(((BB))) I am sorry that you are still waiting on your old T to follow through on his promise. I think, if nothing else, you can view all those messages you feel like you got from him about not needing therapy, about misplacing your marital attachment into therapy, etc. through the lens of the obvious fact that he was not a trustworthy person. Well-meaning maybe and I'm sure he cared about you, but he wasn't someone you could count on. I relate to that in that my dad is in many ways very smart, wise and I have tended to take what he said as gospel for much of my life as a result of an early connection I had with him...saw him as something more than he was. In the end, the reality is that my dad is a guy who chose to abandon me, regardless of how smart he was and how much he cared. Then I started to realize that maybe he isn't what I was seeing him as and the messages he gave me weren't gospel. That's how I see your old T. He's not someone to be trusted. That doesn't mean you necessarily chuck everything you feel like you got from him, but the stuff that only hurt you...I wish I could just make that disappear for you. I don't know if I'm making any sense here. A bit of a flawed analogy. I'm really off today.

I like the sound of cowboy T too. It's funny. I often think my T would look pretty cool with an earring even though he is older, bald, etc. He plays guitar (well, and bass guitar, drums, piano, etc.). It wouldn't fit with his slacks and shirt, but I think it would suit him otherwise. I can relate to the look throwing you off, though. My T's shirt was untucked for the first time ever during my last session (granted I am at the end of his day and we sat on the floor). I felt a bit awkward that I even notice...and of course didn't say anything. Wow, I keep getting off on a tangent, sorry! Having noticed TN suddenly referring to her newT as her T, I have the same hopes for you if Cowboy T is the guy for you. And, maybe he's not. However, it seems at the very least that he's safe and steady so far. I think you need safe and steady, someone you can trust, more than anything right now as you heal. I'm sorry that Old T has left such a big hole inside you. I hope you go gently and take time with yourself to feel your feelings, and if you feel like you can trust Cowboy, maybe risk a bit of what you are feeling over this abandonment.

(((((hugs))))) to you, BB.

BB,

Old T seems a bit of a coward. Even if what he has to say is hard to read/hear, doesn't his profession obligate him to confront what is hard? Seems to me that a T who practices avoidance is one with some baggage not yet unpacked, rather it's dragged into therapy for his clients eventually to carry.

CowboyT might help you, after a period of grieving, to leave this extra luggage at the curb for the street sweepers...where it belongs.

In the meantime, and for the record, I'd be doing/feeling exactly as you are.

erm...I am sorry Monte, I got all deletey.

Thank you! I like your crystal ball. I hope it is correct!

Thank you Strms, Yaku, TN, and hemlock too, for your great comments...I will try to post an update soon.

Love,

Beebs

MONTE,

What quote?

Thank you, Monts- though I'll ne'er repeaty...
'cause when I do that, I feel sheety.


I like Cowboy. He's a nice guy. He seems to be, without a lot of mumbo-jumbo hocus pocus profound kinda stuff- simply be doing therapy with me. I told my T lots of stuff I guess, I must've done it all over the email- maybe in sessions sometime- but it never *felt* like I told him anything at all. It never felt real, which was a major theme in my life anyway. This guy just dived in and asked me about my family history in the third session, I told him without a lot of problems some of it- and he made some comments that I found wuite enlightening that made me realize why I would be shying away from relationships and finding it difficult to engage socially. And...I'm doing better. But I was doing better at the start with my T, too.
I still miss my T. But Cowboy is...very casual. I'm used to the gravity of my T, but Cowboy's chattyness and general way of being does have a tendency to make talking *possible.* He's not setting me up for failure like my T did. I feel like it will be ok until or unless I let Cowboy know what a difficult person I am, how impossible, how critical, how needy, how pushing away, how I need any other person I relate to to be *perfect.* I wouldn't be doing therapy, except my SD told me that, in his opinion I really need to be in therapy, because he doesn't know why I am in this much pain, but if something hurts that badly, you need to go see the doctor. makes sense, I guess, except I really wonder if it's like...shrapnel, you know, maybe I just have to live with it, whatever *it* is.

You all will like this: Cowboy T said both that he enjoys me, and that I am doing good work in there, in my third session. He patted my shoulder when I left. I have no idea why that is a big deal but it is. He just very human. I have to remind myself that these things were very off-handed. Otherwise I will make too big a thing of them, and wreck it.

I told my SD in my final session with him, (I won't see him again unless it is by Skype or something sometime maybe) that I had a few sessions with a local therapist, and that I think I should quit. SD got out of me that it is because Cowboy was nice to me. SD said that one of my basic problems is with accepting love, or care- I'm so confused about that. I make too much out of it- really I do. And T said the same thing- that I couldn't accept his care. I'm so confused.

Cowboy seemed ever so slightly perturbed or put off by the fact that I interviewed OAT. (what was supposed to be an interview. ) I explained that it was from when I was just looking into a different therapist as an idea, and thought it would be better to see a few people before I decided anything. I asked if that was ok, and he said nothing. I have vague idea why I wanted to follow through on interviewing OAT. I just did. Cowboy said if I do anything that bugs you, tell me ok? I said I would. Then I immediately knew I was lying, because it would be almost impossible to tell him if he bugged me I think. I'm not sure it would even occur to me at this point if something bugged me. my T also said I was to tell him if things bugged me, and look where that got me.

Now Cowboy probably thinks I'm hopping around from therapist to therapist or something, but, if I stick with therapy it would be just with him, now, I think he's the best I've found around from my inquiries. idk if I am doing the right thing. I'm just going on a wing and a prayer. I still judge myself really harshly for going to therapy in the first place. I still think of it as me being bad to even do this, or to not at the very least stick with my own T. But I don't know what else to do.

I don't know what my alternative is.

