Wynne,
One, can I say you're going to do great in therapy? The fact that you're being so proactive and trying to educate yourself shows that you'll be working hard. So you're already doing one of the most important aspects of therapy.

Trauma issues covers a really wide range of issues. It can refer to traumatic events experienced as an adult such as combat, a really serious car accident, witnessing extreme acts of violence such as a murder, rape, or being in any near death experience. Trauma can also refer to prolonged trauma in childhood such as emotional neglect, physical abuse or sexual abuse or some combination thereof. The definition of trauma is that something occurs that causes an emotional response that you can not process. It overwhelms your ability to feel and understand what's going on.

This is a long way of saying that without knowing any of your background or history it's hard to know what direction to steer you in. I definitely do NOT want to push you into talking about more than you feel comfortable doing however. So feel free to say more or nothing at all.

All that said I can give you a few links and you can see if you find anything helpful there.

David Baldwin's Trauma Information Pages

The above website has really good articles on Trauma but is really heavy going. These are professional articles written for professionals and use a lot of highly technical language but I did get some stuff out of them.

Trauma, Attachmentm and Stress Disorders

This discusses a lot of developmental issues that arise from prolonged trauma.

Trauma & Attachment Theory

This is a blog of a therapist named Robin Shapiro. She has a lot of good articles and she works mainly with people dealing with trauma so there might be some good insight for you here. And she's where I found Myshrink so I'm very grateful to her.

I hope some of that helps.

AG

Hi Wynne,
I thought of one more link that might help.

Trauma and PTSD
This is a really good website on psychology and therapy (not as good as here of course!) with a lot of good info. This topic is a pretty thorough discussion of trauma.

AG

Hi Wynne,

AG already gave you some excellent info and links, but I just wanted to add to her comment on the fact that you being proactive in your approach is significant to how well you will progress in therapy. Therapy is a “partnership” entered into by a professional and a consumer, both having different but equal responsibility in the treatment. It is more than a client just showing up for scheduled appointments and appointing her T to “do their job,” “work your magic,” and otherwise sit there indolently then walk out the door and return to their same patterns that keep them non-functioning and unproductive. The “fix me” approach does not work. (My sister has been doing that for 25 years and is envious of the progress I’ve made in 2 ½ years.)

So congratulations on that and keep up the hard work. Again, glad to have you aboard!

Thanks, AG, for some great links. David Baldwin's site is fascinating, but most of the articles are, as you suggested, over my head or out of my area of interest - the fourth or fifth time I looked up "amygdala" I decided it was time to stop.

The links about attachment and trauma seem really interesting, but I guess I'm still trying to work through/accept that what happened was "trauma", so it's hard to see a lot of this stuff applying to me.

A typical example of this: I tell my T about an incident that happened at home not too long ago. He's like - you know that that alone would be traumatic, right? (I paraphrase heavily). I'm like - Um, .... no. *looking at the gaping abyss below* That can't be trauma. If that's trauma then... *quickly hurries off the scene*

Most of the stuff I've seen about "what is trauma" is about combat vets (which I'm not) or natural/terrorist disasters (which I haven't experienced). I'm having a hard time fitting what happened to me into "trauma" that way. It just doesn't seem like it's that bad - and since it's the whole way I grew up, and I don't remember a time it wasn't that way, it's _really_ hard to imagine that that counts as traumatic in any clinically meaningful way. But I trust the Tfella, so it doesn't seem reasonable to disbelieve him.

And JM, I appreciate the congrats. I'm trying!

Wynne,
You're running into exactly what makes dealing with childhood trauma so difficult. It's normal. When we're kids, what happens in our family is what we assume happens in everyone's family so why would it be a big deal. But for some of us (and I don't want to presume to include you) that's really not true. It has taken me a long time to come to grips with just how bad what happened to me is. And the problem is that there was no one there to help me cope with the feelings that resulted from the abuse because they were the ones abusing me. Left a lot of crap to clean up (pardon my language, but that's really how it feels.)

One thing that really hit me about your post was the "looking at the gaping abyss below."
That resonates so strongly with me, I really understand what you're saying.

Looking at and working through trauma is a difficult, painful process. My T has talked about the fact that people go to therapy to make things better but often in the beginning things get worse because you're moving towards painful stuff. Since you mentioned about growing up, I'm assuming some of this happened when you were little. Often, when a child is subjected to traumatic events within the family, there are NO resources to cope with the emotional fallout, so as a matter of survival, we learn to look away, to not see, to put it out of mind. It's called denial and it's a lovely place to spend a lot of time. I have a vacation home there myself. It makes sense that trying to go towards something we fear would kill us would be hard to do. And one way of avoiding going towards it is to minimize it. If it wasn't a big deal, why the big fuss about looking at it?

