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AJB,
I don't know where to start. I see so many crossfires and angles but I can't be certain I have the full disclosure on this. I mean I hear what you are saying about not having this sort of relationship with your T and I can go two ways:
1)Your T is very good at holding back and allowing you to project everything onto him and thereby force you to see and speak to your needs. OR
2) He is not attuned to you and perhaps you need to find a different T who will respond the way you need him/her to. It doesn't always work on the first try.
You need to feel heard.

I hear you still battering a lot of self blame and that tells me you're not done with therapy and
1) Your T knows that too and he is waiting for you to see the need yourself, because you're not going to beleive him that you need therapy. So he may have seemd to coldly let you walk away, but sometimes that is the quickest way to get someone's attention. OR
2) He is not attuned to you.

And maybe he didn't say "Have a nice life" because he knew you'd be back when you were ready. OR....
(I think you get the picture) Smiler

As for referring anyone you know to your T...while it is a fabulous gesture to recommend your T I have one rule for myslef because of the feelings you aptly descibed as did someone else a little while ago....
...... I don't share my T with anyone!!!! Not my husband, not my children, not my friends, and certainly NOT my FOO!

AJB,You are not a crazy person, but I understand the feeling that way. And if you are "needy" doesn't that mean you NEED something? You need to get your needs met.

Keep venting though! We need that sometimes.
quote:
i am acting like such a cry baby today i know. and i AM crying, believe me. it hurts so much! i don't even know what hurts!! something just does.

Following the staements you made previously I understand why you are crying, but I think your next statement hits the nail head on...
quote:
a collegue of mine saw him today (per my suggestion) and i am so freaking jealous and upset!!!

She has what you want. Frowner (((AJB)))
JM
"Your T is very good at holding back and allowing you to project everything onto him and thereby force you to see and speak to your needs" quote from JUST ME


he once told me (when i was having a slight fit in his office and said "ain't i supposed to be able to tell you anything?!!!):

"yes you are. and i'm supposed to mirror you and allow you to hear how and what you're saying"...

he said it so calmly like i wasn't sitting there having a come-apart!!!

so, does this meann that perhaps he DOES know what he is doing? i mean, i just really don't know. and how could a good therapist just let me walk away knowing i'm not done yet? what if i didn't go back? or what if that's not what happened and i DO go back? that would be awful too....
AJB.. I hear you and I feel your pain. Like JM wisely said... I don't think you are really finished with therapy. Did you and your T have "termination" sessions which made sure you were prepared to terminate and in a good place? Or did you just spring it on him and say today is my last session? Most T's won't ask you to stay because I think it's a conflict of interest. One could say they are doing it to just keep your business. Oh, I have threatened not to return and then I do and my T says "so glad you decided to return" but he will never tell me I need to continue or to ask me to please not end therapy because of this or that....

I do think you still have work to do and you need to see your therapist. You are telling us this in your posts. And to have a need is not a terrible thing. It's human nature. And you probably did not have your needs met as a child and feel ashamed of having them now. But please don't feel that way. My T is trying to get me to acknowledge my needs and to learn to ASK for what I need without feeling guilty and awful and like I'm bothering him. I'm starting to ask but I still feel guilty about it. I'm a work in progress for sure.

About not returning your phone call. Are you sure you made it clear that he needed to call you back? Sometimes they just assume (wrongly) that we called just to say something. One time my T did not answer an email I sent him asking if we were okay and looking for reassurance. 4 days went by with no response. He happened to call me to move my appt time and I fell apart on the phone telling him that I was sure he hated me because he did not answer the email and now he was moving my appointment. He felt awful about it and told me he thought my email was more "rhetorical" and I was not looking for a response. So I said... please just answer it. He did with the most wonderful email I ever got and I still hold onto for reassurance when I need it. So perhaps the unreturned phone call was just an honest error.

