(((TAS)))

Why would you quit? Aren't you going to see him tomorrow?

Liese and Red Tomato, thank you. He did tell me he would let me know . It is rue that I did not hear from him, that is not why I quit, though. I am having difficulty not contacting him between sessions.. The pain I feel over this is overwhelming. He believes no contact is the best thing, and I am really struggling with that. I can't seem to get over it. I just can't keep breaking his rules. I do believe he is doing what he feels I need, but it is just too much to deal with. I did call and leave a message. I explained it had nothing to do with him.- I hoped he could understand. I am really in a Catch 22. I am
trying to trust him and what he is asking me to do. It is too hard. I understand the issue lies with me.
I don't know what to do. I don't want to start over with someone else. I just feel like he doesn't understand how difficult it is for me.

T.

TAS, my question is, do you talk to him about how difficult it is for you? About how you really don't want to break his rules and you realize he has good intentions....but it is really really hard for you? Does he know how much you're struggling and hurting or are you not letting him know? I'm not sure what would be best for you, obviously, but I'm just wondering if you're able to communicate all of this with him.

Erica...He does know it is difficult for me, but won't change his position. I don't see the need to tell him how I feel...it won't make him change his mind. I just want the pain to go away. The only way for that to happen is for me to stop seeing him.

Thank you for your kind words.
T.

Red Tomato, you are very sweet. Thank you.

Thank you Catalyst. I appreciate your reply. He definitely doesn't seem to be changing his position. The only way for this pain to subside is for me to go. He doesn't have to go through the pain. I just hate it all right now.

T.

((((TAS))))

I'm just wondering how you feel when you are with him? Early in my therapy, the only time I felt good about myself was when I was with my T. I couldn't hang onto those feelings outside of his office. You can only imagine, then, how painful it was for me not to be with him. Wondering if that happens to you as well?

Just a thought.

Tas

you never answer the question.

Have you TALKED to him about all this, about the between session contact and how it makes you feel.

You keep saying he *knows* how it makes you feel. but you have also previously said that you expect people to know how you feel.

Tas - if you aren't saying the actual words to him and having lengthy conversations with him about a) your relationship b) between session contact c) your growing attachment and d) what YOU NEED from him - then you aren't being fair.

You are expecting too much of him to just know this.

Issues in therapy mimic real life struggles. You are expecting him to know what you want and need, but not prepared to talk about it, ask for what you need etc - this is what you probably struggle with in real life.

You have to TALK with him.

Somedays

yeah, all the posts above. there's alot of really good advice there. i'm learning right along beside you, TAS. i hope you reconsider because, like so many have said, i've sensed a change in the way you feel about your T within the last month or so, and i think it's for the better. you're worth the fight. take care ((((TAS))))

((TAS))
It sucks that you're having problems w/T, but I do agree w/the others to hold out before that final break. Do you have another T lined up? If you play the game of "I'm taking my ball & leaving the playground" attitude you're only hurting yourself. That's the last thing you need to deal w/. Be good to yourself right now.
When things got really bad for me a few wks ago I was calling the crisis hotline & the women's resource center hotline & the WARM LINE. Some of these I was calling 2-3 times a day. Do you have a warm line in your area? It might be very helpful when you really need to talk to someone. Ours has set hrs & its run by volunteers that have/had mental issues & disorders. Its not a "hot"line, no emergencies, but they're there if you need someone to talk to. The first time I called I know I got some young college kid (I live in a college town) & she talked a lot about her T & even though it wasn't an "all enlightening" conversation, she had me engaged in a conversation for 20 min which helped get me thru a rough spot in the day. The times I've called I've gotten very different people, but it still had me engaged which is what I needed. Maybe something like that might be helpful for you? Just a suggestion.
Keep your chin up & I'll be thinking of you
Mudd

((TAS))
sometimes it is just unbearable and you have to do what you have to do, there is, or it truly feels like there simply is no other way.
i understand that, it really is about self preservation... when you feel like there is nothing left in you.... i was feeling like that last night and i had decided that i would quit (i'm on a long break now as my T is sick/ recovering from surgery, i called and emailed and i haven't even heard back to see if she's ok / still here).... so this is simply excruciating and i just can't do it anymore.

sorry if i made this about me... but i wanted to say i understand.... sometimes you do what you need to do...
but hopefully this is a temporary feeling that can be changed (and it seems in the past he's taken you back)

hope you feel more hopeful soon

p.s. redtomato - i just wanted to say your story broke my heart!... i thought that was rather cold of your T...

puppet

quote:

Originally posted by SomeDays:


Tas - if you aren't saying the actual words to him and having lengthy conversations with him about a) your relationship b) between session contact c) your growing attachment and d) what YOU NEED from him - then you aren't being fair.


Somedays

Thanks Somedays for saying so nicely what I didn't in my post.

