I think you should go to therapy and talk to your T about this pressure from H to quit therapy with him. He might be able to come up with some ideas on how to address this with H.

I think you should talk it out with T as well. Even if he can't tell you what to do, he may be able to give you the space to safely work through what YOU want to do. I have been pretty non-functional for my H lately, too.

I would love to be able to talk it out with T- unfortunately I can't.

Maybe you could just call/email and say something like, "H is not interested in doing another joint session, because of the 'dysfunctional' state I'm in from losing my individual therapy. He wants to find another marriage counselor and let me continue individually with you. I have been resisting his suggestion, but I'm not sure if my motivations are only because I think seeing you for marriage counseling would be best for me and H or if my transference/attachment is becoming so overwhelming that I'm 'sacrificing' my individual sessions as a way to detach and regain control. Since H doesn't want to attend this next session, would it be OK if we met and tried to answer this question before I make a decision on how to proceed?"

STRMS is right, that is excellent Yaku- that's exactly the question, that I couldn't figure out how to word right now- ! But the honesty of an email like that would require me to feel a certain amount of connection and trust with him rather than this detachment that I've brought upon myself. When I felt connected and trusting, I emailed him a lot more "shocking" than that. I keep wondering if something happened between my T and me that I suppressed, that I just don't feel like I trust him now, maybe- or something like that- maybe?

I know for a fact my T would respond to an email like that. He always responds to my emails. But I don't wanna. I don't know why, I really don't know why- but I don't wanna. I'm digging my heels in and refusing to need my T anymore since starting this marital therapy huh..? that is so weird. I can't figure it out..another part of me just doesn't care, even though it is vastly, world-shakingly important.

I don't think I could ever admit to my T that I am in a dysfunctional state due to losing individual sessions. that's the part that scares the hell out of me.

Wow, thanks STRMS..maybe that *is* part of it. Although I have to say that I'm suffering a lot more of guilt because my T feels like he is on "my side" which doesn't feel fair to my H. T is kind of speaking for me. I found myself unable to speak, no matter what, even when my H was misrepresenting things (not on purpose, just the way he seemed to truly see things) I just feel like my T is somebody else to me, now. It feels like he's not my T anymore. I don't feel like I am allowed to speak, even though I know that isn't the truth. But I can't think of *speaking* to him anymore. I've lost the belief that it is ok within this new dynamic for me to still need him or to have any therapeutic relationship with him that doesn't now include my H. Weird. It's just *gone.* And I long for my T, though. It's not like I don't have feelings about my T anymore. Attachment feelings if anything, are worse than ever. But I can't even think that I have a relationship with him, where I would be allowed to email him about my stuff anymore. Now he is *our marriage counselor.* Period. I miss him. I miss what was. I miss that safe place for me to be with someone I thought cared- and to have learned how to speak to him, and then quickly lost that feels so hard. There is like this wall there now, that I feel like I am not allowed to try to breach. Not allowed- that's the word. Verboten! I guess I've lost all my trust for him in some odd way, even though he is totally in my corner. Weird. I think my T would think I am evil for needing him instead of turning towards my H now that my H is in the counseling picture. But I am not turning to my H, either. I'm just kind of cut off or something, not sure how to plug into life again. I just feel cut off and disconnected from him, and like the past two years have been a dream and now reality hits, and there *is* not a caring other- he's just a T, and no matter how much I need him, I can't have his help.

ps, thank you for hugs- means a lot.

I understand. It can be so hard to be vulnerable about the fact that being vulnerable is hurtful/scary. That said, the scariest exchanges I've had with T have been my most rewarding so far. I'm gearing up to admit the depth of my pain with this transference stuff with T. I want to tell him:

-I've been having nightmares about T abandoning therapy with me.
-I had to download an app to manage my text messaging, so I could change his chime to a different one than the default, because my anxiety was going through the roof everytime I received a text and I was getting depressed when expecting a text from him and it ended up being someone else.
-Should I have him refer me to another T who I might not have such strong transference with or get so easily attached to?
-Is there anything I can/should do to manage my panic over these feelings toward him?

I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it or not. Also, I'm afraid every session is turning into how freaked out therapy is making me rather than actually discussing the stuff behind those feelings.

Thanks so much for the advice, STRMS- this is no way way T's fault. I have a certain amount of money to spend on counseling and this is how I've chosen to spend it. It's really a money issue, and he kind of has to do what I decide, right? I guess I wish he would give me the same advice you did- than I would be able to listen, instead of feeling guilty. I'm certain my T would lost respect for me, and not think it was good if I stopped marriage counseling with him at this point. We went back and forth on it a million times, and I *finally* made a decision. Now I just want to stick with the plan- even if it kills me. I hate indecision more than I hate dying inside, I guess.

