I don't really want to get in the middle of this, but there's one thing I want to say.

quote:

Most importantly, it's not what your parents want or think, or what your T wants you to do, or what some anonymous people on the internet think... It's your life, do what YOU want.

Echo, while this is a very true statement, I just don't think it's that simple when it comes to this forum. Sharing as much as we do on here...it automatically makes all of these "anonymous people" become more than just anonymous. They are now people who know some intimate details that most others in our lives don't know. That instantly makes everyone's responses more liable to hit a nerve or be perceived as insensitive. That is why I full-heartedly agree with AG that great care must be taken to ensure that we say things with sensitivity. This may not be how you want things in the name of furthering your knowledge, but that should also be something you're sensitive to, Echo...that we are all at very, very different places in our ideas of self-exploration. Some just need to know that there's a soul out there listening, and some want advice and complete, unbarred honesty. With all you've said on this thread, you've made it clear that while it is Frog's choice, you do not approve at all of the situation and seem (in my opinion, please keep that in mind) to be offering contingent support. As in, you will not bear to hear her if she is in distress from something that arises out of her situation if she does not get herself out of what you see as a bomb waiting to go off. There doesn't need to be a line drawn between support and agreement of choices. We can all be here to hear Frog's pain, and that does not mean we have to say, "See, I told you!" We can only be responsible for our own changes, and sometimes just the knowledge that we won't be berated for any choices we make is enough to catalyze the change and encourage more self-exploration, just like you advocate.

I've probably just placed myself right in the middle..

echo, I am just going to say, that you really seem in all sincerity to be unaware of the hurtful tone of your comments. Your comments come across as kind of superior or like you are thinking that the people who are reading here have no feelings at all as they respond interiorly to what you are writing. We all make mistakes like that on this forum from time to time. Most people, if it were brought to their attention as Froggy has done, would apologize! If you are truly a well-meaning person, then I'd suggest taking a look back over your posts, and read them carefully as if someone else had addressed them to you while you were in a vulnerable state of mind...and then see if you still feel really, fully good about everything you said, and the way that you said it. I think it's really hurtful to say that people are claiming victim status on this forum, for one thing. You made it sound like you think we are all a bunch of namby-pamby wimpy babies, who go crying to eachother even though what we really deserve is our just desserts when something got screwed up in therapy. Did you realize that was the way it came across? I think its hurtful to claim that others are just looking for attention, enmeshed with their parents, passive-aggressive, their therapy is a train-wreck, their T's are just using them for money and a good salary, in therapy for too long, assume that others are "just nodding sympathetically and patting eachother" instead of saying truthfully what they think, and any number of accusations you make. Maybe, it's just a mistake with wording things. I sincerely hope so! I assume that it's because you are unaware of how it feels to be on the receiving end of such comments. I think you can say everything that you are saying here, offer your opinion on the situation, of course! But this is not just black and white, there is room for disagreement, different interpretaion, we don't have all the infomation, etc. And there is a huge difference between what you said and the way you said it...and what AG said and the way she said it. In case you haven't noticed, your opinions on the issue tend to be in the same kind of vein. Why the need to hit people over the head with what you think, when they are hurting?
Let me explain- what if I were to say to you, just now: "Could this be a passive-aggressive bid for confrontational control at everyone's expense?" or: "Could this be an outburst that has more to do with jealosy, than real input?" How would that make you feel? Angry, I bet! But I wouldn't say that...I choose to think you really do not understand what you are doing- and that your comments are well-meant. That is what we try to do here, for one another.

A little gentleness and care in the way that you put things, never hurts.

fwiw-I still stand by my own *opinion,* that Frog is in a less-than-ideal situation, but it certainly doesn't look like a train-wreck waiting to happen, in my opinion- since we have now apparently made this into a thread about offering our black and white judgements rather than our thoughts and feelings about someone's situation.

I'm sorry, but I just had to say all of that. I have no hard feelings, but I feel really badly for Froggy, who started this thread to get support, and not to be so harshly judged, and yes- it probably does feel like attacked- when one is on the receiving end.

BB

Hm I’ve come back a bit late. Frog I wanted to reply to your reply to me yesterday but I see the thread has become a bit fraught and I really don’t want to add to any misunderstandings.

So instead I want to say that I think you have a clear and insightful understanding of your situation and that you’ve taken all sorts of things into account - and that it’s perfectly fine to be able to talk about the feelings and anxieties that come up for you about this peculiar set up with your parents and T without feeling like you have to actively DO something about it. I also don’t think it’s THAT peculiar, I am thinking of people who live in quite small places where it’s inevitable their T would know and be friends with people that the client also knows. Can make therapy difficult, but equally, I suspect it can also have a positive bearing on therapy.

You’ve made it clear that your T is being eminently professional about this, and that your parents aren’t in the game of using their friendship with T to manipulate or control you - so as far as I can see the only ‘problem’ is how it’s all making you feel - which is what therapy is all about in the first place isn’t it?