TAS, I agree with Somedays. I asked if you had talked with your T about how excruciating this is not to bait him or make him change his policy. That is not a good dynamic to be in. That will only contribute to your feelings of powerlessness and helplessness within the relationship. I asked because I think that this should be your therapy. This meaning how much pain you've been in, how it hurts so badly, how you want so badly to follow his boundaries but it's SO HARD. I think your therapy should be about this. For as long as it takes.

I don't know. I have mixed feelings about your T. I honestly think it would be more helpful for you to have a T who welcomes outside contact and understands attachment injuries and the looser boundaries needed to mend them. But I don't know you or your situation, and I know you've said you could not think about starting over with another T. So, if you have any small, tiny part of you that wants to continue with your T, I would suggest what Somedays is saying. Unless you're already going in week after week and telling your T how hard it is for you...then just disregard everything I've said!

Good luck in whatever you choose. You deserve some peace and it just sounds excruciating for you.

I actually feel really positive about Tas's T. I think he will allow contact, but I think he is waiting for Tas to talk about it and commit to the relationship, the therapy and to stop fighting him on it. I know it is hard to stop as everything is so terrifying, but I have a good feeling about him that he will allow contact. But Tas has to talk to him about it and negotiate.

SD

quote:

Originally posted by SomeDays:
I actually feel really positive about Tas's T. I think he will allow contact, but I think he is waiting for Tas to talk about it and commit to the relationship, the therapy and to stop fighting him on it.

This is the same impression I got, although I could be making a wrong assumption based on my own experiences. My T withdrew sitting together because he felt it was increasing distress and it was getting harder to leave contained. For at least a month straight, all I did in therapy was write about (and when I wasn't mute with terror, talk about) how I experienced his actions, the pain and fear it brought up, the desire to run (not any threats, but very raw, desperate, survival feelings). After that first month, it wasn't the central focus, as those crises led to my diagnosis, and we talked about that at length...but it was still discussed semi-regularly until nearly four months later when I wrote down a list of questions to discuss and I had him rehash the whole thing from his perspective. In the end, we came to be sitting together again and that's just how we work now.

For that reason, I've continued to advocate showing up regularly, committing to the process, and just being very raw about those needs and how T's withdrawal is experienced. I think there may eventually be a negotiation, but I could be wrong. It requires explaining how this policy impacts your ability to feel safe, to relate to your T, and the reality that a negative transference is being replaced by an overwhelming self-loathing and sense of worthlessness. But, maybe in being forced to confront those feelings, it becomes more possible to consider that the thoughts you think are his come from inside. It is huge, hard work.

May I ask what good does it do to discuss something with someone if they are not going to change their mind? If someone knows something is difficult for you already, then if you say it is difficult...but it doesn't bring about change, then why discuss it?

I can't remember who said I didn't answer the question...I don't feel like I should discuss something with someone when the Therapist knows how difficult this is for me and yet won't change his mind.

Would you lay out your thoughts and feelings, knowing that things won't change? I see it as me just throwing myself out there, only to be rebuffed with a rule. NO CONTACT IN BETWEEN SESSIONS.

His rule is saying to me that he doesn't care how it makes me feel. He sees it as what is needed. I am trying to trust him in this, but it is becoming increasingly difficult because he knows how much anguish this causes...not only between He and I...I won't even begin to discuss the things that it touches upon from my childhood...things that are interwoven together...you know, kind of like dominoes, you touch one and it falls over...eventually all get touched...

I don't mean to sound negative but I don't say how I feel about something if the other person knows it but is unwilling to change their view point. For whatever reason, he won't. He is the Therapist and he ultimately gets to make that decision. The only choice I have as a client is to leave if I don't like the rule. I don't like the rule.

Thank you to each of you who have offered your kind words...I really appreciate E A C H of you.

T.

Aren't feelings FOR something? Shouldn't they cause or bring about change? Maybe it is me just thinking in black and white terms, but why even have feelings if they don't change anything? Aren't feelings an indicator that something is unpleasant and needs to change?

Thank you Irish Girl T.

IrishGirl is right...feelings have no goals. They just are. They are not (in this case) intended to bring about change. They are meant to be felt, to be witnessed, to be attended to by a caring other. That is healing. But it take time and it takes persistence.

I want more than anything for someone to hold and hug my 6 year old self while I cry. I feel so much pain, sadness, hurt, shame, anger. I want that to go away. I want to be held. But that is not going to happen. I am an adult now. My feelings are not just going to go away. They may get buried, but they will come back and cloud me, drown me even. But I'm working on that in therapy. I talk about my feelings...as unpleasant and shameful as they are. I talk about my neediness and my wish to be held (this is NOT easy and I feel extreme shame when I talk about this). I don't do this in an attempt to change my T (although, part of me wants her to hold me when I cry!!!). I do this so that I can heal. Talking about my feelings and having them attended to (unlike when I was a child) is the healing.

