Liese, I just got on line after dinner and saw this and I'm terribly sorry you are so hurt and flipping out. I am really really concerned for you because what your T just told you today is exactly what my oldT told me and we know how that ended. I think you need to believe him... he is not that kind of T... you need a psychodynamic or psychoanalytic T to help you with the issues and trauma you have in your background.

He is asking YOU if it's hard??? OMG! My oldT would tell me reading the research I brought him was like reading a foreign language!! Well how come I could understand it and I don't even have a 4year college degree and HE has a PhD? This is psychology... aren't they psychologists? I kept asking myself these questions and I would keep bringing him things to read and he always always had an excuse as to why he didn't read them. He was NOT too busy because he was not getting stuff from other clients to read, he worked half days... so it had to be that he was just not smart enough to handle the material and digest and understand what needed to be done to help me.

And like you I threw out at him some really difficult trauma material... maybe before I was ready to actually verbalize it ... and I did it to try to prove to him that he could handle it. Well, now I'm left with the trauma hanging out there like an ax over my head while I'm trying to form a relationship and make a connection with a new T. It's a bad situation.

Liese, I think you need to hear what he is telling you. He cannot handle this. NOT because your issues are so bad or horrible or difficult but because of HIS limitations. He does not have the training and experience to help you. I think he's been BSing you to keep you in therapy and try to calm the waters and he avoids anything that tests him or challenges him. It's NOT you. My T has been hammering this into my head for the past 4 months about what happened with my oldT and how the therapy broke down.

What he also told me is this: I cannot be both patient and therapist. I cannot work both sides of the room. It's okay for a patient to help a T understand what they need but it's the Ts responsibility to run with the ball. They need to do what a T should do and not leave it all up to you to do therapy by yourself. It just does not work.

The other BIG red flag... he is glad to see you take control of therapy? The patient should not have all the control. Especially a patient with attachment issues. She needs to know that her therapist is the stronger, wiser, braver, solid other in the dyad. Not that she has to take control. If anything it's a collaboration and you work together. But the T needs to be consistent.

I think that the reason you are struggling SO hard to trust this guy is that he is jerking you around with regard to trust issues. He is inconsistent and that scares you and shakes the trust you are trying to build.

I can see all of this so much more clearly after working with my current T. I don't have to struggle to trust him because he always acts trustworthy. He does not move around. He is solid. He understands attachment. He does not back away from my feelings for him...he welcomes them with no fear at all.

I'm sorry that I'm not making you feel any better but I just wanted you to know that it's not you. You are doing nothing wrong at all. You are working really hard... too hard. You are doing the work for both of you (as many others told me about my therapy). I know, believe me I know how hard and painful and terrible it is to leave a T you are attached to. But I will tell you that it's probably better in the long run to find someone who really understands what you need and is not afraid to provide it to you.

I wish I could find a way to solve this for you. I just see a replay of what I went through with an incompetent T and I don't want your therapy to end as horribly and traumatic as mine did. I think it's good that you have consulted with other Ts and maybe T2 is not the one for you either. I would suggest that you keep looking. I saw 5 Ts before I found my T. It was SO worth the search.

Many hugs,
TN

TN,

I was actually thinking the same thing tonight. I've calmed down. It was it is. I'll just tell him that I hear him. He can't help me. I want something he can't give.

((((Liese)))) glad you are feeling a little more calm. I think what you did was amazing, on target, and took real courage. I’m sorry he handled it in such a crappy way. I don’t really have better words for it. Many Ts would just jump right in and love to talk about this all more and help you feel safe enough to understand you better, and *partner* with you - not have you or the T take control, but guide you... grr. He doesn’t need to be analytic to be responsive and supportive. ugh. I can understand why this would be upsetting. Yet, I love what TN points out. I think in a way he has given you something good – the understanding that he’s not the right T for what you need - something I'm sure you will find.

hang in there,
~jane

Liese I'm relieved to hear that you calmed down and I hope what I said was not too upsetting to you. It's so frustrating when we need something from our Ts and they cannot or will not provide it. We try so hard to make the relationship work because it's important to us and we don't want to give it up. But sometimes it's just like beating a dead horse. I learned this the really hard way.

I know the pain involved in this kind of situation and I don't speak lightly of these things. If you are forced to take "control" of the therapy you are reenacting what you did as a child... you took control of your FOO and your home life and of yourself when you were too young and shouldn't have had to.

What he mentioned about desensitizing yourself regarding the rape... that is classic CBT exposure therapy. That is what he knows. I'm not putting that down and it has it's place but I don't think it's what you are looking for.

