(((Affinity))) I just wanted to say that you are doing some really good, tough but good, work in your therapy. These are really hard things to discuss with your T. And I love that your T is so tender and gentle when dealing with your inside kid. You're attaching, and it's normal to seek an attachment figure in the face of fear and pain. It's a sign of health, I think, though it doesn't feel so great. If you haven't been able to do that much before, it's going to be terrifying.

Do you know what your T will say regarding touch for sure? It's really hard not knowing their policy at all and having these yearnings, and being ashamed of them, and alone in that shame, because you don't feel like you can talk about it. For what it's worth, after a lot of journaling and sharing of articles, I actually found out my T was willing to incorporate touch, and it has turned out very positively in our case, but if he had said no, I know it would have been out of a sense that it was for my own good, and not from a place of judgment of those very normal, human needs (which I still regularly feel ashamed about and apologize for, so I really do get it!).

Anyway, I'm not feeling super great right now, but I read your post and wanted to at least say you're not alone in these feelings and don't have to be ashamed. Part of it might be transference related to other major figures in your life. But, part of it is just being human, finding someone who has been safe with you, and sorting out some really confusing developmental/attachment stuff that you might not be used to if you have avoided closeness with others before due to projections about your unworthiness. But, you're not unworthy. You're valuable and loved!

(((AFFINITY)))It is understandable why you are so confused and afraid right now. I've been going through a lot of these same feelings with my T, and I would skip sessions a month or more at a time because I was afraid to trust him and to become more attached to him as you are. Like you, I figured its easier to get over the attachment now then later. But our T's really do represent and give what we need fulfilled and never received. Please don't be humiliated because you need these things, your T is the one who can give it to you. I'm going through this as well, and it is very hard, and it does make for very confusing mixed feelings. I feel embarrassed at times, but I'm beginning to understand that I would not feel this way but my inner child needs this nurturing, and my adult figure at times takes over and fights to make me not want to trust and to feel embarrassed. You have to know that you are important, and you deserve to give yourself the opportunity to heal. To do this you need to keep going in the positive direction that you are, and fight hard to allow yourself to trust your T and "trust-in" your T and what he is doing to help you. He's sound wonderful and so in-tune to your needs, just let it happen, because you are "worth it".

Thank you, eme and Yaku, for your kind words.

I'm not really sure what my T's policy is on touch. I'm basing my assumption on what he would say on other conversations we've had. When I first started therapy and began experiencing transference, I asked him to promise not to touch me because the thought creeped me out and I didn't think I could handle it. Now, my feelings have changed.

I'd love to give a more in-depth response than this, but I'm massively tired and struggling to get out even this little bit. I'm supposed to see T tomorrow, so we'll see what happens. I'm hoping I'll find the courage to speak.

You guys are the best.

(((Affinity))) I know this is really painful, confusing and overwhelming right now but I think you're doing really good work.

I think as you move closer to your T, I think it is triggering memories of what relationships felt like for you as a young child and wholly dependent. It truly was life and death then, our need to stay close and we are biologically wired to move closer to get our needs met. But when we do that and get hurt, it can truly warp our perceptions of relationships and how they should work. Our needs and instincts drive us closer, but our experience says we should flee.

I had really surpressed a sense of my own needs, so much so that I actually had a panic attack once when my T asked me what I wanted. I hated my needs because they were what keep driving me to go back to my father and be betrayed and hurt over and over again. So I decided my needs were the problems. But those needs weren't the problem. The problem was how my father exploited them.

I think that you are starting to trust your T enough that those unmet needs for care, attunement, acceptance and compassion are asserting themselves. They are SO intense because that's how it felt when we were kids.

All of that talk to yourself about the relationship not being real or its just going to end, and you not knowing him? These are attempts to devalue the relationship so you do not continue on the "dangerous" path of moving closer. I don't want to lie, it is painful because as we move closer, the feelings and losses emerge, but it's worth it I think.

And wow, I have also struggled with feeling like this is just constant humiliation. But I want to ask you something. I know the feelings of humiliation are very real, but has your T ever acted in any way to deliberately humiliate you?

I realized for the first time in a recent session that I was actually ashamed of the relationship with my father. I knew I felt ashamed of what happened and what I did, but had never quite thought of it that way. My T said I was ashamed of the relationship and it shot through me. And I finally realized that I had let that sense of shame spill over on to my relationship with him. I have always felt like my love and need for my T was something illicit, that I should be embarrassed to feel. I have been trying to take in the radical thought that my early relationships tainted all of my attachment behaviors with shame and that actually, my feelings for my T, having needs, reaching out to other people are all behaviors that are GOOD things and nothing to be ashamed of. Such a completely foreign concept.

