***sorry, just felt like a pointless topic, no way to delete thread****
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BB - I have found that it doesn't work. I do everything I am supposed to do everyday - get up, go to work, do my job well, come home, do my work there, go to second job, I have hobbies I do, I still go to functions, and it still feels hopeless. So that's my answer to your non-depressed folks.
gah, sorry I deleted when you guys already replied...ugh. I t just seems like *no matter what* I always end up in the hole, still. 
I keep thinking that my T can help, but maybe, he really can't. Maybe that is just the reality I am avoiding and must accept. Just can't face it right now. ick. I have to quit T but I don't have the emotional energy to quit T, and give up that samll spark of hope.
I keep thinking that my T can help, but maybe, he really can't. Maybe that is just the reality I am avoiding and must accept.
Just can't face it right now. ick. I have to quit T but I don't have the emotional energy to quit T, and give up that samll spark of hope.
Thanks for the hugs...(((DF))))
(((Blanket Girl)))
((((Smiley))))
BB
(((Blanket Girl)))
((((Smiley))))
BB
How do you guys do it, how do you do the stuff you are supposed to do? Is it just a physical forcing of the will, like "ok, body, get up, clean up the kitchen and make dinner..." That's how it feels but it just doesn't gain any momentum. I'm fighting putting movies on for my kids and crawling back into bed.
I was just going to respond when I saw that you deleted.. I don't think it's hopeless at all. I'd still like to respond to what you just said about forcing yourself and stuff, if you would like. (((((BB)))))
of course, respond, if you would like, Mac...would love it. I'm sorry I deleted it. Mistake in judgement I guess.
BB
BB
Nothing to be sorry about, just didn’t want to be disrespectful.
I think you were onto something with your original post, but with a few tweaks.
First, I don’t think acting like everything is great is going to help whatsoever. In fact, whenever I try to act like it’s all okay, I end up feeling 10 billion times more depressed and all I want to do is curl up in my room and cry. If you take one step at a time, set small goals, and be proud of your accomplishments , then you really will start feeling better and be motivated to do more. No need to fake it.
Second, just doing “normal” things isn’t going to necessarily make you feel any better, unless you change your mindset while you’re doing those day to day things, and also add in things that will raise your serotonin levels such as exercising and eating well. Again, don’t do it all at once, and don’t overwhelm yourself trying to feel better… What I’ve done is do one thing at a time and not think about anything else besides that, like “Okay, right now I'm going to get off the couch and do some squats, and leg lifts.” And that’s it, I’m not promising myself I’m going to work out every day for the rest of my life or anything, it’s just some squats, and I can handle that! And then most importantly, remember to be sooooo proud of yourself for making that choice.
Hmmm… I would say yes and no. Yes, cleaning and making dinner are very good things to do, but don’t go about it with an attitude that you just have to do it and you have no choice and life sucks and everything is horrible and I hate making dinner and the kitchen is so messy and nothing will ever be good enough and oh my gosh I am so horrible at cleaning and this dinner tastes awful but I just have to do it.
Some advice for just this scenario of “cleaning kitchen and making dinner” would be to slow down, make a list (mental or physical) of what needs to be done, accomplish one task at a time, and then very importantly take pride in your accomplishment!!! Instead of mindlessly just cleaning and cooking because that’s what needs to be done, be mindful and aware of what a great job you are doing cleaning. Like instead of going back to bed think to yourself, “Okay, I can go back to bed, but first I am only going to empty the lower rack of the dishwasher.” And then once you’ve done that, remember to be PROUD of yourself!! Empting the lower rack of the dishwasher is a great accomplishment. And then if you feel up to it, set another goal of cleaning one section of the counter, and then, you guessed it, be proud of yourself! I know it sounds so silly, but seriously it’s what works for me.
Deepfried had some good advice, like she said, start small, start small, start small!!!
Don’t feel like you have to start doing any of this right now either, maybe just think about it for awhile.
I think you were onto something with your original post, but with a few tweaks.
First, I don’t think acting like everything is great is going to help whatsoever. In fact, whenever I try to act like it’s all okay, I end up feeling 10 billion times more depressed and all I want to do is curl up in my room and cry. If you take one step at a time, set small goals, and be proud of your accomplishments , then you really will start feeling better and be motivated to do more. No need to fake it.
Second, just doing “normal” things isn’t going to necessarily make you feel any better, unless you change your mindset while you’re doing those day to day things, and also add in things that will raise your serotonin levels such as exercising and eating well. Again, don’t do it all at once, and don’t overwhelm yourself trying to feel better… What I’ve done is do one thing at a time and not think about anything else besides that, like “Okay, right now I'm going to get off the couch and do some squats, and leg lifts.” And that’s it, I’m not promising myself I’m going to work out every day for the rest of my life or anything, it’s just some squats, and I can handle that! And then most importantly, remember to be sooooo proud of yourself for making that choice.
quote:"ok, body, get up, clean up the kitchen and make dinner..."
Hmmm… I would say yes and no. Yes, cleaning and making dinner are very good things to do, but don’t go about it with an attitude that you just have to do it and you have no choice and life sucks and everything is horrible and I hate making dinner and the kitchen is so messy and nothing will ever be good enough and oh my gosh I am so horrible at cleaning and this dinner tastes awful but I just have to do it.
Some advice for just this scenario of “cleaning kitchen and making dinner” would be to slow down, make a list (mental or physical) of what needs to be done, accomplish one task at a time, and then very importantly take pride in your accomplishment!!! Instead of mindlessly just cleaning and cooking because that’s what needs to be done, be mindful and aware of what a great job you are doing cleaning. Like instead of going back to bed think to yourself, “Okay, I can go back to bed, but first I am only going to empty the lower rack of the dishwasher.” And then once you’ve done that, remember to be PROUD of yourself!! Empting the lower rack of the dishwasher is a great accomplishment. And then if you feel up to it, set another goal of cleaning one section of the counter, and then, you guessed it, be proud of yourself! I know it sounds so silly, but seriously it’s what works for me.
Deepfried had some good advice, like she said, start small, start small, start small!!!
Don’t feel like you have to start doing any of this right now either, maybe just think about it for awhile.
