Dear JNYC-

First of all, let me say that the desperation in your post is evident. I feel for you deeply and am glad that you have reached out to a community of people who accept you as you are, just because you are. I know this is a sensitive subject for you, but please know that I feel deeply for you and my words are an effort to help, not hurt you any further.

I understand you so deeply because I am a straight female who had a transference experience with another straight female. Our relationship did turn sexual, and, while it felt like it was everything I had ever wanted all rolled into one, it was exactly what I DID NOT need. That experience, though it felt right at first, was devastatingly difficult and further harmed me- added much more pain to my already painful existence. I tell you this, not only to identify with you, but to hopefully take some of the mystery and power from the transference; when acted upon, transference feelings NEVER live up to what we imagine in our heads.

I say that, but at the same time, I do not discount how very real your feelings are, often overwhelmingly so I'm sure. But the key is to remember that transference is about you. I know it feels like your chiro is at the center of it all, but what is it that makes him so attractive (I don't mean sexually) to you? I encourage you to think and isolate what it is that draws you to him. What is it about him that makes you feel warm and interested? The way he cares for you? The way he treats you? His desire to help you, etc? Once you can begin to determine some of those things, you might try comparing some of those traits to what you did/didn't get from you mother and/or father on another significant person in your life. What was your childhood like? Were you attended to? Were your feelings honored? Did you long for anything from either of your parents that they, for some reason, could not or would not give? Have you ever experienced a similar but less intense transference experience with someone else before now?

Please note, that while I list all of these things to think about one right after the other, I do not do so flippantly. These questions take time to really sink in and take even more time to discover answers to. This is something that I believe is best done while in relationship with a therapist. Your P, from the way you describe him, does not seem to have a very realistic view of transference. On my first appointment with my T, I told her that if she was going to tell me that I could never see the woman I had the sexual experience with again, that I didn't want to waste her time, and I would leave right then. It simply was not an option. How can he ask you to give up something you have so obviously been looking for? My T assured me that she would not ask me to do that, that she wouldn't even think of it. If his only answer to you was to stop seeing your chiro, you might need to look for another T or P.

What I am going to say next might be a little scary, but bear with me for a moment. Also, feel free to send me angry emoticons, as I welcome any reaction that you have and want to know if I offend you...

If you decide to look for a new T or P, you might consider looking for one who is knowledgable about transference and someone who seems to have some of the same qualities of your chiro. Right now, your chiro is trying to set boundaries for you by telling you that he can't be friends with you, but is also trying to accept you by continuing to see you as a patient. While I commend his efforts, he is most likely not trained in handling transference to the depths of which you are experiencing it. If you can recreate the transference with someone who is trained, attuned and boundaried with you, there is a greater chance that you will be able to fully work through what to root of the transference is.

And if you can't recreate it, that's definitely okay too, but no matter what, you need someone who is willing to look deeply into why you are so drawn to your chiro. There is a school of thought, which experience has made me a member of, that suggests that the only way to work through transference feelings is to be open with them (preferrably to a T), feel the full range of emotions they bring up, and explore where they came from. Only with understanding, emotional support and emotional freedom can you change old, engrained ways of thinking and feeling.

Lastly, I find myself very moved by your bravery. I know it takes a lot of strength to be as honest as you are- with your chiro, with us, with yourself. I know you are in a scary place right now, probably feeling like everything is turned upside down, but I encourage you to walk further into the world of self discovery and to find out what your relationship with your chiro is really trying to tell you. I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with my response, and I hope that you continue to share your journey with us. Don't forget to give yourself credit, JNYC, you are asking hard questions that you do not know the answer to and that takes enormous courage.

