quote:

but I have decided that I will see the new T and I am going to Exercise, Tan, Tone and dress to kill!!!...I will show him...when we pass in the office..."AND WE WILL PASS IN THE OFFICE"!!!! if he did have any thoughts of transference with me....He will have a hard time dealing with this too!! ....I just feel mean today...

LOL! I can certainly understand why you feel this way. My experience with transference is that it is one of the strongest and most intense feelings/experiences one can ever imagine x 10. I can only imagine that having to terminate a realionship w/ T because of it would be the most heartbreaking experience ever x 100. So what I'm saying is that you do need to work through these feelings that your termination has triggered, and by the sound of your post Charlotte, I beleive you will and you will be just fine. And I hope that what you hear yourself saying is that you deserve better than how you initially perceived you were being treated! You go girl!

quote:

...But I need to do this for my self and as part of my healing...who knows...maybe my husband might notice me again!!!Charlotte

This is the truth behind the exterior, more painful and prominant feelings you describe above. It IS for you Charlotte. This is all for you! You'll work through all of these feelings and you will come off victorious. And don't you believe that is what your T really wants for you? I think so too.
JM

quote:

I have rambled on too long...but I have enjoyed getting some of this out of my head...sorta writers therapy I guess...Thanks for listening!!

I've described this forum like a talking journal. I find it very therapeutic sometimes. It is nice that your T will be supervising your progress under your new T. I think that speaks volumes to his care and concern for you Charlotte.

One more word about transference and it is strictly my opinion: But it seems that the intensity of emotions that come into play in its highly aroused state for a client experiencing it, can be very distracting to the real work at hand. If a client only focuses on the surface attraction to her T then she is missing the opportunity to work through the issues beneath the surface that trigger the transference in the first place. That s why it is necessary that a good T direct and guide a client to do that because we may be too inebriated w/ it ourselves, we are often filled with the compulsion to want to act out any given fantasies and feelings sparked by transference. (ie; rolling on the couch with them, meeting them after hours, so on and so forth whatever it may be). When a client begins to behave so erratically that the T can no longer control a situation in the clients best interest, or if his/her own issues or counter-transference get IN THE WAY then it is very responsible for them to terminate and refer to another T who may be better equipped to deal with the particular issues the client needs to work through. If a T fails to do that the transference no longer is a useful tool in therapy but a barrier to it, and becomes a tool to use in their own personal agenda.

“To whom much is given much is expected.”

Just my thoughts.

quote:

I wonder if the therapists that are psychologists have experience to deal with transference or countertransference.

Hi SimplyMe,

My T is not a “psychologist”, but a LMFT who also provides individual therapy and is adequately trained and experienced in dealing with transference. What separates a T from handling it properly whether experienced w/ it or not is the humility to accept whatever their own limitations might be and how their own issues come into play, and their willingness to seek supervision.

JM

quote:

My T did not terminate me as a patient - I decided that I needed to talk to someone else. I have to also wonder how many other women patients my t has had feelings for in the past. Things that make you go hmm....

SimplyMe,
I really applaud you for that. It would have been so easy to just throw caution to the wind. It is interesting that you wonder how many other women patients he may have had "feelings for." If that is true then it demonstrates that he has not worked out his own issues.

That brings me to comment on something else you said about "giving him credit for not lying to you." I suppose we should give credit where credit is due, but don't we all expect that our T's would not lie to us? The idea evades me as to why he allowed himself to experience these feelings for you 'over time' instead of taking the proactive approach himself as the professional. Let me say again that you at least handled that really well. Not to belittle the man in any way, mind you. I know very little and almost nothing about the whole of the circumstances and I am in no position to judge another, but I am commenting on only what you've slightly revealed.

JM

How do you know if your attraction to your t is transference or not?

Of course, no one wants their t's to lie to them. He could have told me that "no, he didn't have feelings for me" when in reality he does, so that I would continue to see him. So in effect he would have had a motive to not tell me the truth. Does that make sense?

As far as wondering if he has had feelings for other patients, I just am curious as to the answer to that. I will admit that ever since he told me how he felt about me my feelings for him are not that strong anymore. There are a lot of fish in the sea and I still have a lot of fishing to do!

quote:

How do you know if your attraction to your t is transference or not?

That’s a good question SimplyMe.

The fact that it did occur in a therapeutic setting would give a strong indication as to that it is transference. But on the other hand transference is not just something we experience in professional relationships therefore its role in many of our relationships cannot be overlooked.