Hi BB,
I saw your post before you deleted, and I don't think it's pointless at all. I wonder, BB, if you're feeling like you have to somehow punish yourself for actually feeling your emotions and staying with the depression. My T always encourages me to try and stay with the feelings, even if it's just for a second, because maybe then I can figure out why I'm feeling the way I do. But very rarely when I'm in a place of feeling am I able to be at all productive, and I think it's all just part of the process. Eventually we all learn how to regulate our feelings better so that we can take it in manageable bits, but until then, try to go easy on yourself. I know how easy that is to say and how hard it is to do, because I know for me, that harsh voice that tries to find something wrong with everything I do is very automatic and I'll find that I'm berating myself ruthlessly without even being completely aware of it.
Honestly, and take this with a grain of salt because it could be complete crap, but I think that you should try and remove ALL expectations of yourself but remain aware of what you do and try to celebrate the small victories. It's a litter harder for that inner critic to get the upper hand if it's not able to wait for some 'failure' (i.e. not completing a goal of vacuuming, dusting, etc.) to grab on to. Also, try writing down things you do throughout the course of a day. Just every little thing...try not to judge whether it's 'good enough' to put down. Just scribble stuff down, like when you put a movie in for your kids. Then, at the end of the day, look at all you've done despite how much you're struggling. With kids, I'm sure that will be a lengthy list.
I'm sorry I don't have much else to offer you, BB. Please take care and also don't worry about deleting your first post. I'm glad you posted it and left it up long enough so that you could get some support in this. But I so completely understand feeling the need to delete, so don't beat yourself up for it. Also...whether you decide that you want to try harder to fake it or just sit with the depression, well, there's never going to be a 'right' way to do anything. It is all dependent on what feels right to you, BB. You are obviously not so helpless that you couldn't at least ask what would help you get through the day, so try and take that as a sign that you are trying, that you're not just wallowing in the feelings and that you're not 'bad' for having such a hard time doing the smallest things.
Hang in there, BB...tons of hugs from me.
I saw your post before you deleted, and I don't think it's pointless at all. I wonder, BB, if you're feeling like you have to somehow punish yourself for actually feeling your emotions and staying with the depression. My T always encourages me to try and stay with the feelings, even if it's just for a second, because maybe then I can figure out why I'm feeling the way I do. But very rarely when I'm in a place of feeling am I able to be at all productive, and I think it's all just part of the process. Eventually we all learn how to regulate our feelings better so that we can take it in manageable bits, but until then, try to go easy on yourself. I know how easy that is to say and how hard it is to do, because I know for me, that harsh voice that tries to find something wrong with everything I do is very automatic and I'll find that I'm berating myself ruthlessly without even being completely aware of it.
Honestly, and take this with a grain of salt because it could be complete crap, but I think that you should try and remove ALL expectations of yourself but remain aware of what you do and try to celebrate the small victories. It's a litter harder for that inner critic to get the upper hand if it's not able to wait for some 'failure' (i.e. not completing a goal of vacuuming, dusting, etc.) to grab on to. Also, try writing down things you do throughout the course of a day. Just every little thing...try not to judge whether it's 'good enough' to put down. Just scribble stuff down, like when you put a movie in for your kids. Then, at the end of the day, look at all you've done despite how much you're struggling. With kids, I'm sure that will be a lengthy list.
I'm sorry I don't have much else to offer you, BB. Please take care and also don't worry about deleting your first post. I'm glad you posted it and left it up long enough so that you could get some support in this. But I so completely understand feeling the need to delete, so don't beat yourself up for it. Also...whether you decide that you want to try harder to fake it or just sit with the depression, well, there's never going to be a 'right' way to do anything. It is all dependent on what feels right to you, BB. You are obviously not so helpless that you couldn't at least ask what would help you get through the day, so try and take that as a sign that you are trying, that you're not just wallowing in the feelings and that you're not 'bad' for having such a hard time doing the smallest things.
Hang in there, BB...tons of hugs from me.
Thanks you guys...all of that is really helpful to me. Or, I know it should be helpful, and, kind of outside of where I currently am, it *is* helpful, because at least I know that there *is a way* and that once I'm ready, I will be able to implement some of these things. But sometimes the problem seems to be that I just *don't* do the stuff or think the stuff that I should do. Or, it doesn't even occur to me at the time that I could've done this this or this...because I'm kinda just used to sitting in the hole, wondering if somebody is ever going to throw me a rope. Kinda dependent passive or whatever you want to call, I'm not proud of it, but there I am a lot of the time. I know there are tools that I can use...my problem seems to be in finding the motivation, and *remembering* to actually use them. It's likehere I am at the bottom of this hole, and I have a pickax and a rope sitting there that I have *some* idea how to use, but I keep failing, cause it's just plain too hard realistically as I'm in terrible "physical condition"...so I give up, and I'm just waiting for womebody to come along and shout down to me, "yo- BB- Take the pickax, and dig it into the side...good. Now climb up there..." you get the picture. Or I get discouraged, because sometimes it feels like my T just comes along and pokes his head down the hole to see how I'm doing, and I tell him "well, I'm starving to death, I have no water, and I could use some encouragement" to which he replies "I'm here" and then promptly walks away again. 
I have to build something from the ground up, by myslef, with him kinda coming over to watch from time to time...when I Yell really loudly that I need him to..and I'm just not sure if I need somebody to come over and watch from time to time... it hurts, and sometimes discourages, y'know, to have this person there who has everything you need, and cannot or will not give it to you. And it seems insurmountable, without somebody *constantly* giving instructions/encouragement to me...which just isn't possible in the real world. I'm sure you know how that can feel at times. Transference stuff, I guess.
Anyway, sorry to go on and on, about it seems to be, I'm saying "yeah, but I can't."
groans...
BB
I know there are tools that I can use...my problem seems to be in finding the motivation, and *remembering* to actually use them. It's likehere I am at the bottom of this hole, and I have a pickax and a rope sitting there that I have *some* idea how to use, but I keep failing, cause it's just plain too hard realistically as I'm in terrible "physical condition"...so I give up, and I'm just waiting for womebody to come along and shout down to me, "yo- BB- Take the pickax, and dig it into the side...good. Now climb up there..." you get the picture. Or I get discouraged, because sometimes it feels like my T just comes along and pokes his head down the hole to see how I'm doing, and I tell him "well, I'm starving to death, I have no water, and I could use some encouragement" to which he replies "I'm here" and then promptly walks away again. I have to build something from the ground up, by myslef, with him kinda coming over to watch from time to time...when I Yell really loudly that I need him to..and I'm just not sure if I need somebody to come over and watch from time to time... it hurts, and sometimes discourages, y'know, to have this person there who has everything you need, and cannot or will not give it to you. And it seems insurmountable, without somebody *constantly* giving instructions/encouragement to me...which just isn't possible in the real world. I'm sure you know how that can feel at times. Transference stuff, I guess.Anyway, sorry to go on and on, about it seems to be, I'm saying "yeah, but I can't."
groans...BB
BB - I'm sorry if I was short when I answered. I guess it's just the place I'm in. As for doing, I just do. I guess it's the survival mode where I just keep moving. Things have to get done. I have no one to take care of me but me, so if I don't move and do what I need to I'm done. There really is no feeling or anything involved, it kind of feels like I'm a zombie but I'm still moving ya know?