-CT

No CT, I am not angry at all. I thank you so much for your response. It makes a lot of sense. My psychiatrist has been helpful to some extent. We discussed many things in our first session which was almost 2 hours long.
Not to get off topic here, but I recently had my first prostate exam. It was with a new primary care physician that I had chosen and he made it into a funny experience for me. Since it was a funny story, I told it to anyone who would listen. Last Friday I had a really bad pain in my right hip. I panicked and called my chiro immediately. He saw me and took some xrays. While we walked to the xray room, I told him my prostate story. After he xrayed me, he iced my back, then massaged it and did his usual thing. My psychiatrist wanted to know why I told him this story. He asked if there was any sexual tension between us!! I said no and asked why. Well he said that the chiro was massaging my back and I was telling him a story about my prostate. I told him no, that the story came about 10 minutes before the massage. He then asked if I ever fantasized about him. So we've been down the homosexual path. Yes, I think my chiro is attractive, but no, I don't want to sleep with him.
Well, I have to say that most people seem to agree that I don't have to leave my chiropractor at all. That's a relief to me.

I was always second best in my father's eyes. My sister always came first. After my parents separated when I turned 18, he took my sister on vacation and left me home. I was working and he used the excuse that I couldn't get off work. Then why didn't he make up for it at another time? I was never a normal boy gorwing up. I was into the arts and not sports. I don't think I was the boy he wanted. So my theory is that my chiro has become a father figure. At a time when I was very scared and vulnerable, he cared for me and comforted me (with words, never physically). He was so kind and gentle. I've never known any male who could be this kind and gentle, especially at a young age. I was practically hooked immediately. He always noticed when I got a haircut. He even noticed if I wore new shoes, or pants. Things most guys would never notice or ask about. As far as I know, he a very normal male. I know he likes sports and he likes to drink and gamble. Things I do not like so I know deep down that we could never be friends. I just don't know why I cry over him so much. I am getting better, but I still think my psychiatrist is pushing me too hard. I see him on Tuesday and I am going to do my best to prove to him that I am getting better. I had a really bad day on Thursday. I was crying a lot and I told him so. So now he's really pushing for me to terminate. I don't think that should be held against me. I feel better today and I might feel even better tomorrow. Don't I deserve a chance to prove that I can do this without termination?
Thank you for calling me brave. I don't feel very brave at the moment. I feel scared and alone.
Oh, and this is something I can never tell my wife. She would probably tell me to stop seeing the chiro since she was against it from the start, or she would use it against me somehow.
Only my mom, my uncle and a good friend know what is going on right now. I can't even tell my co-workers.
Thanks for the advice. I just might have to find a new psychiatrist. If he doesn't let up this week, then he is gone.

Joseph,
Welcome to the boards and I'm going to have to agree with CT, it was very brave of you to post and talk about what you're going through.

I think that what you're experiencing in your transference could be in response to an insecure attachment with your father. (OK, I'm really big on the whole attachment thing, hence my name but my T figuring out my attachment issues was a huge breakthrough and has led to a lot of change on my part.)

OK, first, I really believe this isn't about your wanting a romantic or sexual relationship with your chiro, I think that you are having an intense attraction to him because he is holding out the hope of finally getting your unmet needs met. We are biologically driven to attach even as infants in order to develop and form healthy ways of relating to both ourselves and others. When that doesn't happen with a significant attachment figure, we don't stop trying to fulfill those needs, we keep looking.

You found someone that was providing the kind of care and attention that you needed and wanted from your dad. Of course you're drawn to him. A big part of why this is happening with your chiropracter is because he IS caring for you. It's triggering a very young response. One of the reasons behind attachment is that as a newborn or infant child, we will literally die if we do not stay close to our attachment figure. So when these unmet needs are felt again, they come with all the intensity of life and death. That is why this feels so consuming for you, to many parts of your brain as you experience these emotions, it is literally a life and death issue. That tends to make you concentrate all your resources.

I also think you are experiencing very powerful grief. When we get the care and attention that we long for, it's wonderful but its also a very powerful spotlight illuminating what we didn't receive from the people who should have provided it and there is an intense amount of grief around that. And its often grief that has been held a long time within us because without the secure attachment we are longing for, we didn't even have the resources that would allow us to feel and process that grief.

I know you feel crazy and confused, but when looked at within the right context, what you are feeling makes absolutely perfect sense and in many ways is a healthy sign. You are still reaching out for connection and attempting to get your needs met. That's what a healthy human being is supposed to do.