Frog you have been SO gracious and accepting in your replies, I really hope you don’t feel alienated and too hurt by this - sending you loads of hugs and support ((((( Frog )))))

LL

this answer is for echo. I`Ll have to reply to both Beebee and Kashely (oh, and LL- just saw your reply, we cross-posted, ok- so your words was precious to me now. If anyone wonders ewhats going on here, they should read your poster to get to the "core" of this, thanke you so much my dear LL) in another reply,(thank you for the support again and for stepping into this!) i just have to sort things out, and try to focus on one at a time, because this thread has kind of escalated and i dont even understand the half of it. So, no one is ignored, just wanting to "finish" this with echo.. thats a hard one though...

we just disagree echo. Thats it. And even though i (please believe me) have appreaciated your warnings and view on this, i have to have the right to stand up for myself and my therapist and my parents now, and say loud and clear that what you imply feels wrong in this case.

quote:

No, I don't think of you as a victim. Sometimes people (myself included) unconciously set themselves up in situations that from an outsider's view looks to be an inevitable disaster. Then when it all falls apart, they cry out "Help! I'm a victim!" It seems to happen a lot around here. (But I guess I'm supposed to just watch and bite my tongue and not try to warn you?)

quote:

echo- are you talking to me here, or to someone else? its hard to understand your comments. Have i given you that impression here, that i dont want you to speak? i have only answered your advice, with a true disagreement. i know you try to "warn me" but it doesnt seem like you are willing to accept that there is no reasons to warn me, and that i feel sure i am in a healty proffesional therapy, a relation which is healing and which i have gained PLENTY of help from.

quote:

IF you quit therapy, there's no reason he can't be what is commonly referred to as a "family friend", a kindly "uncle" that supports you and offers advice when asked. I'm not saying eject him from your life forever (as if that were an option in this case - he'll probably be joining you for Christmas dinner this year ).

quote:

...well, actually echo, YES a part of the boundaries are to not involve personal after ended therapy, there is no way my T or I would have kept contact, like the way you suggest (?) as my "Uncle" or family-friend". No way, thats not professional at all, IMP. When i terminate we wont keep in contact, thats part of the contract and the boundaries. I think this suggestion of yours are actually more unprofessional and implying some cross-boundaries. And whats about the comment on christmans dinner? (did you joke about this, or am i missing the point of you somments again?)

quote:

I think you'd be better off working on your "existential crises caused partly by the moving-out and seperation from home and parents" (ahem, knew I was on to something there ) with someone who isn't vacationing and dining with those parents.

quote:

what did you mean, saying you knew you were on to something here? do you refer to what you called an enmenshed relation to my parents??

I`ve vent from being depressed to well-coping. everything proofs that i work good with THIS T and i doubt (seriously) that i would have found a better one to work with.

the "vacation" was a WORKK-RELATED TRIP where they contributed to a psyhotherapy conferance in russia. (a long way from here btw) they are NOT close friends, first of all collegas. Just needed to emphasize that fact.

quote:

3x a week, and you plan to do this for years? Well, that's job security for your T anyway, isn't it...

quote:

...what? this comment echo, what are you exactly saying here? sorry for being a bit immature now, but actually my T doesnt need that "security" at all- He`s almost 70 years old, is one of the most well-known and popular therapist in this country- and have plenty of people whom would like to see him, so there is no reason to imply what you do here.. i might be wrong about what you meant about this comment thouh, i just dont understand the things you imply in this vague way. and my english keps me from getting all the fine nuances, i guess..

echo, no hard feelings ok? i dont want this thread to become a fight. Thats is not the intention of this thread. And again: its brave of you to say what you mean, espescially if you do it out of concern about me, but some of the reactions here are accurate IMO, about your tone. Do you realize how much your words effects me? how much "power" your voice have here? it has. Kashely is right when she pointed out, that you guys are much more than just a bunch of anonym people, and we all should be aware of and take that role on with great concern and like AG wrote and Beebee wrote, - with humility and humble respect for another.

i just need to add, that i do take lots of responsibility for the misunderstandings here, as i started the thread with writing things in a rush and in a heatet state of mine, and that my english-lacks have caused some mis-leading into all this, as i know i might have written stuff that i in the next reply have "denied" and so on.. sorry for that. Its hard to avvoid.

i know you all understand this, adn maybe would tell me not to sorry anything, but i want to anyway, because i am after all responsible for making this thread and for causing the heated debate here in a way. so. hereby.

but i would also add that i think its been a good debate as well, some questions being arised have been very important, and its important that we learn to disagree here, and allways encourrage people to speak up, and still be good and gentle with each other.
I learn a lot from being here, and reading about all this.


Beebee- you are such a good person and i feel you have this warm concern for me that moves me. i am also deeply thankful that you believe me and my capability to understand this situation, and like LL wrote, that you guys believe me when i say that this therapy is working and is healthy. And like LL pointed out, this case aint that ubnormal either.
Its good to feel that you see that i am mature and have enough insight to make my own opinion about this. really. Its like a counter-force to the feeling of being dismisses as a patient, and assumed to be just a naiv child whom doesnt know she`s being in a harmful setting. Thats not the case with me.
thanks again for following up Beebee.
and kashely too- i know you are struggling as well with the vacation fear now in your therapy- its amazing that you found your way in here, to voice your reaction and i take it as a good sign of support. you seem like a really wise one- and your voice is good for this forum to have. Glad you are here. and take good care of your self- (i know Beebee has givin you alot of support on your thread, and i am sure thats been helpful! glad to see that!)

