Hi Charlotte,
I'm sorry! I totally zoned and missed your post on your first meeting with your new T. I work for a software company and we're trying to get out a Beta release and releases are when my work load gets the heaviest, I'm working OT right now and I'm afraid it has a tendency to cut into my surfing time. I'm trying to check in but I'm buzzing through. I'm sorry I didn't notice it sooner.

It sounds like you have two incredible Ts. I can only imagine how painful it was to feel like you spoke up about your feelings and were punished for it, but I hope that you were able to take in what your new T said. Someone discussing your case for hours, and expressing the kind of admiration he did for the work that you are doing is NOT someone who doesn't care. As painful as it was, he did something very loving in referring you to another T, he made sure that the highest priority was your healing. I really hope that will be a comfort to you as you go through this.

And I love that your new T could hear that you are unhappy having to go to her and totally get it and not make it about her. I know this had been painful and scary and difficult (well, we are talking about therapy, aren't we? ) but it really sounds like you are in good hands and have not one, but two, caring therapists on your side.

Keep talking about it here and I promise I'll try not to miss any more posts. But if I'm MIA over the next couple weeks, please know its my schedule and not a lack of care on my part. I think I'm understanding Robin/Scott/Samy/Antoni et al a little better right now.

AG

Hey everyone. I'm going to brain dump on my own transference situation (Dr.X, my medical doctor, not my T!) that is in the first thread for those who don't remember.

A few weeks ago I dreamt that we kissed. He ushered me into the house, past his wife, and into the back bedroom. He said, "My wife can't know about this. We will have to do this when she is not home or we will have to get one of those three hour hotel rooms." I said, "No, I don't do that." We went into another smaller, darkened room, he was in shadows. He picked me up, I could see his muscular arms as he picked me up and I thought, "I can't believe he is strong enough to pick me up!" along with, "I can't believe I am in this sexy man's arms!" He started to kiss me while holding me up, close mouthed, sort of politely at first and then right towards the end with tongue. I was thinking as he was kissing me that it wasn't doing anything for me and I felt sad about it, that I wasn't turned on. He put me down and walked away. I followed. We were in the driveway now, him sitting, and I was in the grass playing with his kids as he watched me, smiling.

This dream made me so happy. I woke up so happy that contact, physical contact had finally been made, even if it wasn't real. It made things feel in the past, like I could move on. But then a couple of weeks later I dreamt he called me and said I had cancer again and it had spread to my spine. This brought back a lot of feelings from when he first told me I had cancer and I have been basically depressed for the last four days since the dream.

Then today I was with a good friend who is aware of this situation and she asked me if I wanted to see where he lived. We were going for a walk nearby and she knows that I know where he lives, though I had never been there. I said yes so we drove by his house. And there it was. The life that I can never have with him. This made me sad. How could I have found someone who has tried to will my good, tried to protect me, expressed explicit caring for me, that I can never have? And why can't I just take that knowledge and feeling instead of driving it into the ground by obsessing about him? Am I trying to punish myself? Do I believe I do not deserve this without the inner emotional drama?

I could terminate him very easily but I fear it would do no good, that I would still obsess about him with no hope of seeing him ever again. And why would I want to walk away from someone who was so kind to me when I needed it the most, when everyone else had left me for dead emotionally? He is, of course, also my security blanket!

JM, you had a wonderful post on page 4, where you quoted your T as saying that the sexual transference is desiring equality. I love it. There has been that factor, but sometimes it is just that I want him to take me in, start me over so he can raise me and I can have a much better life because of it! I wish that I came from him. I can't express my emotions to people very well usually (it is what I grew up with) but I did to him and he didn't punish me for it. He validated me.

Gah, I'm stuck and I don't know what to do to get out!

Hi SprintingGal,
It is good to hear from you again, though I wish you were feeling better.
I know it can seem confusing sometimes to switch from a romantic or sexual fantasy, to wanting to be raised and nurtured by him. (Something we’ve sort of played out in the relationships we’ve chosen throughout our lives in one way or another.) I’m guessing that you’re probably feeling stuck because Dr. X does not have the ability to work you though your feelings the way that a T does. So I hope that you can learn to express your feelings to your T and she will make you feel as good as Dr. X and you will find acceptance and complete attunement with her too.