For instance, we may experience transference for friends, spouses, teachers, boss, and other authority figures, just to name a few. The role of transference is that it identifies us or connects us to someone in our present through our past experiences. If someone fits the pattern we have come to know from our past experiences then they may take on transference like role in our lives which is completely normal and even scientific. (Limbic Attractors)

In therapy however we cannot know enough personal information about our T’s to provide these connections and we have to rely on projected information that we gain. Transference based on very little information is strictly transference, but the emotions are very real and the relationships DOES in fact become very real too, but within its boundaries. Once it is taken outside those boundaries it becomes prone to all the added conflicts of every other relationship we’ve ever experienced, and possibly worse.

Hmm..Sorry for the long winded reply to a seemingly simple question, but it IS a really good question.

One suggestion is that you might enjoy reading the book “A General Theory of Love” by Thomas Lewis. There just happens to be a post on that on forum too.

JM

quote:

He could have told me that "no, he didn't have feelings for me" when in reality he does, so that I would continue to see him. So in effect he would have had a motive to not tell me the truth. Does that make sense?

No one's debating that. But he did refrain from telling you until you brought up the "proverbial elephant in the room." But I don't know how long he had these feelings for you and if he was seeking consultation from a supervisor for them. One would certainly hope so.

Hi SimplyMe,
Now I get it, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you asked him or that you were the one who decided to terminate. Both very courageous acts by the way. And I agree with you, that he shouldn't have lied to you. As JM mentioned, if there's one thing you should be able to count on your T for its not to lie to you.

AG

Charlotte,
Please do not worry that you're talking too much, that's what we're here for. And I know you feel confused and overwhelmed but you're dealing with this great. It's really difficult to have your T send you to someone else, but I agree with everyone else. I really believe that he cares for you and what's best for you so he's sending you to someone that he thinks will be more effective in helping you but he's also doing it without dissappearing from your life.

And you're impulse to take care of yourself, instead of punishing yourself for something that was not your fault, is a good one. Go with it, you deserve to be taken good care of.

And for what it's worth, my husband and I had been married for 21 years when we started marital counseling with my T and I thought we had a snowball's chance in a pizza oven to actually pulling through. I thought it was over and was just giving it one last shot so I could leave with a clear conscience. And things are so much better now that I'm really glad that I was able to stick it out. So there's hope.

AG

Hey everyone,
I promised to let you know what happened in session with my new Ms. T. Plus I didnt want JM tracking me down with the beagles!! LOL

Well, I made it a point to ge there 10 minutes early so I could catch a glimpse of Mr. T, which BTW I did, and he seemed to be as anxious to see me as I him...or so I fantasise that he did...but I was really nervous and trying to look calm too. My new Ms. T seems very nice and very open about things, she knew I really did not care to see her and told me she knew that. She knew the feelings I had for him and told me she undestood that too...I told her exactly how I had felt about the whole thing and that I was hurt, mad, upset, and devestated at the whole thing...as we talked I told her that one thing that I really needed was to be able to see him for a few minutes once every once in a while to discuss my progress with him, She said she would ask if I could show positive progress in my work for my feelings for him...I told her I was upset that I had called him twice and he hadn't called me back...she told me he told her I had called and to explain that it was best right now that he didn't.

I told her I was afraid to open up to her because when i opened up to him he kicked me to the curb..I told her I had a terrible time last week and felt like I could have ended it all for the first 24 hours......and it wasn't fair I had to go thru all that and he didn't have to suffer at all..because he didn't care...That's when she told me she had something that I really needed to hear. She said that "he" had come to her and talked to her for "several hours" about my case and the things we had worked on...and he was very concerned for me and was very strong in the fact that I get thru this and supervise the work, because he cared very much that I respected his work and trusted him enough to have the feelings that I had for him in the first place, and that he did not want me to have to go thru this alone. He also told her that he was amazed at the strength I had and the initative I took to tell him how I really felt, because most women do not, the therapist has to point it out of them. This made me feel a little better.