I don't know if this is remotely helpful. I just think you are so close to having some comfort. Your T does sound very consistent. And I do think talking about your feelings will help, even though they won't change your T. I hear you and your frustrations. But maybe there is another way, since the way you're trying is not working for you. The other option of course is to quit. You do have that option...but maybe persisting on is the best choice for you.

quote:

Would you lay out your thoughts and feelings, knowing that things won't change?

Yes, that is exactly what I did. When my T stopped sitting with me, moved from sitting side-by-side on the ground to back far away, I experienced it as a permanent thing, and it lasted for several months. And I poured my heart out to him in the midst of it, knowing he was safe, told him that I knew it was because people in the past were unfair to me that I was being unfair to him now, but that I felt abandoned by him. I had absolutely no idea of it ever changing. I wanted to run away so bad. I was humiliated by my deep need to be close, that was experienced as the intrusion of a child. I was in terrible pain, feeling like he did not care how much that child was hurting.

Over time, and way before he changed his approach with me, just being listened to (sometimes not even responded to, but only listened to with acceptance and care) without having someone tell me once again that my feelings were wrong or too much or a burden or a lie or terrifying me with abuse or abandonment into dissociating them...it changed things. It was still terribly painful to experience the abandonment of him being further away again, feeling like I had been left "alone" once again in horrible pain. But, I began to see how much of that pain, or at least the intensity of it, resided in the past. And I (and other protective parts inside) began to notice how steady T was in hearing all my feelings and accepting them and being safe with them.

My feelings didn't change him right away, but allowing them into the light and seeing that he didn't recoil at seeing my need and pain and terror changed me, just a little bit at a time. Granted, I had a lot more "supportive" environment in terms of contact, so I'm not saying it was easy for me or will be easy for you. But, abusing yourself over your own feelings and projecting that abuse onto your T is only reliving messages you never deserved in the past and certainly don't deserve now.

As in every relationship, the boundaries shift over time, and when my T thought it would be helpful, rather than triggering (or at least more helpful than triggering) to be closer together, we began to work that way. It was something that was discussed, over and over again, that I journaled about and looked at all sides, that I talked about here, that I talked about with my T, despite being bowled over by fear and shame.

There really is no way out of those things but through them. So, it comes to the decision of whether it is more painful to live inside of a world where you let your fear and shame block you from taking in what relationships have to offer you or more painful to risk a world that is full of mistakes and bumps in the road to get to a place where you can stay close to safe people, through trials and triumphs, and allow yourself to receive their care. I spent most of my life dissociating and isolating myself to avoid that risk. The healing I have done in the past 2.5 years has allowed me to finally begin to know others and be known and feel a bit safer about it.

I used to live in a way, automatically (although it was a very old choice) that said being alone by choice was better than to be abandoned or abused. I never allowed myself to realize that the whole world isn't like that, even if some very important people in my life are. I don't have to be either alone or abandoned and abused. I can relate to others, connect and be close, and while incurring the relational bumps and bruises that everyone gets, take in all that relationships have to offer. It's more than worth the occasional sprained ankle or scraped knee to go out and have a good time with my friends in the playground.

I am really sorry that this attachment stuff is so hard. I wish I knew a way to heal it without having to take such huge risks, but I don't. Is healing worth it? Then try your best with your T. Is it not worth it? That's you're decision to make, really, but you're not giving up on him or Ts in general by being unwilling to share those feelings. You're giving up on you and your intrinsic human value, to be heard and cared about by others. And that makes me so sad.

Hey TAS,

I know I'm late on this thread, but this really caught my eye...

quote:

Aren't feelings FOR something? Shouldn't they cause or bring about change? Maybe it is me just thinking in black and white terms, but why even have feelings if they don't change anything? Aren't feelings an indicator that something is unpleasant and needs to change?

Have you ever heard the phrase "If it feels wrong (meaning uncomfortable), then it's probably right (meaning the right thing to do, feel, decision, ect. even though it feels wrong)"

I believe feelings can be a very good indicators. I believe your T knows this too. If he followed your lead and changed his rules or boundaries constantly to make you comfortable, then he wouldn't be a very good therapist. In my experience, when things start to feel too uncomfortable to take in the therapy room, that's the time you want to stick around, stick through it. Open up wide, raw, say everything to him, everything you are thinking, feeling, even if you think you have already told him. Tell him again.

I am wondering, if you found a new therapist. And let's say they were generally the same as your current therapist, but allowed contact between sessions. How do you think that would improve your therapy so that you could flourish with them?

(((kmay))) that's really good what you said. it certainly applies to my situation.

(((TAS))) i'm thinking about you alot lately. i know this is super difficult stuff. i just wanted to poke my head in here and let you know i'm thinking about you and following your threads. there's so much good in sight here. whatever you decide, i wish the best of luck for you (((TAS)))

(((CD)))