Oh and attachment??? My T never mentioned this either for a good reason... he had no idea about attachment theory. It is not his area and we are learning about it together. I brought the topic up and we are exploring it jointly...he had no idea I had attachment issues but is sure explained a lot of what I was feeling. About transference... I brought that up too and we talked about it but not too deeply because I was terrified at the time that he would either terminate me or it would change or ruin our relationship. With the passage of time I see it hasn't. I brought it up again this week and we will explore it further down the line.

I guess what I'm saying is that therapy is truly a collaborative effort. You have to be open with him and tell him your feelings and if you learn something outside of therapy then bring it to him and ask his opinion of it. If he does not bring something up it does not mean that he is not vested in your healing... he just does not know everything.

AJB I feel your pain and I'm so sorry you are hurting. I do think you should call him and tell him how you are feeling. People return to therapy all the time. It does not mean you are a failure or anythiing... it just means you were not done yet. It's okay. Really.

Call him.

Hugs... TN
(((OW))) I'm sorry for what you are going through too. You are grieving for your old T and I think when you see her or hear from her you are happy and then it hurts all over again because you are still mourning what you don't have or lost. I wish I knew how to make it stop for you. I'm sorry.

Just keep venting here and know that we all have ups and downs and disruptions with our Ts. No one is perfect. Maybe you should talk this over with your current T.

In the meantime I send you healing hugs.

TN
quote:
so, does this meann that perhaps he DOES know what he is doing? i mean, i just really don't know. and how could a good therapist just let me walk away knowing i'm not done yet? what if i didn't go back? or what if that's not what happened and i DO go back? that would be awful too....

AJB, I really don't know how to asnwer that. I know this is going to sound crule to a trauma survivor, but you are goung to have to trust your gut and I know how impossible that feels. A good therapist has to let you feel, but they also need to help you contain and identify what those feelings are.

I am sorry but I forget, how long were you in therapy? It takes quite a while to develop a trusting bond with a T, but you should be able to identify at least if you are a match with him. If you have never felt that it may be worth "shopping around."

I would suppose that trying a different T and seeing how you connect with them would do no harm. I don't want to steer you away from a potentially wonderful T who knows you far better than I and has your best interest at heart. But I don't want to ignore the plaguing feelings of dissatisfaction I sense from your experience either. But this has to be your decision.

AJB, Close your eyes for a moment and take a deep cleansing breath then picture your T. Try to capture his facial expressions, his hair color, his voice and mannerisms. What is the qualities that you notice about him most?

Keep posting as much as you need to. Feel free to say what you need to express. It is all good and it all makes sense. You are in a painful place and sometimes you just need to hear yourself think. This is a good place to do that. I may be in and out, but I will be happy to reply and I know that there are many others who might jump in too. You're not a lone.
JM
THANKS EVERYONE!!

OW:
i read stuff on here all the time that sounds JUST LIKE what i am feeling or experiencing at the time. it's funny how just knowing you're not alone makes it easier to bear, huh? well, i just wanted to tell you to go ahead and just say whatever's on your mind. TRUST ME: you'll feel a whole lot better if you just let it out!!!

TN:
Thanks so much for all your kind words. i had decided with my husband that i don't need anymore regularly scheduled sessions but that i should talk it over with my T. i don't remember exactly telling him in session that i was "finished" or whatever, but when the session was over, he (cautiously) said he didn't think i needed another scheduled session. he said that he was there if i should need him in the future.so...
in my sessions, he mostly just taught me assertiveness and about passiveness/aggressiveness and how to not be taken advantage of and how to effectively communicate with others(especially my husband). too bad i cannot communicate with the T!!! once he wrote stuff down and said at next session we would discuss setting boundaries, but we never did...
i don't know..... thanks again for your support.