BTW, do you mind if I ask what type of degree your T has? PhD, PsyD, LCSW, MSW?

I hope you can find some peace tonight and can get a night of good sleep. I'm here if you need to talk.

BTW, it takes a lot of courage to do what you did today. You should be proud that you stood up for yourself.

TN

He has his PhD. in clinical psychology. How does the clinical interact with the CBT?

Yeah, it does feel pretty shitty. I feel like I failed again. Couldn't make it work. It's too hard. It's too scary. I don't want to even tell him what happened because he made it so hard for me to get it out in the first place. Like you said, Janedoe, most would love to be there, parnter with you.

He could do that if he wanted to. It makes me so sad. Working with him since the fall has felt like walking on broken glass.

I know you guys aren't going to listen to me complain about him forever. He told me he wanted me to trust him. He also said today that he was glad to see that I was doing something constructive by talking to him about it, instead of something destructive. I honestly don't need to relive the whole thing. But I need to be able to reference it because of my current situation now with my H. Oh, God, I don't know what I need. I told him that the past 6 years of life have been traumatic. And he agreed.

quote:

Yeah, it does feel pretty shitty. I feel like I failed again. Couldn't make it work. It's too hard. It's too scary.

Liese, you need to hear this... and I know it's hard because you are so activated... YOU did not fail... HE failed you. You did nothing wrong and did a lot of things right. This is not your fault.

Many (not all) PhD's do more work in research and in academics (teaching) and less work clinically. Many PhD programs do not emphasize doing their own therapy which I think should be mandatory so they clear out their own junk before they mess with ours. PsyD's especially have a lot of clinical experience built into their education during their 5 year program. They see patients and work in various settings like hospitals, clinics, forensic units etc from day one of their education in the PsyD program. LCSWs and MSWs seem to be more knowledgeable about attachment and how that works clinically. Just something I learned along the way.

And we will listen to you talk about your T for as long as you need to. There is no time limit on it. You will find your way when the time is right. I am concerned that you don't get too anxious and/or depressed while this is going on and that is why I would recommend you do some interviewing if you can and if finances permit so you have someone in place when you decide to leave your T... IF you decide to leave. It is ultimately your decision. We will be here to support you whatever you decide to do and if you need to talk about this further.

TN

Thanks DF, the process continues. It's just that the trauma stuff sounds so right on to me. He says all the trauma stuff is psychoanalytic. Is that true? I just thought trauma research is trauma research. I just relate to it. I really started to research when I felt like he didn't care about me back in the fall. Before that, I didn't research much at all. The research is a double-edged sword. It has really helped me stay in therapy because I would have run away 7 months ago from my own feelings. But on the other hand, I'm seeing now how it has deteriorated my relationship with him.

I think the bottom line is for me that I need to know I'm not a bad person. I can change. I know I need to change my emotional reactions. I know I need to learn about people. I know I need to grow a stronger sense of self. I know I need to learn how not to take other people personally. I know I have to get past all this hurt. But I need to know it wasn't my fault and I'm not a bad person. Why can't he give me that?

TN,

We cross-posted. Thanks for saying what you did. That really helps. Thanks for being there tonight. It's really important stuff I'm asking myself. Even though it's scary.

For me the parallels to my relationship to my father is uncanny. My father didn't let me talk about the past. And I've told T this. Is he just paralelling it on purpose? To piss me off once and for all? I feel like, what am I supposed to be, a woman without a past? I'm just supposed to make these connections between my thoughts and my feelings and my behaviors and catch them when they are irrational? Am I supposed to be like some automoton? And then I will be happy and all my fears and problems will go away?

Liese,

Ditch this T and get yourself a real T!!! This guy clearly does not have the skills to help you. There are Ts who do, however. This is not your fault. Its just not a good fit. Trying to fit a square peg into a round whole.

ps. sorry if I am harsh. I can be pretty blunt at times.

Liese... how are you today? Did you get any sleep last night? Let us know how you are doing.

I don't think your T is trying to parallel your Dad consciously... it may be an unconscious reenactment of your past because he does not have the ability to work in the past or work psychodynamically and may be adverse to intimate relationships. Maybe this is why he prefers CBT style therapy. Not really sure but I don't think he is manipulating the therapy on a conscious level.

Just my 2 cents.

TN

liese. i am sorry to say, but i do agree with what everyone is saying.