BB

(((BB))) I like Cowboy T. I can envision you learning to receive his care eventually. I'm sorry things are done with your SD, but glad that he encouraged you to stay in therapy. I agree that if something hurts that bad, you need to go to the doctor. I spent so long avoiding that truth. I hope you will learn, over time, that it is safe to trust Cowboy T enough to notice and tell him when there are issues between you. I know you say your Old T said the same, but in the end he didn't seem to "hear" them or was unresponsive. It may take a while to trust that someone could really hear, really understand, really care enough to try to work things out or explain things in a way that makes how things are feel OK. It will take time for you to know, internally, in a profound way, whether he is safe. 10 months in, I am just approaching that place myself. It is a bittersweet feeling, being safe with someone while coming to understand that you have had so few moments of safety in your lifetime...but it's much better than never knowing that experience at all.

BB,

I like the sound of Cowboy T as well. I think even though you miss your T that having someone right there with you in your same space and breathing the same air will really help. I'm not saying online therapy can never work, but for someone who has trouble accepting care and engaging fully into the relationship (I do too so I'm not criticizing here!) I think that there is something to be said for having someone right there with you. It won't be easy work, but it will be worthwhile work.

((((BB)))))

Don't have a lot of time to reply now but he sounds great and I'm so glad you went three times already. That's terrific. It's okay to be scared.

xoxox

Liese

thanks guys...

idk. It strikes me that I keep attributing motives and things to my T's lack of response to my last email to him. Then I realize, painfully that there *is* no motive, that he isn't thinking *anything.* I mean...clearly he was only ever a T, never gave me a second thought outside of session, and..he has chosen to simply put me out of his mind now that I am no longer engaging or paying for his "services." (Although, I could still go back..)

Can somebody remind me again why a relationship like that is supposed to help a person to heal? I sincerely cannot remember.

What else is wierd? I used to see his little light for Skype come on and off all the time. It was kinda nice to see it there, just know he existed and there was this little thread of connection. Now he is constantly "offline" to me. He must have taken me off his list. That really kills for some reason.

quote:

Can somebody remind me again why a relationship like that is supposed to help a person to heal? I sincerely cannot remember.

The truth is Beebs.... that you are correct a relationship like **THAT** does not heal. Your T was not engaged in a healthy helping, therapeutic relationship with you due to his own lack of competence and ability and expertise. This lack of competence damaged your view of psychotherapy but please don't paint all Ts with the same brush. Your Cowboy sounds vastly more informed and experienced in what you need.

Your oldT made you feel like you were to blame for HIS shortcomings. So of course you tried to fix it all and make it okay. You worked so hard to make the relationship a success like you did as a child because (of course) you wanted him to love you and accept you and be there for you. But it was not you it was him.

A good, boundaried, expereienced T will make this experience a good and healing one. You just have to give it a chance. Commit yourself to weekly visits for 3 months. Then re-evaluate the situation. In the meantime I think you focus on establishing the relationship and building the safety and trust. And you should definitely talk to him about your unhappy experiences with your other T. He needs to know and you NEED to talk about it and hear from another professional what was really going on. And that it was his responsibility to make the relationship work. You did your part. He did not do his.

Please keep updating us the the Cowboy T. I like him and feel somewhat assured that you are in good hands (my final endorsement is still on hold )

Hugs
TN

Beebers,

I agree with TN. Give it a go - yes, you could still go back to old T, but you felt so much confusion and unhappiness in your relationship with old T, that seemed to override the positive things that you got out of working with him.

Be open with Cowboy T about why you have been looking at other Ts, he will understand - maybe he needs a bit of feedback too

But I do really like the sound of him BB

starfishy

Thank you Yaku, STRMS, Liese, TN and starfish for the amazing support.

TN:

quote:

And you should definitely talk to him about your unhappy experiences with your other T. He needs to know and you NEED to talk about it and hear from another professional what was really going on. And that it was his responsibility to make the relationship work. You did your part. He did not do his.

IDK, TN...I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't want to go there. My T (can't stop still call him that, can't completely throw in the towel yet, until I am certain he is not going to respond to my last mail, until I am certain that he really has given up on me) would say that only he gives clients the opportunity to discuss whatever they want to "in the moment" because as he would say "that is where the energy is." And one can only heal "in this present moment." Maybe I was supposed to pick up from that kind of thing, not defensiveness of his position, but the idea that it is coming from me not him, not wanting to talk about stuff like that- arg, idk. Maybe I just needed plain language from him, and maybe that is what the whole problem was. Like if he had just said..."of course we can talk about it! Tell me how it feels!" I tried telling him I needed him to be really explicit with me, talk to me like he would a small, rather dull child. He would just take that as me downing myself and my intellect, which is not how I meant it, I was truly serious in the request. Nothing worked. Whatever...Mr. Hocus-Pocus profound T. A large part of me thinks his way is the *only* way. Guess he became a guru of sorts to me. Come, BB to the mountain of DR. ***** and receive the wisdom I will impart to you by requiring nothing from you and being nothing to you..and we will sit in an existential void together and produce meaning. I shall be your T and you shall be my...paycheck? yes, o great T. That's how it was for like...two years. Why did I do that to myself?

I can't talk about the good stuff I like about Cowboy T because a small part of me is totally convinced that guru T is reading here, even though rational me knows fully well, that is ridiculous- and I'm scared that if he ever did, it would convince him to never respond to that last email, and the last shred of hope that T really did care and want to work with me as he said he did, and everything he said about caring about me, and him helping me get better, and wanting to help me- will be a lie. There I said it, right here on OF. That's why I can't say much about Cowboy, that and it freaks me out that I will be inexhorably drawn into building the T relationship up into something in my head that it is not if I talk about the stuff I appreciate about him so far. Does that make any sense? So if Cowboy can be like Jones' T, and:

quote:

Often I come away from Manatee and build things up in my head between sessions - then when I go back there he's just a guy.

I like this. When I would see Dr. ***** it would be such a jolt to my system, gosh he was never ever "just a guy." He was like...idk, how must an infant feel when daddy looks at them...this giant person..I think I like "just a guy." Maybe I could talk to "just a guy."

Yaku said:

quote:

I hope you will learn, over time, that it is safe to trust Cowboy T enough to notice and tell him when there are issues between you. I know you say your Old T said the same, but in the end he didn't seem to "hear" them or was unresponsive.

Yeah...except there was something about it I was doing wrong, I am not sure what but I know there was- and so it didn't work. I'll just do the same mistake with this T. So I'll try to keep it all about me, and not do any of that stuff...unless Cowboy invites that kind of thing, then I guess I would have to.