Please- don't apologize, STRMS- your responses are getting me at least to think. Maybe I just need to give it time. I told my H we should give it 3 sessions and then reevaluate. My H won't go to counseling unless I'm there. I want him to learn a few things from my T, I guess. I'm just so confused about why it's making me so crazy!

oops, sorry I'm not ignoring you Yaku-

if I texted my T I would do the same thing. Text would be good because it *has* to be short. I wrote waaaay too long emails to him.

I think you should at least be honest with him about how you're feeling about it. If you're holding back, it will probably have an effect on your marriage counseling as well. Even if you can't say any of this in front of H yet, T should at least be aware of how you're feeling...and all these thoughts you are projecting onto him, which might not have anything to do with what he actually thinks/feels. Identifying my projections to T has been super-effective in moving us forward. But if you're faking detachment and start to resent both T and H, it will be detrimental to the whole process of working on your marriage and working with your T.

Cross-posted: I usually try to get my texts into 1-2 messages, but occasionally, they will blow up into 5 pages! I never started doing this until T started sending me very long ones. The longest he has sent is 10 in a row, when I was exploring wanting to quit, because of how much counseling was hurting me. I send extremely long emails, but that is because he says he likes reading my journal, so I just send whatever I wrote to myself and he can decide whether or not to pursue.

I don't know. I'm sure your write but when will I have chance to say all of these honest things to him again? I could email it all to him, I guess but I just can't believe that he cares or that it matters anymore. Marriage counseling is basically a last-ditch effort at this point. Maybe T will be able to do something to help- if not, I'm probably going to take my kidlets and hit the road, in which case I wouldn't be having the support of my T -or my H- anymore anyway. I can't continue like this much longer. I don't think my H is interested in financially supporting a woman who won't have relations with him.

quote:

Do you think the marriage counseling is going to be effective if you are in this state? It sounds like if you can only do one that you would be better off to select someone new for the marriage counseling and then return for individual with your T once you can afford to. I'm sorry, I not trying to tell you what to do, just trying to find a less painful way for you to do this.

Beebs, I totally agree with STRM above.

I truly believe that your marital counseling will not work if you are in such a state that you cannot deal with what comes up. I also think that since your dh does not feel any particular attachment or trust in your T then do go outside to find a T who does this counseling in person and perhaps for less money. You seem for some reason to believe that only your T can save your marriage. How do you know this? How can you proceed when you are in such a terrible state? Seeing you like this is breaking my heart because there are other options.

If money is an issue then alternate weeks with marital and individual counseling. You stay with YOUR T who you have a long term relationship with and find someone new for marital counseling.

Another thing... are you trying to find reasons to detach or run from your T?

Very much as STRM describes above... I had a parenting session with my dh and my oldT. It was only parenting and NOT marital and I totally freaked out because my T was not paying attention to me and I felt that they were ganging up on me and that my safe T was no longer safe. I was furious and terrified at the same time. It led to the only time I acted out ... by slamming his door... and then I believe the beginning of the end of our relationship followed very close behind. It was a total disaster. What I learned was NEVER to mix my own individual therapy with any other kind of therapy ever again.

Beebs, I hope you find some peace in all of this. I think you need to email your T and explain that dh would prefer an outside in person T and that you will be going back to your own therapy with him. You need to take care of you before you can participate in improving your marriage.

This is just my honest, raw, opinion.

Many hugs
TN

***Triggers, questioning therapy relationship, termination-type ideas***

Thanks you for all of the input...I really appreciate all the thought and care you guys put into what you've said. I will think about it all, especially the idea from STRMS that marriage counseling may not even be effective if I can't deal with my intense feelings about my T. At this point it is mostly my T talking to my H and trying to get him to see things in a different light and it needs to happen, for the sake of love. ******Please understand that what I'm going to say in this post applies only to me, and my specific situation, and not to anyone else necessarily or their situation.******* I have my own set of trauma and experiences and way of thinking that I have to deal with- everyone else has theirs, and I don't want to come across that what is true for me here is true for everyone else, too. Not the case- at least not neccesarily. Somebody may relate, and some may not. I just need to talk, since there is no one I can talk to, except you guys right now. I'm desperate for someone caring and who understands matters like these, to process all this stuff with. I simply cannot afford to book sessions with my T, and even if I was rolling in dough, I would't feel able to open up to him about all of this at present as it is too deep and the pain is too raw to face with him, for pay- who is the object of my pain, so to speak.