I want to recommend a couple of books that really helped me when I started dealing with transference and attachment (I'm big on that too). I would also try looking around the boards and reading some old posts especially the transference threads. There are a lot of people dealing with the issue here and there is a lot of good info. I hope you'll keep coming and that you'll find the same help and support here that the rest of us have found.

General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis et al This book explains the neurobiological basis of attachment and has a great chapter on dealing with it in therapy. It's well-written and very accessible for the layman.

Parenting from the Inside Out by Daniel Seigal and Mary Hartzell This book discusses attachment and how it plays out in our parenting but is easily transferable to what we experience in therapy. This has some more difficult passages but is written in such a way that its easy to skip those parts. This book was instrumental for me in realizing that there really was nothing wrong with me except that I had unmet needs and that its still possible to heal from that.

AG

Thanks so much for the response. The grief part makes a lot of sense. I do feel as if it's a life or death situation. When I cry, I sob, it's not just a few little tears. I feel as if I want to scream and usually have to cover my mouth. It's very painful.
I just wish there was an easy way to get over this. I don't know what's going to happen to me once treatments stop. I know I'll have to see my chrio from time to time for maintenance, but will I be able to handle the separation again? I don't know. All I know is that this is quite possibly the scariest thing I have ever experienced.

Joseph,
I can believe its the scariest thing you have ever experienced. I'm doing very deep work right now in therapy facing my grief and at my last session told my T that it was really hard and it told me it was probably the "hardest thing I would ever have to face." You're not imagining the intensity or overreacting.

I understand the wanting to scream. I have at times felt myself experiencing such intense grief that I am clenched and silently screaming and then realized the next day that I actually ache all over. This is difficult stuff.

I really think that it is important that you are working with someone that can understand the intensity of what you're going through, and why its so intense without pathologizing it. And can contain your emotions. You're going to need help to face these emotions. I'm not sure if its the P you're seeing now or not, but I think you're going to need that.

AG

Yeah, I always knew it was the chiro. Imagine going through this and wondering about your own sexuality. It scared me even more. I thought I would have to leave my wife and find a man to be happy with. So I guess you could say this is a triple whammy. There is no one who really understands how I feel. I haven't come across any man who has had transference with another man. Woman to woman transference I would say is probably more common because women are more sensitive in general. I've been very sensitive my entire life. I can cry at the drop of a hat! There are times I've had to hold back tears when my boss has to reprimand me. UGH! It's so embarrassing. So I was very vulnerable when I began treatment with the ciro. I can easily see how I fell prey to this. I don't want to blame my chiro at all because I really appreciate how he handled me. It's not his fault or mine that I fell into this even though I do feel incredibly guilty. I know I shouldn't, but it's still me that this happened to, no one else. Anyway, as I was saying, I can't blame my chiro. I am glad he was gentle with me. I am still in awe of him. I seem to have put him up on a pedestal. I really think he is an amazing guy. I've never met someone so young who is so normal and yet so caring, especially to another guy. I honestly don't know how I am going to get over him. Every time I think of him, I think of how great he is. It's so hard to knock him off that pedestal. I don't even want to do that because he is so nice. I almost wish he were an asshole in real life so I would have a reason to hate him but I get a feeling he is a nice guy in real life too and not just to his patients. Oy, this is sooo frustrating. No matter how I look at it, I still get upset.

I'm having a so-so weekend. I was checking out the local gyms and I am psyched to get started. I'll be joining and I can't wait to start working out. I'm hoping it will improve my mood and get my mind off my chiro.

"In that case, what you see in him, what makes you put him up on a pedestal, are characteristics that he has and that you wish you had."

You hit the nail on the head with that one. I always wanted to be more like him and less like me. But how do I get over that?

quote:

Sorry, i am rambling but it goes something like that.

Oh HB
You are not rambling. You say it all so eloquently. I need to read, and re-read, and re-read what you just said, as it is something I really need to hear.