Your T sounds like a very solid one and I think you are in good hands, which I know doesn't really help the terror. And don't be too scared of hearing "no." Some of my best work has been done around no. And you are talking about a pretty complicated dynamic around touch for you so I think its important for you to examine it.

Hang in there, it will get better.

AG

Affinity, I totally agree with AG. STAY with this. I have felt exactly what you are feeling and it will try to overpower us. This is some of the transforming work that will slowly unfold and heal us.Plow through it!! Just had a similar session on Friday and will return today to continue. This is very hard on us. My T was so gentle and calm and told me he has to be cautious with me because of past boundary violations with significant others. I bet your T knows just what you're trying to work through. Sometimes they just don't say it. And....they do know how scary and painful this is. Let him help you. My T did touch me on the shoulder three times in the past and he does not remember...I do. It was pivitol for me but he is drawing the line at hugging. I want to hug him, not for him to hug me, just out of genuine gratitude. Hey, I hear California therapists hug! I've been trying to put myself in Ts position and thinking how would I deal with me. It's been very thought provoking and he thought it was a good technique.

(((AG))) My T has never deliberately humiliated me, but he did once say something on the phone near the beginning of our relationship that sounded belittling in my ears. (I can't even repeat it because of the amount of shame it provokes.) I know he probably said it to try to lighten the mood at the time, but I took it in a bad way. Every time I think about contacting him outside of session, I hear these words in my head and stop. I haven't talked to him about this because it feels like the shame might literally kill me.

(((Very Hopeful))) I don't think I could hug my T, but a handshake would be ok. I have session in just a couple of hours and I already feel like hell. This one is going to be tough.

(((Affinity))) You know what I'm going to say right? You need to talk to your T about what he said on the phone. One of the things I most definitely learned about myself in therapy (both individual and marital) was how often I assumed what the other person is feeling or thinking, without ever checking in. If this bothered you enough that you still cannot speak of it, that is indicative of a very deep wound, more than likely not one of your T's making, but evoked by his wording. And I would bet a large sum of money he did not mean it the way you heard it. Therapy provides us a safe way to look at these reactions and why we are having them.

I think this is really important because it is interfering in your therapy and your ability to use your T as a resource. I know the shame feels like it will kill you, please trust me I know. But unfortunately, it doesn't actually kill you. But I will tell you in all the times I have gone to my T with a deep sense of shame (which seriously I have lost track of at this point), unfailingly I have felt better.

Not sure if you've ever read this particular post but it might help: The Paradox of Shame - Part I (and sorry, there is a part 2 )

The only way through shame is to speak of it. What a sucky system, but its the only one we have.

I hope the session, though hard, leaves you in a better place.

AG

The only way out is through. That is why I confess the most seemingly shameful things going on inside me to my T. Otherwise, I'm stuck. But, as much as it feels like it would kill me, sharing was the only way out.

Update

I didn't know how I might talk to my T about some of this stuff, so I printed out my first post on this thread and let him read it. He was very accepting of all of my feelings, but the discussion on touch went almost exactly as I expected. It was not good. I'm devastated beyond words right now.

Affinity I am SO sorry you are feeling devastated. I really do understand.

I think it's important to clarify (with your T) if the feelings you feel for your T are that of a child needing attachment or some type of erotic transference or eroticized transference (yes, there is a difference). If you have attachment wounds, then I believe it's your inner child that is longing for the nurturing touch/contact with T. Most people with attachment injury do not tend to eroticize the transference. I ask this because I think T's are more apt to touch or feel comfortable with the use of touch if it's nurturing the inner child.

So let me ask you... do you feel like you want to crawl into T's lap and you feel small like a child? Do you long to sit as his feet as he reads you a story? Or maybe you want to color or play games or do puzzles? These are very much inner child longings.

As for the touch conversation. Oh wow do I know how badly that can go. I was seeing my T for almost a year when I brought that up (seemingly to him out of the blue) and it did not go well AT ALL. I know there are posts about it on here somewhere. It was just about a deal-breaker for me. Let me explain that my T does shake hands coming and going. He may also pat my arm once in awhile. But I wanted to explore more touch usage. I felt that I really craved it while at the same time being terrified of getting close to him. Can you say whiplash?