Sorry if I'm not all helpful here but I do feel for you and hope you can do better than me.
Smiley
Sorry if I'm not all helpful here but I do feel for you and hope you can do better than me.
Smiley
BB,
I didn't read your first post but I can really relate to what you have said in your last post. I have felt completley unmotivated recently...I keep wishing someone would give me a good kick up the backside (and keep kicking) to get me into motion
From what you say though...it sounds to me like you are being really hard on yourself and expecting alot of yourself. I understand how hard it can be to know what to do for the best but not be able to carry it out and also to need the extra support. BB...it's ok to take a break and be however you need to be. Small steps.
Lots of hugs.(((((BB)))))
Butterfly
I didn't read your first post but I can really relate to what you have said in your last post. I have felt completley unmotivated recently...I keep wishing someone would give me a good kick up the backside (and keep kicking) to get me into motion
From what you say though...it sounds to me like you are being really hard on yourself and expecting alot of yourself. I understand how hard it can be to know what to do for the best but not be able to carry it out and also to need the extra support. BB...it's ok to take a break and be however you need to be. Small steps.
Lots of hugs.(((((BB)))))
Butterfly
Thank you Smiley, Kashley, Mac, BG and DF, for all of your kind replies to me. And thank you Butterfly! It's nice to see you again, fluttering about! The idea that I'm expecting too much from myself, is one that my SD is always reiterating, but I keep forgetting. Thanks for the reminder, that's a tough one for me to get a handle on.
I'm trying to put something into words that is coming very hard for me. It has to do with, that I think I should leave T, and SD, but I can't quite get a handle on the thoughts, I keep spacing them out. I'm really thinking I should try to put the thoughts/feelings into words, since, I think these are the thoughts that are deeply bothering me under the surface at all times. But I think it's triggery stuff, too. I wouldn't want to trigger someone else who may be floundering a lot in therapy into a state of thinking they should leave- by my posting about it. Confusing. I could do in my journal...but, sometimes, just sharing, and getting such supportive and thought provoking feedback, is the most helpful thing of all..U have to think.
I'm trying to put something into words that is coming very hard for me. It has to do with, that I think I should leave T, and SD, but I can't quite get a handle on the thoughts, I keep spacing them out. I'm really thinking I should try to put the thoughts/feelings into words, since, I think these are the thoughts that are deeply bothering me under the surface at all times. But I think it's triggery stuff, too. I wouldn't want to trigger someone else who may be floundering a lot in therapy into a state of thinking they should leave- by my posting about it. Confusing. I could do in my journal...but, sometimes, just sharing, and getting such supportive and thought provoking feedback, is the most helpful thing of all..U have to think.
BB...I know I have posted before about my fear of triggering others...but like I was told if you put a trigger warning then those who want to can read. Also it sounds like it would be really helpful for you to share and get some support...and could also be helpful to others as we are each individuals and find different things triggering/helpful.
Also I may be being really thick so I apologise...but what is SD?
Butterfly
Also I may be being really thick so I apologise...but what is SD?
Butterfly
oh, no...Butterfly, you are not being thick at all! SD is just my shorthand for Spiritual Director/Direction. A priest who is helping me to tackle some of the self-hatred and despair and learn to view things and practice my faith with a bit more love, mercy, tolerance for myself, permission to heal-...all of that. Interestingly, it is quite easy for me to extend that to others from my heart, even though I have strong views on relative truth- (I don't beleive truth can ever be relative, as the statement itself is a contradiction in terms) I am not able to put into practice, for myself, mercy but condemn myself very bitterly Since a lot of this pain seems to reside in the emotions, it's just really hard to route without someone replacing my old, ancient idea of myself with a new idea of myself, as a good, lovable, worthy person- 
something I actually find hard to type in reference to myself. If that makes any sense. So, I'm in the hole, kinda wiating, hoping for this person/father figure or whatever- to come along and *stay* until I am out- and replace my poor idea of myself. That's kinda what I think/feel, Idk if any of it is true, or right. Maybe I really *do* have to do it *for myself* as is so often repeated. Create a new self-image somehow. I just can't see how to do it without this father-figure type of person who gives freely, often without even being asked.. (begged, as I often experience my humiliating transactions with my T) Maybe I think too deeply about it. I attached so much to my T. I think he *tolerates* my attachment to him....and that feels like the past. Like I am allowed to *be there* -but I am not *really wanted.*
I had a dream. Lately I've been having dreams...in the dream, I'm looking at a photograph. (photos are triggery things for me, as I have no photos of my childhood in my possession- but I have seen a couple photos of myself when I was small)
In the photo, is my darling T, looking all sweet and wise as usual. He is grinning at the camera from ear to ear, because he is holding a little girl, all snuggled up to him on the chair. She is looking serious. I assume the little girl is *his own* little girl. He looks very happy in the picture. Then, I look a little closer at the photo, and notice, that the little girl now looks just like I did when I was small- blonde really messy hair and brown eyes, dirty face. I immediately notice that the expression on my T's face changes in the photo...suddenly, he looks like his smile is completely fake. And I notice now clearly that his arm is just loosely holding this little girl who looks like me, and that it's she who is the one who is all snuggled up to him. Now he looks like he is alone, though she is right there. He no longer looks happy about holding her to me. Now, his face looks fake and kind of blank/unhappy about the situation. I wake up.
I have had dreams that are equally as positive about my T and left me feeling very warm- as this one was obviously negative, too though, so it doesn't give me any information about how I feel, except for ambivalence, I suppose.
But I think the dream is telling me the reasons deep inside why I think I have to leave T and SD.
I can't really put it into words yet...when I do I will put the trigger warning as Butterfly wisely suggests. I just worry about my thoughts on this triggering people to leave T- that may be very wrong for them. As it *may* even be for me.