I apologize if my remarks seem blunt or striking the air, but I can’t really tell. I am hinging between feeling some very intense emotions and a little dissociation so I am kind of out of it lately. I am trying to keep up with everything going on here, but I am having a real hard time with that too, so I tend to be more quiet when I lose my ability for expression. But I wanted to make some reply.
JM

Hi Sprinting Gal,
I'm sorry its so difficult. This is a hard enough place to be in when you can work it through with the person which I realize isn't true in your case.

But if I may be so presumptious, I had an interesting take on your dream and I wanted to share my interpretation with you. BUT, and this is a big but, I'm basing this on what little I know of you from previous posts and my own experience so I could be completely off base. So if it rings true great, but if not, feel free to toss it out.

quote:

He started to kiss me while holding me up, close mouthed, sort of politely at first and then right towards the end with tongue. I was thinking as he was kissing me that it wasn't doing anything for me and I felt sad about it, that I wasn't turned on. He put me down and walked away. I followed. We were in the driveway now, him sitting, and I was in the grass playing with his kids as he watched me, smiling.

I think that when we have attachment issues, and we find someone who seems to hold out the promise of providing what is missing (because those needs never go away) it often manifests as a romantic/erotic interest because as adults those are our closest, most supportive relationships. The closet we can come to the boundaryless existence we once had with our mothers. But the truth is, that we're looking for what we didn't have then when we were children. I thought it was really interesting that you're dream started along the lines of a sexual relationship but even in the middle of that you were amazed he could pick you up. But if you were a little girl, he would be able to do that easily. You recognized that the relationship felt wrong because of his saying he had to keep it from his wife and you're saying you wouldn't go to a hotel. When you did kiss him, your reaction was that it really wasn't what you were looking for. But at the end you were with his children, playing with them and he was smiling at you. I think this speaks very strongly of you looking for the security and strong arms of a father who would be there for you, of you wanting to be part of his family.

I mentioned it in another post, but my T's granddaughter has a blog posted by her mother and had posted some stuff about holiday celebrations. I talked to my T about it. It was really painful in some ways because I had to deal with just how much I would have given to grown up in a family like my Ts and how much I just wanted to belong to him in any way possible: daughter, grandaughter, niece, you name it, just so I could have had a loving family where my needs were attended to.

If I'm right (and I must emphasize again how wrong I could be) then your desires for your doctor are pointing to deeper issues. The good news is that they are the kind of issues that you CAN deal with with your T. And by coming here.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:

I think that when we have attachment issues, and we find someone who seems to hold out the promise of providing what is missing (because those needs never go away) it often manifests as a romantic/erotic interest because as adults those are our closest, most supportive relationships. The closet we can come to the boundaryless existence we once had with our mothers. But the truth is, that we're looking for what we didn't have then when we were children. I thought it was really interesting that you're dream started along the lines of a sexual relationship but even in the middle of that you were amazed he could pick you up. But if you were a little girl, he would be able to do that easily. You recognized that the relationship felt wrong because of his saying he had to keep it from his wife and you're saying you wouldn't go to a hotel. When you did kiss him, your reaction was that it really wasn't what you were looking for. But at the end you were with his children, playing with them and he was smiling at you. I think this speaks very strongly of you looking for the security and strong arms of a father who would be there for you, of you wanting to be part of his family.

Wow. AG, what a wonderful interpretation. I burst into tears when I read it. Right on target, thank you!

I was thinking about my "men of transference past" last night and they all embodied something different that I missed in having a loving, involved dad. The professor tended to my intellect; he encouraged me, shared things with me from his discipline, and discussed various books and travel experiences with me. The boss and I were partners in crime, matching wit and making the other laugh in the process. And the doctor, who was at ground zero in the most frightening experience of my life, listened to me, validated me, cares about me, looks out for me, which are the most important things of all I think. He has tried to "will my good."

I'm to see my T today and I plan to discuss that dream with her (and others- my dreams have become very fertile ground lately). I know I miss the influence of a loving dad, I know the one I had abused me, was emotionally unavailable, and just a loser in about every way (there was very little to idolize) and I missed out on a lot. But now that I know that, how do I go forward without falling into the same trap over and over again? That is the key. It is what I need to figure out and hopefully my T can help lead me there.

SprintingGal

Sprinting Gal,
I'm so glad you found that helpful, I was hoping I was really not out in left field.

I think its great you're going to discuss your dreams with your T. Dreams have always been important to me in therapy and often the beginning of me dealing with a new issue starts with having a dream about it.