Thanks so much for helping me guys, I am not sure where to go from here. If I am supposed to contact my T again or not, or what. Cowboy asked me in the first session "you mean you are thinking of firing your therapist?" and I said erm...yeah I guess I am thinking of it. He said..just- "that's ok, it happens." I said my T messed my head...and he just said that he couldn't comment really on that, since he doesn't know what happened. And then, ever since it has been just...about me. I hate that I keep crying int here. It sucks totally to be that vulnerable in front of someone I barely know. I don't even know why the heck I keep crying every stinking session, all three of them, and the one interview with OAT, too. and with my SD. arg. I was seriously hoping to keep some of that stuff hidden, it really stinks to be unable to control it. Why do tears come pouring out when I have to talk to relative strangers about me...it is awful. Like not wanting anyone to know that you are embarrassed but you just keep blushing beet red so everyone knows. sheesh. I hate that. It's like waving a flag around and yelling: "look!look! over here! check it out! I'm the person with the victim mentality! Quick! Give me some sympathy! I need a fix!" ****ing tears.

sorry so much editing...

Hey Beebles!

I'm so, so proud of you and impressed that you have been making and keeping regular appointments with Cowboy T. I know how far you've come to be able to do this, and I know that you're doing it in spite of deep feelings of pain, reluctance, ambivalence, mistrust - all of which make a great
deal of sense in light of your experiences as a kid, even, let alone your experiences with your other T. So I see this as pure courage. I know you don't see it like that but you can't stop me seeing it like that!!

quote:

quote:
And you should definitely talk to him about your unhappy experiences with your other T. He needs to know and you NEED to talk about it and hear from another professional what was really going on. And that it was his responsibility to make the relationship work. You did your part. He did not do his.


IDK, TN...I kinda get the feeling that he just doesn't want to go there.

quote:

I said my T messed my head...and he just said that he couldn't comment really on that, since he doesn't know what happened.

I don't know what Cowboy T is like, but I just want to say there's some stuff with Manatee where yeah, he doesn't really dive straight into the most emotional stuff right away. Often when I've trusted him on that things have opened up later in their own good time, when I'm more ready to handle them and the relationship is more ready to handle them. And there's not that feeling of whiplash afterwards, you know? But it's a fine line. I think TN is totally right that it is okay to talk about this, that Cowboy is probably safe to talk about it, and that it is something you could really use proper professional support on. Especially seeing as you are unsure about where to turn right now with contacting Guru T. But Cowboy's response suggests to me that he knows it's something that would take time and background to talk about, not that it is something that's verboten. Maybe it's something to bring up and mark out at the beginning of the session. You might say you have something you'd like to discuss and get his advice on, but it will be hard for you to talk about. I used this strategy a lot with Manatee and he was great - would take the reins a bit more when I did that. And every time I got stuck for what to say with it I would go 'uh, sorry, this is really hard to articulate, I don't know how to put words to it' and he would help me out a bit more.

At the same time, I also think it's really clear you are already doing valuable work with him, and that talking about *yourself* is an enormously healthy thing to be doing. That is where the pain resides, in you and in your life, and working directly with that can only be healthy. It may be part of the healing that you need, to get the focus back on you, rather than on the other. So I can only see this as a win-win at the moment, whether you decide to bring up guru T directly or just keep going as you are.

Sometimes Beebs I think that the Skype thing really did you no favors at all - that just the screen element helped to transform your T into that Guru, and put you in that infant space. There were other ways he played into it too, but that's part of it I'm sure. I'm really, really glad Cowboy is three-dimensional. Definitely he is just a guy. And if he's not pulling the charisma stuff on you already he's probably not going to, which makes you safer.

I don't know what it will be like for you, but I think it's normal and ok that the building-the-relationship-up happens. It's not a crime, it's just the way human minds and feelings are. We do transference, all of us, very regularly. Good Ts might encourage you into that transferential space, or they might not, but I don't think any good T will judge you or punish you for being in it. And if they do you know they have a problem. When I am there Manatee just kind of continues to be his just-a-guy self, and reminds me of it, so that I know he's not all-powerful. So I told him about a dream I had of him once where he said some great stuff, and he said 'wow! I'm jealous of that guy! I wouldn't have known to say those things!' It wasn't a rejection of my transference, but it wasn't an endorsement of that fantasy either. Just a guy. At the same time he's a very trustworthy, committed and skilled therapist, but that never really gets blown up into anything more than someone trying to do their best at their job.

Well, I just want to say cherish your tears my dear. You are alive, you have rich and powerful feelings, you are expressing yourself, these are gifts. Victim mentality schmictim mentality. Just allow yourself to be yourself. You don't have to be made of stone.

Love,
Jones

BB such torment in your post! Gosh, what you must be going through. I am so sorry you are having such pain right now. No advice from me but lots of hugs ok?

Thanks you so much Jones and Smiley. Thanks for the great advice, Jones- I will at least try that, but at this point I have to say that I am unprepared to take any risks at all in his office and just sit there like a lump, pretty much, letting him do a lot of the talking. But- and this is pretty miraculous- I *do* talk. I talk a fair bit, and I do not know how, or why, but it is just *ok.* I am able to do it, though it makes me feel pretty disgusted with myself- simply because he engages with me, and wants to know, really, and wants to help. and...I remember stuff. I really do. I used to just blank everything out with guru T.

I have an appointment with Cowboy T tomorrow, and I'm trying very hard not to build it up in my head as I used to do with Guru T. I think Jones you are right about the screen element.telephone counseling element causing a deeper transference or feeling of deep unreachable need to be real, to matter- to be an actual person who can receive actual human care and isn't totally untouchable. Again- another re-enactment probably, as I think I always experienced my parents growing up as from behind a wall I couldn't breach, or if it was ever breached, it was I guess, just for somebody to get something they needed. Hooray for internet phone therapy. (any of you T's reading out there- I just want you to know that I, BB, personally think it is irresponsible and extremely insensitive of you to offer this kind of therapy. Sure it might line your wallet a little more, but you *will* cause damage to clients with deeper issues whether it helps "some" or not)If T's do this, they should outline for the client very carefully what they may be getting into- and offer the therapy at a reduced rate since it cannot possibly be very effective. haha. gosh I hope no T's read here!! They will be getting out their voo-doo dolls.