TN you make such a valid point about, that my T isn't the only one who could help us. It may be more of my perfectionistic-type thinking, but it is very hard for me to see that or believe it- at this point I can say honestly that I *feel* very much that my T is the only one who would be able to help us effectively. He knows more about us as individual because of working with me for nearly two years now- and he's just really, really wise. I can't trust my thoughts anymore as they get too confused and so I'm going with my equally damaged gut on this one. I'm maybe using marriage counseling to detach, instead of taking a break, as has often come up as an option for me in my counseling with Dr. -. I find it extremely painful to view the counseling from this outsiders perspective, it gives me a lot of insight into the fact that I am not, nor will I ever be special or important to my T in the sense that I wish I could be. As AG also has discovered I find myself discovering, that the therapy relationship is all that I will ever have with him- and the therapy relationship I have with my T is not enough all by itself to heal me. At this point I've been living in a fantasy world where I am a special and important person to my T, and he will be able to love me out of my misery. Doing the marriage counseling is making it painfully obvious that I am just a client, no different than any other, and maybe that is just something I have to go through and endure, that I will always love my T more than he will ever be able to love me, even though, paradoxically, it's him that is doing all the caring, I suppose. And because we are not a part of eachother's lives, it makes the split all the more obvious and painful. That's probably a hard statement to understand- what I mean by that. sigh.

I do think that the reason my H wants (wanted?) a different T is because he senses deeply, danger- he knows that another T will not challenge him to love so deeply, or give so much right from the very core of his masculinity- as much as my T does.

We are hard-wired to avoid pain, and I realize that doing this, in this way, is choosing the most painful option. I really can't know if I am doing the right thing. But I do believe that it is the best option at this point in time. If there was a T nearby who had the same mentality as my T does on certain issues, I would be going there for marriage counseling, believe me- and keeping my T for my individual sessions which I really do need. In fact it was what my T originally recommended- yet we were not able to find a T who does the work that my T does, in the way that he does it. I can continue, live in my own particular fantasy world where although my T will never be able to meet my needs, I keep wishing and having these short little periods of time where he can, and then I'm left gasping for breath until the next time I see him- *or* I can submit myself to my T in trust, in spite of the agony it's causing- and allow him to do what he can in terms of helping to heal my entire family- whom I have to live the rest of my life with. I want him to be the one to do this work- with *his* unique perspectives *his* gifts, and *his very individual way of seeing things, interpreting things, and relating-* that being said- I still hope to be able to have individual sessions with my T again at some point in time.

But that doesn't mean that as I'm choosing this, I won't be sort of trembling in fear and faltering, going back, going forward, and not being sure of my decision. It hurts like hell, and all the more because I am not ready for it or sure of it, or sure of my own motives. I'm just trusting my Therapist- (as best I can- that he knows what he is doing and what will help me the most- it's not neccess
arily trust anymore that he thinks I'm a good person or that I can be entirely open with him about who I am- it's more a trust that he has my best interests at heart, and has a better knowledge of what will help me than I do) It's all I know how to do right now, and it isn't easy. I'm very lonely for him, and I'll admit that I'm grieving for something that I really do need.

Thanks you so much for the hugs, and the advice, and the care. I'm sorry- this is probably not a very easy read.

BBxxx

I'm glad you were able to work through your thoughts and feel like this is a safe space to do it. I'll be praying that you continue to see the next step to take as you proceed. (((((BB)))))

aw, thanks Yaku..

hugs,

BB

Beebs, I really love this last post of yours. I know you are in heaps of pain and I certainly don't love that, but I also see you doing something really important here - owning your choice. As bad as everything feels right now, I believe this is an excellent foundation for growth - like a lovely rich seedbed - one that probably just looks like a pile of dirt and manure right now. It's not about the particular choice you made, but the fact of owning it.

love,
Jones

quote:

I do think that the reason my H wants (wanted?) a different T is because he senses deeply, danger- he knows that another T will not challenge him to love so deeply, or give so much right from the very core of his masculinity- as much as my T does.

I am glad that you are aware of your H's motives for wanting a different T. How do you feel about H not wanting to really work as hard as current T makes him work?

Thanks Jones, that is really encouraging. I'm doubting your words, of course, since they are so positive, but I'm also taking them in. I do fear that I am isolating and that is certainly one of my motives- to disappear, or at least, cease to exist to my T because it's safer than how angry I feel at my T for abandoning me in pain and not loving me. It's all about the money. I just can't afford him, and he doesn't give a shit. In fact, he's piling it all onto me just when I need him the most, won't even take my checks anymore, and is even making me now absorb the costs of his own dumb-ass bank fees. Jerk-face! Rich, suckingly-parasitic- when-it-comes-to-money jerk-face user! A little bit of transference leaking out there, yeah, probably!

LG- thanks for asking. You are a talented asker of questions, you know that? In answer to your excellent question, see the above comment which is directed at T, instead of where it belongs.