18 months ago, when i started this therapy journey, i started with a lcsw. cbt approach.

not knowing what was wrong, not what i needed. assuming therapy was all the same, i felt like i was bashing my head against the wall trying to get this t to help me. he listened and nodded and tried to talk common sense into me. he didn't "GET" me. i beat my head in for nine months, then left, pursued other things, eventually landing in psychoanalytical psychotherapy with a md in psychiatry and an analyst.

there IS a difference. these people GET attachment, connections, the past, trauma...

as hard as it is to hear, he doesn't GET or DO those things. perhaps you feel like i did with my first t, 'why, if he can't help me with this, does he not take me, figuratively, by the hand and show me where to go to work this out.'

i couldn't believe he wouldn't, and mine was a minister, too, so i couldn't believe he would reallly be unethical and just want me for the money and the 'amusement' of watching me wretch on his sofa.

i encourage you to look for psycho-dynamic (code word for deep, in my book) type therapy.

when interviewed by t3, t1 told her that 'he kept trying to be supportive to me, and hoped that one day i would work it out).'

liese, believe me, there IS a huge difference in approaches to therapy. cbt/supportive stuff is NOT what trauma/attachment people need, in fact, for me, it was as INFURIATING AS HELL, and just like my stupid parents who NEVER KNEW how to help me or talk to me..they shunned emotions, which just made mine explosive inside.

is that how you feel with him????

perhaps he can help you find the deeper, psycho-analytical or psycho-dynamic therapy you need, and transition you as smoothly as possible towards that and work with your future t to help integrate his work with you.

one p told me a long time ago, when i was working with this first t, that what i REALLY needed was psychoanalysis. i pleaded that i could not just 'start over' with someone and waste all the work i had put into the relationship with the current cbt t. but, and this is my point, he said that really, jill, a therapist meets you where you ARE, adn alot of people overvalue 'past' work, and think that information bank will just be lost, but really liese. it got you to where you are, and to a place where you know what you need, and what you aren't getting. THAT is something, and i know, as you do, i WISH it could have started out with just one person and stayed, but, mine didn't. and, it works out. not as smoothly and transition-less as we would all like, but, believe me ... ALL THERAPY AND ALL THERAPISTS ARE NNNNOOOOOOTTTTTT ALIKE!!!! their training and approach (from cbt to analysis) is as different as night and day.

and the control issue??? huge problem.

the silver lining, liese??? for me (not today of course, other issue) but analytical therapy is SO MUCH EASIER and GENTLER than the other. namely, because someone ELSE is driving it. they GET us, they understand the part the past plays in our heads, it is not so flipping BEHAVIOURAL. they KNOW there is energy underneath the actions, unconsciuos energy, that, when brought to light, will be instrumental in healing old wounds, and supporting growth and self-understanding, and, acceptance.

too, your quote:

"I think the bottom line is for me that I need to know I'm not a bad person. I can change. I know I need to change my emotional reactions. I know I need to learn about people. I know I need to grow a stronger sense of self. I know I need to learn how not to take other people personally. I know I have to get past all this hurt. But I need to know it wasn't my fault and I'm not a bad person. Why can't he give me that?""

liese, YOU just did. and really, that can ultimately only come from YOU. and for me, it is reflected back to me in the eyes of my analyst, who KNOWS me.

THAT is what parents should do, but for those of us that that never happened?? a well trained t can provide the next best thing.

much love and empathy to you, jill

quote:

one p told me a long time ago, when i was working with this first t, that what i REALLY needed was psychoanalysis. i pleaded that i could not just 'start over' with someone and waste all the work i had put into the relationship with the current cbt t. but, and this is my point, he said that really, jill, a therapist meets you where you ARE, adn alot of people overvalue 'past' work, and think that information bank will just be lost, but really liese. it got you to where you are, and to a place where you know what you need, and what you aren't getting. THAT is something, and i know, as you do, i WISH it could have started out with just one person and stayed, but, mine didn't. and, it works out. not as smoothly and transition-less as we would all like, but, believe me ... ALL THERAPY AND ALL THERAPISTS ARE NNNNOOOOOOTTTTTT ALIKE!!!! their training and approach (from cbt to analysis) is as different as night and day.

Jill... this is exactly what I needed to hear in words. You are so right and so was that P. My new T is meeting me where I am! I am so upset at losing 3YEARS of therapy with oldT. I worked so hard and I keep telling my T that I have lost all of that and all of who I was becoming. He keeps telling me that the work was MINE not oldT and that I did it and I still have that within me. I keep asking him how can I go back and redo all of that and he reassures me that I don't need to because I took that work with me. I am just realizing he is meeting me where I am NOW and I AM different than I was 3 years ago. I sure as hell know what to look for in a good T and what I want out of therapy!