Since a lot of this pain seems to reside in the emotions, it's just really hard to route without someone replacing my old, ancient idea of myself with a new idea of myself, as a good, lovable, worthy person- something I actually find hard to type in reference to myself. If that makes any sense. So, I'm in the hole, kinda wiating, hoping for this person/father figure or whatever- to come along and *stay* until I am out- and replace my poor idea of myself. That's kinda what I think/feel, Idk if any of it is true, or right. Maybe I really *do* have to do it *for myself* as is so often repeated. Create a new self-image somehow. I just can't see how to do it without this father-figure type of person who gives freely, often without even being asked.. (begged, as I often experience my humiliating transactions with my T) Maybe I think too deeply about it. I attached so much to my T. I think he *tolerates* my attachment to him....and that feels like the past. Like I am allowed to *be there* -but I am not *really wanted.*I had a dream. Lately I've been having dreams...in the dream, I'm looking at a photograph. (photos are triggery things for me, as I have no photos of my childhood in my possession- but I have seen a couple photos of myself when I was small)
In the photo, is my darling T, looking all sweet and wise as usual. He is grinning at the camera from ear to ear, because he is holding a little girl, all snuggled up to him on the chair. She is looking serious. I assume the little girl is *his own* little girl. He looks very happy in the picture. Then, I look a little closer at the photo, and notice, that the little girl now looks just like I did when I was small- blonde really messy hair and brown eyes, dirty face. I immediately notice that the expression on my T's face changes in the photo...suddenly, he looks like his smile is completely fake. And I notice now clearly that his arm is just loosely holding this little girl who looks like me, and that it's she who is the one who is all snuggled up to him. Now he looks like he is alone, though she is right there. He no longer looks happy about holding her to me. Now, his face looks fake and kind of blank/unhappy about the situation. I wake up.
I have had dreams that are equally as positive about my T and left me feeling very warm- as this one was obviously negative, too though, so it doesn't give me any information about how I feel, except for ambivalence, I suppose.
But I think the dream is telling me the reasons deep inside why I think I have to leave T and SD.
I can't really put it into words yet...when I do I will put the trigger warning as Butterfly wisely suggests. I just worry about my thoughts on this triggering people to leave T- that may be very wrong for them. As it *may* even be for me.
BB,
I'm sorry you are struggling so much. I read your original post and was going to come back to reply when I had more time, but didn't get back before it was deleted. While I think that there is something to be said for putting one foot in front of the other and trying to keep going, I don't think that "fake it til you make it" works with such core issues. It isn't going to make the core issues go away. Sure, you may get a great deal accomplished, but the underlying issues will still be there. Addressing the underlying problem that is causing the symptoms is the way to get better IMO. It sounds like you are struggling with feeling like your T is really there for you. I still wonder if some of that is a function of the mode of delivery of your therapy (online). I haven't done online therapy, but I know that much of the really deep work that I do with my T would not work in that type of setting. I could be way off base here as I can only guess based on what you have posted. It just sounds like you need a higher level of support and contact than you are getting based on your posts.
As far as worrying about triggering others, I say post what you need/want to and if you want to add a trigger warning fine. Everyone here is an adult and can choose what is safe for him/her to read.
((((BB))))
I'm sorry you are struggling so much. I read your original post and was going to come back to reply when I had more time, but didn't get back before it was deleted. While I think that there is something to be said for putting one foot in front of the other and trying to keep going, I don't think that "fake it til you make it" works with such core issues. It isn't going to make the core issues go away. Sure, you may get a great deal accomplished, but the underlying issues will still be there. Addressing the underlying problem that is causing the symptoms is the way to get better IMO. It sounds like you are struggling with feeling like your T is really there for you. I still wonder if some of that is a function of the mode of delivery of your therapy (online). I haven't done online therapy, but I know that much of the really deep work that I do with my T would not work in that type of setting. I could be way off base here as I can only guess based on what you have posted. It just sounds like you need a higher level of support and contact than you are getting based on your posts.
As far as worrying about triggering others, I say post what you need/want to and if you want to add a trigger warning fine. Everyone here is an adult and can choose what is safe for him/her to read.
((((BB))))
Thank you so much, STRM...I really appreciate your care and concern about, that my therapy is online. My T has actually expressed the very same concern! And yes, I admire Smiley and the others for putting one foot in front of the other...like you I really *do* think that is amazingly heroically good...and, like Smiley said, "at least I'm moving." She is getting things done for others and herslef, despite the fact that she feels no personal satisfaction...and I feel that is *heroic* and *commendable.* In some way, that is the point I am trying to get to. To be able to put myself aside and just *do what needs to be done, whether it feels good to or not.* I think that path is hugely beneficial, in unseen ways. But, my heart really aches, for those who are on that path...the path of real suffering. ((((((hugs for all who feel like zombies, but are actually living examples of love)))))))) I understand the other stuff you are talking about as well...that the underlying problem must be cured before one can experience "symptom" cure. Thank you for that, STRM...
***triggers, maybe, if you are thinking of leaving or breaking from T****
What am I doing in T? What am I trying to accomplish? What are my goals? I want to learn to know who I am- and not be afraid to *be* who I am. I'm hoping for positive changes in my day-to-day functioning. To improve primary relationships between myself and my kids, and my spouse. Be able to think more clearly, wnat to live, and have a desire to be on this earth accomplishing something, I have *no idea what.* To learn how to enjoy something, instead of get through each day, just waiting for that day to be over so I can sleep again. To be able to say *no* to myself. To not wake up in tears or pain or numbness every day, and not even be able to figure out why. To play the piano again, because *I want to* and not to impress or gain the affection of the world at large, which is such a hopeless endeavor, anyway. To lose this sense of waiting...just waiting.. To be able to receive love...and give it, even when hard to do. To reconnect more meaningfully with my faith, and lose the terrible fear attached to the practice of certain things that are meant to bring peace and joy and not fear- within it. And mostly...*not* to do, whatever that strange, empty, indescribable thing that was done to me is, to my own kids!
Is T really helping me with all these goals? As STRM wisely says...it's internet therapy. As my T says, there is this barrier between us...atha makes it very difficult. I wonder sometimes, if my T had known my issues when he accepted me as a client, would he have still gone through with it? Or would he have known that someone in the room, as he has now said is crucial for marriage counseling, is also essential for me as an individual? But I want to "work through the transference" as they say. I am attached. There is not much, can be done about that, despite the less than ideal circumstances. Unless I of my own accord...detach. eeek. Doesn't feel...possible. Without shutting off all feelings, as I have now been taught *not* to do...ultimately, I need *my* T. TN understands this, as do all of you. It's *my* T that matters. The most wonderful T, for me. Not some other T. But.... yes, it was a mistake. I didn't know, at the time I contacted, what therapy entailed...in my defense. (It's funny- I just wrote "entrailed"
by accident- anybody ever notice their typos? I know I do!)