Please take all this with a grain of salt, I'm basing it mainly on my experience connecting with a few phrases you used, so this may really not apply. But I wanted to offer it as a possible insight.

AG

Thanks, AG. Another big problem I'm having accepting that my experiences could have been traumatic is that I don't see anyone talking about anything similar on forums or in descriptions like on the links you gave me.

They all talk about being - oh. This is probably a post that you should not continue to read if you're uncomfortable reading Things That Are Upsetting. They talk about physical abuse, and sexual abuse, neither of which happened from my dad. In fact, he was quite proud of the fact that he never hit his kids or his wife.

But he liked the rest of the family to be scared of him, and he would say as much. He was angry. He yelled. You never knew what he'd do. (He's since been diagnosed with BPD.) My mom is still with him, and still can't trust him and worries that he might kill her (I tried to get her out - we ran away last summer. She went back. I live Elsewhere now.) Back when I was 12 and he had what I'll refer to as an Episode, I stashed baseball bats in strategic locations around the house because I was worried I'd have to defend myself. (He thought the folks on TV and the radio were talking about him and plotting against him. This was, as far as I can tell, Not the Case

And it was never overt, it never left any marks, and it isn't what they talk about in the descriptions. I'm terrified of him, still and yet, but there's nothing I can put my finger on or point to and say, "There! See? That's ... whatever I would need to prove that something bad happened!" Most of the posters at forums or descriptions talk about horrible sex stuff, or getting hit or kicked, or not having food/shelter provided, or some such thing. Not so here.

And as for denial, yeah. My family lives there - you can probably get a nice house on our street if you want. The view is _stellar_: big prairies full of ponies, puppies, and dancing bears.

Wynne,
I'm really sorry, you are in what I consider the worst place to be with abuse. Just because someone doesn't lay a hand on you, doesn't mean they didn't injure you. Being in a constant atmosphere of fear, and in fear of the very person who should have been providing security is abusive. And yet somehow that feels invalid because you can't point to a scar or a physical place. Forgive me, but that's BS. Just what you described here is heartbreaking that you should have to live like that. And yes, I would consider that long term trauma. To be in fear to the point that you'd put baseball bats around means that you lived anticipating violence which is pretty close to constantly experiencing violence.

You don't need to prove anything. You lived with a man who used power, anger and the threat of violence to control your family. That's not how we're supposed to grow up. That's what happened to you and it wasn't good. You don't need to fit anyone else's description but if it will make you feel better, I have read descriptions very similar to what you described that were definitely considered abusive.

You should not have had to live like that; your birthright was to be cared for, loved and protected. I'm really sorry you didn't have that.

OOOH ponies, puppies and dancing bears! Tell me there are unicorns too. I seem to remember similar views from our front window.

AG

AG, I read your post but my brain just stops working. I'll come back to it.

And yes, unicorns galore. I see one now!

Hi Wynne,

Please allow me to tell you about the abuse and violence that I DID’NT suffer: And I will repeat your warning; this is for mature audiences only:


By the time I was born my oldest brother was already well into drug abuse and rebellion and pulled a knife on my parents when I was a toddler sleeping only feet away. (He was later diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder among other things.)

By the time I was four we moved to a house adjoined to a party store which my parents owned. This was not in the worst neighborhood, but yet not the greatest either. I was subject to being awakened in the middle of the night to break in and robbery attempts that it became necessary for my family to designate a safe place to meet in case of a threatening emergency. I didn’t know this was not your typical childhood mind you. This was normal for me. One night in particular (I was about 6 years old) my older sister and I were awakened by my other brother (who was babysitting us while minding the store) because a gang fight had broke out across the street and he feared it may drift into our store because it was very violent. BTW: My parents were away for the evening playing cards and drinking. My brother startled us out of bed and right at that moment someone barged into our house screaming “He’s got an ax, he’s got an ax, hide me he is trying to kill me!” and he stowed himself in my closet. At that my brother took us to our apartment next door for cover. Just as he closed the door behind us I watched through the window one man chasing another man through my backyard with what appeared to be that ax as I watched him raise the ax over the other man’s head I fainted from fear. (The ultimate freeze response) But I didn’t REALLY see it plunge into the man’s head. Trauma or not?