JM:
i was in therapy about 5 months. saw him about twice per month. twice he asked me what did i come in for today, which made me feel stupid and like i was bothering him. but i didn't tell him that, of course (didn't want to be even more of a bother). i guess i didn't talk enough or something. i remember saying "I don't know" alot. once he mentioned the word "bipolar" which freaked me out. i am not bipolar (and he didn't exactly say i was, but i am a nurse and it totally hit a nerve)
and once he told me i have alot of "dependence". he said he could "see it all over" me.
i live in a very small town(which he comes to once per week to work)and i just don't want to look like a fool if i go back and nothing happens. you know, if he says "what are you back for?" or if i go and get nowhere again. although it isn't really fair to say i got nowhere because i really did. in fact i think the therapy might've saved my marriage.
oh, one more thing:
once he told me "this (therapy) isn't forever"
which made me think even more that i was a bother and he couldn't wait for me to terminate. i think that might've been the day i tuned it all out, now that i think about it. may have been the day i decided i was miraculously "cured", i don't know..........

thanks again!
Reading this forum is good enough therapy at times.
I too feel that what others have written is exactly how I am feeling at the time.
I'm sorry to those of you going through a rough day today, but i get it!

Tomorrow is THE DAY I see my T. I'm re-reading the notes I've taken on transference and attachment theory, reviewing the highlights, but its NOT helping think of a way of how to bring this up, and I know that in talking I'm going to be a stuttering spaz.
I'm scared to death of changing the relationship. On top if it all I have to mention my friend and that it bothers me that she goes there. Like REALLY bothers me.
He's going to think I'm his next stalker I feel.
One hour just won't cut it. Damn.
travelluvr... what you say is "I have something important to talk to you about but I'm scared because I don't want it to change the good relationship that we have but I feel I need to be honest. Because if I'm not honest it will interfere with our therapy and that is very important to me."

Then you can talk about transference and if you think you have attachment issues you can introduce that into the conversation by saying that maybe you react to him the way you do is because he has become and attachment figure (a secure base) for you and then you can discuss what that means. This can all lead into how you are feeling about him seeing your friend. It's almost like if you have some parental feelings for him she is like a sibling trying to take your parent's attention away from you. We all want to be special to our T's and it's hard enough with the other patients nevermind one that is a friend.

Good luck tomorrow.
TN
AJB,

I hear a lot of dissatisfaction from you. Perhaps he is a really good T, but he is not for you. You may need someone more attuned and less subtle in their approach. I know I do. And that is no slight on your part or his, it is that the two of you just don't mesh. For someone who plays such a significantly vital role in our lives he just doesn't seem to show up for you. It is nothing bad against him or you, there is just no chemsitry or connection and that is a must.

If I may add, if you are dealing with any type of trauma 5 months does not seem near long enough to have procesed anything completely. It takes longer than that to build a trusting realtionship with a T which is essential in your ability to work through the trauma(s).

I am so sorry I can't make this easier for you. I would if I could.
quote:
once he told me "this (therapy) isn't forever"

AJB

I have been in therapy for over 2 years, and I am really only just feeling a little more comfortable about the transference thing. It took a long time for it to appear, and it took a REALLY long time for me to figure out what it was and that I am normal. During that time (and quite often still) the pain is excruciating. 5 months is a very short time as JM said. When I starting whining to my T about how long I have been in therapy, and I must be cracked, and probably no one else has been doing this so long.......she said "therapy takes as long as therapy takes."

I think you have gotten a lot of great advice on this thread and I won't repeat what everyone else said, especially because they said it so well, but I do agree with them. There is nothing wrong with going back to therapy. My T says that people "dip in and out" all the time. And it is just quite possible that you and this particular T are not a match. You probably won't know until you try someone else and see how that feels. Check out the thread about finding a T, there was great discussion on there. I know it can be frightening to think that you are starting all over with someone else, but if another T becomes a match, it will be the most wonderful feeling for you and it will help you to resolve what is bothering you.

