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Today I saw NewT again and it went pretty well... better than Wednesday which left me feeling upset and angry with him... and very triggered over Thanksgiving. I had a longing so intense it was very painful and I so wanted to reach out to my old T to talk to him or at least share some of my thoughts with him. I miss him terribly.

And Monday's are hard days for me and it seems that I have now somehow fallen into newT's Monday schedule. I'm not sure if it helps or makes me feel even worse because I am not where I really want to be. And so,

NewT asked me how I was and how was the holidays and so I told him how I wrote an email to oldT but never sent it because everyone told me it would be a really bad idea. He agreed with that because he does not want to see me hurt again. He also told me that oldT never responded to his request for a treatment summary on me and so I asked what do we do next? He said he would give him a call to follow-up on it. He said he obviously is not happy about writing it and probably wishes I would go away so he does not have to think about and face what he did to me. I told newT I'm not going away and that I need some closure and some answers.

Then I told newT that I felt like my T wished I would just die. If I die I won't be a reminder of what happened. He said no he would not want that for me because I need to remember the good things he did with me. But I asked him "how could he be so cruel and so mean to me, a patient he said he cared for and cared about and how could he hurt me so much... he is in the "healing" profession, he is not supposed to hurt me so badly". At that point I saw newT get a bit emotional and he said he just does not know what would make him behave like this but we don't know what is going on with him. There could be something seriously wrong with him. I have no idea what he was alluding to ... like maybe a depression or a breakdown?

NewT said that I am powerful. We were having a back and forth on the fact that my T had all the power and I had none. He said I had a lot of power but I countered with but he had the power that counted... if he sees me or not... nothing else really matters if I can't see him. NewT kept saying I was one of the most powerful patients he had ever treated in both knowledge and personality and that I have to stop giving my power to people who are less powerful than I am. I have to think about that one for a bit. He said what was confusing to oldT was that I was powerful and ALSO dependent. I think we need to explore this further.

I then told him that I was angry with him about a few things. One is the eye contact he wants. I told him I'm not feeling safe enough to keep eye contact with him. And that I was able to do this with oldT because I felt safe and also because of what I got back from him... his empathy, warmth and caring. Not feeling that with newT very much... no warm fuzzies...well maybe a little today. He told me he needs me to look at him so that I can see his reactions to what I'm telling him. If I look down then I miss a lot of important non-verbal info. I know this but it's still hard.

I also asked him if he thinks he can learn from me and he said yes that he always learns from patients about them and about himself too. So I told him that I felt that he acted like he already knows everything LOL... and that he was not listening to me. He laughed good naturedly and asked me to explain further which I did. He was very open to hearing me which was good.

Then I told him he insulted my cultural heritage regarding gifts of food and that in my culture that is important... that we don't go see people for any lenght of time empty - handed and if I HAD brought him something and he refused I would have been very insulted. He had said I brought things to oldT because I was taking care of him. I did not agree. It was also a way of allowing T to know me better and to open conversations.

I think it was good to clear the air between us. He said I presented my issues in a very good way and that he is impressed that despite what happened to me he sees no malice in me. He said I am a challenge in that I don't want anyone to take care of me and that is his job and we sort of differed on that. He said that if he ever seems defensive that I need to let him know as he tries not to be.

He also said that in his view once we become a part of each others lives (via therapy) that we are that forever. Meaning that my therapy never ends unless I want it to. He does not terminate people. I told him that once I got well with oldT I was afraid he would make me leave or I would HAVE to leave and he said why? Once you get well then that's the time for growth and change and sharing. Gosh, wish old T had stressed that to me.

We talked about trust and he asked me how do you develop trust? I said obviously I have no idea since I screwed up that part of therapy. He of course said it was NOT my fault and then went on to say that he needs to be totally consistent, dependable, and unchanging and then trust will come with time. In other words, as AG's T has said "he just has to BE trustworthy" in order to earn the trust. He cannot just say "trust me". Does not work that way.