The key to not falling into the same trap again and again is to work through the feelings with your T. It may involve her becoming a secure base, it may involve you having to mourn and let go of the things that you didn't have but the end will result in being able to integrate the strength you need within yourself and be capable of forming interdepenent relationships where you can get your needs met. You'll stop being driven by an unconscious agenda. I think you're totally on the right track. Please let me know how your appt goes!

AG

I discussed the dream with T tonight. She interprets all of the images of our dreams as aspects of ourselves and said that Dr. X represents my own strength in carrying myself through this and everything else. The children represent the freedom that I never had. AG, I like your interpretation better as it meant more to me but I can see her point of view as well.

Tonight I made a real point to connect with my T. We talked about my relationship with my dad a lot and various events from my childhood. It made a difference. I feel good about the work we did tonight and I haven't felt that in a long time.

SprinterGal

SprintingGal,
I'm really glad that you are connecting with your T. The most important thing for our healing is having a good connection with our Ts. And I love those sessions where you walk out feeling like you did good work. Good for you! Enjoy the feeling, you really deserve it.

AG

HELLO EVERYONE, LONG TIME NO TALKY TO YOU ALL...BEEN DEALING WITH STUFF AND TRYING TO SURVIVE THE PRESENT!...HOPE YOU ALL HAVE A WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING! I AM THANKFUL FOR ALL MY NEW FRIENDS HERE ON THE FORUM...I DID NOT GET TO SEE MR.T YESTERDAY...IT MADE FOR A DEPRESSED EVENING...BUT MS.T WAS VERY UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE WHOLE THING..SHE IS REALLY GOOD FOR ME!...PEACE OUT MY FRIENDS!!...TALK TO YOU SOON!...CHARLOTTE

Hi there

This is a first post but I've been reading this topic for a few weeks now and yes, you've guessed, I too have the dreaded transference!! This topic has helped me to understand a lot but this Transference is making me ill for the last 6 weeks with one thing after another. It feels like I'm cheating on my husband because I spend all my time thinking about when I'm going to see my T next and how I'm going to talk to him about it, whether or not he has feelings for me etc etc - all the good stuff you guys have been discussing. We've had one physical 'holding' and boy I didn't want to leave it at that. So I upped the courage to tell him a week later and now I can't get rid of my feelings for him and the only way I can describe it is torture.

Lady of Shallot

I totally understand what you are saying. I was thinking of my T all the time, dressing differently just to go to my session, and just wondering about her all the time. I was making good progress, I was more positive and was working through things. The problem was when I realized what was going on I sort of back pedalled and just shut down. I know I have to bring this up but I am a little scared about it.

I am glad you had the courage to mention it to your T, do you mind me asking how that worked out with him.

Kat

Lady of Shallot,
Welcome to the boards! As you've already figured out,you're not alone here, a lot of people completely understand how you feel. You're not cheating because you have feelings about your T,but I understand it can feel this way. My T is always telling me that instead of beating myself up for what my feelings are, that it might be better to examine the feelings to see how I'm reacting and what I'm reacting to.It's usually good advice. Its actually a healthy sign in therapy when you feel this way, that you're wanting connection. And it was very brave of you to tell him how you felt, and if I may echo Katskills, how did he respond?

AG

Kat and AG

Thanks for your interest. Well, as I expected, he wasn't surprised. You see, I have been away for a few weeks and for some of those I was unable to attend a session so we kept in touch by text and phone. This was a completely new departure and some of those texts included the word 'love' as did some of the phone conversations so I reckon this got the transference juices going and I began to fall.....anyway, we - or should I say I, are still skirting around it a little but at least it's out there. I could still $%^^ him in a heartbeat though given half the chance so I'm keeping my physical distance!!!

Lady

I uh... haven't actually felt _erotic_ transference to Tfella before. But um...just a question here. Does it ever feel _odd_ to feel this way about someone you don't know a thing about?

I ask because I find the amount of trust (paternal-style) I have in Tfella to be vaguely alarming, sometimes. So Lady of Shallot, when you and AG were talking about erotic transference and love, I was wondering. I mean, I know that's why this thread is called "transference" instead of "love and lust", but... it still brought it to mind. How do you deal with having these feelings and not knowing the people involved, really?

Any notions?