PL

Thanks Hummingbird. My friend (a female) tells me that I am better than most guys because I am so sensitive. I am almost the total opposite of my chiropractor. He's a normal, average guy who happens to me gentle and caring. He's into sports (I am not), he likes to drink (I do not), he gambles (I hate it), he seems like a very secure person (I am definitely not), he's more masculine than I am and he went to college and has a career (I went to college for one year and then jumped from job to job and don't have a career). Every time I see him, I wish I were him. I just can't help it. I don't know why I am comparing myself to a doctor. I've seen lots of doctors who are around my age and never had this problem. I guess it's because the session are one and one, he's touching me and he's talking to me at the same time. And I was very vulnerable and scare when I first started. It took weeks for me to get used to seeing a chiropractor. Anyway, I don't know if it even matters how it happened, I just want o get out of it without losing a great doctor. Depsite the transferece, I am just too comfortable with him. I don't want to lose that and that's the part that makes me crazy. I get upset that this whole transference thing happened in the first place. I understand that I didn't do it on purpose, but that doesn't help ease my guilt. If I wasn't so scared, sensitive and vulnerable, I wouldn't be in this position at all!
Wow, I actually managed to type that without crying! Maybe I am feeling better! :-)

Hi Joseph...I do hope you are feeling better. Maybe you are now understanding more of why you are feeling this way and it makes more sense to you. The way you talk about your C... that he likes sports, likes to have a drink and to gamble and you don't... well is this perhaps what you think your Dad expected of you? You say you don't believe you are masculine. Drinking, gambling and playing football don't make a person masculine. You could be a dancer and be masculine, just look at Baryshnikov who was very masculine. This comes from inside you and not what you do or what you like. I think you are judging yourself by what your Dad thought you should be and not who you are with your own very good qualities. And so I think the tears are grief and it needs to be expressed. You say you don't have a career just a job and you don't have a college degree. I only had a 2 year degree and wanted more and so I went back to school (and I'm not that young LOL). You could do this too. I take on-line classes because it fits into my schedule. I think right now you are having a bit of a self-esteem issue which goes back to childhood and is causing you to attach to your C because he makes you feel good, he treats you with respect and shows interest in you. He is meeting your needs which were not met by your caregivers early in your life.

I would say that if your P is not helping you to explore some of these issues then you should find a good psychologist who is used to working in these areas. I know it may be hard to do but P's are necessary when you need a medication but T's (Psychologists, therapists, LCSW's) are better for exploring your issues and childhood. And hopefully you will find one that understands transference.

I do hope your pain eases and you find what you need. In the meantime, I hope the board provides you some comfort.

True North

quote:

The way you talk about your C... that he likes sports, likes to have a drink and to gamble and you don't... well is this perhaps what you think your Dad expected of you? You say you don't believe you are masculine. Drinking, gambling and playing football don't make a person masculine. You could be a dancer and be masculine, just look at Baryshnikov who was very masculine. This comes from inside you and not what you do or what you like. I think you are judging yourself by what your Dad thought you should be and not who you are with your own very good qualities. And so I think the tears are grief and it needs to be expressed.

I think right now you are having a bit of a self-esteem issue which goes back to childhood and is causing you to attach to your C because he makes you feel good, he treats you with respect and shows interest in you. He is meeting your needs which were not met by your caregivers early in your life.

Yeah, I know those things don't make you masculine, but I always find it difficult to relate to other men. I never like to socialize with people I don't know. It always makes me nervous. Sometimes I even get migraines because of the stress.
Well I was always a strange child. I tried to play basketball and that was a big failure. I did like to take dance lessons as a child (tap and jazz). As I got older, it was music. I loved to sing and act. Anyway, where my father is concerned, my sister was always #1 and I came second. (now they don't speak so I benefit from that) I really think I need to discuss that with the psychiatrist.

How are things going Joseph? When is your next appointment with your P? Don't forget to keep us updated if you feel like it- I don't want you to feel alone out there.