Just thoughts, outloud, I guess...sorry everybody. Read on, or not... this is long...
is it boring? Is my story boring? This comes out in T a lot.
Why do I wnat to leave? Why? I can't pin it down. My T said: "If you are not meeting tangible goals, than I have a responsiblity to my clients. It can happen that clients will "spend piles of money" just ever more deeply attach to their therapist, without ever making progress" Something like that, he said. Is that what is happening for me? My T has said he "has a responsibility" to his clients to make sure that this doesn't happen. Money. am I money to him? The sum total of dollars and cents- and his "effectiveness" at ridding me of my "symtoms?"
I think I should leave, because, ultimately in SD or T, I am looking for love...is love available to me there? Some would say yes...I am not so sure... there is something about their impartiality and reserve and self-restraint and so on, that actually *attracts* me. But love? What is love? Can a *good* father be impartial and restrained about his daughter? No... I guess I am looking for a father.
They bring no emotion of their own to this...that's what hurts... badly. I've been there before. And, "I have no time for you, right now...or maybe ever unless you yell loud enough to pierce my consciousness" Many other things and people are *more important than you* -no matter *how* much pain and need you are in. I know that from the past. Other things and people matter a lot more than whatever pain or need I happen to have. Should I scream? That's what I used to do...that didn't work either. Nothing "works." Except, giving until there is nothing left of me. Is that healthy, loving giving...or something else? Is that, secretly, grasping...I am confused about that. I know that there is a self-emptying love that is healthy... and I know that just about everything positive has it's opposite negative, -that looks pretty much the same- in deceitful ways.
What am I doing in T? Is it positive or negative? If it's negative, than I neee to, at least, break... if it's positive.. than carry on- persevere, in spite of confusion and difficulty...which is it? How can I know?
T says the answer is...am I "getting anything out of it..." I have NO IDEA! Am I? I can look at myself. Big deal...Am I more loving? that's what I really want to know...
How can I know?
Nothing *seems* to change...is it hopeless?
Where is my T when I need him? I need him now! I can;t have his input or his care, no matter *how much* I need it, right now...should I quit? should I leave? Is it better to function alone than with the constant wish and hope for something I can never have...in spite of all his insight and care?
Am I wasting his time?
That's the big question...that I can't really wrap my midn around...am I a waste of his time?
ugh...
spew...sorry.
BB
***triggers, maybe, if you are thinking of leaving or breaking from T****
What am I doing in T? What am I trying to accomplish? What are my goals? I want to learn to know who I am- and not be afraid to *be* who I am. I'm hoping for positive changes in my day-to-day functioning. To improve primary relationships between myself and my kids, and my spouse. Be able to think more clearly, wnat to live, and have a desire to be on this earth accomplishing something, I have *no idea what.* To learn how to enjoy something, instead of get through each day, just waiting for that day to be over so I can sleep again. To be able to say *no* to myself. To not wake up in tears or pain or numbness every day, and not even be able to figure out why. To play the piano again, because *I want to* and not to impress or gain the affection of the world at large, which is such a hopeless endeavor, anyway. To lose this sense of waiting...just waiting.. To be able to receive love...and give it, even when hard to do. To reconnect more meaningfully with my faith, and lose the terrible fear attached to the practice of certain things that are meant to bring peace and joy and not fear- within it. And mostly...*not* to do, whatever that strange, empty, indescribable thing that was done to me is, to my own kids!
Is T really helping me with all these goals? As STRM wisely says...it's internet therapy. As my T says, there is this barrier between us...atha makes it very difficult. I wonder sometimes, if my T had known my issues when he accepted me as a client, would he have still gone through with it? Or would he have known that someone in the room, as he has now said is crucial for marriage counseling, is also essential for me as an individual? But I want to "work through the transference" as they say. I am attached. There is not much, can be done about that, despite the less than ideal circumstances. Unless I of my own accord...detach. eeek. Doesn't feel...possible. Without shutting off all feelings, as I have now been taught *not* to do...ultimately, I need *my* T. TN understands this, as do all of you. It's *my* T that matters. The most wonderful T, for me. Not some other T. But.... yes, it was a mistake. I didn't know, at the time I contacted, what therapy entailed...in my defense. (It's funny- I just wrote "entrailed"
by accident- anybody ever notice their typos? I know I do!) Just thoughts, outloud, I guess...sorry everybody. Read on, or not... this is long...
is it boring? Is my story boring? This comes out in T a lot.
Why do I wnat to leave? Why? I can't pin it down. My T said: "If you are not meeting tangible goals, than I have a responsiblity to my clients. It can happen that clients will "spend piles of money" just ever more deeply attach to their therapist, without ever making progress" Something like that, he said. Is that what is happening for me? My T has said he "has a responsibility" to his clients to make sure that this doesn't happen. Money. am I money to him? The sum total of dollars and cents- and his "effectiveness" at ridding me of my "symtoms?"
I think I should leave, because, ultimately in SD or T, I am looking for love...is love available to me there? Some would say yes...I am not so sure... there is something about their impartiality and reserve and self-restraint and so on, that actually *attracts* me. But love? What is love? Can a *good* father be impartial and restrained about his daughter? No... I guess I am looking for a father.
They bring no emotion of their own to this...that's what hurts... badly. I've been there before. And, "I have no time for you, right now...or maybe ever unless you yell loud enough to pierce my consciousness" Many other things and people are *more important than you* -no matter *how* much pain and need you are in. I know that from the past. Other things and people matter a lot more than whatever pain or need I happen to have. Should I scream? That's what I used to do...that didn't work either. Nothing "works." Except, giving until there is nothing left of me. Is that healthy, loving giving...or something else? Is that, secretly, grasping...I am confused about that. I know that there is a self-emptying love that is healthy... and I know that just about everything positive has it's opposite negative, -that looks pretty much the same- in deceitful ways.
What am I doing in T? Is it positive or negative? If it's negative, than I neee to, at least, break... if it's positive.. than carry on- persevere, in spite of confusion and difficulty...which is it? How can I know?
T says the answer is...am I "getting anything out of it..." I have NO IDEA! Am I? I can look at myself. Big deal...Am I more loving? that's what I really want to know...
How can I know?
Nothing *seems* to change...is it hopeless?
Where is my T when I need him? I need him now! I can;t have his input or his care, no matter *how much* I need it, right now...should I quit? should I leave? Is it better to function alone than with the constant wish and hope for something I can never have...in spite of all his insight and care?