travelluvr

You have two very big issues you are dealing with. I can tell that the friend thing is really bothering you and I can completely understand. The connection between you and your T is a very personal one and to have someone else pretend that they know what you are doing in your therapy is just wrong! It sounds like your T is very kind and is looking out for you, especially by changing her appointment and not yours. Smiler You have to talk to him about this and get his reassurance that he is there for you, and it has nothing to do with her. If you don't talk to him about this, I'm afraid you will keep hurting. And I know for me, when something about my T starts to hurt, I can really blow it up to a monstrous size and dwell on it until I am sick. (I'm not minimizing your feelings at all here)

The transference issue is also very big. And anyone of use on here can attest to this. We have so..... been there, and still are. Again, you HAVE to bring this up to get some relief for yourself. T's do not want to push or suggest things to us because we have to tell them what we are feeling. If they make suggestions about something that really isn't what we are feeling, then they put an idea into our heads that is not true. How awful would it be to spend session after session talking about something that really doesn't relate to you!

You may want to write down what you are feeling and thinking before your session so you don't get flustered (as muchWink). You don't necessarily have to read it to him, but you would have the satisfaction of knowing you had it just in case. And you may not get through it all in one session. But getting a little bit of it out, whatever you can handle, will let off a little of what is building up inside you. This is a scary thing that you are doing, but the rewards will be more than you can imagine. I wish you luck. Smiler

PL
travelluvr...try reading this piece on attachment...scroll down to the heading "The Therapist as an Attachment Figure"

http://www.daniel-sonkin.com/attachment_psychotherapy.htm

As for transference...there are many types of transference so it's hard to know where to send you to read. There is even negative transference where you attribute negative characteristics you encountered with people in your past to your therapist. The opposite side of this is erotic transference, which pretty much says that you have a passionate attraction to your T or a strong desire for your T. I would suggest reading In Session by Deborah Lott (available usually on Amazon). She explains a lot about this.

Why are you sure you are experiencing both?

TN
Travelluvr,
I'll take a shot at the difference between attachment figure and transference. Its easy to get confused and for a good reason. People who have attachment issues, especially disorganized attachment which is commonly the result of long-term childhood abuse and/or neglect, are often the people who develop intense "transference" relationships with their T. So often the two things, though separate, occur together and are interrelated in some ways.

Transference does not mean you aren't having real feelings in the here and now, you absolutely are and they are real and legitimate (my T tends to avoid the word transference, he doesn't like the connotations). But how you behave in relationship and the feelings that you struggle with in significant relationships can often be indicators of unresolved problems or unmet needs in your past. So the ability to observe your emotions and be able to discuss them with the object of those emotions,your T, who can also do the reality checking of telling you how they actually do feel and think, allows you to see patterns in yourself that you have no other way of observing. We can only know ourself in relationship. So the feelings that occur in the theraputic relationship can often be clues leading us back to things in our past that need to be healed. And when we heal, that allows us to change and having healthier relationships both with our Ts and outside of therapy.

Attachment theory states that our relationship with our attachment figure is a biologically driven behavior designed to help us survive since human infant would die on their own. The interactions with our attachment figure (literally from birth onward) form our "template" for relationships and what we expect from them. It shapes how we see the world and people around them. It literally affects the physical structure of the brain and the neural networks that develop. For people who receive "good enough" care from their attachment figures, their template tells them that when they express a need, it is met. That they matter because someone responds to their outcries and helps them understand themselves. They are taught how to handle adversity and soothe themselves by being soothed by their attachment figure. Recieving this kind of care provides them with a deep sense of their own worth and acceptableness.

But, if you do not receive these things from your attachment figure and in the case of abuse, the very person you need to go towards when distressed is the person causing the distress, all kind of maladaptive behaviors ensue, which provide the important function of surviving your childhood (which is a biggie) but later in life can become the very behaviors that prevent you from having a fulfilling life with close intimate relationships.

Your need to have a sense of your own worth and to learn how to handle your own emotions and move through them go unfulfilled. But these are basic human needs and do NOT go away although they can be driven deep underground.