Of course we also went over and over how I did nothing wrong and it was oldT who had the problem with inexperience, fear of intimacy, and lack of supervision and knowledge. And of course... none of this helps me to feel better. I told him that when someone dies and you grieve you have a place to go to, a grave to bring flowers to, to sit there and talk to the person and everyone around you understands why you are such a mess. I don't have that place. No one has died, except for me, my spirit and my hope. I am just having the hardest time trying to accept what happened to me. It's months later and I'm still in shock, so sad and lifeless. So newT said that maybe we could find a place for me to go to grieve and bring flowers and try to come to terms with the loss.

That's about it. I felt okay afterwards but then something triggered me and I was a mess for the rest of the day at work, accomplishing nothing, spinning around endlessly and just feeling frustrated by life.

Thanks for listening.
TN
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Hi TN,

Your post brought tears to my eyes. It was such an honest account of how you are feeling. And I love that you were able to share what you are feeling with your new T. And I also love how he accepts everything you have to say. I love all the nice things he told you about yourself. About being one of the strongest and most knowledgeable patients he's ever treated. I love how he blames old T for everything.

It must be so hard not to be able to grieve as if someone died. I hadn't thought of it that way but you are very right about that. It was so brutal to lose the relationship like that and feel so totally cut off and like you said, powerless.

The powerful but also dependent statement was very interesting. What do you make of that?

And so, you saw him last Monday and last Wednesday and this Monday?
Yes, Liese, I saw him twice last week. He had a cancellation and fit me in. He said he would like to see me twice a week if he can manage it, at least for awhile. I was practically seeing my old T twice a week, once for me and then I would at least check in during my son's session for a few minutes. And sometimes I would just take his session when something huge was going on.

I think perhaps the powerful but dependent comment relates to the two extremes of me that probably confused my old T and made it more difficult for him to know how to treat me, especially lacking the experience that newT has. It was hard to reconcile my powerful knowledge and insight with the very fearful, needy part of me that wanted reassurance from my T and wanted to cling to him at times. Anyway, this is what I think he means... I need to explore it further w/him.

TN
That's great that he wants to see you twice a week. Do you think so too? Are you happy about that? My t never tells me how often he wants to see me. He leaves it up to me. And I hate that. So I am happy for you that new T took control like that.

Yes, that powerful yet dependent thing sounds like it needs more exploring. What are your current thoughts on new T? Are you liking him more?

Do you know what I like about you? It's that you seem to be okay just being where you are at. You're very honest with new T how you are feeling about old T. I was trying to think about when I started with my current T and I was traumatized by my old T. I did talk to him some about her and he was very patient with me but at some point I felt like I wasn't pleasing him (my problem, I know) by talking about her so much ... I thought perhaps he was getting jealous that I wasn't bonding with him yet ... so I kind of stopped and I'm not sure I really ever fully understand or got from him why things went so badly with old T. He never really criticized her, except once he did say, "I don't treat like that" ... So I never really got the satisfaction of him saying it was her fault that things got so screwy. So I am glad you are getting that from new T. I know it doesn't really help yet to hear it. But at least he's saying it.
quote:
It's months later and I'm still in shock, so sad and lifeless.


Dear TN,

Sometimes when I see you write a comment like this I want to go back to that thing I wrote about finding an alteration of feelings at three weeks - I don't even know if you remember it - and erase it. I hope it hasn't stayed with you but regardless, I want to say there is no timetable for grief. My earlier comment was only meant to say that in my times of grief in losing a relationship it has helped me to know that at some point the brain will alter its patterns in relation to that person. But it's always gradual, it's always particular to the circumstances. However long it takes is how long it takes.

I am 120% convinced that the volume and depth of your grief makes perfect sense - is the only possible logical outcome - of your own specific internal circumstances; everything you've been through in your life and its meaning. I know it's so painful day to day, but I'm wishing you the freedom to honour the process, the depth of its significance, not to rush it.

Take care,
Jones
Jones, no worries. I do remember that and it did not upset me. Maybe it's good for me to know that eventually my brain will right itself and I will be able to come to terms with the loss. NewT has very clearly labeled what happened to me a trauma and perhaps some trauma takes more time. It's a mix of grief and pure shock over what happened mixed in with an inability to accept what happened. I still wake up with panic at the loss of him from my life. My body shakes with the trauma until I can breathe again and calm myself down. I do this each morning.

But today at least I even cared enough to challenge newT on some things. I stayed and talked it through. With the other Ts I saw I just left and never went back... so I take this as a small positive sign that newT is the right T for now because I care enough to at least stay with him. Not sure why at this point.