(((you guys)))

ps: tomorrow is my session with T. i am very nervous about it. I want to tell him everything thats been going on here, and what all of you people think, but i am scared to admit that i use this forum (he`S not familiar with the foum activity of mine) and have started a tread with the name "trapped between T and my parents"...
but i will definitly continue this conversation with him, because there are indeed stuff to talk more about, and feelings to exploore and question to be arised... is it a good idea to bring this forum-conversaton up with T??

((((((((((( Frog ))))))))))

LL

Edit: Oops cross posted - in answer to your last question - yes I think it would be a good idea to bring up this thread with your T - though you don't necessarily have to tell him details of the forum itself (although I doubt if he would go searching for it anyway.) It is after all about the very thing that's been worrying you already.

Frog, all the best with the session tomorrow

LL

echo, i think my respond to you was too harsh and i apologize for that, let me know if you read it and if you felt that i misunderstood you on purpose, ok? and ì will delete the post, or at least just let you know i still- despite what it must seem like- appreaciate your honesty and contrubution on this thread.

Froggy

I'm sorry, I sort of kept out of the debate because I'm feeling a bit vulnerable myself. FWIW I think it's good to share our opinions in the caring spirit of the forum and you have obviously received those given to you with a lot of thought and concern.

I just wanted to reiterate something Lampers said

quote:

I am thinking of people who live in quite small places where it’s inevitable their T would know and be friends with people that the client also knows. Can make therapy difficult, but equally, I suspect it can also have a positive bearing on therapy.

That would match my situation completly...I know 3 people (2 reasonably well and 1 very well) who work for T and H is also a colleague though in a different/related field. It's never been an issue for me, T and I have good boundaries and actually it's sometimes actually been really helpful. Her confidentiality lies with me so I feel totally safe, she sees H and I together sometimes, actually it's reassuring for both me and her I think that she knows him, knows he's a very supporting and a caring person. If you live in a small community this is often how it is - there can be some disadvantages but I've not found many - but T and I have a grounding of mutual trust I think.

Froggy I hope this might help you a little - I can see how it might be awkward, but if your instinct is that it's working ok despite little blips, them maybe trust that.

Sorry I'm late to this, I hope it's been a little help, have lost a little confidence posting recently,

starfish

quote:

i just need to add, that i do take lots of responsibility for the misunderstandings here, as i started the thread with writing things in a rush and in a heatet state of mine,

Not your fault at all froggy, and I don’t want you to feel that you have to take responsibility for any of this! The whole discussion was about things that have been going on for a long time on the forum, and it just happened that your thread was hijacked to bring these issues out. I’m sorry about that, all of these issues should have been talked about somewhere else.

dear starfish- i am honored that you joined in here, sinse you strugglings with posting lately.. Thats totally ok, you know? I hope you are doing ok? i totally get how hard it is to just pop into a long and kind of comlicated thread like this, so i am glad you did,(creds, i wouldnt dared to, thats for sure!) and yes starfish- your example is helpful, thanks for backing me up by sharing that experience. I am glad you also have a good and trustful relation with your T, and that you also can benefit from your situation. Its true that meny people cant avvoid knowing people that also T knows- and its lots of examles of good aspects about that as well.
Its good to have you back here starfish- i`Ll hope your confidence in posting will be better. Maybe it helps to hear that you are missed around...?


MacLove OK, good to be "updated"- thanks, i obviously had no idea about the things "goin on for a long time on the forum" (still dont know what exactly the issue is about though but you are right, that maybe somehting that discussion belongs to another thread-) I tend to not catch up these conflicts. Its totally Ok with me that little of it came out on these thread though.. i mean that. Thanks for "fillin me in" MacLove- it was important info

LL Said:

quote:

You’ve made it clear that your T is being eminently professional about this, and that your parents aren’t in the game of using their friendship with T to manipulate or control you - so as far as I can see the only ‘problem’ is how it’s all making you feel - which is what therapy is all about in the first place isn’t it?

Frog,

I completely agree with what LL said here. I don't see this as an issue other than in the way it is making you feel. I think as long as everyone maintains the boundaries around the professional interaction as you've described that the only issue to address here is the way it is making you feel and perhaps there can be some tweaking of the interactions between your parents and T if at all possible until a later time.

As for the rest of whatever is going on here, I'm going to refrain from any comments as I obviously am not privy to whatever history is being referred to.

Thanks froggy for your kind words Sometimes when I struggle a bit in T, I wonder who I am to offer any opinion to others as I seem to be in muddle myself.

I hope your session goes well tomorrow, despite your understandable anxiety. Remember froggy you need ever only tell him as much or as little as you are comfortable with, so don't feel obliged to tell all, ie your anxieties about his relationship with your parents AND the forum AND any opinions there might have been all in one sitting. Tell him none, some or all; but make sure it's because you want to and not because of any anxiety you might have picked up here

Goog luck froggy and thanks again,

starfishy

...starfish- struggling in Therapy never dismisses one from giving advices and opinions- rather the opposite IMO. Your opinion counts as much as the King of Rome.
I smiled when i read this, because you actually just qotet something my T tells me all the time (because i am drivin myself nuts when i plan to be able to "tell EVERYTHING")

quote:

you need ever only tell him as much or as little as you are comfortable with, so don't feel obliged to tell all

quote:

good. i`ll try to keep that in mind when i enter the T-room and probably will be totally filled up with plans/worries due to how i should approach the session... lol.