I'd like to write out here some of the things that Cowboy has said and done that made me think he's a good T. This is really hard to do, because I feel *so* much like I am betraying guru T. I'm remembering more things Cowboy said that I liked.. he told me that it makes sense to him that with depression, it is anger turned inwards, you can either get really angry at others and be lashing out all the time, or you can just kind of "implode." his word.. I said "yeah, that's what they say..." Instead of just grunting or saying "mmmmm hmmmm...?" -he confronted me...I like that he confronts me, makes me say what I'm thinking...so he asked.."who says that, BB?" I said "...erm...I dunno, shrinks I guess...*my* shrink said that... (cough, cough)"

He just laughed and said..."Oh- well, I don't *care* what 'they say' -This is what *I* say." I can't explain it, but- it had the effect of making me able to trust him a bit more...it was joking but serious..I guess it was just kinda disarming. I laughed and then I was better able to accept what he was getting at.

He also really nailed something from my past, when he asked me about my family/school history. He said he thought about it after I left (!) and said I was treated like I had leprosy, and was an outcast. He said it was "enormously degrading." It made me feel less messed up for being messed up, if that makes sense. It made me cry which was *awful* and he asked what is going on for me, *which was awful* and I said *it's sad* which was awful...and he said "yeah" in this really approving tone of voice, which was *awful* -but all in all, I think that is probably what therapy is supposed to look like. He followed up with me the next week, asking if there was anything left over that I still need to discuss...I asked him what we had talked about- cause I needed my memory jogged since I get a bit spacy at times- and he remembered *all* of it. (!!!!!!!) Guru rarely remembered anything we talked about, or he specifically and purposefully wouldn't tell me if he did. I was supposed to lead the sessions. (cause he did not have time to be reading his notes or doing his homework on clients, if you ask me ) I asked him..."so- what now-" He told me that he wants to leave me with it and ask me to just think about it this week.

The first time when I told him a lot of stuff, and I found myself kind of frantically realizing that...there is no way that I can present this to him as "just a normal, loving family with a few issues." I mean- I would have had to leave out, basically everything..to do that. As it was I left out enough. It was kind of a light bulb moment...arg- it's kinda peicemeal, hard to recall and put down. But I guess- he's good. He told me I didn't deserve that stuff. He said nobody does. He worked on trying to allow me to feel angry about it a bit, but I just couldn't- he explained how anger is right when it is justified, and gave me some examples from scriptures which let me know it's ok to be angry- but I just didn't feel angry, and he said- that is ok, BB, if you can't feel angry, then please just let *me* feel angry about it for you this week." I think he is nice. I told him I don't *think* I ever had a conversation like that with my T in two years of therapy, (but maybe I did) and he asked "how do you like it?" I said I am not sure- and he said "well, you think about it and let me know." Then he said...so when do you want an appointment again? Is next week ok?" (cause I had asked him if it was ok to have weekly appointments the first time he asked about appoinments) He scheduled it, and walked me to the door, as he has done each time so far. Then he said.."I enjoy you, BB- you are doing good work in here.." He patted my shoulder. eeps. It's kinda weird that he would do that, but it is also nice to know that I'm not untouchable.
And truth be told, unless I hear back from guru T, whom I still long to work things out with- at least I will not be shopping for a therapist anymore.

I'm always so impressed with you guys who can remember your sessions from start to finish, and write so much of them down- and I love reading about them.

Thanks for reading...

Love,

BB

quote:

.."I enjoy you, BB- you are doing good work in here.."

Beebs....if I didn't know better I would think you are seeing MY wonderful T!

But basically this just tells me that you are seeing a really good T. You told us so much in this post of yours. First that he REMEMBERS your sessions which is a huge thing. Also, that he UNDERSTANDS what you are struggling with to the point that he really gets it and can even sort of anticipate what is going on in your head and he is not afraid to talk to you about it. He challenges you. And you are responding! Hooray for you, girl! He is also "bantering" with you, Beebs, which is a sign of him really wanting to know you and getting to know you.

The other thing that strikes me is that even when you think you don't feel much like it he is making you smile and laugh. That tells him you have a healthy core. That he can reach into you to your innate sense of humor and your ability to see things in a certain way.

And he does have good things to say, insightful things. He does not just hurmph, and ummmm, hmmmmm. He TALKS to you and I'll bet he teaches you too. And he encourages you to talk to HIM. He cares about what you are thinking. And you are a smart cookie and you will learn a lot from this cowboyT.

He gives you things to think about. He wants to be angry on your behalf until you can reach down and feel your own anger at your childhood. And he is matter of fact about scheduling your next appointment. No wavering, no angst, no putting you off for weeks. You need a weekly appointment. You get it. No issues, no questions. No feeling like he is doing you some enormous favor. Just the basic T-patient commitment. He is THERE for you Beebs in a way that is so new and unusual for you it's hard to take it all in but it's really just the foundation for doing therapy. Something your old psudo-guru T could not comprehend.

I am excited beyond words for you Beebs to have found someone so good. I cannot wait to hear about how your session goes tomorrow.

Mark my words, Beebs... you keep going to Cowboy T and you keep talking to him and in a few months you won't even care about that email that your old T never responded to. You will be feeling so much better.

Hugs
TN

There are many things in there that remind me of my own T and I'm glad to hear of the positive things you shared, BB. I am not able to post much right now, because I'm in a bit of a bad spot, but wanted to chime in agreement with your T that you're doing good work, my dear! (((hugs)))

BB,

I am liking this Cowboy T. He says a lot of things that make sense. I like that he is able to see the significance in particular events from your past.

I know you are still holding onto the idea of working things out with Guru T, but I think in the meantime, you've got yourself a pretty darned good T in Cowboy T.

Thank you so much for reading guys, and for your helpful comments. Thanks for saying you like the sound of Cowboy T, TN,Yaku, and LG.