I know that the grief will find and follow it's own timetable but it sure as heck hurts a lot in the meantime.

I appreciate your caring, Jones. Thank you.

TN
quote:
"how could he be so cruel and so mean to me, a patient he said he cared for and cared about and how could he hurt me so much... he is in the "healing" profession, he is not supposed to hurt me so badly".

Oh , heck just what I was saying to my new T yesterday too, just the same. It hurts. Today I felt like a part of me died when i walked away from her for the last time.
Frowner
quote:
It's a mix of grief and pure shock over what happened mixed in with an inability to accept what happened. I still wake up with panic at the loss of him from my life. My body shakes with the trauma until I can breathe again and calm myself down. I do this each morning.


Maybe I should not even be reading your posts, TN - they are so close to the bone for me. but I am astounded/supported how similar this place is for us.

My new T listened whilst I went on about how cruel the termination was. And I said " I wish it did not hurt so much. It SHOULD not hurt so much!" and she said "Why?" I replied,"because she can walk away and feel okay and I have this horrible nagging gnawing pain eating at my chest."
"Sheychen, this is NORMAL - it is going to hurt for a while yet, you were HURT by what happened. Feeling hurt is normal here."
I looked at her puzzled.

also somewhere in there TN, you write that something died in you. You ALSO feel this! I only realised that I felt this, this morning, that something DIED in me, when I walked away from her for the last time.

god, this is hell.

I miss her so much. And yet, I also don't want to see her accidentally (though I have never bumped into her fortunately) as that would be too traumatic too.

I am probably not helping, but oh god, I feel for you, I feel for us both.
quote:
I saw newT get a bit emotional and he said he just does not know what would make him behave like this but we don't know what is going on with him. There could be something seriously wrong with him. I have no idea what he was alluding to ... like maybe a depression or a breakdown?


T's have breakdowns too you know, especially if they are not in supervision. He sounds like something big came up for him and he has behaved unprofessionally. So glad you have New T - I am hoping our new T's can truly help us through this.
Thanks for the comments Sheychen. Maybe you shouldn't read if it upsets you further. Glad to hear that steadyT is working out for you so far. We have to hold to the belief that our new Ts can get us through this otherwise what do we do?

Yes I know that Ts can have breakdowns, depression, marriage breakups or any number of other ills going on in their lives... but they are supposed to get help, supervision or whatever they need to keep it out of the room with the patient. They "should" put the patient first not last.

TN
TN,

I am really pleased to hear how things are going with newT. I am glad that he is allowing the trust to develop naturally rather than demanding it. I think that is so important for a trauma T to have that patience and ability to not take the lack of trust personally.

I do agree (still) that your T has something huge going on with him, but you and your new T are right in that he still should have known better and sought out supervision or some sort of guidance. The way he handled and continues to handle the situation is horrible.

I know that it still hurts terribly, but you are making it. You are putting one foot in front of the other and one of these days you will find that all of those steps have take you to a new place.

(((TN))))
Thanks STRM... newT is a really good T and I do know this. I just don't have those same feelings that I had with my other T. That special connection is so hard to be cut off from in this way. I just miss him a lot and it sort of makes me feel guilty that I miss him when he's been so horrid to me. But there were so many times he was sooo good to me and that is what I miss. He was so good, kind and gentle and caring for both me and my son that I have to believe something in him just snapped and now he is so fearful and lost he is acting irrational.

NewT is very smart and even funny at times and it would be really hard to scare him away... he has seen so much in his career. He is also supervisor to interns and does supervision for other professionals in private practice. I think I respond to him when he acts all protective of me. He has actually used touch twice with me (aside from his usual handshakes). He has patted my shoulder twice when I was leaving. That was pretty surprising but it felt sort of connecting. Like maybe he's not so detached from all of this. IDK... maybe he is the right T for me now if I can't have my old T. I really don't think I could find someone better than him.

Yes... one foot in front of the other. I try not to look too far ahead... when I do I see the holidays and that sends me back into my black hole....

TN
Hi TN,

You did have it so good for so long with old T so I don't think it's wierd that you still long for him even though he was horrid in the end. You are right, that's what you are missing. That ending really was traumatic.