Yes it's really sad that this could not be continued and finished with my first T. I loved him and worked so hard to earn his praise and approval. I wanted him to be proud of me and sadly that was not to be. BUT... my current T makes everything SO SO much easier for me. He just understands and accepts and I don't have to waste so much time defending why I feel this way or that way and I don't worry as much that he does not understand what I'm revealing to him and that he will think I'm a sicko nutjob. He just GETS IT. And he is so kind and caring and althought it was gut wrenching to be abandoned... I at least found someone who I know will be a very important person in my life and who will help me to reach the place where I want to be.

Thanks for your thoughts jill. How are you doing today after your session yesterday??

TN

Feeling a lot of empathy for you, jill, because I'm wondering if I'm about to find out tonight that my T is not the one to help me either. Feeling sick to my stomach, literally, just thinking about it. If that's the case, wish I could have just randomly met him as a friend or mentor instead, because I don't want to lose him!!! But, I agree it is better to know rather than continue to frustrate yourself and feel beyond repair by not getting what you really need to progress. We have to believe there are others out there we can connect with who know how to help! I would have never thought I could get at this level of vulnerability in six months. That can't be an accident or isolated incident.

Liese,

How are you doing today?

And Liese too! Sorry...jeez, what a mistake to not remember who started the thread. I feel like such a jack-@$$. Really out of sorts today. So sorry!!!

quote:

I'm not understanding what you said here, but this doesn't sound like someone who wants to be in PA therapy..not wanting to know why the way you are... But you're an analytical thinker, you seem so psychoanalytical-but is that a result from being in therapy with your T? Considering your T is an expert in the human condition, have you considered asking HIM if he thinks it to be better for you to do PA therapy? That's a long-term commitment, and can be very costly...You said things went great for 3 years with this T. I may have missed something in your other posts, so if there is more to this, I am not aware of it..but I hope you work through the issues as to what's changed so much after the first 3 years that you'd consider ending this relationship (dumping??)..... maybe what you want is right in front of you?

UV I think from reading Liese's other posts and what she says here she does want to know herself as she says she "wants to know ME". That would indicate a deeper therapy. Of course Liese can come on here and elaborate further and correct me if I am off base. She also mentioned that since September trying to do therapy with this T is like walking on broken glass so this has been simmering for awhile. I think once Liese became more knowledgeable about the process she felt her T was lacking in some areas and therapy was not moving forward. I believe any psychoanalytical skills Liese acquired came from her own hard work and not from her T. Her T has told her that he does not know how to do the therapy she is seeking to do. He asked her if reading an article on trauma therapy would be "hard"... he told her he is happy she is taking control of the therapy... all signs that he is not in control and she is working for both of them.

UV you always talk about psychoanalytic therapy and I would like to know if you differeniate between PA therapy and psychodynamic therapy. And if so, what are the differences you see between the two schools??

Thanks,
TN

liese. i hope this is not too overwhelming for you. are ya there???

really, i think he can help transition you, if that is the direction you choose. it just worries me, and reminds me of my days, with you HAVING to research stuff and have him read it when that is not his inclination.

i think t's need to be more proactive with clients they can't help. it probably has more to do with their insecurities than us, but, geez, who is paying whom?

i could have gotten mine to transition me, but i am definitely a 'cut and run' kind of girl. not that i recommend it. but, being upfront and asking for assistance with this SHOULD be 'kosher'.

i am quite outspoken on this, but, i think cbt versus psychoanalytical psychotherapy is like a hangnail versus a stroke. there is NO WAY behavioiural stuff would do ANYTHING but pile my issues deeper and deeper inside the vault.

now, the reopening is NOT easy, but, with a competent surgeon. it is do-able.

sorry for the metaphors and the extreme opinions, but, it is what i DO!!

too, analysis is so dad-gum interesting!!!

thinking of you, liese. jill

UV... thanks for your response.

The problem is that I (and perhaps others) are misled with you refer to your therapy as psychoanalytic because most think of that as the 4 times a week, on the couch, blank slate therapist kind of therapy.

I do not consider my therapy/therapist as psychoanalytical (and neither does he). According to my T we are engaged in psychodynamic therapy. We sit face to face, the emphasis is on the relationship, on discussing the relationship, on my past, and my T talks as much as I do and will make appropriate self-disclosures. My T is a Psy.D and has had extensive training and clinical experience and years of his own therapy. He is a fan of Kohut, but is well versed in other theorists and can discuss them. I do see him twice a week for now but that will eventually go to once per week.

I just wanted to be sure of what we were talking about here.

Now I will return this thread to Liese and what happened in her therapy and with her therapist.

