(((cat)))

I struggle with this too. I feel like I've made some progress from the way I was years ago, though.

My childhood definitely involved role reversal, so I was conditioned on a very deep level to be responsible for my parents well being, and abandon my needs completely. The guilt can feel very overwhelming in present day relationships to adapt to whatever another person wants.

I had a person who was very passive aggressive, intrusive and just plain rude and I felt a similar sense of obligation to stick around with them because they always talked about "having no friends". It's hard for me not to feel sorry for them and forfeit my needs.

I guess I decided that if everyone else was also having the same problems with this person, then that person was in need of making some changes to how they treat others. And I decided that I'd rather save my energy and resources for the people who actually cared about my feelings in return.

It can be really difficult to maintain a self protective stance though

Hi Cat,

I can identify with where you are coming from. My dearest and actually my longest childhood friend is very emotionally demanding and full of drama that she brings on herself. Somehow just going to her house on the weekend to kick back and relax by the pool would turn into a drama filled day, usually with yelling at her husband and kids and her husband and kids yelling back at her, and me trying to be the peacemaker while I was there.

I guess I just realized that I couldn't handle that type of behavior or personality on a regular basis, nor did I want it. I think as we travel along this path of wellness we outgrow certain people and relationships and that is really ok.

My friend knows that I will always be here in emergencies (true emergencies, hospitalizations, illness etc) and I know just by the nature of our relationship she would be here for me too. Occassionally and on holidays we will shoot each other a text saying hi, and maybe just at random times if I am missing her, I will text her just that and leave it at that.

(((CAT)))

I'm so glad you broke off the friendship with that awful guy. Is that the one you are referring to?

quote:

We don't have a responsibility for another's happiness... But how can I stop the gnawing guilt?

I think because my mother felt left out as a child, she always made me include everyone and/or stay with the person no one else wanted to be with so I struggle with the gnawing guilt too. Not only that, at some level, we are all connected and it KILLS me to turn my back on someone because I know how disconnected I have felt and how painful it is. I don't know what the answer is except that lately I have been doing random acts of kindness. Not necessarily for people who want a relationship with me but, when I can, when I see a need and I have the ability to say a kind word or do a kind deed, I do. Getting heavily involved with someone, however, or taking on the responsibility for their happiness is just too huge a task for me to take on. Little things I can do. I have to take care of myself…no one else will. Learned that one the hard way.

It's like I tell my kids re: the cleaning the house: if only everyone would clean up after themselves, the house would be a lot cleaner.

That can be very tough with friends. It can also be pretty codpendent. You can't fix or change them. That job is theirs alone. My best advice is to identify your boundaries and then honor them. That takes the other person out of the equation so you can figure out what you need to do.

-RT

quote:

Not only that, at some level, we are all connected and it KILLS me to turn my back on someone because I know how disconnected I have felt and how painful it is.

I found this statement particularly striking because I wonder if many of us cross the line from empathy to projection. Empathy is vital for being a decent human being and for treating others how we'd like to be treated. However, I think it is too easy to ASSUME that other people feel just like us or are in the same situations for the same reasons.

For example, the toxic friend says, "I'm lonely." Ok, why? If he or she is lonely because of relationship difficulties stemming from past trauma, that's one thing. But if they're lonely because they're a selfish, insufferable a-hole, then maybe their loneliness is justified.

This is where having good boundaries is so important. You have to lay out in your mind exactly what you want from your friendships and what you're willing to do in return - and then state it aloud. Healthy relationships involve give AND take. If you're giving but never getting, you're on the road to burnout. (This is indeed a tough lesson to learn by experience.)

Keep in mind, too, that toxic people are almost always manipulative and very resistant to change. They'll say things like "I'm lonely" just to get attention and sympathy, whether it's true or not. Good boundaries will help you discern the difference. People who can't respect your boundaries are not friends. They don't want friends. They want servants.