STRM- yeah, LL really knows how to summarize and pick up the core.. Thanks for qoting that, and for your opinion about all this. I am glad you here, i dont know if i said that directly to you here on the thread before..(or on forum at all-)
Hugs to you both, and thanks again.

Hi Frog,

I just wanted to offer an apology for not giving you more support about all of this in my last post. I could come up with reasons why, but there's really no excuse. I just want to say that I think you are really brave in how you approach your issues both on here and in therapy. I honestly have complete faith in you that you are never far off from knowing what you need to do that will be the best thing for you...it seems to me that if you felt like there was some conflict that was going to be a huge problem in your therapy, you would have sniffed it out a long time ago and dealt with it.

From what you've posted about your T, I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say (whatever you choose to post) about all of this.

Many hugs, Frog.

nicely said Kashley...

Froggy, I am so sorry that it was probably some of my or others junk spilled into your thread, Mac made a good point. Froggy, I hadn't thought about that veyr well. Many, amny apologies.

Love good luck, in your session, keep us posted!

LL and Starfish- you both rock, I hope I can say, ok,

BB

Blackbird, dearest Beebee..


I JUST SAW YOUR NEW THREAD, I AM SO TEMPTED TO REPLY TO IT, SINSE I FEEL A LOT OF THE REASONS YOU HAVE MADE THAT THREAD IS CAUSED BY THE DEBATE GOING ON HERE.


believe me, there is NO NEED for you to apologize. I wont allow you (i can of course only speak for myself, not echo in this case, or other ones i dont know about) but your contrubution on this thread have HELPED me. Big time. Ok?

I concider you as both wise and as a amazingly supportive soul. Print it out and put it on your wall Beebee.


So my kashley-friend: You are such a sweet soul, i am so thankful for your contribution, every one of them- i hope you saw my reply to you(?)-it was probably hard to find it, as its a part of a bigger reply, but know i havent ignored you! And i am well ware of your own T-battles going on right now and all your reasons... i hope you are doing ok? (when i get some time, i`ll read your thread and try do give back some of the support you gave me. I relate to you in many ways.) Thanks for telling me i am brave. That was cool of you to say, as i would like to think of myself as just that in therapy... tomorrow my "bravery" will be well tested i guess...(gulp) oh- and thank you for showing interest in my T`s reply to all this, i might come up with a update tomorrow, or none, depending on how it works out i guess.. have to just wait and see how it goes, i guess.

Huggin you both back

(((kashely)))
(((beebs))))

No, Froggy, not about this thread- just my own personal issues!

Let us know how your session goes...please!

Love,

BB

quote:

Originally posted by Frog:

quote:

No, I don't think of you as a victim. Sometimes people (myself included) unconciously set themselves up in situations that from an outsider's view looks to be an inevitable disaster. Then when it all falls apart, they cry out "Help! I'm a victim!" It seems to happen a lot around here. (But I guess I'm supposed to just watch and bite my tongue and not try to warn you?)

quote:

echo- are you talking to me here, or to someone else? its hard to understand your comments. Have i given you that impression here, that i dont want you to speak? i have only answered your advice, with a true disagreement. i know you try to "warn me" but it doesnt seem like you are willing to accept that there is no reasons to warn me, and that i feel sure i am in a healty proffesional therapy, a relation which is healing and which i have gained PLENTY of help from.

No Frog, am I not referring specifically to you, but more generally to many of "us" (human beings) on (and off) this forum. Often people can fall into a victim role in life and then refuse to see that there were warning signs along the way that they chose to ignore. I sincerely hope this never applies to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Frog:

quote:

IF you quit therapy, there's no reason he can't be what is commonly referred to as a "family friend", a kindly "uncle" that supports you and offers advice when asked. I'm not saying eject him from your life forever (as if that were an option in this case - he'll probably be joining you for Christmas dinner this year ).

quote:

...well, actually echo, YES a part of the boundaries are to not involve personal after ended therapy, there is no way my T or I would have kept contact, like the way you suggest (?) as my "Uncle" or family-friend". No way, thats not professional at all, IMP. When i terminate we wont keep in contact, thats part of the contract and the boundaries. I think this suggestion of yours are actually more unprofessional and implying some cross-boundaries.

OK this is good news! I take responsibility for misunderstanding your description of the relationship between your parents and your therapist. I thought they were much more friendly. Not seeing him again when you finish therapy is of course more appropriate. I was thinking it would be inevitable, though, and I stand corrected.

quote:

Originally posted by Frog:

quote:

3x a week, and you plan to do this for years? Well, that's job security for your T anyway, isn't it...

quote:

...what? this comment echo, what are you exactly saying here? sorry for being a bit immature now, but actually my T doesnt need that "security" at all- He`s almost 70 years old, is one of the most well-known and popular therapist in this country- and have plenty of people whom would like to see him, so there is no reason to imply what you do here.. i might be wrong about what you meant about this comment thouh, i just dont understand the things you imply in this vague way. and my english keps me from getting all the fine nuances, i guess..

I didn't realize he was so old. I mean, most therapists retire by his age (no offense intended to anyone on here that is over 70; I'm not trying to be ageist). I hope he doesn't decide to retire (or worse) right when you're in the thick of it...

quote:

Originally posted by Frog:
echo, no hard feelings ok? i dont want this thread to become a fight. Thats is not the intention of this thread. And again: its brave of you to say what you mean, espescially if you do it out of concern about me, but some of the reactions here are accurate IMO, about your tone.