Am I wasting his time?
That's the big question...that I can't really wrap my midn around...am I a waste of his time?
ugh...
spew...sorry.
BB
BB, I only have a few minutes and I want to respond more to your post later, but I just want to tell you that you are not a waste of your T's time or anyone else's time. Also, with your T saying he has a responsibility to keep his clients from spending money without progress...well, I interpreted that as your T saying that his clients (you), to him, aren't money. If he thought that you were spending money without progress, it sounds like he would have already done something about it.
But..BB, I really think you need someone in the room with you. You deserve to have all barriers removed between you and someone truly caring. Not saying that your T isn't caring, but without being there in person with him, there are some inherent barriers. From what you've said about your SD, I think he's really great and you definitely should not stop seeing him. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing where you're either all in therapy or you're not doing it at all. For me, I know that there is absolutely no way that I could make any progress doing therapy anywhere else other than in person. This is just me, however. I just think that when it comes to therapy, you shouldn't shortchange yourself. And even if you're not, you should never think that you're shortchanging yourself.
Anyway, I'm glad you posted again and elaborated a little more. STRM is right, we are all adults and it is each our own responsibility to judge whether it's right for us to read something. Don't shortchange yourself here, either.
Love,
Kashley
But..BB, I really think you need someone in the room with you. You deserve to have all barriers removed between you and someone truly caring. Not saying that your T isn't caring, but without being there in person with him, there are some inherent barriers. From what you've said about your SD, I think he's really great and you definitely should not stop seeing him. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing where you're either all in therapy or you're not doing it at all. For me, I know that there is absolutely no way that I could make any progress doing therapy anywhere else other than in person. This is just me, however. I just think that when it comes to therapy, you shouldn't shortchange yourself. And even if you're not, you should never think that you're shortchanging yourself.
Anyway, I'm glad you posted again and elaborated a little more. STRM is right, we are all adults and it is each our own responsibility to judge whether it's right for us to read something. Don't shortchange yourself here, either.
Love,
Kashley
quote:If he thought that you were spending money without progress, it sounds like he would have already done something about it.
In fact he has frequently encouraged me take a break, for this very reason...
But he seems to have a no termination policy, because he *just doesn't do that* no matter what. that's the way I see it, anyway. He told me that he has *never* given up on a client in his (considerable) carreer.
So, it seem like he's just waiting for *me* to be the one to take a break, or leave.
BB
Ah, I apologize, BB. I didn't realize he had been clear about it...I thought he had only ever been kind of vague.
Big hugs.
Big hugs.
no apologies neccessary, my dear...it's all stuff I have frequently thought about and pondered...none of the pain is in any way "your fault."
much love, sweetie, and thanks for the support- especially, what you are currently dealing with... ((((Kashley))))
BB
much love, sweetie, and thanks for the support- especially, what you are currently dealing with...
((((Kashley))))BB
Thank you for explaining what SD meant...that makes so much more sense to me now .
I really want to respond to you but am feeling absolutely drained right now...so will come back if thats ok.
I am really glad that you came back and posted BB....do you know..I could of written your post...those are exactly the questions I was asking myself during my time in therapy.
(((((BB))))) Thinking of you.
Butterfly
.I really want to respond to you but am feeling absolutely drained right now...so will come back if thats ok.
I am really glad that you came back and posted BB....do you know..I could of written your post...those are exactly the questions I was asking myself during my time in therapy.
(((((BB))))) Thinking of you.
Butterfly
Thanks Butterfuly...I'm sorry you were in the same place..how are things going for you lately?
I guess I just keep getting stuck in wanting my T to be my dad- and completely forgetting that it isn't possible. I wonder if he reminds me of this- but I just forget. I want to do the work of therapy, but I keep getting stuck in this infantile kind of sludge that doesn't let me go anywhere or do anything for myself. What the heck...I have to try to find a way out of this. Sometimes I feel like I'm emotionally an infant and cognitively an adult.
yuck. how to get unstuck? I think T is right, and I should take a break from him if I'm stuck. How can I make myself do it without shutting down on my emotions again...?
BB
I guess I just keep getting stuck in wanting my T to be my dad- and completely forgetting that it isn't possible. I wonder if he reminds me of this- but I just forget. I want to do the work of therapy, but I keep getting stuck in this infantile kind of sludge that doesn't let me go anywhere or do anything for myself.
What the heck...I have to try to find a way out of this. Sometimes I feel like I'm emotionally an infant and cognitively an adult. yuck. how to get unstuck? I think T is right, and I should take a break from him if I'm stuck.
How can I make myself do it without shutting down on my emotions again...?BB
Maybe it's like, I need to do a quick, clean break, without thinking so much...maybe I should just stop agonizing about it, and kind of just...mkae myself do it...I'm remembering that in the past, I used to make decisions that were too difficult that way...just shut down and go, just do it. I may send an email telling him I am really going to break, tonight. It just seems like maybe that's the thing that makes the most sense, since I don't really *progress.*
It just seems like maybe that's the thing that makes the most sense, since I don't really *progress.*
Hi BB,
You know, I've always just happened upon female Ts, but when I think about it (and I have, often)...I think it might be too painful to have a male T. If the relationship lasted long enough that I got comfortable and could be aware of my feelings regarding everything, I really think that I'd desperately want my T to be my dad. It's softened the blow a bit, I guess you could say, by having a female T first. Well, to be honest, one of the group leaders during my time in group therapy was male, but it was only 10 sessions and he was gay. I liked him a lot, but it never would have turned into a longing for him to be my dad. He was way too young anyway.
Try not to shame yourself for looking for love in a therapeutic relationship. I think that's what most of us crave, is to feel love and care that is mutual.
Go easy on yourself, BB...but do what feels right. If it feels right to tell your T that you want to take a break, then maybe that's what you need to do. Who knows, maybe it takes something radical and completely frightening like that to jump start a surge forward in therapy. BB, do you think you've made progress? From what you've told me, it sounds like you have. I was feeling horrible about asking for extra sessions, but my T asked me if I felt that I was discussing things that were important to me, and I said that I was. I was so grateful that she asked that question and not, "Do you feel like it helps?" I don't know what helps, because I don't know how to judge my own progress. But the question of whether I felt I was discussing things important to me made it easier for me to answer, because I did feel that way and I could be sure of it. In your sessions with your T, BB, do you feel like you are discussing things that are important to you?