Sorry Liese!

TN

TN,

Not to worry. I love discussing the different theories, etc. and learning. I learn from all of you.

I had to go underground for a couple of days to sort through my feelings. I left a message for T yesterday that now I see how I victimize myself. He said he doesn't make connections to the past and I insisted on sharing the trauma with him and I should have listened because now I've share the most intimate part of my life with him (and I feel like a jerk, didn't say this but...) Anyway, I did ask for a return phone call because I wanted to hear back from him.

He left a message a while later that he'd already read one of the articles and that he knows we can incorporate some of the ideas into our work together. He also apologized for not giving this the import it deserves in the past.

So I consulted with T2 today, who I could never work with but he knows his shit.

He said: After meeting him only three times, he told me that I'm a textbook case, given what he knows about my childhood and how I turned out.
(yeah, makes me feel a little better that it's not my fault.)

He also said that of course the rape is important and current T and I need to be able to talk about it. And of course therapy needs to be tailored to the individual and it shouldn't be that the therapist is a particular orientation and that's the only therapy they do and the client has to fit into the therapists mold. (he's a cbt, btw, with advanced training in behavioral - I can hear you all howling).

I know you all are going to scream but here was his advice: He encouraged me to hammer things out with current T. He talked about "interventions". That maybe what current T is doing is an intervention? The people pleaser in me is doing the research, trying to figure out what I need so I can go into therapy and ... do his job? Is that what the research is all about? Or is it an avoidance technique? OR do I feel so unsure of myself that I need to find validation in the materials? ... Anyway, maybe I just need to be able to go in there and ask for what I want. And say, I need to talk about this and figure out how it is affecting my marriage or not affecting my marriage, and if you can't do that for me, then I do need to leave.

quote:

TN-Does that sound like how your T practies, for the most part?

Yup, UV... that is exactly how my T practices except for number 7 and I think that is because we have not gotten to that point yet. I have only been with him for 4 months and have mostly been working through the grief over the abandonment of my oldT.

I am very fortunate to be with such a wonderful T who is so knowledgeable and trustworthy (although I'm still carefully watching him LOL).

As for your own thread... I say go for it.

TN

Liese,

I think the research is intellectualizing rather than getting to the emotion. (I do this too). Perhaps he is ignoring the research so that you will get to the heart of the matter...the emotions.

Yaku, forget to say not to worry about your post above. You're so bubbly. Although I know you are struggling a lot. you've come to the right place. Everyone here is so supportive and knowledgeable. So glad you came to the forum. Welcome.

Okay, my "research" revealed that it doesn't really matter what orientation the therapist is, the quality of the relationship is the biggest determining factor in predicting a positive outcome. However, I suppose if you yourself tended to lean toward a particular orientation it makes sense that you would like a therapist with the orientation also.

Recently, since I've been consulting, I did consult with a PA. And this is what he told me. He actually made me feel really good, like he'd want me as a client and made the remark, oh, I can't steal clients but call me if you need me. Anyway, he said he would spend a bunch of time with me discussing my birth. My Dad was in the psych ward for a month when I was born. My grandmother brought my mother to the hospital in a cab and dropped her off. It was december and there was a big blizzard so no one came to see my mother. She had her first baby by herself. (My older brother and sister were adopted.) I get the bonding stuff but honestly do I really want to spend therapeutic time discussing how the situation surrounding my birth affects me now? I may be analytical but I don't find that attractive at all. At the end of the day, I am a practical girl. I don't want to waste my time on stuff like that. He also told me that he would have spent a year on how I reacted when the other therapist double booked me. I don't want to spend a year on that. But then again, in my FOO emotions were dismissed big time and that could be a big reason why I find all that unattractive. So far, I've done the best in therapy with the two men, who were much more action oriented. Do this and you'll feel better. Yes, it does help. But it's not the end of the story.

Actually my current T and I have been discussing that a lot lately but more or less incidentally, as in you don't trust me because your other therapist double booked you. And he does tell me he agrees with me she did it on purpose in order to elicit a reaction. Whether or not he really believes that or he's just humoring me to gain my trust, I'm not sure.