Frog, I have never had any negative feeling towards you, and I do not consider this a fight with you. Some people on here don't like me because I refuse to "lay at the foot of the cross" or whatever, and I've tried to ignore it and keep my comments specific to your situation. I am sincerely concerned about you is all.

After thinking about this, I guess what worries me even more than your parents and your T socializing, is that you'll get sucked into the blackhole of longterm therapy for what is really a very normal reaction to this phase of your life. You seem like a normal, healthy, young woman (I'm assuming you are female but maybe I am wrong?) who is going through some normal "growing pains".

I'm not saying you are undeserving of therapy or don't have real problems... BUT psychoanalysis 3x a week (with plans to continue indefinitely) seems like overkill, especially for someone like you, who has a happy healthy relationship with her parents. (Maybe you have some dark secret in your past that you need to work through that you haven't mentioned or I missed. You are under no obligation to post about it of course.) You should be enjoying your newfound independence, not feeling trapped, not wasting valuable time in therapy three days a week. Oh, if I had my 20's to live over.... I'd stop all my worrying and just have more fun. Exercise, meditate, make new friends, try new hobbies... There's so much freedom for someone your age; don't waste it.

I know people are going to jump all over me for using the phrase "blackhole of longterm therapy". But when I first read your thread, I had visions of you a few years in the future, posting on here about your painful termination (especially considering his age), and thinking it all could have been prevented if someone had just spoken up frankly to you. There are members here that I have seen go from being fairly well-adjusted to complete mess in only 18 months. I just think people should be getting better (as in healthier) with therapy, not worse.

I apologize for not burying my opinion in paragraph after paragraph of hand-wringing pre-emptive apologies and grovelling. I just don't have the time for that kind of thing, and it's not my style of writing, although it is clearly what people here prefer. I wasn't trying to be insensitive to you. Sometimes I read things on this site and think "omfg just get to the point already" and well that's just not me.

And with that I think I'll just email Shrinklady and ask her to delete my account. This place isn't healthy for me. And I really hope you're not still posting on here in a year. As in, my hope for you is that you will be too happy and healthy to need this site.

quote:

And with that I think I'll just email Shrinklady and ask her to delete my account.

Oh no, you are my voice of reason here!!

Maclove, what is it that you want to say?

Hi Echo,

I want to give you some feedback, though I'm perhaps if you're leaving you may not be interested in this. I say it for my sake.

I find myself irritated by some of your criticisms. It's not because you are not a Christian. I'm not either. It's not that your criticisms are too direct. In fact it's their indirectness - that the strongest of them are delivered through sarcasm and a kind of scattergun generality that makes it clear you are intensely critical of certain people or situations, but that you are not going to identify who or what they are. This makes it impossible to actually evaluate whether your criticisms are valid or not. It makes it impossible for people to directly answer your criticisms with their own point of view. It also communicates a lot of anger. If you are angry about what you are seeing here and can't address particular situations directly with respect for the people involved, I agree that it's not a healthy place for you.

I'm sorry that for whatever reasons you feel you can't simply say what you mean while respecting others, and you can't simply not come here when you don't want to be here, without someone else deleting your account.

JOnes

Echo, I really debated about replying as I think that it will just be used as fuel for your belief that you are a martyr for the cause of health and reason. But to quote Jones, I do this for myself.

I am amazed that you have managed to tolerate the company of so many unhealthy hand-wringing babies for so long being such a paragon of insight and clear thinking. I think your decision is a good one and I know I welcome it. The internet is a very big place and I truly believe there is a home for your special brand of snarkiness. May you be happy there unburdened by the company of all of the troglydytes. It is my sincerest desire that you never read this. Is that staightforward enough for you?

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
I'm sorry that for whatever reasons you can't simply not come here when you don't want to be here, without someone else deleting your account.

JOnes

Because sitting here deleting hundreds of posts one by one is taking an effing long time, and I don't want to leave my personal information up here if I'm no longer a participant on this forum. Seems like she could do this for me with a few keystrokes...

quote:

Maclove, what is it that you want to say?

Ummmm... I said what i wanted to say??? Lol.

The 'voice of reason' comment made me think you were having trouble representing yourself. It also seems an indirect way to say that you don't see any reason here other than Echo's. Am I misinterpreting?

Jones-
I just appreciate her style of communicating... Or as AG rudely put it, her "special brand of snarkiness”... IRL I'm very similar, but I do hold that back here, not that I feel I have to, but just because. It’s not anything I'm mad about, or that needs to be solved or worked out with the group or anything, it just the way I am.

Mac
If I am being rude as you have chosen to call it twice it is because I think it is way past the time for being polite. A number of people have tried to approach this and reasonably try to make Echo see how she is coming across. She has quite egregiously chosen to continue to make demeaning comments, often as a snarky aside, about many other members.

And Mac if you think I'm being rude please feel free to say it to me rather than saying it to other people.