After today's session I'm kind of feeling like I may as well go back to Guru T and work out my issues with him, if he's have me. Arg, I can't explain it, which makes me nuts- really it does. It just seems that my "issues" are going to crop up in any therapy, (or course) and make therapy impossible. Like I just can't function therapeutically for some reason.

Cowboy started off the session by chatting about a lot of stuff for what seemed like a very long time. I can't remember at all what we were chatting about, it is a blur. I was waiting for him to ask me...the dreaded question...what do you want to talk about today. So he said "is there anything left over from last week that you would like to talk about?" And I (eventually) said that I can't really say, erm, I'm not really sure why I am here. I asked if that was ok...So Cowboy talked about that being ok, that it doesn't bother him why would I thinks so...so I said my T used to get really upset when I didn't knwo why I was there or what to talk about....Cowboy said he could understand that would be frustrating for my T to deal with.. have I ever known someone who kept people at arm's length all the while asking for connection? I said I think I am that person. Is that bad...and he just siad it's not bad if you are happy like that, but it's bad if you are unhappy like that. He talked about relational fear and anger being a cover...and stuff. He talked for a long time about reasons he has terminated clients before...like for threatening his life, and for never coming to appointments. I am not sure why he talked about it for a long time I was getting a bit spacy, I suppose, although for some reason I was trying to force myself to stay engaged. I don't want to be the bad client with him, already. sheesh.

He said as I left some joke about are you going to fire me...and he said something jokey at the door about firing me...then he kind of rubbed my arm and said, "is it ok with you that I joke around like that?" And I said yeah, it is ok, and he said "seriously if that were ever to happen, we would have a very long conversation about it, and why..., but I don't see it happening because you want to do the work." and I left. And now I'm thinking, just as I used to do with my T... that I'd damn well better want to do the work, or I will be left on my own dealing with...*what??* What am I dealing with? I'm very confused and very scared and hurting right now. I hate how ambivalent I am, I want to care, but it seems all I care about is getting a little bit of care and direction, anyways, so therapy is not for me. I think I am alone with it guys, but I think I gotta keep going and try to be...a hard worker..try to engage. I think that is it, *I* really have to change.

It's good to have clarity from a T at least...you know? That there is some kind of response to my ambivalence, avoidance, whatever it is. Now how to get motivated? Self motivated? It's the same thing again. I knew it would be.

I think I need to just listen to him, maybe, and try to change, try against all of it to engage?

BB

Hello Beebs love,

quote:

After today's session I'm kind of feeling like I may as well go back to Guru T and work out my issues with him, if he's have me.

Well, I certainly can't stop you from going back to GuruT, if that's really what you want to do. But you know what? Right or wrong, if I could, I would!! Give CowboyT a little more time, honey, okay? You've only seen him a handful of times. Give him at least as much of a chance as you gave GuruT.

quote:

It just seems that my "issues" are going to crop up in any therapy, (or course) and make therapy impossible.

Yes, it's true that your issues are going to follow you no matter who you do therapy with. That's actually true for all of us. Wherever we go...there we are...right? But Beebs, your issues do NOT make therapy impossible!! Regardless of how it feels right now, you did NOT mess things up with GuruT. IMO you actually OUTGREW him. Eventually you will see that...but just trust it for now. Trust all the people here who can already see it. OK?

quote:

Like I just can't function therapeutically for some reason.

What does it mean to "function therapeutically" anyway?? I'm not sure if I've ever accomplished that, either. If there's anything I think you are doing "wrong", I think you are trying too HARD, my dear. Just relax and let CowboyT BE the T. He wants to. Let him!

As for your part, it's just to be as "you" as you can be, whatever that means. Let him give you the space to get to know yourself, BEFORE trying to accomplish or change anything.

quote:

and he said "seriously if that were ever to happen, we would have a very long conversation about it, and why..., but I don't see it happening because you want to do the work." and I left. And now I'm thinking, just as I used to do with my T... that I'd damn well better want to do the work, or I will be left on my own

I think it is interesting how CowboyT tried to reassure you with "you want to do the work" and you heard it as you'd "damn well better want to do the work" or you'll be abandoned.

Beebs, sweetie, I may be going out on a limb here, but I really don't think he meant it as a threat. It might be helpful, though, to talk to him about how you perceived it as a threat, and where that's "really" coming from, you know?

And I do NOT mean any of this as you are "doing therapy wrong" Beebs...actually I think this guy sounds really good for you...it sounds like he really is wanting to be there for you...so it sounds like it will be really possible for you to see that there is no need to prove anything to him, no need to be anything more than the wonderful, beautiful Beebs that you ALREADY ARE.

Arg...I just wish I could give you a long, warm, safe hug and ruffle those little chin feathers.

Love,
SG

Hi Beebs, thanks for sharing this session with us.

Well, maybe you are pulling back a little huh? Because you felt too good, too satisfied with the session before this? It's okay you know. It's okay to just show up and be who are are at the moment. There is really no trick to doing therapy, just talking and letting the relationship build slowly.

I agree with SG... when Cowboy T said you are wanting to do the work he was commenting on what he observed from you... it was not a threat that if you didn't work hard he would terminate you. He was trying to reassure you. In the beginning sessions with my T we spoke constantly about termination, why, what for, how, when etc. You remember he told me the story of the guy who held him at gunpoint and then there was the woman who broke the dish in his office... just smashed it out of anger and ruined the table finish too. She replaced the dish. She was not terminated. Neither the guy with the gun. In fact, my T has a little statue on his shelf, a gift from the guy with the gun. He told me all of that to make me feel more secure about not being terminated. He knew that was the main thing in my head. That if I allowed him to know me or if I acted with him like I did with old T I would be banished like before. I was so frozen w/grief and fear I could not do any work until ... well until many months passed. Mainly I cried about oldT and was angry that my T was not oldT. And I kept asking him why why why did I get terminated?

But in between that he asked me a lot of questions and he talked a lot. He was working to put me at ease. He was getting to know me so that when I WAS ready to do therapy he could be most effective. He would try things with me and when he didn't get a response he would cast that aside and try something else. This is what I really feel that Cowboy T is doing. All you have to do Beebs is just keep showing up. Just keep going every week. It is a slow process but it will start to have a positive impact on you.