I approached him about firstly about hugs. He said NO ONE ON THAT SIDE OF THE ROOM TOUCHES ME. Yikes... I thought I would die on the spot. He went on to elaborate a bit and it just got worse and worse and he dug himself in deeper and deeper. He admitted to me later on that he gave me a "piss-poor" response and apologized. We have discussed the topic gingerly on and off through the years. He told me that only 2 clients ever hugged him and they were both leaving therapy and one was a GUY LOL. He is just not personally comfortable with hugging. Okay fine. I learned to accept that because, frankly, he is such a wonderful T and he means alot to me.

Fast forward... I was about to go into the hospital for a procedure and was pretty scared and anxious. He was trying to calm me and I decided to ask him if he would hold my hand for a minute so I could remember that and take it with me into the OR. I joked that he was just like shaking hands without the up and down motion LOL. He smiled and moved closer to me and held out his hand. I took his hand nervously and could not even bear to look at him. I pulled away like my hand was burning. I was scared that I held it too long. He didn't say anything but offered it again and I took it and tried to look at him. His eyes were kind and understanding and that was the most powerful moment I ever shared with him in 3.5 years. I took that feeling with me into the hospital and it did me so much good. It was way better than a hug.

I asked for his hand one other time. I was struggling with the attachment... fearful of it but yearning for the closeness of him. He willingly gave me his hand again and it was so connecting for me.

We discussed both instances and he told me that he knew me well enough to understand the child needed this contact and reassurance and he knew my needs were not sexualized in any way and he felt comfortable with the touch.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I was so devasted after our first conversation but we kept talking about it and kept working together and found another way to get through this. It was really hard at times but it was well worth it and I am SO glad I didn't allow that first "no" to destroy our relationship.

Sending hugs,
TN

Affinity... P.S. to the above post...

How long are you seeing your T?

TN

Affinity:

My heart goes out to you. I am so sorry things are difficult for you right now.

T.

(((TAS)))


(((TN))) Thanks for sharing your experience. It has helped.

I've been seeing my T for about three months now. Yeah, I know, I'm a real newbie to be in this deep. As far as the transference goes, the majority of it is little girl stuff. That was my feeling when I imagined him holding me. However, when both my pain and my warmth toward him are at their peak, it can turn erotic. So far, that only happens outside of session.

As I've said before, I'm not asking my T to hug me. I do think that would be too much touch for me. And today, my T gave perfectly valid, rational reasons for withholding touch. What is just so hurtful to me is that he does touch other clients, and while I know he's trying to protect me, his refusal to even shake my hand just reinforces my belief that I am too damaged for human contact - that no touch is safe for me. And now I'm kicking myself for being so honest and vulnerable and letting him see my wounded self, because maybe if I hadn't he'd treat me like a "normal" client.

Affinity please don't beat yourself up about being honest or open with your T. I don't know a lot about your background and your T may have his reasons. I also think that maybe he feels he just does not know you well enough. Some T's have an across the board policy which is probably better if they don't want to offer touch. I can totally understand his reaction making you feel "untouchable". I just think at this point you are not with him long enough and you may have to wait a bit before bringing up the conversation again. And yes, I know that you are saying "hell no never again" but it's important and deserves more discussion. I would definitely ask him why he feels that a businesslike handshake would be dangerous or harmful. Allow him to explain his views. Tell him it makes you feel untouchable.

All of what this topic evokes is worth discussing because you will access past feelings that need to be explored and processed. Oh and BTW, with my oldT I would verge on those erotic feelings when I was away from him but when I was with him I would just want to crawl into his lap or sit at his feet. With my current T I just have the child urges and not the erotic type ones... and that could be because I was so badly hurt by my oldT that those feelings have been suppressed as too dangerous. Jury is still out on that.

Hugs
TN

(((Affinity))) I am sorry as I also heard a "no" (but to anything but a handshake). My T has an across the board rule about no hugs. It is really painful to hear this no, but its important to keep talking about how you're feeling. I totally understand it evoking that feeling that you are untouchable, but that is NOT why your T is withholding touch. His witholding is about caring for you and doing what he believes is best for you. FWIW, a couple of years after my T told me no about hugs, and after spending a number of sessions discussing touch, I had a breakthrough session dealing with how I experienced touch outside of therapy and felt in a very deep visceral way how very important for me it was that my T did not hold me. It would have really confused me and messed with my head. That doesn't mean that I don''t ever feel longings to be held (and it can be painful to read about other people getting that from their therapist's) but I actually agree with my therapist about that boundary.