I ran from psychodynamic lady (the one who double booked me). Years ago, I went to a gestalt guy and things just kind of fizzled out. Things have been difficult since the fall with T and I have felt like I was walking on broken glass. The first three years of our therapy were mostly blissful and I was functioning better and better. But without him, I would fall apart. I have to learn how to function on my own. I think that since the fall, when he also reassured me that I could stay with him as long as I want and that it doesn't matter how long it takes for me to heal, he also pulls at the rug a little, which is when I feel like I'm on broken glass. He pulls at the rug and I freak and then he pulls me back in and then he pulls at the rug a little and I freak and he does the same thing over and over. I can only really think that I had to get attached but that's not the end of the story. I have to learn how to separate too. I have to be able to tolerate that separation anxiety. And, for christs sake, I wasn't separating on my own. It's kind of like mom, leaving you at babysitting. You wouldn't go on your own. If I do have an attachment injury from early childhood, in a sense, I AM like a two year old. I've told him that, I feel like a two year old and he just smiles.

The CPTSD article I read about phase-oriented treatment was really interesting. What people like me have to learn to do is #1: learn to stop avoiding and tolerate my emotions. #2 after I learn to tolerate my emotions, I have to learn how to mentalize, which means something like I have to be able to sit back, think about my emotions and be able to think about the other person and what's going on for them, or something like that. I get so caught up in my emotions and they are not the whole story, that I'm not seeing the world for what it is. I'm caught up in my distortions, I suppose you might say.

I'm definitely really bad at the metacognition stuff. It seems to me there's a bunch of you out there who are better at it than I am. I feel like there's a black hole in my brain, something no thoughts can go through.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm realizing through reading the CPTSD how frightened I've been of my own emotions and avoid things that might trigger them. It was interesting in that it talked about how some fears are outside of us, such as snakes, etc. But that psychologists have recogized that people are afraid of the mental contents in their head. And, so, my world was getting smaller and smaller. I also do the stupid competitive repetition stuff and I guess all this shit just keeps getting reinforced.

Maybe what I can't do with my T is go through the emotional stuff and not know what I'm going through. If he would just say, okay, you have an attachment injury. Maybe present it to me in an intellectual way so that my emotions aren't so scary.

Because to a large extent, if I'm going to grow I have to learn to tolerate these difficult emotions and get past them.

I'm kind of difficult to work with. I don't answer his questions. I say I don't know to everything. I'm not direct. There's a reason why all this is taking so long. I am a huge avoider. Maybe we'd talk about my emotions more if I talked about my emotions more. It's hard for me to go there.

Liese - thanks so much for the forgiveness. Talk about overreaction, but I almost deleted my account over making that mistake...yay, self-loathing!
It's so funny that I come across as bubbly, because in person, people say I am so intense (friendly, but intense). I was the designated depressed poet in high school, then socially isolated at Stanford and in general feel completely incapable of interacting without constantly assuming others hate me for one reason or another. I am MUCH more expressive in writing, though. Some days I am struggling a lot, and I really appreciate being able to relate to everyone. Some days, I am like, "Who the ... is that person?" and I don't even get why I am the way I am. Oh well.

quote:

Maybe what I can't do with my T is go through the emotional stuff and not know what I'm going through. If he would just say, okay, you have an attachment injury. Maybe present it to me in an intellectual way so that my emotions aren't so scary

This is EXACTLY how I feel. My T is very spiritually-oriented, so it's difficult to get him to talk about the conceptual stuff, so I can grasp it and feel permission regarding these feelings I don't fully understand and be less at their mercy.

Yaku,

So glad you read my post. I felt really bad that I didn't reply sooner. Just been struggling this week.

Stanford. Now I understand what you mean about struggling when people tell you you are smart because then you won't feel like you can ask questions when you don't understand something? Is that what I understood you to say? I never could have gotten into Stanford. I had to work hard academically. (not that you didn't, so I don't want that to come across the wrong way.)But I actually used to really hate to tell people I went to law school because I felt the same way, that they would just assume I should know everything when in reality I understand so little. I needed to give myself permission to look like an "ass" so I could get my questions answered.

Yaku,

I was the depressed philosopher.

How do you add "UPDATE" to the title of a thread? I've been looking everywhere and can't figure it out. TN, I know you know.

UPDATE: Left voicemails for T all week. He left corresponding voicemails back to me. So, I decided this morning to see if he had an opening today and he did and I went.

It went well. After we talked about why I was so mad at him, we talked more about the "event". I just feel so relieved to have it out there in the open. I told him I felt like I was on trial on Monday, trying to prove how traumatic it was when I know for a fact how traumatic it was, that I lived through it and know how it messed up my life totally and completely for a year. How everything I've done since then has been a rebuilding. Not successfully but that's what I've been working on. I told him that I need to be able to talk about it and how it relates to my relationship with my H. We talked about how alone I was at the time but then I asked him if I was always alone and he said he thinks so. Why does that little piece of information make me feel so much better? Not that being alone would have been my choice but at least it takes a little of the blame off me. He also said he thinks I'm beginning to trust him. And I told him I think he's right. So, we're going to keep working together right now.