I also think, like with me and oldT, you felt you had to control and run the sessions with your oldT. That it was YOUR responsibility somehow to go in each week with a set agenda. I used to do that and now..well there are times I need to say something specific but other times I just go in and talk. Sometimes I need to return to something from last week. Sometimes I ask him questions. Sometimes I just tell him I feel blocked and we go from there. He ALWAYS gets me talking about something.

I still like the sound of CowboyT and I would really hate to see you even consider the thought of going back to old pseudo guru T.

Hang in there Beebs. You are doing the work you just cannot see it.

Hugs
TN

PS.... of course your issues are going to crop up in therapy LOL... that is why you are in therapy so they CAN crop up... they are supposed to!! You are perfectly able to do this Beebs. Believe it. There is nothing about you that makes therapy impossible... that is the impression your oldT left with you because HE was incapable and incompetent.

Thank you TN, and SG...but-I just can't remember why I left therapy with guru T anymore. It seemslike he was not worse than this guy is...it was *me.* I was the problem and I can't leave *me* at the door when I go into the session. Unfortunately.
Cowboy was asking me about what I thought about this week. I couldn't tell him that I was thinking about...how freaked out I am that he was nice to me. How wrong I feel for liking that he was nice to me. How much I want him to be nice to me, without having to do anything to earn it. How utterly creepy I feel for wanting that from some dude I've seen like three times. How feeling creepy about wanting that makes me in fact *not* want it. I *hate* the way I am. I'm not in therapy to "work on my issues." I'm just there because I have *no* idea what else to do since I am not happy with my life and with the way I cope and with the person I am.

***trigger*** Cowboy was asking me today if I would tell him if I felt like SU. I have *no* idea where that came from or why he would ask it. I said no, I wouldn't tell him. He asked why not. I said because he would call police. He said that is true and so should you, if you felt like that, or go to hospital. I said well, it's moot cause I would never do that. He said "How do I know you are telling me the truth?" I said "you don't. but I wouldn't. but I won't say the thought hasn't ever crossed my mind." He said it has probably for all of us. It was just weird, out of the blue convo...why would he think I am SU? It is strange.

He also asked what would happen if I were to tell him what was on my mind. He wanted to know what I was scared of. He explained about it being "relational fear" not fear of monsters in the closet saying boo or something. So that made sense, and I realized I was afraid at that point. I finally told him that I was afraid that if I let him know how messed up I really am ( I didn't mention the attachment issues) then he would not want to help me, and I would be left on my own dealing with whatever. I don't know why that should bother me already. He said "would it be not wanting to help you, if we bumped into stuff and I had to refer you somewhere else, as if to a specialist, if there was stuff I didn't know how to deal with, as long as I told you- and you could still come here and connect if you wanted to" I said no, that would be helping.. he also said "Why would you take that decision away from me?" Now I am thinking about that...and it makes sense. That I must be maintaining control in relationships by keeping my cards hidden! aha! ding, ding, ding... But..it feels *so* not ok or appropriate to tell what is in my head, and I get jumbled thinking about it. I told him about baring my soul to my T and...that didn't work out very well.But knowing why I do it...that helps.

But I guess, SG, and TN, that you are right, and I should just stick it out a bit longer cause Cowboy is making me think about some things. I do really like how he makes me think, and try to come up with the answers on stuff going on inside. Now if I can learn to talk and express what I think about, not just in writing- that would be good, but *that* is the hard part.

Thank you for being so sweet to me. I am really freaked out about therapy. I do think it was my fault that things with my T didn't work out very well. I just am not sure exactly what I did wrong. I think it has to do with..displaying the wrong cards, (i.e. negative and positive feelings about my T that constantly fluctuated) and keeping the right cards (stuff about me and my life) hidden. I just didn't know how to talk about those. I didn't try hard enough.

Oh, Cowboy also said something about..T's who fire clients...by just not being willing to schedule appointments, or not making a consistent time for them. Ouch. Wow, that hit home, and I was kind of amazed he said that. Clearly he has a dislike for avoidance, and I do appreciate that. He will have no problem challenging me, that is for sure. It is going to hurt like hell, I don't like being challenged cause I already know that I'm bad in lots of ways..think wrong and stuff. But...better that than sitting in an existential void. I guess..maybe I *do* wnat to change. Maybe I do want to do the work. Maybe he is right about that. I hope so. My T really made me doubt that somehow. I don't know how.

Isn't there a way to do this without actually *liking* the T and wanting to please them? That was always the biggest problem. That I wanted to please guru. It was something he seemed to think, meant I could not do therapy. That is what I mean by, not being able to function therapeutically, SG. That therapy was just about wanting to please my T, where I couldn't figure out what I need or want. Except a hug, or a smile of course, which...is not kosher, according to my T, to only want that.

Arg!

xoxox,

BB

Beebs, honey...liking the T and wanting to please them is not a "problem", it says something about you and is a very important part of what you are there to discover! Your last T couldn't handle it...but it sounds like you may very well have found one who knows how to engage "with" you (as opposed to making you struggle alone in the silent "existential void" ).

Sorry...but I remember your descriptions of GuruT...and CowboyT sounds VASTLY different. Even more than that...despite the ongoing pain of the end of therapy with GuruT (which I totally understand BTW), I do hear you responding VERY differently to this T.

Being so incredulous that he's nice to you...Beebs, that's really important. There are usually many things you say that I can really relate to, and this is one of them. When a guy is nice to me, I totally freak...and at the same time, I look SO forward to seeing that guy again...it's like I'm starving, and I've been given a bean...it's just a bean, but it tastes so good, because I'm so hungry...so at the same time I'm hungry for another one, I'm ashamed of being hungry at all...but the thing is, you were made for connection, Beebs...I'm GLAD you are still alive enough to feel that hunger...because it really means there is still hope for healing...I'd be really worried if you were feeling nothing at all.