And this is where the connection between attachment and transference comes in. A person who has never experienced a secure attachment will continue to look for one without even being aware of it. These are strong, primitive needs that can really drive you. So you go to therapy and here is someone who is listening to you, caring about you, treating you like you matter, understanding you and helping you make sense of your emotions. All the things you're attachment figure should have done. And that's when you're long-buried, but intense and primitive needs come roaring back to life because at last you can have them met. That's why the intensity is so high for transference (of any kind, I know I have struggled with both intense paternal and erotic transference depending on which emotions and needs I am dealing with.) because these are primitive needs from a time when you were pre-verbal and pre-cognitive but are experienced as a life and death issue which they were at the time. When we are in fear of our life, our limbic system can really scream at us to do something about it. So our relationship with our therapist takes on a "life and death" aspect. And we feel small and vulnerable and childish because that's exactly the part of ourselves that is so needy in this area.

The really good news is that attachment research has found that the brain's structure retains plasticity throughout your life so that we can fix a "faulty" template by forming a secure attachment even in adulthood. Working with your therapist, experiencing new emotional responses, literally rewires your brain.

There's a really excellent book (that I've recommended a gazillion times on this site, because it was very important to my healing) is The General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis et al. It's extremely well-written and very accessible for the layman and provides an excellent explanation for how your brain develops according to attachment theory and how that translates into therapy. It provided a turning point for me both in accepting my need for dependence on my therapist for awhile and hope that I could ultimately work through all the intense feelings.

Hope that helped, feel free to ask questions about anything that didn't make sense.

AG
AJB,
I'm sorry for the hurt you're going through. I don't have much to add because you're getting excellent input, but I just wanted to say Five months?!!?? I mean, it took me that long to make eye contact, for pete's sake. I've been at this for over 20 years and am on my fourth run of therapy. I have left and come back three times and worked with two different therapists.

I don't want to scare anyone, I don't think it takes most people this long but just in case you feel like you're taking a long time, comfort yourself with the thought that you know someone who has taken longer. Big Grin

So it doesn't suprise me at all that you may need to do more work. Especially since it sounds like there was a lot you didn't feel able to say.

AG
Hi,
This is my first post. I can relate to much of what all of you have posted and you seem to be more comfortable with transferences then I. I have a preoccupied attachment with my T, which is making me feel very uncomfortable. I spend a great deal of time trying to keep in check, because it feels like a huge flaw in my character. I know transferences can contribute to some of the biggest personal growth in therapy, but I don't trust that if I let myself sink into it I will be do what is best for me. I feel like I will be losing some of my independence. I don't want to foster a dependency role because I feel like that will be backsliding. I really could use some of your insights.
Questing
Questing,
Welcome to the forums, thanks for introducing yourself. This is a great place to come when dealing with transference issues as so many people are dealing with it.

As far as dependency, I know that it was a huge issue with me in working through this. I thought that dependency was automatically unhealthy in a theraputic relationship and to be avoided at all costs. I have since learned differently. For the issues that I'm dealing with (the need to form a secure attachment) it as actually been necessary for me to allow myself to be dependent on my T for awhile because getting what I need in terms of an attachment figure is the only way for me to grow independent in a way which also allows me to form healthy, intimate connections with other people. In a sense, I'm going back to correct some develop gone awry, so that I can learn to be healthy and interdependent in the here and now. For me, dependency was so terrifying because the last time I tried it with my parents, it really didn't work out well.

If you go back a few posts in this thread, there's a book General Theory of Love that I think you would find helpful. The chapter Between Stone and Sky directly addresses the dependency issue. I think I may have actually posted an excerpt on that in another thread.

But in any case, I would recommend reading Shrinklady's article on Transference and both the transference threads. You're posting in teh second one and here's the first one Update on Transference. There's a lot of good info.

Looking forward to getting to know you. Great username by the way!

Oh, and one more thing, have you talked to your T about how you feel?
AG

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