Guys, I know you hate him. But I hope you can weather the storms with me. I've made more progress with him than with anyone.

quote:

Now I understand what you mean about struggling when people tell you you are smart because then you won't feel like you can ask questions when you don't understand something? Is that what I understood you to say?

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I spent a number of years avoiding being asked about college, because I didn't want to admit to having gone there and then have all the questions about what I studied and what I am doing with my degree (well, the stupid ones about Chelsea Clinton and Ben Savage too) and then see the look of disappointment on their faces when I am not what they expect out of a Stanford graduate. BUT, I'm trying to allow myself to realize even if I did nothing with it, getting in and sticking with it through a serious bout of depression, graduating with distinction, especially through all the family bull of getting kicked out and raising my siblings in high school...I have to allow myself to be proud of it. It is one of the few things I can actually point to and say for sure, "I did that!" So, I almost painstakingly force myself to admit it in safer places now. Then, I want to beat the crap out of myself for "bragging," LOL. It's not just hard for me to ask questions though. I literally assimilate whatever I'm told when someone is an "authority figure" and internalize it as MY truth, somehow. It is ridiculous and makes therapy impossible, because my T always thinks I am doing better, because I can effortlessly understand and regurgitate what "health" sounds like. Then, I have to admit, "Well, it's great that it seems that way, but if I'm going to be honest, I did [such and such] this week." When it gets at it's worst, I start to question whether ME exists or is just some sort of construct. Like I will find out through the therapy process, there is no inner person I am to get to know and accept or learn to be. I guess that is my problem with feeling so alienated from myself, too many conflicting inputs...but to get back to the topic, yes, being labeled as smart makes it both hard for me to show confusion and my sense of being evaluated leads me to identify that person as an authority and accept all input without filtering. I have to work REALLY hard to not do that. It's humiliating.

Liese ~ oh I am so glad it went well and I am so glad you told him all that you did. I'm so glad some of the self blame and shame was lifted... yay!!! you did and faced hard stuff. That's encouraging to me in the midst of struggling to do this myself. Glad your T responded like he did and I hope you do keep finding what works for you - that is what is important - We are with you regardless if you stay with him and walk through the storms or look elsewhere. And there likely will be storms, tough times to walk through, no matter who you work with. Most of all, I just want to say that you have handled this was much style and grace and it's so amazing and cool what you did and how you are processing and sorting all of this out step by step.
~ jane

Jane, Thanks for the support. It brought tears to my eyes. It's good and scary at the same time. I trust him and then the floor falls out. I trust him again and then the floor falls out. His version: I make the floor fall out.

Remembered today my first year of college, the year before the rape. I went to a college about 8 hours from home. It was kind of a local school, not many from my area in NY. And all the other kids went home frequently to see family and friends. I was feeling pretty homesick in October but didn't have a visit home planned until Thanksgiving because the plane fares were expensive. But in October I called home crying, begging my father to let me come home. And, he told me I was maniuplating him. And I was up to my old tricks. I believed him at the time but now looking back, it all does make sense that I became this cold person with no feelings and no connections and no needs. Probably the truth was that he didn't have the money for the airfare but that's not what he said.

Yaku, it sounds to me like you are a people pleaser. Which is what I am. I turn myself inside out to make others happy. And, so all the cues on how to act and think and feel come from the outside. You probably don't even tune into your internal cues and even if you did, it would probably cause you so much anxiety because you wouldn't be getting the feedback you need. Of course, it all is conditioning. (For my behavioral friends.) Be patient. Developing a sense of self will take time. Did you mention that you were Chinese? Isn't that very much a cultural thing? Emphasis on the other as opposed to the self? You are caught between two cultures?

To me, Yaku, the dilemma you describe if very much one that ... hmmmm ...how do I describe it? You are leaving YOU out of the equation as if you didn't exist. And so you take the information in and it's not being processed in the part of the brain where the self is. The self is still very much in there but it's not communicating with the information coming from the outside world and the information coming in isn't communicating with the self. You are aware on some levels of all the information but you have been trained to only listen to the information coming in. And, BTW, you should be very proud of yourself. A degree from Stanford is quite an accomplishment.

So, where now with T? Yes, I feel good today. Will the floor drop out on Monday again? Will I be able to find some peace now that I don't have to look for my attachment figure anymore? I have a feeling this battle isn't over yet.

Maybe we should have FORUM MOVIE NIGHT and all watch ZELIG, Woody Allen's movie about the ultimate chameleon? This Sunday night and we can all discuss it next week?