I really like how he's asking you lots of questions...kind of feeling around for where "you" are...and allowing you to be there with him...oh, Beebs, I just continue to feel really good about this guy. It's always your decision, of course...but obviously I really encourage you to keep seeing CowboyT. Those voices in your head telling you that you did something wrong, that you're going to do something wrong now...they're lying to you. Don't listen to them. Listen to us. Listen to CowboyT.

Okay I will stop now. Sorry if I'm being too pushy, Beebs, if I am you can tell me to go take a hike. But I do love you.

Sending many hugs to you...
SG

Dearest Beebs -

Just a very quick one as I'm supposed to be doing some other stuff - I just want to say three things:

1) I too feel very positive about everything you've said about Cowboy T, and I'm so glad you are continuing to see him
2)Yes, Guru T was definitely worse than this guy. You could not get consistent appointments with him despite baring your soul that that was really what you needed. Whatever the reasons for that, for someone in your situation this is a cruel situation to be placed in. And needing regular appointments is not some fault of yours, it's a basic client right.
3) Do you know about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs/Theory of Motivation? Don't have much time to explain, but have a look here:
Maslow's Needs Hierarchy
Basically, the idea is that people can only reach out for higher-order stuff (like self-development) when the lower order of needs are met (like the need to give and receive love). Maybe that will help to explain some of how you feel like you are really reaching for contact and warmth when you go to therapy. There is nothing wrong with that. The other stuff will come if and when those basic needs are met. Same for you as for all of us.

love,
Jones

BB - I like the sound of CowboyT. He sounds gentle and caring and definately challenging for you. I'd give him some time. (())

Cowboy T sounds like a good find. I am glad to hear you are still seeing him.

((((BB)))))

I just want to add here BB that it takes two to tango. I hear you beating yourself up for not being able to make things work with GuruT, for not showing the right cards. It has taken me a long time to feel really comfortable and at home with my T. But you know what? It was never a problem for him. He always said that we're working on it, we're working on figuring out why I'm so uncomfortable with him, and it takes as long as it takes. I used to ask myself if it's him, if I need a new T or if it was me. But the truth was I ran from every therapist I saw, hit walls with them, am not very comfortable talking with anyone ... so I came to the conclusion that if he was willing to stick it out with me, and not get offended or take it personally that I wasn't trusting faster or opening up faster, then I needed to stick this one out.

And, for some reason, maybe GuruT felt as though you were stuck. But see the difference is that he couldn't, didn't have the skills, the knowledge, whatever, to help you get unstuck. He was completely and totally ineffective in that regard. He seemed unable to help you. I don't want to bash him because I know you still love him. But please don't bash yourself. You're a human being with emotional needs like everybody else.

Beebs, and as far as the positive feelings go, I know how torturous those feelings are, especially when they go unmet - as in your case. I've been seeking approval from my T throughout my entire relationship and knew it but felt as though it was something I had to get rid of, that that was an actual goal of therapy. A very wise person said to me, but it's where you are at, it's how you are, and you need his approval, so what? And I went back that next week and told him, your approval is very important to me. I really thought he was going to say, we need to work on that, we need to get rid of that. But all he said was, there is nothing you can do that would make me disapprove of you. It was so simple and it touched me so deeply. Here I was fighting it all this time, fighting that need, trying to cut it out, get rid of it. And he met it. It made such a huge difference.

And so BB, what I'm trying to say is try not to beat yourself up to much over having needs. We all have them.

They do say that we are willing to do the work when we are in enough pain. And, from the sounds of it BB, you are in enough (too much, IMO) pain and wanting to do the work will follow because it just will, you don't see any other way out and so you will want to do the work. I can't tell you how many times on my journey have I said, I can't go on, it hurts too much. But then I said, but I can't go back, because that hurts even more. It's not an easy journey. But you are out of options and so the willingness and desire will come along naturally.

CowboyT sounds like he's a very serious and dedicated T who wants to do the work with you. I can see why you would freak out over some of the things he has said because I would have had similar reactions, especially all the termination talk, etc., the questions about SU. But why not ask him why he brought that stuff up? Why not ask him what types of things he can't handle so that you will have a better idea now as to whether or not he can help you? Why wait to find out that he can't handle whatever type problem you have? Get that clarity now so he can hopefully give you the reassurance that you need. My guess is that he will give you the reassurance you are looking for because from the way you describe him, he sounds very on top of his game. I've had to ask my T and get reassurance one million times about termination, etc., and what about this scenario and are you sure you can help someone like me, have you helped people like me before. It's what I needed to go forward in the relationship.

xoxo

Liese

oh god, another serious case of pad. I'm the ultimate thread killer!! someone please help now. I hate killing all these threads!

Liese,

I'll take over the mantle of thread killer!

BB,

Been following your progress, just too much going on in my brain to comment. I vote with the others -- CowboyT is the T for you at this moment. Reading your posts, I get the sense there is a connection forming. Keep giving him the chance to show up for you.

(((Liese))) FWIW I don't think you killed this thread at all. I really liked what you said, especially how you encouraged Beebs not to beat herself up about having needs. I actually thought you said what I was trying to say a whole lot better.

PAD, begone!!

SG

Haha, no Liese- I assure you I really appreciate your reply, and all the others here, too! I simply haven't had time to come back here and read, and form a coherent response because it's been a very busy week. I'm sorry my delay made you feel bad!

I'll be back to respond later. ((((Hugs))))

BB

BB, I don't know you're whole history. However it does sound like Cowboy is on the right track with you. I want to tell you in particular the part where he asked you what if he referred you to someone else but you could still come back and connect. Several months ago I started with a male T. It was a very bad time for me. I projected with him very much because of a horrible transference situation with another therapist. Right I away I was connected to him, attached, in love and terrified he would abandon me. He said I won't leave this relationship until the therapeutic plan is met and then I'll still be here for you. One month later, he wasn't sure that he could help me so he said we were taking a break. He wanted me to see a female colleague of his to work through some things. He said then I would come back to him. I can't tell you how devastated I was I tremble just thinking about it. He said I am not abandoning you. I am concerned about you, I prayed about this and this is what we're going to do. It's been three months seeing the female colleague and I seen great progress. So much that she says now I can go back to him. It can work that way with a good T. They can refer you and bring you back. Your Cowboy sounds alot like my J. I haven't decided if I'm going to go back to him because I'm scared that I' with him. I sorting things out. I also want to tell you that you are not responsible for the failed therapeutic relationship whether you broke boundaries or whatever. He was supposed to be there for you and there with clear boundaries, etc. I hope you'll find out what I recently discovered I am not the horrible person I have always believed I was. Either are you..