We moved from this home when I was 8 ½ to a house in the country where one would think they’d find safety. (But not for long.) Almost immediately my older sister became pregnant at a very young age and married an abusive, violent, heroine addict who threatened not only her but the whole family for a period of 7-8 years. He graphically described how he would murder each of us and sent us mutilated pictures of our family as we endured threatening letters and phone calls until he finally landed in jail for armed robbery when I was 15 years old. Meanwhile and after my sister had divorced him, he kidnapped my niece when she was only a year old. When he finally contacted us he insisted that if we ever wanted to see her alive again that my sister meet him alone. My sister did and we spent several hours not knowing if we’d see either of them alive again. But he finally did return them unharmed. Does that mean it wasn’t a trauma?

This is just a quick synopsis of SOME of my experiences, but the point I want to make is that I learned to minimize all that I went through. I was even told that many children have it worse than I do and I should be thankful. So I adopted the belief and ability to minimize my traumas. A few weeks ago I was triggered with all that was on the news regarding Jennifer Hudson’s family tragedy. I felt the gut wrenching fear, I felt the pain and anguish, but I found I was telling myself that I didn’t have it that bad. My family was never murdered. My T nearly had a melt down when I muttered those words in her office.
The reality is that my brain played out every single threat my ex-brother-in-law made as if it was really carried out, and yet I sit there and say I should not call this trauma. Is it trauma? What would you say to me Wynne? Would you minimize what I experienced because it could have been worse? I know that you wouldn’t. My family was murdered in my mind every night. And I haven’t even mentioned the sexual and physical abuse yet, which I also learned to minimize…because many children have it so much worse. –remember?

I don’t mean to be sarcastic, but I am still struggling with admitting that my childhood sucked the big one! You helped me to see the denial I was swimming in. I am returning the favor. It was a terrible childhood. I should not have had to endure so much violence and threatening situations that I did. My family, my primary care takers, my mommy and daddy refused to provide necessary protection that was owed to me and I suffer from complex PTSD…because I never suffered trauma?

I think minimizing is a belated flee response we make because we do not know how else to cope with it. But through therapy we are given tools to learn how to cope the right way, and first and foremost it is in admitting and identifying our traumas.

I don’t believe it is because you don’t want to, but your brain is just having a hard time comprehending something different than its been told all this time.

I hope this does not sound harsh, I mean it with the most compassion for you. And I can guess that you will minimize what you have suffered in comparison. I certainly hope that you don’t.

JM

quote:

This was not in the worst neighborhood, but yet not the greatest either. I was subject to being awakened in the middle of the night to break in and robbery attempts that it became necessary for my family to designate a safe place to meet in case of a threatening emergency. I didn’t know this was not your typical childhood mind you. This was normal for me.

Heh. I live there now: city, bad part, drug house+ adjacent. I'm lulled to sleep by the sound of gunfire, automatic and otherwise. Oddly enough, it's the safest place I've ever lived. The door on this house has clearly been kicked in before; the locks are a joke. I've had it broken into while I was home once.

quote:

And I can guess that you will minimize what you have suffered in comparison.

You got it! When I tried to talk about why I didn't want to talk in group therapy (reminds me of The National's song Ada: "Ada don't talk about reasons why you don't wanna talk about reasons why you don't wanna talk"), I said that I was scared that folks would say it was worse than it was, and that they would say it wasn't so bad.

I read your story and I think, "well at least my dad didn't..." And I think, well, I had my grandparents nearby, and they were awesome. I think about everything I had (great teachers, a nice quiet library nearby, a garage with-a-lock that I could play in), and I keep thinking that it wasn't so bad. I can't see myself in your story: but you're right, I would try to not "let" you minimize it or say it wasn't The Suck. I would listen, and say that it had to have a profound effect on you, and that it was traumatic and probably disturbing and harder than I can imagine to deal with.

quote:

I would try to not "let" you minimize it or say it wasn't The Suck. I would listen, and say that it had to have a profound effect on you, and that it was traumatic and probably disturbing and harder than I can imagine to deal with.

So now you just have to learn to do that for yourself. It is a re-learning process and re-learning is always harder than learning the first time.

You'll get there. I beleive you will. If I, the QUEEN of minimizing did, you can!
And when i say Queen, I mean bow to me damn it!

quote:

My T nearly had a melt down when I muttered those words in her office.

Yeeeah. I keep getting similar reactions - I give the Tfella credit for being able to hold through most things, but I'm seriously over-sensitive, and a couple of things I've told him have just ripped through him like a knife. *sarcastic, flippant voice on* S'just _awesome_ when you give the Mental Health Practitioner fits.

quote:

*sarcastic, flippant voice on*

My T has that identical voice sometimes! I know that voice.