-CT

Oh, thanks for asking. I just saw him this afternoon. It went well. I am feeling better and I think he saw that. I have to email him after my appointment with my chiropractor tomorrow and then we decide when my next appointment with the psychiatrist is. He saw that I was hopeful that I will get over this. I am anxious about tomorrow. I know the minute I see my chiro, I fall right back into it. Anyway, I have something to distract me a little. I joined a gym yesterday so I am anxious about that. I have an appointment with a personal trainer tomorrow after my chiro appointment. It's a one-time thing for new members.
I'll post again after my appointments.

quote:

Yeah, I know those things don't make you masculine, but I always find it difficult to relate to other men. I never like to socialize with people I don't know. It always makes me nervous. Sometimes I even get migraines because of the stress.

This struck me. My X-husband gets totally anxious when he's having to socialize with more than one person that he doesn't know. He doesn't get a migraine, he sweats buckets, which only makes him more anxious. He doesn't play sports (not even as a teenager, he doesn't really drink and likes making sculpture. I would never, in a million years, consider him unmanly. I've worked in and out of the theater for over a decade and worked with men who live and breath acting and not much else; again, very masculine. In addition, what women wouldn't want a man that has a job and is in touch with his feelings?

Good luck with your work ahead Joseph -- scary it will be BUT you will learn so much! It's always wonderful when you begin to shift your perspectives.

quote:

Originally posted by QueenGrey:
He doesn't play sports (not even as a teenager, he doesn't really drink and likes making sculpture. I would never, in a million years, consider him unmanly. I've worked in and out of the theater for over a decade and worked with men who live and breath acting and not much else; again, very masculine. In addition, what women wouldn't want a man that has a job and is in touch with his feelings?

Good luck with your work ahead Joseph -- scary it will be BUT you will learn so much! It's always wonderful when you begin to shift your perspectives.

Well, like I said, I didn't mean that those qualities make a man manly, I was just saying that is makes it difficult when socializing with men I don't know. It makes me feel different.
And I learned about women liking men in touch with their feelings. I've cried in front of about 3 different women over the last few months and 2 of them loved it. My friend thinks it's great and an acquaintance of mine loved me for it. :-) I guess I should cry more often, it would make me a chick magnet. LOL!!

Talking to a psychiatrist has been very interesting. It brought up lots of things that have bothered me over the years. Not sure if any of them relate to my transference. I am starting to believe that the only reason my transference happened was because I was really scared of seeing a chiropractor (I now know there is nothing to be scared of, but at the time, I didn't know what he was going to do to me) and I was desperate for someone to help me get rid of my back pain. I was very upset that I still had pain after seeing 2 physical therapists. The chiro was great at relieving my fears and making me feel comfortable. And even though I cry over him, I wouldn't change one minute of it. He was wonderful and I thank him for it all the time. Anyway, I think I am slowly getting better and time will heal me. At the moment, I don't have any future visits planned with my psychiatrist. I have to let him know how today goes. I am so nervous about going to a gym that I haven't had much time to think about my chiro appointment. I guess that's a good thing. I'll post more later.

Just wanted to update everyone on how I am doing. As of this week, I have to see my chiropractor every other week instead of once a week. Naturally I cried about it. I am getting better, but it still hurts. I miss him terribly but I do realize I have to get over it. I can't see him on a regular basis forever and ever. I joined a gym 2 weeks ago so that is helping to distract me. I am very dedicated to losing 20 more lbs so I don't think about my chiropractor as much as I used to.

JNYC- I'm glad the gym is helping. I hope you successfully transition to the new schedule with your C. Keep us informed!

-CT

I'd like to think I am doing better, but I am not sure. I still cry over him and at times it feels less intense and other times it feels the same. All I know is that I am still confused. I know the psychiatrist told me that I am not in love with my chiropractor and that it just feels like love, but sometimes I think I do really love him and I think I cry because I've never felt this way about a man and it confuses me. And the worse part is that it is a man I cannot have. But then I think about it and I've never been aroused sexually during our sessions and I've never fantasized about him so then I talk my self out of thinking it is real love. I just don't know what to do to get over this. I just started working out so I am hoping it distracts me more and more as time goes on. I start with a personal trainer on Sunday so I am hoping that will help even more.
Thanks for asking everyone. I appreciate it.