Liese, I really liked what you said. You all inspired me tonight.

((BB)) i really like the sound of cowboy T!
i look forward to hearing more good things.

puppet

BB I too like the sound of Cowboy T – though I get why you are so freaked and dubious about it all. Hope you can get to post an update soon (me being nosey, sorry!)

I wanted to say Good For You for persevering, and letting yourself see Cowboy T without bolting straight away. Hang in there eh? ((((( Beebs )))))

LL

You aren't nosy, LL! I love it when people want to hear updates, of course, who wouldn't?
Thank you Puppet of the soon to be weekly sessions (said with English accent of course) Noble daughter Strummergirl, hemlock and Liese, and stoppers and sMiley and Jones, and everyone who keeps supporting me and helping me along here. I'm falling a bit off on my correspondence here, and I feel badly for it. It's is in strange way because I'm a bit mnore functional lately, and in a strange way, because I find it hard to talk about my feelings lately, not that I can't but that I'm pretty disconnected from them overall. Sort of a total shutdown, and functioning much better because of it, much like I used to do before I ever started therapy. I'm not sure- maybe I just really am doing better guys, and not so addicted to this place or able to take a bit more part in my life because of Cowboy T, and not ebing so stressed out about my T (whom I still think of as my real T, I suppose.)

I am confused about what I am supposed to write about here currently. I can't think of what I could possibly say or answer that might be interesting or helpful or informative to anyone.

In other news...my SD is officially departed- well still alive, but..no longer a part of my everyday life, sadly. Funny that. I don't feel much, I really don't. I feel..nothing. I don't feel sad, or happy, or much of anything about my life right now, except a wee bit of panicky at times about my parenting.

It's kinda weird...can I really be so totally ok? Can I really need absoultely nothing, and be find and dandy? I feel like...sorta just find and dandy. I get a glimpse of some deepy buried junk every so often...but it goes away very quickly. I just don't know. about this therapy thing. Maybe I'm just personality challenged, and have no interest in life. Maybe I'm just basically an apathetic person with no passion who cares very little for anything.

It's confusing. Did I just make all that depression stuff up, as an excuse to get to see my T, and in reality nothing is wrong? My H keeps commenting on how much better I am doing. thing is..I don't really care. I just *want* to care.

But I'm ok. Like *totally* ok. It's very weird.

So there is my update. I will see Cowboy T on thursday. I had a dentist appointment (!- see what I mean- like- totally ok...making appointments and everything!) weird because it almost feels like punishing myself by being toally ok, if that could *possibly* make any sense at all. I don't get it. Soemthing is not right I think- but I don't know what. anyway- and so I had to send him an email from his appointment scheduling service asking for a different time. It was like...no big deal, guys. I had an email in my inbox *the next morning* with an alternative time already booked for me, and the request that I confirm it. So there is that level of reassurance- that it really is ok that I actually book appointments or even, I may not lose the appointment altogether should I need to cancel. So I'm..a bit incredulous about that for some reason, I guess he must have a lot open schedule slots or something. hmm.

The other thing is that, I realize that Cowboy does actually lead, direct, ask, inquire and help me to talk to him, and then get me to see things from a new angle. It's a bit hard to grasp it cause it feels like normal conversation, and I can miss the meaning behind the words in nromal convo, usually., if it's about me. But I may learn something here. Oh, with my T if I ever told him that I simply couldn't talk unless I felt he was actually interested in me, it was like he thought that was some kinda come-on or something. I couold never get it right.I wish I could. I just...

anyway...thanks again so much all you guys...you are *good people!*

Hugs,

BB

PS, I'm feeling bad that I haven't responded directly to the points that some of you guys made...I'm just finding kinda "damned if I do and damned if I don't on what I respond to right now- like *me, inside, not because of you, kwim? erm. PAD I guess. But please know that I understood and appreciated all of what you guys said...each of you big stretchy hug.

quote:

Can I really need absoultely nothing, and be find and dandy? I feel like...sorta just find and dandy. I get a glimpse of some deepy buried junk every so often...but it goes away very quickly.

This sounds a lot like how I am when I am completely numb. And it's very confusing when things come up because when it goes away so quickly I wonder, what's real? Is the numbness real or was the feeling real? I think that any bad feelings I have must have been made up because I can so quickly and easily (most of the time) go back to functioning fine and being fine. I felt that way for so long (and still often do feel that way) that I feel like maybe that's just my status quo, but the more glimpses of feeling I get, the more I know that's not the case.

The thing is, BB, that buried junk won't stay buried. For me, I often get whiplash from how quickly I can go from feeling utterly miserable to being *completely* fine. My T has told me so many times that the more times I push away the feelings (or whatever it may be), the more times it will come up and the more intense it will get. And it's true...things have come up more often. Most of the time, it seems like my extreme numbness is in reaction to the feelings I just had, kind of like compensation. It's not this structured at all, but sometimes I jokingly imagine a formula: I felt x amount of pain/feeling so I will experience y amount of numbness. It's not an exact science.

The thing that can be so healing and a step forward is to experience a glimpse of feeling while you're in session with Cowboy T. I think that, as T's office has become safer, my system is allowing more feeling there, but still limiting it elsewhere. You're not apathetic, Beebs. I told my T once that I feel like I just don't care about anything and she said, "Or you care too much." As in, what if caring so much was too much and it seems like numbness is the only way out. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do think you care deeply about many things, BB.

Anyway, I've been thinking about you. I hope your session goes well on Thursday.

a big stretchy hug back
and i hope it goes well on thursday!

puppet

So how did it go

sorry, don't mean to push you, just wondering how you're feeling about Cowboy T now, and would be really interested to hear how your session went, if you feel up to sharing. Otherwise just sending you a big hug ((((((( Beebs ))))))))

LL