Which I why I somtimes enjoy raising the following response from her too.

quote:

S'just _awesome_ when you give the Mental Health Practitioner fits.

But I would never admit that I would ever enjoy doing that that. Never.

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:

quote:

*sarcastic, flippant voice on*

My T has that identical voice sometimes! I know that voice.

Which I why I somtimes enjoy raising the following response from her too.

quote:

S'just _awesome_ when you give the Mental Health Practitioner fits.

But I would never admit that I would ever enjoy doing that that. Never.

Wow. Yeah, I get a little torn up when he, like, feels like he cries. And a little envious, of course. You _are_ the Queen of minimizing. I bow to your Minimalist approach, your Majesty! /bow

Likewise.

Y'all the talkative bunch eyh!

We're way busy here... school, family health issues... etc etc.

We each have our own 'traumas' however you describe them. The our own responses to them... and our own 'at least my dad didn't' responses too.

I just read an article on Childhood Trauma (for my course) which says:
all diagnosis of traums "require an identified traums, an experienced or witnessed, actualy or threatened injury to self or others, and itesm from three categores: (1) reexperienceing (2)numbing ofresponsiveness... (3) increased arousal ... (4) new fears and agressions. ... Numbing of responsiveness includes: social withdrawal, restriceted range of affect, constriction in play... dissociation..."

Wynne: I would think that NOT leaving the house except for work is 'social withdrawal'. This article was specifically on childhood trauma so some may not fit.

Just Me: I decided not to read all your post, a bit triggering there. But I'm sorry for all your troubles in life.

AG: "I have a vacation home there myself. " HA! That's very hilarious!


Later,
Scott

Scott,
I checked "all of the above", do I pass the test?

Anyway, I appreciate that you may not be able to read my entire post but thanks for your condolences.

Heh. We _are_ the talkative bunch, Scott. I just got back from a family funeral and had to deal with my fam, way sooner than I expected to, so I really wanted to talk to folks. I really appreciate that you all and this fabulous community are here and willing to chat! It's been awesome.

And yeah, I realize that I hit just about every ticked box for 'trauma' (and y'know, I really like Tfella but he didn't have to strain any neurons to come up with the "trauma issues" bit): my startle response is the stuff of slapstick comedy, I have a hard time feeling things (restricted affect), I can't recognize my emotions and have the vocab of a 6-year-old when I try to talk about feelings (1. scared? 2. happy? 3. scared.), I get all foggy sometimes, I'm hypervigilant, I have flashbacks or "intrusive re-experiencing", and I write really really long sentences. Oh, is that not one of them? :P

I appreciate the list, though. It reminds me again how very likely it is that what I reacted to was actually trauma, or that I at least reacted to it as though it were. Thank you!

Thanks Scott, its good to hear from you, I hope you're holding on ok through the chaos!

And once again, I can hear the Canadian accent.

Wait, I just realized something, this site is in Canada. I'm the one with the accent!

AG you're such a hoser anyway!

quote:

and I write really really long sentences. Oh, is that not one of them? :P

No, I'm sure that's one of them, because I checked that box too.

quote:

It reminds me again how very likely it is that what I reacted to was actually trauma, or that I at least reacted to it as though it were.

It's the same thing.

Hey Wynne, you sound really normal to me. But as I once said to JM you have to consider the source.

A hoser.

I'm glad it's helping you, being here, its really nice getting to know you.

AG

I also wanted to thank you for your earlier post, AG. The quote that threw me off and felt like it shut down my brain was:

quote:

You should not have had to live like that; your birthright was to be cared for, loved and protected. I'm really sorry you didn't have that.

My reaction to this statement was much like the first time I said I was mad at my T and he apologized for something he'd done wrong. I just didn't get it. I still don't believe it. But I think it's a fascinating notion! And JM, as you might expect, is probably spot on:

quote:

I don’t believe it is because you don’t want to, but your brain is just having a hard time comprehending something different than its been told all this time.

Thanks for all.

Wynne,
I completely understand. It took me years of therapy to be able to hear it (I'm a little slow ) and even more time to believe it. I really can vividly remember what it feels like when you first start to look at this stuff. Its like someone is speaking to you in a completely foreign language.

For a neurobiological standpoint, your brain structure has very weak pathways around these ideas so you have no place to put them so to speak. That's one of the things therapy is about, learning new ways to think.

And you're right about both things, JM was spot on and I do expect her to be spot on.

AG

"hoser" ??? paleeeeeze....NOONE says that here any more!

Scott

How cay you hear a Canadian accent when I'm writing? Do i 'type' Canadian??