You know, I've always just happened upon female Ts, but when I think about it (and I have, often)...I think it might be too painful to have a male T. If the relationship lasted long enough that I got comfortable and could be aware of my feelings regarding everything, I really think that I'd desperately want my T to be my dad. It's softened the blow a bit, I guess you could say, by having a female T first. Well, to be honest, one of the group leaders during my time in group therapy was male, but it was only 10 sessions and he was gay.
I liked him a lot, but it never would have turned into a longing for him to be my dad. He was way too young anyway. Try not to shame yourself for looking for love in a therapeutic relationship. I think that's what most of us crave, is to feel love and care that is mutual.
Go easy on yourself, BB...but do what feels right. If it feels right to tell your T that you want to take a break, then maybe that's what you need to do. Who knows, maybe it takes something radical and completely frightening like that to jump start a surge forward in therapy. BB, do you think you've made progress? From what you've told me, it sounds like you have. I was feeling horrible about asking for extra sessions, but my T asked me if I felt that I was discussing things that were important to me, and I said that I was. I was so grateful that she asked that question and not, "Do you feel like it helps?" I don't know what helps, because I don't know how to judge my own progress. But the question of whether I felt I was discussing things important to me made it easier for me to answer, because I did feel that way and I could be sure of it. In your sessions with your T, BB, do you feel like you are discussing things that are important to you?
I agree with Kashley completely and could not say it any better. Sometimes you have to step back and see the little things that really do show progress. For me it isn't any one huge thing that I can define, but rather many little tiny small things that I can look at and see progress.
Please keep us updated with what you decide to do. (((BB)))
Please keep us updated with what you decide to do. (((BB)))
Yup, she's a wise one, our Kashley, isn't she STRM? You too, by the way! Thanks you guys. I drafted a short email to my T delineating my thoughts about taking a break, and saying that I really think it might be a good idea...but I can't send it. I just can't. Problem is, Last week I sent him a completely open and honest email about my crap- deep stuff, that makes me feel ( or should make me feel) really ashamed. Granted, I told him if he wants to wait and read it in session, that's fine. But I never heard back from him...and now I'm realizing that I asked, can I have a session at the end of the email, which he probably never even read...or if he did, he is appalled at me for my openess about these kind of "despair" issues I always run into.
I find it SO difficult to ask for a session, that I'm thinking, it's just over, because I can't possibly ask *again* after an email like that and no response.(Even though, like how many times have I done that, over and over and over- and it hasn't killed me yet, yet, every time, I feel like it's going to.) Asking for/scheduling a session just doesn't get any easier, no matter how many times he forces me to do it, for some reason. And now, after that email, and no response...I just can't ask. Who knows maybe I'll hear from him on it, or on some matter- or, given long enough, he might say, what's up- though I really doubt that one, somehow- and that will open things up a bit...to know I'm still welcome..but I think, this time, I'm really done if I don't hear back, since, I really don't want him to read that email anyway, and if he reads it he may well be disgusted and not want me for a client anymore.
Maybe I'm avoiding asking for a session by thinking I have to take a break since I'm not progressing very well? The reality remains, that this far too expensive...and if I'm not "showing results" maybe my T is right, and I should break at a time like that. It's so much easier to take a break than to ask, right now.
BB
I find it SO difficult to ask for a session, that I'm thinking, it's just over, because I can't possibly ask *again* after an email like that and no response.(Even though, like how many times have I done that, over and over and over- and it hasn't killed me yet, yet, every time, I feel like it's going to.) Asking for/scheduling a session just doesn't get any easier, no matter how many times he forces me to do it, for some reason. And now, after that email, and no response...I just can't ask. Who knows maybe I'll hear from him on it, or on some matter- or, given long enough, he might say, what's up- though I really doubt that one, somehow- and that will open things up a bit...to know I'm still welcome..but I think, this time, I'm really done if I don't hear back, since, I really don't want him to read that email anyway, and if he reads it he may well be disgusted and not want me for a client anymore.
Maybe I'm avoiding asking for a session by thinking I have to take a break since I'm not progressing very well? The reality remains, that this far too expensive...and if I'm not "showing results" maybe my T is right, and I should break at a time like that. It's so much easier to take a break than to ask, right now.
BB
BB...Thanks for asking how I am doing...I am ok...but am trying to be careful as the littlest thing can really get to me at the moment so am trying to take good care of myself. Not always easy.
Back to your post
BB…your first paragraph states so clearly the answers to the questions you ask above. It sounds like you know exactly what you want to gain from therapy but the hard part for you is whether or not you are achieving or able to achieve what it is you hope for.
I think even if your T had known all your issues from the beginning you would not have developed the kind of relationship that you have built up now for him to determine that someone in the room may be better for you….even now…only you can know if working the way you do over the internet works for you. Maybe it isn’t enough and you need something more…but perhaps that isn’t something that you or your T would have been able to have gauged at the beginning…I don’t know.
BB…this was my exact problem and why I kept wanting to end therapy…not because I was ready but because I was scared of the way I felt about my T and I was too scared to be fully open with her so that we could work on it. I, like you didn’t realise what I was getting myself into when I first went into therapy.
I agree with Kashley about it just not being about the money with your T and I can also hear that you say he will not terminate a client but is encouraging you to take a break. I wonder how is he encouraging you? Also he may well not terminate you but it would be his place to let you know if it was in your best interest to stop therapy and it doesn’t sound to me that is what he is doing.
I think this is what I ultimately wanted to and for me perhaps got in the way of working on any issues I had. I think that yes love is available to you but perhaps not in the way that you would like which can be very hard to accept…I do believe though that it is possible to work through this need for love in therapy to come to a place of acceptance of how you do feel….but again this is very painful work. I never got that far and even if my T hadn’t stopped seeing clients I am not sure I would have been able to see it through. You are looking for a father figure…I guess I was looking for a mother. Accepting that they cannot fulfil this role is extremely hard but is also where the learning is I guess.
This was another worry of mine but BB it is not about him it is about you. It sounds like you are struggling with very real concerns so I can’t see how you would be wasting his time...but I also know how it is to feel that way. The therapy process really can play havoc with our minds and our feelings.
BB…if you do a quick, clean break…will that help? Will the feelings stop?
Again this is something else I thought about doing…and I did take little breaks every now and again but could never hold out for very long which made me more angry at myself. I thought that if I took myself away from the situation the pain might go away but for me it was alot easier said than done.
I can sooooo relate to this too…the amount of emails I sent and then thought how am I ever going to go back and face her but I did and like you say it hasn’t killed you.