It has helped me to keep clear about what I can get out of therapy and what I can't. Even if my T had held me, it would not have made the loss of safe touch from my father disappear. But it might have covered it over. Not getting the hug from my T helped me go past him to the source of the pain and deal with my loss.

And this is so painful because it is evoking your losses, and when you did not have disruptions repaired nor were you attended to when disappointed and in pain this can feel so threatening to the relationship. But the reparative part here is that although the answer is a painful no, you are not alone in that pain. Your T can walk through it with you and allow you to express it and help comfort you through it. You did the right thing to allow him to see your wounded self, it is how you will heal. Just keep talking about all these feelings. It will get better.

And I just want to be clear that while I understand your T's answer, there is NOTHING wrong with you wanting to be held or touched. That is normal and healthy for a human being. Nor was there anything wrong with you asking; actually it was very courageous of you to do. I know that this feels like you risked opening up and just got hurt again but hang in there, this is different but it takes a while to see it. I am sorry though, I know it feels like your heart is breaking.

AG

Thank you all for the wonderful advice. I appreciate it. Really. But today it's falling on deaf ears. I'm just so hurt and angry right now. Every wound in my soul is raw and aching. I don't know how I'm going to talk to him on Friday. I may just sit and stare at the floor again. I want to cry, but my stupid body won't let me, so I've got this mountain of pain sitting hot and heavy on my chest that refuses to budge. I'm so tempted to crawl back into the dark and seal the exits so he can't see me.

((((Affinity))))

Would it help to talk to us here about how angry and hurt you are feeling and why? Maybe you need to process it somewhere you feel safe before going back to see your T. Maybe it will help you go back to see him.

I know anything we say right now will just not get through because you are so hurt and that is fine. Be kind to yourself and stay out here in the light.

Hugs
TN

I will talk about it since I have come to know this as a helpful place.

This has required some thought and there are a couple of different dynamics playing out for me in this situation, but here's at least part of my angst:

Pretty much all of my life, people have said to me, "Oh, Affinity, you are so smart and wise and special." But then they have turned around and said, "You're a little naïve, though, so I'm keeping you from X to protect you." In many cases, these things were purely innocent and things I wanted very much. A few times I resisted this 'protection,' but many times I just went along with their reasoning because their reasons seemed good.

But then I often discovered later on that this 'protection' was merely a form of control. Many of these people claiming to protect me either abused/betrayed me outright (exposing me to things I really DID need to be protected from) or simply refused to accept or respect me as a person.

Now, I know my T accepts and respects me and, at some level, even loves me. But when he says, "I'm doing this for your protection," what I really hear is, "You're a little kid who is too naïve to understand that X is bad." I can tell myself all day long that it's different this time, but it absolutely FEELS the same - especially in the face of knowing that he does this for other clients. And there's a grown woman inside of me screaming WHEN THE F**K DO I GET TO PROTECT MYSELF?? TO DECIDE FOR MYSELF?? Because if there's one thing on this planet I absolutely cannot stand, it's feeling powerless.

And I have felt powerless for a very, very long time.

Affinity,
I'm really sorry if anything I said made this harder, I do not mean to dismiss or be indifferent to the very real pain you are in.

I am very impressed that you were able to think through what is going on and connect it to your feelings of powerlessness (my very least favorite emotion, hate it even more than shame). I had a very different approach to protectiveness which was that I needed to stop protecting myself so I could feel what it was like to have BN protect me. But it sounds like the complete opposite is true for you.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like for you, by setting this boundary, your T is taking away your choice and your free will. I know that I have very strong feelings about not having any choice during the abuse, so I get why that would be so triggering.

Were you able to express any of this to your T? or is it something you came to understand after reflecting on the session? (Please tell me afterwards cause if you did this on the fly, I'm going to feel quite inadequate ). I think it's important that you talk about feeling powerless and that you do get to scream about it. It's time for you to be heard about this.

quote:

But when he says, "I'm doing this for your protection," what I really hear is, "You're a little kid who is too naïve to understand that X is bad." I can tell myself all day long that it's different this time, but it absolutely FEELS the same - especially in the face of knowing that he does this for other clients.