I hear you about the holidays. They are so hard. What do you celebrate, if you don't mind me asking. How old is your son?
Liese, we celebrate Christmas and my son is ten and still hanging onto Santa Claus. We usually decorate a lot and lately celebrate with my sister's family (my parents are dead). Last Christmas my T took 10 days vacation and it was brutal for me and he didn't tell me until a few days before he left and would not tell me when he was coming home... only when I could next see him. I did email him twice while he was gone... he said I could. I was in a wonderful frame of mind during mid November up until he told me he was going away. That sort of threw me off balance for a bit. So being in that wonderful place pre-Christmas I threw myself into cooking and decorating and gifting and had so much fun going to parties and knowing that whatever little thing that was worrying me I could see my T and talk it through with him. He was there for me. I laugh at myself now that I made such a huge deal out of his going away for 10 days.... ten measlely days when I have not talked to him in TEN WEEKS now. OMG... that is so awful just writing that down. It just rips at my heart.

What is worse than Christmas for me is New Year's Eve. I hate it with a passion. Last year I sort of hinted about my struggle with this and kinda asked T to email me on the Eve to help me deal better and he would not do it. I felt like he with held that out of some kind of anger at me. Or like he was teaching me a tough lesson of some kind. The year before that he emailed me ... totally out of the blue on New Year's Eve and wished me such beautiful things for the coming new year... it really touched me.

So this year things will be really hard for me.

TN
Liese I have not seen NewT since Monday... he had no cancellations. It's hard when I'm being triggered and having flashback about the ending with oldT and I can't see him. I did email him on Wednesday and didn't hear back until this morning and it was a very unsatisfactory response. Basically, he told me nothing except to feel free to keep emailing because it's good for him to know how I'm doing. Gee... what about me? I needed some reassurance and encouragement to make it until Monday. The man is so stingey with the warm fuzzies. No empathy via email at all. Very different from oldT... who more often than not was warm and caring in his emails (well there were a few that got me pissed off!). Maybe newT just does not know me well enough yet to understand what I am looking for and I'm thinking that I should tell him when I see him Monday.

Monday is would have been three years that I met oldT. And this year it also falls on a Monday which was my standing appointment with him and I would have been there to share the memories of the day. This year I will be sitting in a new T's office crying over him and wondering (for the millionth time) what went so wrong that I lost the most important person in my life. Someone who swore they would not abandon me... yet somehow I managed to screw that up and drive him away from me.

Next week is going to be really hard and I'm so scared that I'm not going to make it.

TN
HI TN<

I don't know how but I missed your post on November 30th. I'm sorry.

My son is turning 10 this month and is also hanging onto the Santa thing. Funny, huh? I was 8 when i figured it all out and I'm sure a lot of kids at school have figured it out. It's amazing that they hang on but it makes it more fun, huh?

Oh geez, that was a terrible New Years Eve story. I can't believe he emailed you the year before spontaneously but then wouldn't this past year. He sounds a bit inconsistent, would you say? I don't want to bash him because I know there were a lot of good things. I just didn't like the sound of that. Like he was holding out on you for some reason that was never clear to you. He never explained???

My T doesn't email at all. At least not that I'm aware of. But even if he did, I just couldn't even imagine him emailing me on New Years Eve. So again, I see a red flag there that yours did email you the year before. Maybe I'm reading too much into that since I can't imagine mine doing that. But it does appear as though he blurred the lines for you between being a therapist and being a friend. And that has made it even harder for you at the end of the day because in reality, he could never have really been a friend, a real true friend, outside of the office-type.

In contrast, my T never does ANYTHING unless I ask for it. And, even then, I have to be really direct, can't beat around the bush because he's not going there either. It can make it very hard for me. But I guess it's important for me to learn how to be direct.

The holidays are sooooo hard, aren't they? It's just not all that hallmark wants us to believe, right?

so this Monday coming would have been the 3 year anniversary with oldT? That'll be a tough day for sure, although I am glad for you that you will have the support of new T on that day. I'll be thinking of you. Please let me know on Monday how you are doing. It's hard when they just don't have the cancellations in their schedule, right? My T is busy like yours, so it's kind of the same deal. And, when you need support, you need support.
Have a few minutes to update on yesterday's session with newT. It went pretty well. He complimented me on my necklace which was surprising ... sort of makes me feel "seen" if that makes sense. It was nice of him. I noticed that he was wearing a very nice cashmere sweater (it was freezing cold here yesterday) but I didn't say anything LOL.