As our T's show us, keeping good boundaries can help people change. Indulging dysfunction and bad attitudes just enables more poor behavior. So you might assuage some of your guilt by hanging out with a toxic person, but you probably aren't doing them (or yourself) any favors.

Just something to think about.

((aH)) I had a role reversal growing up also. I wonder if that contributes to it at all. I understand what you're saying about attending to your needs. I try to focus there but I will still occasionally trip in to the codependent trap of if I keep them happy then I'm happy or if they are hurt or sad I'm hurt and sad.

((GG)) I have friendships similar to you where I am there for the big stuff but the day to day life is not much what I'm in for. Many of my relationships from the past were one sided (I was the care taker, or surrogate attachment figure) and though I contributed to the dynamic, it ultimately ended badly. I sort of shot the other way and made friends who weren't all about their crap or mine (not superficial... Still great friendships just limited emotionally which is how some friendships are). Now I have some friendships that are equal - I'm not scared of their feelings and I choose better people and I'm not scared of my feelings.

((Liese)) Yes, it was that man. It ended when I had a house emergency and I asked him something (he had been there) as part of my troubleshooting and he took it as my accusing him of something and going on and on and on about his emotions and himself and meanwhile I had a literally overflowing plumbing issue to deal with. I told him I am sorry the question sounded accusing, I certainly didn't intend it and that this situation was about me and my plumbing not about him. I got some more dramatic texts and I told him I had no time to coddle him. He told me to F off, and I elected never to speak to him again. When he asked why I told him The relationship was too intense and not what I wanted/needed. Seriously, 10000lbs off me for almost a year now. I think you are so right about outgrowing people, it makes sense.

((RT)) it is codependent but a pattern I am moving out of!

(((Affinity))) sorry - cross posted. I agree with you that it is very easy to assume what others think or feel. Many of us here accuse our therapists of having feelings or thoughts or mental disorders that who knows if they do. It's the same with everyone else too... It can be maddening to assume needs or expectations and then try to meet them... it's like what I had to so to survive with my parents. It makes sense WHY it happens, since it's a survival skill but it can hurt so many things as an adult.

quote:

For example, the toxic friend says, "I'm lonely." Ok, why? If he or she is lonely because of relationship difficulties stemming from past trauma, that's one thing. But if they're lonely because they're a selfish, insufferable a-hole, then maybe their loneliness is justified.

One thing about being an insufferable a-hole as you said versus a trauma... Sometimes people are insufferable or just don't get along with others because of their trauma. Our experiences shape we we are so... I find someone with trauma being a jerk just as annoying as someone without trauma being a jerk. If it's someone I know well I can be more accommodating but still need my personal boundaries. If they are lonely and it causes neediness or suffocation it would bug me equally no matter why, unfortunately.

When I say toxic friendships I mean people toxic to me, I guess. You're right that hanging on to toxic people is definitely not good for either person. It's harder for me to leave if I know the person has trauma or mental/emotional issues but it makes things they do just as difficult on my patience. Sucks... I really hate not being there for people.

((((CAT))))

Proud of you for breaking it off with that guy.

(((CAT)))

quote:

One thing about being an insufferable a-hole as you said versus a trauma... Sometimes people are insufferable or just don't get along with others because of their trauma. Our experiences shape we we are so... I find someone with trauma being a jerk just as annoying as someone without trauma being a jerk.

I think you nailed it: a jerk is a jerk is a jerk. The effect is the same no matter the motivation behind the behavior.

I am hesitant to blame bad behavior on trauma, even if trauma is present. Some people may genuinely have trouble managing the finer points of relationships because they're hurting. But if someone is being an outright pain in the arse, it's probably because they're inclined to be a pain the arse. In other words, they're probably acting like a jerk IN SPITE OF their trauma. Lots of jerks aren't trauma survivors, and most of the survivors I've met aren't jerks. True, experiences can shape who we are, but we still get some say in the way we're shaped. (That's why we're in therapy. )

I'm glad you were able to break away from that bad relationship. It's a huge step when you can recognize toxic people and decide to put them out of your life.