This is the key, because this is what trips us up on life, when we hear something so powerful from our past that we cannot hear what is going on in our present. Checking in with your T so he can tell you that he wasn't thinking you are too naive to understand is really important. The feeling may not budge for a while but the first step is to get enough space between you and your feeling to figure out whether it is a good reflection of reality here and now or not, and choose how to act on a less distorted view. Does that make any sense? I think its something we all do unconsciously, I know I did.

I do not know if your T will change his mind, but it does help to have your feelings heard and make your own decisions.

I know its not much comfort right now, but I think this is truly the deep work of therapy, allowing yourself to feel and think through your reactions to your Ts boundaries, its how we sort through our stuff and express what we need to and learn to understand why we do what we do.

I know it made a huge difference in my life when I realized that I am no longer powerless. That doesn't always mean I get what I want or can force other people to do what I want them to, but I no longer need to just grit my teeth and suffer through whatever is going on. I can make choices about where I am and what I am doing.

I'm sorry this is so hard. You deserved actual protection so your could learn to protect yourself, not a ruse to cover over being controlled.

((((AG))))

I don't think you're indifferent to my pain at all, and I haven't taken anything you've said in that way. So no worries. I really appreciate what you and TN and Very Hopeful are doing. Thank you.

I wasn't able to express any of these thoughts in session, because after he said his piece, I pretty much shut down. I spent most of the leftover time awkwardly staring at the carpet. And the internal ache was so bad that I couldn't put words to any of my feelings. All I could puzzle out (unspoken) at the time was "it's not fair." I also felt powerless, but I couldn't explain why. It took some time reflecting to get clear on the details.

I hope I can bring this up to my T on Friday. As long as I can keep that stupid shame monster at bay...

I find hitting it over the head with a large stick can be helpful.

Sorry I joke, but I know it can feel well-nigh impossible to speak when the shame monster is prowling, but try to remember that the shame is not really yours... it belongs to the people who abused you and failed to protect you. And from everything you've said, your T sounds really solid. It truly sucks, but the only solution I have found to shame is to do the exact thing its telling you not to do, which is to speak about it. But you have already proven yourself very courageous and I think you'll find the strength. I hope it goes well and please let us know!

AG

PS Thank you for the reassurance, happy to know I didn't overstep.

UPDATE #2

So, it's been a rough couple of days feeling like my T blew a hole in me with the whole touch issue - not to mention that I'm under a massive amount of stress in pretty much all areas of my life this week. I felt a little better after processing stuff here, so I decided to do a little more on my own with some journaling.

While journaling about my feeling of powerlessness, I hit upon 2 things:

1. I feel powerless because I need T, but he doesn't need me.

2. My desire for an erotic connection is my attempt to seize power and equalize the relationship.

My mouth literally dropped open on that second epiphany, because it went right to the heart of the issue I raised with my T concerning my husband. I don't well tolerate anything from my husband that looks like sexual rejection. I pretty much fall apart if ever I want sex and he doesn't. I realize now that I've been tying my personal sense of power and worth to my desirability. It feels powerful to me because it allows me to connect with a person without becoming emotionally vulnerable. And because touch is my primary love language, sex helps me feel loved even if I'm not.

I went to session today planning to talk about all of this, but I started out talking about a dream I had (about smoking a cigar in church ), and it lead to a discussion about my faith and sexuality. (Long story there.) I only got to mention Item 1 in the last five minutes. But it fit well, because my dream was also related to my sense of powerlessness, which we were able to touch on. The session was also relatively light, with lots of good humor from both sides, and his eyes showed a deep warmth for me at several points. I swear, at the very end, he seemed loathe to let me go.

(FYI, I'm really missing him right now.)

I do want to discuss what happened last session with the touch issue, but I think getting some breathing space after that sh*t storm might be a good idea. The nerve is still somewhat tender, and I've got about all the sludge I can handle at the moment. Today's session was a thankfully uplifting reprieve.

Hi Affinity

I have been so moved reading all the posts in this thread. I wonder how you are now after your last post a month ago. I can completely understand the hell you have been going through with the touch issue. Transference is so horrible and so real.

Thinking of you.

Caroola

Thanks, Caroola!

I'm doing a little better (I think) with the transference/touch issue. Transference is still way off the chart, but for the moment I've accepted that I'm not getting touch from my T. He's pretty insistent that he's not going to touch me in any physical way. However, he has this crazy ability to make me feel incredibly loved and accepted, so I've been able to keep my head about the whole issue.