We spoke of a few things that stand out. One was that he told me he sees a rod of steel in me, that I am strong but also very kind. The steel is encased in nice soft leather LOL. He said I would have to be very strong to survive in fairly good health what my T did to me at termination.

He told me that my perceptions about things are very accurate but I am not listening to them or paying enough attention to them. I need to stop doubting myself.

I think he's still puzzled a bit at why my T terminated me. I mean in the sense that he keeps remarking that I'm a very good patient and the things I do is what every other T would dream of having in a client. I'm the kind of client that they want (I'm having a hard time with this...because being who I was got me thrown out). NewT keeps telling me that it was oldT's problem not mine. My response... who cares, I'm still banished and I miss him!!

We talked about dependency and newT says he is fine with that and even argues with other colleagues that it is necessary with certain dx's for the patient to be able to depend. That is why he offers outside contact. He said other colleagues don't allow this and what happens in that their patients end up acting out and the other Ts end up with more problems than my newT does in allowing contact. In fact, this was one if the BIG reasons I left the other Ts and stayed with him. My oldT allowed me to have outside contact, although I'm not sure he understood totally the benefits of it for the patient...and so I needed to have this in a new T or I felt it would not work for me.

We talked a bit about how it was the 3 year anniversary of my meeting oldT and how we celebrated it last year along with Chanukah.

When I questioned him about why he took me on as a patient... which is something that troubles me because I can't get away from feeling like I'm a double burden with my therapy failure past and my other traumas... he said why do you think? I told him because I think he has a soft spot for people who have been hurt by therapy. He said yes and because I have real anger at Ts who are incompetent and irresponsible... and besides I just like you. That made me smile and also worry. OldT liked me too before he really knew who I was. I'm afraid newT only likes me because he does not know all the bad parts of me yet.

Then we talked about his email response to me which upset me a little. I wanted him to know that when I email him I'm looking for reassurance and encouragement. He said he would keep that in mind and thanked me for my feedback as it is important. He said I brought up the subject in a very nice/kind manner.

He made me an appt for Friday and for next Tuesday.

I do like him a lot and feel as comfortable as I am able at this point in therapy. I noticed that we are now discussing not only my relationship with oldT but also exploring this new relationship between us. I'm starting to share a bit more of me and he is responding in a good way. I smile because I know that he knows that I'm watching him like a hawk for any wrong move. He's okay with that.

He works hard and seems to be a good person but that scares me because I thought the same thing of old T. That he was so ethical and kind that he would never hurt me and he almost destroyed me. So I'm a bit skittish about really trusting anyone right now.

Oh... newT mentioned, with a smile, that he sees that when I leave him I'm much calmer. That he is able to soothe my nervous system. I thought it was interesting that he observed this. We talked about emotional dysregulation and I threw out some clinical analysis of what happens and he was sort of taken aback and then laughed at me saying... he's not so used to having patients talk to him like that. I admit I totally enjoyed the moment. He was not put off at all.

So that's about it. He did give me a lot to process and think about. He told me the best way to "get" to oldT is to get well and be happy. I just wish I could talk to oldT ... I hate things just hanging like this. I just cannot accept living the rest of my life like this feeling that this person who I care about so much hates me enough to banish me from existence. It's a hard road to walk.

Thanks for listening
TN
Hi TN,

All in all, that sounded like a wonderful session. I'm so impressed by your ability to be forthright with him, both about your feelings for OldT and for him. I'm starting to think it's who you are. That it's pretty easy for you to be upfront with people about how you feel? You also know a lot about the therapy process. So that has to be helpful and give you confidence. But, all in all, I think I like him alot!!!