Anyway we talked mainly about my feelings about the whole thing and she was very kind and told me she didn't blame me for the things I felt and that she would probably felt the same. I told her that even though I had been thru heck and half of Georgia these last few months that I am not a quitter, and I would survive...now I just gotta keep telling myself that!! She told me my homework for next week is to write "HIM" a letter. A letter telling hime everything I wanted to say to him, good and bad...express my feelings that I never got to tell him, and to let him know how he had helped me too...I don't have to give it to him or her but I can if I want to...I been thinking about wahat to say...but really don't know where to begin...I'll thimk about that tomorrow!!..but that's pretty much how it went...and I cried alot...and had 2 milkshakes on the way home...it felt good...so I skipped supper tonight...talk to you soon...and thanks for the responses keep themem coming...I need it and love the support!!...Charlotte

Charlotte it sounds like your new T is going to work out good for you. And how wonderful that she could validate that "MR T" really does care for you for spending hours talking to her about your case and how they could best help YOU through this. I am excited for you!

Thanks for sharing.

Sorry about the beagles, but they ARE excellent trackers. LOL

JM

Transference: My own revelations and my need to understand it.

I hope you guys don’t mind some more of my personal musings and my own interpretation of what I’ve learned so far. I hope that others find it interesting and maybe even helpful.

Our relationship with our T is very intimate. Possibly the most intimate relationship we will ever know in its truest, purest form, allowing us to experience complete, unselfish attention and care from another human being. In order to solidify this acutely unique experience, it has to remain undefiled by someone else’s needs which would exclude entering into the often desired dual relationship (friendship, romantic or otherwise) and the even more detrimental breech of sexual consummation, which in a therapeutic relationship is as aberrant as incest.

So why do we get these feelings?
I initially experienced erotic transference for my T in the beginning of my therapy, but then it gradually shifted into a very strong maternal connection wherein my attachment to my T became very intense. In this attachment I found a security I had never known before and I began to flourish and make great strides in my healing process. Then about a week ago something triggered the homo-erotic transference again which made me wonder; is “transference just transference” that manifests itself in different degrees (i.e.; erotic/homo-erotic, maternal/ paternal etc.) or does how it manifests itself tell us something more peculiar?

My T explained it to me this way; “Sexual transference represents our desiring “equitableness” in our intimacy. To be sexual with someone is a complete surrendering of “both souls,” to be as important, special, and desirable to our partner as they are to us.”

Wherein, our T’s surrender virtually nothing about themselves and their personal lives to us. By virtue of its design our therapeutic relationship offers a safe environment for us to explore our own feelings and needs w/o it being skewed by someone else’s. Therefore indentifying “what triggers” an intense transference (sexual, maternal, or otherwise) for our T we can better understand something about ourselves, something about our past that is begging to be heard.

Most recently for me it was this;
I never feel like I fit in. Even though I have many friends I never feel important to them no matter how much the evidence contradicts that belief. REASON: Very complex, but simply stated; my whole life I felt excluded with no sense of belonging, especially as a child and that is a very painful recollection for me. So in come the fantasies (we ) create to feel better about ourselves. We all do it; we’ve always done it in one way or another. My sexual desire for my T represents my desire of sharing and receiving complete equality with absolutely no exclusion from her life (and body.) The desire to belong to her and that I can be made to feel good and make someone else feel good in return, to feel needed and desired by someone so important, is a very strong, intoxicating urge for me. On the other hand, the feeling of being excluded from her personal life can feel like stone cold rejection. Now the cycle begins and I therefore, by sub-consciously creating sexual intimacy with her, provide a sense of belonging and inclusion to help deal with the “feelings” of rejection. Out of habit, I repeat this pattern by fantasizing about something I can’t have with my T, but have always desired in life...complete acceptance for who I am and that what I have to offer is valuable to someone else. Truly, erotic transference is much more innocent than the “fantasized” sexual encounter would seem to entail.


It is not wrong to have erotic or homo-erotic transference for a T, but it is essential to know that it needs to become a tool and not an obsession. Getting “stuck” in this transference is obsessing on something that is never going to happen. It can’t happen. Obsession is an addiction just as much as alcohol and drugs, but addictions hinder progress. Ignoring the triggers of our painful past by getting caught up in the feel good, pleasure seeking; stimulating fantasies w/o addressing the cause is repeating the same hurtful patterns that have failed us in the past. Remaining in the erotic/homo-erotic stages of transference may also be a means to avoid dealing with the painful issues hidden beneath the surface of transference. To allow ourselves to work though the varying stages of transference; the magnetic pull of erotic transference, through a more maternal/paternal transference, leads us to an ultimate “secure attachment base.” Secure attachment is the doorway to the other side of transference and what I hope to find there is self love.

It is interesting that I made a statement to my T about a month ago that was something to this effect; “I like being here. I feel really good here.”

She replied, “Good! Because HERE it is all about YOU! You like being heard and that says you like something about yourself and that you’re becoming comfortable talking about your needs.”