Echo I just want you to know that I saw your very hurtful comment about me before you deleted it. I don't know why you seem to have an ax to grind with me but this is the second time you have been very hurtful towards me and I have no idea why. I have never been anything but supportive of you, especially when you decided to terminate with your own P/T. You were the only one who blatantly warned me away from my newT as if you had some special knowledge of him that no one else had. And now you just said how I threatened to overdose in my Ts parking lot. I did not threaten to do that and was not in his parking lot and he had no right to confront me sitting in my car on a public street. Aside from that he was totally irresponsible in abandoning me during this crisis time for me and my new T and the five other Ts I consulted with all said the same thing. I am not threatening to sue him I am trying my hardest to work this all out in the best and least harmful way for all of us... my little boy included. I have bent over backwards to ensure that my son's very good relationship with this T is not tainted or disrupted in a harmful way to him. I have put aside my own pain and hurt and yes, the trauma I suffered at his hands by the way he handled the termination and the aftermath to be sure my son has what he needs to move on from this damaging situation. I never once spoke a derogatory word against my T to my son.

I would appreciate it Echo if you would keep your comments to yourself when you have NO idea what you are talking about. I resisted joining this thread because I am not doing well and am very fragile from day to day and cannot bear any more anger and hurt directed my way. For my own mental health I need to avoid further upset and confrontation. I am trying to heal the best I can and have faced down more trauma than you could ever imagine and I can still offer empathy and support to my fellow board members... as well as to my old T who damaged me so badly. None of which you seem to be able to do.

TN

Echo, I am sad if any of my comments and personal beliefs and struggles seem to have added to your decision to leave. I certainly do not dislike you because you "refuse to lay your problems at the foot of the cross" or whatever it was words you put into other's mouths.. let me be clear...personally, my reasons for disliking you (I didn't before, but I am starting to now that you are taking pot shots at hurting people) have *nothing* to do with your personal beliefs, but more to do with your authoritarian kind of superiority, and tendency to diagnose other members' psychological status and problems. Let us just leave that to T's, please. You seem to really think that if only everyone here would just listen to *you*, we could all save piles of money and time sorting out years of trauma and abuse, depression, existential crisis, faith crisis, being re-traumatized by T's we trusted, and so on, without needing therapy at all. Since you seem to have many answers, I am wondering now, what your credentials are, that seem to give you the special knowledge that some members are claiming victim status and so on? Why don't you start a thread of your own, that will put forth your ideas so that people can choose to read if they agree with your merciless take on therapy, or not? I don't understand why you feel so angry about people's different ways of caring and being than yours.. but, that is clearly your prerogative- I mean, you are free to act like this... I think it is a bit unusual to place yourself in the position of authority and reason over many here who have years of experience in dealing with matters like these- I don't really understand why you are doing that- but, I think if there is a problem that you still feel the need to discuss further, just perchance- it should be moved out of Frog's thread and onto another one...per Mac's earlier insinuation. Since at least some of this argument without doubt has started over your personal problem with me, I have started a thread where you are free to lambast, at least me, if not other members- for whatever the heck you want to. Or, we could choose to have a reasonable discussion there. Your choice.

Same goes for you, Mac. I've seen both of you be very supportive and caring, and also take support and care here, very graciously...much of this could really be misunderstanding and imflamed emotions. I am inviting you to "get it out of your system" if you want to...on a different thread. Then maybe we can move on.

BB

Maclove, I'm glad to see you actually feel it's your own choice to hold back whatever you hold back here. Your earlier comments supporting Echo's criticisms of the board in general have suggested that you think there's some stifling of discussion or 'exploration' at play.

Here's what I think: if people here write without thoughtful respect for the feelings and beliefs, or close attention to the actual experiences, of those they are talking about, others are likely to feel hurt, angry and rejecting of that kind of commentary. They are likely and well within their rights to say so. It's simple. So if you want to operate like that, you have an idea of what to expect.

If you look around without resentment you'll see lots of constructive offerings of variant and sometimes quite challenging points of view. It's hard to take on different perspectives about the most charged and well-defended parts of your emotional life. It can be done if both parties to the communication are careful and are operating in good faith. Most here know that from their own experience and act accordingly.

Jones

TN, Frog, I'm sorry.

Hello (((((All)))))
There's an awful lot of hurting happening here and it seems some issues may be of long standing and being new cannot buy in!! My only thought to all is to please take some deep breaths and maybe not post on this thread any more, just let it go and come back when calmer! IDK - just think a bit of space is needed. Wish I could help more!
Morgs

ok. I`ll just refrain from tryin to reply to all this. Echo- your reply have hit me big time I`ll have to stay away from this thread right now, as i am heading for my session soon. I just wanna see my T now. I am a bit sad and overwhelmed by all this. Most of you guys- have been amzingly supportive, and from the bottom of my heart: thank you again.
NT: So sorry too.