Know you are still suffering about old T. Hate the banished feeling. Hate it. His question was really interesting about why again were you terminated???? You are like the dream patient. Nice to hear from an outside source. Maybe Old T wasn't setting some kind of boundary with you that he should have been setting??? Did we talk about this already?
this session is really really good.
I have had to change my name AGAIN, as you would not believe it but I am being internet stalked. I can only say in veiled terms that I am the person who was terminated by her C.
My new T does not allow ANY contact between sessions unless it is about appointment times - I left her something to read yesterday and felt sick about it today and so texted "was it okay that you read that? I feel quite sick" and she just texted back "I do not do process by text, we can talk about it next week"

but your new T sounds just so on the ball. I am so glad for you and he is really clear that you are strong and you are coping in an horrendous situation . I was terminated too but not in such a heartless way as you and I am bleeding all over the place. So you are strong. ANYone would find it hard to be terminated and terminated like you were would have us all on our knees. He is right.
TN,

That sounds like a wonderful session. I have really enjoyed reading about your journey with this new T and how you've let yourself gradually dip your toe back in the water even after you were so horribly wronged by OldT. I've seen you gradually inch yourself closer and it has been such a good thing to read. I don't blame you are all for being hesitant to trust and actually I think it is a good thing.

I'm sorry that you don't have any avenue to get closer with OldT at this point. I think the not knowing sounds like the worst part for you right now, but maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like it would be so hard not to know why.
Hi TN,

It really did sound like a good session, thank you for sharing, it really gives me hope for my own situation. Really happy that you are opening up and feeling more comfortable with him.

Fwiw TN I don't think old T hates you...I think he just can't handle his own stuff at the minute...I know that doesn't make it feel any better but you are doing an amazing job of building up your strength with new T and maybe if the time comes when Old T is able to make contact you will be more than ready for him.

Butterfly
Hi Liese, well part of the reason why I am able to be forthright and ask for what I need is because of all the work I did with oldT. We both worked hard on this and it is showing now. I know a lot about therapy because I read tons of stuff about it and ask lots of questions. I have an inate curiosity about psychology and newT tells me I am psychologically minded. NewT says I did not violate any boundaries nor act out in any way that would cause termination. He is convinced that my oldT was scared because I knew more than he did and he felt inadequate and add that to the fact that he was very emotionally vested in me and could have become enmeshed. He was unable to keep the consistency which is vitally important. He kept moving the boundaries around on me and sometimes he would move close to me and then the next time he would seem detached and closed. It was confusing to me.

Sadly, I knew who you were. I'm sorry your new T does not understand the importance of outside contact for you. I didn't think from your text that you were wanting to "process" anything you just wanted to know if she was okay with reading what you gave her. I don't really think of myself as strong. I've been a total wreck since July. I still cry a lot, experience panic and anxiety, hopelessness and grief. I am frustrated by not being able to speak with oldT and part of me is still in disbelief that this really happened to me and that he did this to me. Not really understanding what happened is so crazy making. I told newT we can speculte all we want to but I won't really know until oldT tells me what happened and I'm not sure he ever will.

STRM, thank you for following my journey to and with newT and for your observations about it. I guess I am slowly trying to test the water to see if it's safe to venture closer to him. It's not the same as with oldT... the feelings are much less intense and feel different. I enjoy talking to him but the connection and the attachment is not there. Maybe it's just not possible for me to ever allow that again. Too risky and painful.

Butterfly... so glad I give you hope for your situation. I just read that your oldT offered you another session. Personally, I would give anything for another session with oldT... even if it's not enough it's more than I have now and I could try to find closure. I never had that chance. Even when I saw him with D (the woman T I saw for awhile) he would not answer my questions nor really speak to me about anything much. I have very little memory of those 2 hours. He didn't speak to D either really and calling that a transition meeting was a total farce.

Thank you for telling me that you don't think he hates me. I keep thinking that one of us will die and the chance to find some peace in all of this will be lost forever. He wouldn't even allow me to say goodbye to him in that last session because he told me he would see me again sometime "when the time was right" and I was afraid to push anything and jeopardize that chance to see him again. So instead I was left with being denied the chance to make a final peaceful good bye to someone that I truly loved and who was so important to me.

I hope your session goes well and you find some peace in seeing T again.

TN
Butterfly... oh no you did NOTHING insensitive at all and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. I am happy for you and I hope things go well in the session. And yes I know you would use your magic wand to help me because that is the kind of person you are... a very good and caring person. I am still somewhat hopeful that I may one day find some peace with all of this. Thanks so much for your support.

Hug
TN

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