–hmm…I wonder what she meant by that?

JM,
What you have written really resonates with me and my experience with transference. When the feelings are intense and I work them through they invariably link to my past. And all of the reasons you discussed for the intense longings ring really true to me. I know I move in and out of the erotic feelings. Most often my feelings are paternal. I think I have longed more to be my Ts daughter or grandaughter then I have longed to be a lover, but all have in common that I want to "belong" to him in some way.

Usually when the erotic feelings are strong, its a sign something difficult is coming. I think I use the fantasy to try and avoid the pain underneath. So I absolutely think you hit the nail on the head when you said the transference needs to become a tool. I can truly say that most of the progress I have made with my current T has taken place by working through transference feelings not concentrating on acting them out.

I know I have really been struggling in the erotic deppartment myself lately, and when I started looking at it, it turned out to be due to some memories getting triggered that contain some very powerful feelings I need to acknowledge and process. At least I know what I'm talking about my next session.

Thanks for taking the time to share this. Transference can be so gonzo confusing as you experience it, and I think this is a very insightful explanation that will help anyone trying to deal with transference. You are a very wise woman and I appreciate your ability to keep pushing through to get at what's underneath and then being brave enough to talk about it here. Thank you.

AG

Hi JM,

I think your discussion of transference and your reasons are really powerful for you and for others. It resonates with me a lot particularly in the feeling that there was no sense of belonging in your childhood. I haven't experienced erotic transference (yet?) but I definitely react to my T as a parental figure. Possibly because I have only been in therapy a short while (I never guessed I would call 7 months short) and I am only recently starting to trust T.

thank you for sharing,

Thanks gals. I wasn’t sure how it would be accepted. I was worried that it might be too self exposing for others to relate to or that it was in such essay form that I came off trying to teach everyone. I really just wanted to share because I find my own understanding in relating my experience.

I also think that we don’t have to experience erotic transference to get stuck in transference. But the mature subject matter certainly makes for an easy distraction. Oi vey!

As for the sense of belonging I agree that it does play into transference in every sense of the word. Maybe I’m stretching it, but I love to analyze things to death. So I was thinking when we were little we had no control over what happened to us. But in our search for belonging I think there is also a natural need for us to find a sense of equality, so as adults we want to play out the relationship on our terms and our fantasies, no matter what they are, provide opportunity for us to do this. On one hand, I want to be my T’s friend. On the other hand, there is a primal need to be taken care of, so at other times I want her to be my mother. That is one reason why I think that transference can sometimes be so confusing.

There is a reason that TRANSFERENCE is the most read and replied topic on the forum. To anyone out there…You ARE normal!

So, I'm not at a point where I have erotic transference with Tfella, though he's more than a wee bit paternal-feeling to me at the moment, as you might expect. But what really made me go off on my own thoughts in this post was when you said:

quote:

So in come the fantasies (we ) create to feel better about ourselves.

I wondered what it was that I fantasize about this way, and I realize that it's about protecting people. I always end up running through how to defend a particular place (with the particular people in it that live/work there) given various horrible happenings (and yes - you name it, I've made up a little fantasy about how to deal with it, any place that I live/work. Yes. Really. All of them. That too? Yup, that too. :P ). They're like little action-heroine vignettes, some of the time: where I successfully protect people, and myself, generally. Although I flatter myself that they're slightly more realistic and involve substantially more fire escape use than your average action movie.

So when you said:

quote:

Out of habit, I repeat this pattern by fantasizing about something I can’t have with my T, but have always desired in life...

I thought..."I wanted to be safe? To be able to protect people? Oh, yeah, I did. And I never got to be. Huh! That would explain all the... Huh!"

S'fascinating how the stuff that can be used to asplain t-relationships also accounts for so much of the rest of life interactions. I guess that's the point, right?

<----*takes baby steps* Thanks for sharing!

Right on Wynne!
Those fantasies are initially created in our childhood as a means to cope with the harsh circumstances of reality.

That is also hyper-vigilance when we are constantly prepared and preparing oursleves to survive danger and ever alert to it even when it is not a current threat. I find that very exhausting.

Hey everyone, I hope all is well with everyone..not much going on in this neck of the forum lately. Keep me in your mind tomorrow..I have my second session with Ms. T...I had to write a leter for homework to my old T...It really brings me into a tizzy when I start to express myself...but I will let you all know what happens tomorrow... AG where are you hiding?? Talk to you soon...Charlotte