Scott

quote:

"hoser" ??? paleeeeeze....NOONE says that here any more!

LOL! Yeah, that kinda died along w/ "Take off, eh!" But we'll never let you live it down.

Ok, maybe.

quote:

Y'all the talkative bunch eyh!

Scott,

Whenever I see a "eyh" I hear Canadian. It's this undefinable sound that only a Canadian can pronounce correctly, but even more impressively, can make it sound natural.

AG

FYI: eh, or eyh, is also a yooper term. Yooper= Resident of da U.P. (Michigan's Upper Peninsula.) Yoopers say, "I live in da U.P. eh." and they call us trolls because we live "under da bridge." (south of Mackinaw bridge)

Just a little bit of useless information I thought I'd share.

My own little silly FYI's:

Californians do not call San Francisco "Frisco" or Orange County "The OC" and we certainly don't say "fer sure" or "like" or "dude." This is how we natives can readily spot the transplants.

Funny how these things come about, eyh? (Did I say it right?)

CALIFORNIA...I bet its warm there.

But you can't point to your right palm and show people where you live.

Oh DUDE, that is, like, such a bummer!

Heh. I think you folks clearly need another forum/thread location for chitchat. Once you get it goin' there's clearly lots to be said! And I haven't seen any posts that talk about stuff like this.

You must admit it'd be a bit jarring for folks to come in and see you talking about the UP under this title. And even California's not _that_ bad! :P

We did wander rather far off track, didn't we?

Of course, new people should probably know what they're getting into.

But back on subject, how are you doing?

AG

quote:

I think you folks clearly need another forum/thread location for chitchat.

I think that would be in the coffee talk thread. LOL But hey, sometimes things just come up spontaneously.

Yoopers have transference too.

More on the subject...How ARE you doing??

Anybody experience any transferenc lately? LOL.

Sorry I am such a Smart @$$.

Heh. I didn't mean to critique, or shift it back mewards. At least, not too much - I'll admit to wanting someone to ask me that, at the very least. Transparent bugger, ain't I?

I just (just!) had group therapy - weekly Thing - and it's just so intense in there, it's hard to even stay in the room (let alone be "present"). Plus, Guy next to me twitched at one point and practically had me jumping through the plaster. Boo. And I haven't managed to ask him to not twitch like that yet - since in 10 years of training there hasn't been anything I have managed to dial down my startle response.

So I ain't doin' so hot. Yesterday it was a fight to go outside; I was afraid to go outside again. S'what started me in therapy to begin with - I spent a summer rather alarming indoors, like I said. I called some friends and eventually found an available one, and we met at an outdoor locale; worked pretty well. But I didn't get any work done to speak of.

I'm having a pretty strong reaction, I think, to being home and around my dad this extended weekend for the funeral. I always just act like I act at home when I'm home, and it's only later on that I realize I was stressed out of my mind. I generally realize it 'cause I can't unclench my jaw, I've been grinding my teeth, get nightmares, can barely sit up straight from the tension in my shoulders, and the like. *sigh*

So... that way, I think. You? You Yoopers n'all?

Hi Wynne, Sorry about the intensity of your experience today. I have a hair trigger startle response sometimes too. The rest of what you describe also sounds so much like the responses that Dude was talking about on Monday. Do you ever feel like you need to climb outside of your body for a minute until the over stimulation calms down? I know I feel that way sometimes. Other times I go and hide under my blankets when it gets too bad. I used to drink alcohol, but I am 65 days sober today and learning to deal with my traumas w/o medicating. It is a much more lively experience to say the least. LOL!

It’s good to hear from you and hope you don’t mind my smart-alecky banter. I kinda think you can take it and even dish it out if the conditions are favorable. LOL

JM

quote:

Do you ever feel like you need to climb outside of your body for a minute until the over stimulation calms down?

I wish I knew how to do this. Sometimes my mind just goes blank, and I forget what folks were talking about - this happens in one-on-one therapy sometimes, too, but rarely in group. And some days it feels like I'm in a fog and can't get out of it. But actually getting out of my body for a little while until it calms down sounds like it would be _useful_. Tfella has muttered some stuff at times about how I have to learn to be _around_ for really strong feelings, but I don't entirely understand how that's possible.

And what part of what the dude was saying does this sound like? I'm sure it's relevant, I just don't know quite how.

And indeed, I can take banter, and dish. I just hate to interrupt when folks are talking about Something Else. I wish I felt like I could respond on other threads and add Insight and Thoughts and Responses and all sorts of things. I have a really hard time thinking I have anything to say, though...long posts notwithstanding!

By the way, thanks all. I appreciate, again.