Wynne,
Hmmm...Does it feel odd to feel this way about my T? You bet. At first I was faced with the fact that I know absoultely nothing about this woman and yet I loved her. I have been very uncomfortable with my feelings toward her erotic and maternal. After all I'm not gay, and she is not my mother. It felt obsurd to say the least and I critisized myself for feeling this way. It took a _long_ time to come to terms with and accept my transference love for her, of which I _still_ struggle with.

I think I've said it before that when I am sitting there in her presence and I have all I can do to keep from climbing on her lap like the little child I feel like I am, it gets pretty uncomfortable. She's maybe 10 years older than me and I find no reason why I should feel such a maternal pull for her other than the trust and initmacy that comes with the territory. And to know so little about our T allows us to determine how they fulfill our "ideal" maternal or paternal needs. While they must offer some authenticity they need to leave enough for us to fill in the blanks, so to speak. So I'm not so sure if it is about "dealing" with it as much as it seems to be about just working with it and going with the flow.

Did that answer your question? Or did I totally miss it?

Wynne

I can answer that in a different sense than JM. I am gay and my T is a female. I am totally attracted to her even though she is not my type, at least what I thought was not my type. In session she did ask me what my type was and I did not have a direct answer. I went home to think about it, and alot of the qualities that I expressed were things that I see in her. Nothing shocking, just someone who is positive, caring, listens....hey is that not what we pay them for.

This is a problem for me, as I have pulled back in therapy because of these feelings. After making so much progress I stop myself.

Would I like to have a relationship with T. Sure I would like to ask her out for coffee, maybe go to a play or something. I am gay, she is straight...the boundaries, the conflict, the continuous problem.

Kat

quote:

Nothing shocking, just someone who is positive, caring, listens....hey is that not what we pay them for.

Yes, but I also believe it is a genuine quality they possess too. It is more than just a skill you know? When an occupation is an art it has to come from the heart.

I am sorry that you are feeling so much conflict right now, Kat. It does ease up though. What you have with your T sounds genuine.

Lady of Shallot,

(I love the name and the poem. Very fitting for the topic at hand I think )

I haven't experience erotic transference for my T but do have very strong feelings for her and I of course envy anyone who gets to spend more than 45min a week with her. I think about her a lot and wonder what her life is like. Anything that she says or does that feels like even the slightest rejection sends me into a complete tailspin. I have also experienced strong positive transference feelings for other women that I have worked for or have learned from. The feelings are very powerful, torturous, and confusing. They are real and they won't be denied. Over the last few months since I have talked to my T about it and have talked to others here I have been able to own my transference and know that though the feelings are real they are also not what they seem. It is my past intruding in on my present and it happens to everyone all of the time. The intensity of the therapeutic relationship is especially fertile ground for transference to happen.

Some therapists welcome it and know how to handle it and others don't. We have had people on these boards with both kinds. It seems the therapists who have experience & training in using transference do a much better job handling it. That is one question I would ask your T: "Have you successfully dealt with transference before?" If not, then get him and yourself educated about it. The therapist must know what boundaries to put in place and how to keep them there firmly so that you will not get hurt. The T must also know how to deal with their own transference issues and hopefully is or has been in therapy themselves. This is another good question to ask.

So, in order to not write a novella here about all of this I want to refer you to two great websites that talk about transference, countertransference and erotic transference. I have found these along with Shrinklady's info on the topic to be extremely helpful. There is information in these articles that you are unlikely to get directly from your T so reading up on it at least helps clear up some of the confusion. Here are the links:

Transference & Countertransference: A Common Sense Perspective

About erotic transference - #1 - Falling in love with the therapist

About erotic transference - #2 - Acting on erotic transference/ countertransference

Transference - by our own Shrinklady

River

Thanks for the references. My guy is very grounded and welcomes my feelings as I welcome the opportunity to be honest.

Lady
(yes, an appropriate moniker)

Ugh. I ran into Dr. X out in public this week. Need support!

I saw him first even though he was some distance away from me, then he saw me, stumbled, smiled, changed his posture, and put on his detached doctor face. I didn't smile and acted like I didn't care but a million feelings went through me: fear, excitement, lust, shame, embarrassment, and major vulnerability. I suddenly felt extremely exposed. We passed each other and he looked down at me somberly, saying, "How are you." We both kept going and I said, "Good" over my shoulder. Then I had the urge to run away as fast and as far as I could.

I talked to my T about it the day it happened but she didn't have much insight. She tells me that "it is like having a crush on a celebrity because you will never know him."