Dear ((Frog))
You poor thing being in the middle of this I hope I didn't upset you by suggesting everyone takes a break!!! There was just too much hurting every post!! Oui, you must talk with your T about all that has happened on this forum - I don't think it is all about 'your' situation. Keep sharing here - you are very sweet!!
Love
Morgs

***** Warning -or whatever- this reply is not a contribution to the over-all discussion goin on here but about my stuff with T and a reply to echo`s latest post****


Echo...finally got the time to reply. I dont even know if you are here, reading this, but here it goes...i really wanna get to the buttom of this, echo- and it seems to me like your previous respond to me, reviels some more understadning of my sitation, and that we`re on the same page about the matter of the importance of strict boundaries.- and that my T/parents DO provide those boundaries professionally. What strikes me in your reply is rather the view you reviel about therapy in general.(and about the forum- but i will refrain from commenting about things that are not DIRECTLY about my case here.)

quote:

After thinking about this, I guess what worries me even more than your parents and your T socializing, is that you'll get sucked into the blackhole of longterm therapy for what is really a very normal reaction to this phase of your life. You seem like a normal, healthy, (..)who is going through some normal "growing pains".

quote:

I have never concidered long term psychotherapy as getting "sucked ino the blackhole". I rather think of it as a possible great opportunity to be able to work on my "growing pains" (and lots of other stuff), facing problems, dealing with issues, working hard, over a long time. It takes strenght and bravery and lots of lots of courrage to go through that long process IMO. You keep describing therapy as "the enemy" contra to "health"- i think this view sais alot more about your issues/views of therapy (and patiens) in general echo...(?) I am in therapy because i needed help echo, and i cant think of a better place to work with that in therapy, with my T as by my side. Its a great opportunity and i have grasped it wholeheartly.

quote:

I'm not saying you are undeserving of therapy or don't have real problems... BUT psychoanalysis 3x a week (with plans to continue indefinitely) seems like overkill, especially for someone like you, who has a happy healthy relationship with her parents.(...)You should be enjoying your newfound independence, not feeling trapped, not wasting valuable time in therapy three days a week.(..) There's so much freedom for someone your age; don't waste it.

quote:

whos sais i am wasting time echo? Thats your words echo. Not mine. I have never concidered working in therapy as "a waste of time"- indeed sometimes hard and painfull- but how could it be different? I think working in therapy, (can) makes us more humble about being human, learning us to accept and understand and show empathy with all humans in their strugglings. Echo- you seem to think of being in therapy as a sign of "weakness"- thats how you come accross- and thats far off the way i see it. My overall-view about therapy, is that it has changed my life, for the better. I went from being depressed to gain hope and joy in life. 3 session pr week is a blessing, which i am only thankful about. Do you know that i have always looked forwared to those sessions? -despite the difficulties? Doesnt that sais it all? Echo- i am NOT feeling trapped, nor that i "waste valuable time", nor that therapy a "thief" stealing away my "freedom". (how do you define freedom, echo? freedom from what? attachment?) i sure dont think of freedom as opposite to my therapy.

quote:

But when I first read your thread, I had visions of you a few years in the future, posting on here about your painful termination (especially considering his age), and thinking it all could have been prevented if someone had just spoken up frankly to you. There are members here that I have seen go from being fairly well-adjusted to complete mess in only 18 months. I just think people should be getting better (as in healthier) with therapy, not worse.

quote:

Thats a horrible vision you got there. And it aches reading it actually. Just talked about T about this comment, as i was triggered by those word,- as you point out my deepest fear here. Since i have major seperation angst, this aint cool echo. But it is my hope and my goal (and my T`s) that i will manage to face the termination when i am ready, and that i will do if with style and dignity. (like AG. ) Not without grief and a sense of loss, but with a "good enough" health. I am on my way, but it takes time, and i WANT IT to take time. Not trapped, just attached. And that attachment has enriched my life btw. Its hard to understand that you think your "speaking up to me" about my "horrible terminition" will prevent anything. You think people should get better, not worse, yeah? That one i think we all can agree on. Yet- you seem to lack understanding of the time-aspect here, and about WHATS making one better... since you concider therpay as a "trap" and "waste of time" its no wonder why you would stick to your advice to me about terminate.

quote:

And I really hope you're not still posting on here in a year. As in, my hope for you is that you will be too happy and healthy to need this site

quote:

to be clear: I hope i am just where i wanna be in one year, probably in therapy, and if i am still around here on forum, i am sure its because i still want to, and find it helpful, because its a great forum with lots of great people. Echo- my hope is sinsere that you also would benefit from a forum like this, and find it helpful.

Wow, Frog. I've been reading this thread and debating whether to contribute. And now I'm so glad I didn't, because I could not have said it better than you did just now. I agree with everything you said, that therapy is a great opportunity to work hard on my stuff...and a big part of the process is even figuring out what's "mine" and what is someone else's. And in my opinion and experience, there is NO time in therapy that ever has to be "wasted". Even when the therapeutic relationship doesn't work out, I can STILL choose to learn and grow from it.

quote:

Originally posted by Frog:
I think working in therapy, (can) makes us more humble about being human, learning us to accept and understand and show empathy with all humans in their strugglings.

Amen, a thousand times over.

quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
There are members here that I have seen go from being fairly well-adjusted to complete mess in only 18 months. I just think people should be getting better (as in healthier) with therapy, not worse.

This observation made me think of what it's like to clean a messy closet that I've been avoiding for a long time. When I start, the goal is to have a clean, orderly closet...but first I have to pull everything out that I've been avoiding, which means initially it looks like I have a bigger mess than I did before. But that's not really true...I don't have anything I didn't have before...I've just brought it out into the light so I can go through it, discard what is no longer needed, and keep the good stuff.

Good luck with your next appointment, Frog! Let us know how it goes.