Liese - yes, that is exactly it. I'm actually Caucasian, but studied Japanese, just because...one of the things people don't get. In my home, the safest thing was to be invisible and always pleasing others (specifically my mother by giving up everything to take care of her kids) was the closest I could get. Not doing so had consequences like getting kicked out, having stuff thrown at you and some pretty brutal emotional abuse, so I actually crave neglect because it was the safest experience I had as a pre-teen/teen. I'm so sorry for the experiences you've gone through, but glad therapy was a good experience this week. I'll be praying it continues going that way!!!

quote:

How do you add "UPDATE" to the title of a thread? I've been looking everywhere and can't figure it out. TN, I know you know.

Liese, you go back to your first post in the thread and it should open with the little subject window when you click on the thread name and then you can change the subject line or add to it. Hope that makes sense.

I'm glad your T found time to see you today. We don't hate him but I at least think he's the wrong T for what you need to process and I'm afraid he will damage or hurt you through his lack of knowledge. Not that I hate him, just that I'm afraid he could harm you.

You say you trust him and then the floor falls out and you trust him and the floor falls out. It is that kind of inconsistency that makes trusting so difficult. Then you say "his version: I make the floor fall out". I don't understand this. Is he trying to blame you?

I am glad that you could talk to him about your trauma and that he listened well to you. I hope he learned something from this disruption and that he will continue to read about trauma and learn how to help you. Did he say why he told you last time that he is not the T for you?

Liese, don't worry about pleasing us. The most important thing is helping yourself and doing what is right for you. If you believe he is helping you then you are the best judge as we are not in the room with you. Whatever you decide we are here to support you.

Hug
TN

Hey,

TN,Thanks for the tutorial. I will try that. I also need to learn how to delete a thread. How do I do that?

I left him a message saying that this is what I need to talk about and if you can't accommodate me, I have to find another therapist. He never said he wasn't the therapist for me, he said he doesn't make connections. I also told him in my message that I need to make connections. I need to understand me.

Tn, maybe it's all about developing a separate sense of self, if that's something I didn't do well. So, for instance, he throws something out there and being the people pleaser, I just respond to that and feel "controlled". If I had a stronger sense of self, I'd be able to realize that it's not what I want, I would throw what I want out there and then we'd proceed from there. Maybe the ability to feel anger is pivotal in developing a strong sense of self. And, denial of needs is pivotal in experiencing anger. See the loop?

The good thing that came out of this week, is that I actually reached out to him when I was mad. First, I left him a voicemail and he responded. I left him another voicemail and he responded again. Then, I decided to go see him. In the past when I got mad at him, I wouldn't say anything. I would try to figure out his therapeutic angle and decide this is what he was trying to teach me. Actually the first three years were pretty much like that. I had a lot of transference I had to work through.

When I walked into his office yesterday, the first thing I said was something like, you are so insensitive. And, he said, yeah, and anything else? And, I said, no, that was it. I know a lot of other people on the forum do get mad at their T's but I haven't. First time ever was yesterday and it was so lame. He also told me yesterday that I can get mad at him any time, that it's okay. That I can question him, whatever. He told me that he read all of one article and was into the second. He really liked the articles I gave him. That he's not a trauma specialist but that he's treated people with rape issues. That he still has confidence in his ability to help me. And, that we've built a relationship, which might be the most important factor. TN, I don't know about you but I haven't been able to build any really close relationships since the rape. My H and I live parallel lives, which is probably the reason I married him. He keeps a comfortable distance from me. And, I from him.

What is also helping me is the consultation I went on. I told that guy everything. And, if he felt there was something amiss, I think he would tell me. He encouraged me to go back and hammer things out. Maybe this is the therapeutic work I need to do. Maybe I need to have someone be responsive to my needs when I feel hurt. I got to the point where I was avoiding people because I felt hurt all the time. So I survived the week. I feel better today. I also feel better because now I'm not so afraid of consulting anyone anymore, should I have any questions in the future. This guy I consulted with actually has advanced training beyond his Ph.D. When I looked it up to see what the letters meant next to his name, they actually have to do with consumer protection. So, I really went to a good person.

The first three years with him were problem free. I think that's a good track record. What I tend to do is the minute my feelings get hurt, I decide I can't trust and I run from the relationship. So maybe it's a good thing that I was able to go back to him and talk to him about what was bothering me.

I need to integrate the traumatic event but I also need to learn to feel again and be responsive to my own needs. That is going to keep me from getting victimized. Maybe those two things go hand in hand. Ignoring my needs may have gotten me into trouble in the first place.