking- make friends with it, or shoot it, or run away. Friend or Foe. What is the middle ground here? Is there one? Should I continue on, feeling like something is just "off"?

Dammit, I really am/was? attached to the bastard! He is very kind, and real, 95.7% of the time.

Is this weird? I feel oddly detached. Like I'm really, truly ready to not care anymore, to just enjoy my solitude, hunker down, lots of people do it, why can't I as well?

I'm not trying to be pathetic. Yeah, I'll watch some movies that glorify/romaticize the lone hero and fool myself for a while, till I get lonely/desperate enough to call T.

I put all my "lameness" in one place, and he sees it. Nobody else that I see on a day to day basis needs to know.

I feel sadness and grief. I don't know if I'll be able to "break up" just yet.

Your posts are so kind, thanks so much. Maybe there is a better way. If this keeps up, all my energy will be gone. Such fun choices. At least I don't try to change him, I am wise enough to see the futility in trying to change another person. Reframing? This feeling runs deep. I could tell him all this, too.

Kansas, thanks... no games, no more games! and Quell, let me know how it goes!

I will do the same.

v

Thanks so much, Muff!

I don't think I did a very good job expressing my gratitude to you guys, just started to ramble again. And I am repeating myself.

Your posts mean a lot to me! And sometimes I confide more in you all than to my T. Well, not always.

But damn, you guys are good. This sick feeling- is it shame? or anger? Energetically, anger is on a higher level than shame. Only anger can move and transform the muck that is shame.

What I wish he would have done, when he raised his voice (to get through to my defenses) during my "bitch" session, was ask WHY those things triggered anger in me. Or even now, he is avoiding talking about the whole appearance thing- he wants to move on and talk about "other things".

Because I can let some of this stuff out and still hold onto my observer self. I want him to allow me to do that and still see me in the same positive light he saw me in when we first met.

(the sick feeling also feels like grief)

I will bring all this up during our next session. I want to give it another chance. You guys were my consult. I promise if he does this again I won't come crying to you guys, it must seem ridiculous.

OK, enough, time for bed.
Much gratitude, I feel more at peace.

v

Number9
If you post about your stuff, it makes it easier for me to post about mine, and learn from others. The sick feelings I have been having I think must be a sort of anxiety. I'm not very familiar with the feeling. I will bet that I've had plenty of anxiety, but have not usually felt it that way. I keep using the phrase in my head that "it makes me feel like I want to puke." The funny thing is that this latest rift with my T is related to an eating disorder issue involving purging. The adjunct consult was supposed to be with someone who has experience with those issues.

I am struggling with the fear of breaking up and also feeling like I can't 100% trust my T.

Keep us posted, please. It helps a lot of us.

An update: My T ended up apologizing and admitting that his words were rude. It was a sincere apology.

He also admitted feeling manipulated. (I'm glad he's that honest) That is not something I typically do, but I asked the classic female question that there is no correct answer to. Which is very manipulative.

"Am I attractive?" or... for another, it may be "Do I look fat in this?" on and on...

Guys HATE these questions, it puts them on the spot. They ARE manipulative questions. (Not judging anyone here but myself) I think that we as women often (are there any men here today?) give away some of our own power when we ask these questions. So we were both at fault, and we both apologized.

He's not a blank slate, that is for sure.And I love that about him. Had he not apologized (most sincerely) yes, that would be an indication for me to move on. It would have been quite damaging to the relationship. My gut would have been in knots. However, I like my T (attached, etc- I looked up the definition and it really just means that I'm quite fond of him, there there is no substitute for who he is,in other words, in a pinch, I'm not interested in talking to another T... and it would be painful to endure a forced separation (a permanent or long one) So.. attached. OK. BUT... that is why my gut was in knots.. I DO care, very much, about the relationship. I VERY MUCH want to trust him. And I like him.

There really is no sexual transference,(not enough to really matter, but I'm not dead yet, he IS attractive) Anyway, we do phone therapy, and I'm not an idiot, and we are both mature and honest about it all, so there is safety there. I told him that his reaction to me was about personal power and the POSSIBILITIES of forming relationships (not realities, I don't WANT to date) with other intelligent and attractive (to me) men my age.

So this whole thing is really about personal power, in a sense. Without it, it is easier to get hurt. That sick feeling... was HURT. I stumbled upon something that I was perhaps hiding from myself as a 45 year old woman, facing aging, and the prospect of spending the rest of my life alone. Coming to terms with it.

I also shared with him (politely) that it took me a while to get to the point where I don't accept certain words or behaviors from others (abuse) and I deal with it on the spot rather than stewing over the words and behaviors later and wanting to explode, or (more commonly) letting the resentment turn into anxiety or depression...or that "sick feeling" ... which is there to TELL us that SOMETHING IS WRONG.

He said he totally respects that.More than that.. he said he admires me for it/is proud of me for it. (When he says something like this, I believe him!) So.. he does seem to be growing, and I am as well. I just don't respond to bluntness or aggression. I told him that it is easier to admit my own shortcomings when I'm not trying to dodge bullets- unpredictable attacks, etc.

Apologies are a good thing- to receive, and to give.

I'm also exploring the possibility that I value his opinion and the opinion of men a bit too much. I can do certain things to enhance my own attractiveness, but attraction is an odd thing. Quite often men that are not very attractive judge women quite harshly, and the irony of this (Howard Stern syndrome) is something I discussed with my T. He genuinely likes women, prefers their company as a matter of fact. Things he has said in the past confirm this. He reassured me quite a bit.

I sometimes find myself attracted to someone who is not "classically beautiful/handsome" .. and he said he does the same thing.

So I'm not going to worry about pleasing anyone but myself for now.

What else.. yes, trust the gut, trust the instincts. The sick feeling is gone. He has not repeated his mistakes. If there was a pattern, I would have to let go, and perhaps lean on you guys till I found some support.

It's OK! (can I say that without jinxing it all?) Now there's a topic for another day.

One more thing...

If this had not happened in therapy, I would not have been as prepared to deal with it "in real life".

That is why I like how it feels "real"- even though the relationship is a one-way relationship. He does NOT dump anything on me, the amount of self-disclosure is/has been perfect.

Hope this helps/is relevant somehow.

Number9. See sometimes it is the other person and I dont know about you but I have trouble validating myself and often need validation. But when you are trying Ti get that validation from the person who is hurting you, and they have their own point of view and perhaps their own blind spot, that's where the Trouble and the pain comes. But your t was able to admit his part in it and you stood up for yourself and how awesome is that? The relationship grew and you both probably feel better about things now.

Way to go!

Liese

Liese,

Exactly! This thing caught me off guard. Damn external validation, damn trust issues, sucks when they come together like this to cause pain...

Thanks so much!