Hugs to you,
SG

Frog,

I agree with SG, your reply was everything that I was thinking in regards to the comments made. I think you have a great head on your shoulders and have shown amazing strength and courage in your quest for peace and happiness. Keep up the great work!

quote:

This observation made me think of what it's like to clean a messy closet that I've been avoiding for a long time. When I start, the goal is to have a clean, orderly closet...but first I have to pull everything out that I've been avoiding, which means initially it looks like I have a bigger mess than I did before. But that's not really true...I don't have anything I didn't have before...I've just brought it out into the light so I can go through it, discard what is no longer needed, and keep the good stuff.

Good luck with your next appointment, Frog! Let us know how it goes.

Can I please quote this about 16 more times??

I absolutely love the way SG put this...it is exactly what therapy is like! I think I have a better understanding just from this, myself! Frog I realized that whan I read this! I have alot of my junk out of the closet right now, and I'm dealing with the temptation to sit in the junk and despair, thinking this job is too big for me, or, walk away from it all, but realizing that I have to stay and organize it, purge stuff, and then put it all back away.

Thanks SG...

Let us know how your session goes, Frog. ((((Froggy))))

BB

Frog,
May I join the chorus saying how much value I found in your reply. One of the reasons I was in therapy for so long was that, as my second T put it, I effectively used therapy in order to live successful life despite what had happened to me. Then when I found the right T I was ready to heal. I very much see therapy as an extremely helpful thing. Honestly, if I had not thought that it was extremely important for me to go out on my own for awhile, I would have continued just because it has always provided so much insight and clarity for me (notwithstanding the huge swaths of time I spent gonzo confused. )

I also wanted to add earlier, but got sidetracked for obvious reasons, that as much as I saw red flags in your situation (especially before you came back and explained in further) I understand. Because I believe that my T had excellent boundaries but he did several things that I have read in other articles about therapy are absolutely not done! He answered the phone during sessions (very rarely and the calls were always very short.) The first time it happened it was really jarring, as my first T didn't even have a phone in her office, let alone take a call. But he was more than willing to discuss my feelings about it and in the end, I really didn't mind. In some ways, I found it reassuring that he trusted me to be able to handle an interruption. Although, I hasten to add, a call never came in at a really critical moment. His phone is on vibrate so for all I know, he ignored calls if he thought it would really have an adverse effect.

The other, and much larger issue, was the fact that he started as my husband's individual T, then took us on as a couple (something I know a lot of T/P's would NOT do) and then ended up working with me individually. I completely understand why someone could hear that and become VERY concerned about what was going on in my therapy (actually, another member did question me on it a while back) but it worked really well for us. But the reason it worked really well is that all three of us were very open about what was going on and how we felt about it. We spent several of our couples' sessions talking about my individual work with him and how my husband thought about it and I talked to him a number of times about my feelings about my husband (couples sessions could sometimes feel very threatening for me or I would (embarrassingly enough) feel very jealous). The attraction to my T (and the beginning of my attachment) occured during our couples' work and my meeting with him to tell him how I felt ended up leading into our working together. I told him how I felt about him on a Tuesday evening, then talked to my husband about it the next day.

Bottom line, what I'm trying to say is that it worked so very well because everyone involved had a good sense of boundaries and was willing to be open and discuss exactly what was going on. And from what you're said, that is also what you are experiencing. I am glad that you are taking this stuff to your T. I think bringing those feelings into the room is how you heal.

SG, the closet analogy rocked! My T often said one of the paradoxes of therapy is that people come to feel better and often at the beginning they feel worse because they're finally letting out long buried issues. And of course they're painful, or you wouldn't have been trying to ignore them for so long. And I think there's a horrible transistional phase where you are giving up you old coping techniques (which while allowing you to survive then, have become destructive now) but have not yet learned newer, healthy ways of dealing with the feelings. Pushing through that part is, I think, one of the tougher aspects of healing work.

AG

Love the toilet-image too Strummergirl, STRM, BB, AG, - thanks for reply and sharing your thoughts and wisdom- (and too kind words regard to my poster, it was mostly things i have learned from being here btw) you people are really the best!

Its with very mixed feelings i am gonna update about my session today. i think i have processed it enough now to be able to share a bit from it, to all you that have asked me about it..

I TOLD MY T EVERYTHING. i started the session sayin that i felt in a huge dilemma due to something i wasnt sure was smart to tell or not. So...after big time silence and mumbling, inner fightning and hiding under the blanket (lol) i told my T about this forum and about the thread i had started after the "dinner-gathering" last week, and about some of the content of the replies that i was disturbed by here. (Poor T doesnt have a qlue about how internet and these forum works, so he had to bend his brain and struggled alot to understand what i was talking about as i used such "foreign" english internet-terms as "thread" "qotes" "replies" "psych cafe" "shrinklady" "anonymus members" "discussion pulls" and so on. Lol. ) Anyways: We got to the core issue, and he was supportive and not at all offended (i was so scared he would be) that i had "seeked advices" on a internet about this case, and talked about him here. He seemed more curious about all this. So, after lots of others boring stuff, i left off telling T that i would go right back to forum and reply to echo`s poster. I saw T smiled for a second when i made that decition- (Wonder what he really thinks of all this? hmm..go figure)
I have decided to go home (take the train to my home city where my parents live) to talk to them now (*Maybe*) in order to "finish" all this..It was not an easy session though- i do feel loads of guilt and mixed feelings due to all this, especially because my T took it all so great... bleh.

..gosh, and thanks to you dear reader of this, that are still bothering to read all my posters here- i`ll stop my rambling now