BB…I am sorry I realise I have written a really long post and yet none of it feels helpful in any way to how you are feeling and what you are going through….I guess I just wanted you to know that I have been there…seriously I could have written all your posts so you are not alone. Only you know if a break will be helpful to you or if carrying on with the pain that it brings can help.
Is this something you can discuss with your T before deciding to take a break? I think that would be really helpful.
Let us know how it goes.
Hugs
Butterfly
Back to your post
quote:What am I doing in T? What am I trying to accomplish? What are my goals?
BB…your first paragraph states so clearly the answers to the questions you ask above. It sounds like you know exactly what you want to gain from therapy but the hard part for you is whether or not you are achieving or able to achieve what it is you hope for.
quote:I wonder sometimes, if my T had known my issues when he accepted me as a client, would he have still gone through with it? Or would he have known that someone in the room, as he has now said is crucial for marriage counseling, is also essential for me as an individual?
I think even if your T had known all your issues from the beginning you would not have developed the kind of relationship that you have built up now for him to determine that someone in the room may be better for you….even now…only you can know if working the way you do over the internet works for you. Maybe it isn’t enough and you need something more…but perhaps that isn’t something that you or your T would have been able to have gauged at the beginning…I don’t know.
quote:But I want to "work through the transference" as they say. I am attached. There is not much, can be done about that, despite the less than ideal circumstances. Unless I of my own accord...detach.
BB…this was my exact problem and why I kept wanting to end therapy…not because I was ready but because I was scared of the way I felt about my T and I was too scared to be fully open with her so that we could work on it. I, like you didn’t realise what I was getting myself into when I first went into therapy.
I agree with Kashley about it just not being about the money with your T and I can also hear that you say he will not terminate a client but is encouraging you to take a break. I wonder how is he encouraging you? Also he may well not terminate you but it would be his place to let you know if it was in your best interest to stop therapy and it doesn’t sound to me that is what he is doing.
quote:I think I should leave, because, ultimately in SD or T, I am looking for love...is love available to me there?
I think this is what I ultimately wanted to and for me perhaps got in the way of working on any issues I had. I think that yes love is available to you but perhaps not in the way that you would like which can be very hard to accept…I do believe though that it is possible to work through this need for love in therapy to come to a place of acceptance of how you do feel….but again this is very painful work
. I never got that far and even if my T hadn’t stopped seeing clients I am not sure I would have been able to see it through. You are looking for a father figure…I guess I was looking for a mother. Accepting that they cannot fulfil this role is extremely hard but is also where the learning is I guess.quote:Am I wasting his time?
This was another worry of mine but BB it is not about him it is about you. It sounds like you are struggling with very real concerns so I can’t see how you would be wasting his time...but I also know how it is to feel that way. The therapy process really can play havoc with our minds and our feelings
.BB…if you do a quick, clean break…will that help? Will the feelings stop?
Again this is something else I thought about doing…and I did take little breaks every now and again but could never hold out for very long which made me more angry at myself. I thought that if I took myself away from the situation the pain might go away but for me it was alot easier said than done.
quote:I find it SO difficult to ask for a session, that I'm thinking, it's just over, because I can't possibly ask *again* after an email like that and no response.(Even though, like how many times have I done that, over and over and over- and it hasn't killed me yet, yet, every time, I feel like it's going to.)
I can sooooo relate to this too…the amount of emails I sent and then thought how am I ever going to go back and face her but I did and like you say it hasn’t killed you.
BB…I am sorry I realise I have written a really long post and yet none of it feels helpful in any way to how you are feeling and what you are going through….I guess I just wanted you to know that I have been there…seriously I could have written all your posts so you are not alone. Only you know if a break will be helpful to you or if carrying on with the pain that it brings can help.
Is this something you can discuss with your T before deciding to take a break? I think that would be really helpful.
Let us know how it goes.
Hugs
Butterfly
BB, only a minute again - But, to me, it makes perfect sense that you would still have just as much trouble asking for another session as you did the very first time you asked, because you haven't gotten consistent responses. And those responses probably wouldn't even need to be a yes every time...but he needs to respond! And if he says no, he needs to explain while still remaining compassionate and tolerant of anything you might be feeling regarding his decision. I can't believe that it has even gotten remotely easier for me to ask for another session, but that's only because I'm starting to internalize that it's okay to ask and that I won't be judged for doing so. You deserve the same, and frankly it doesn't sound like that's at all what you're getting.
Please let us know how you're doing today. You don't have to be completely alone in this.
Love,
Kashley
Please let us know how you're doing today. You don't have to be completely alone in this.
Love,
Kashley
Thank you so much both of you for your responses and asking for asking..I'm still fighting with this lonliness/lethargy/foggy malaise that has me in it's grip, but I'm really going to try to snap out of it today. Underneath it seems to be an awful lot of pain about my T. Even if it's just 5 minutes, as DF has suggested in her mastery thread.
As far as deciding to take a break and having a session to discuss, I get so disorganized in my thinking that I can never stay on track in session. We had a session a couple of months ago to do just that- in all seriousness I was intending to break, and then, somehow, here I am having regular sessions and opening up more to my T than I ever have. Weird.
It's confusing. Sessions just never get used for what they were "intended" to cover. that can be frustrating sometimes. I get mad at myself for not being able to stay on track, be more organized in what we talk about...and I get hurt that he won't help me to do that. He seems to let me kind of flounder around, a lot...lately he's been feeling safer, though, for some reason...whatever he's doing is helping me to open up to him more, or maybe, I just have nothing left to lose.
Do I not get consistent responses from my T? that's something I haven't thought about, really. It feels like that sometimes. I know it is totally up to me whether we have a session or not. It is probably better to ask for a session in a separate, clearly marked email than one that has other questions or issues in it, since he's told me that he doesn't always have time to read those in depth or respond to them, which he has also expressed concern about. When he does respond, he charges me for his time. Email remains something that the ground rules are really movable on...I don't really know what to expect when I send him an email. He used to respond and not charge me. Then it moved to charging me. He said that if I want a response, he will committ to it but charge me. Now he charges me, if he responds, but I don't always get a response. Very often, I get an immediate response, which makes me feel weird when I get no response at all, I guess, wondering if it was what I said. I think I did the best when he strongly encouraged me to stop emailing and deal with all issues in session. Then he changed his mind after some time, maybe it's because I need between session contact so much, it seems- and said, we can do a combination of email and in session work if that is helpful to me. I can't find a boundary here, and it's making me nuts. I could potentially bombard him with 20 emails a day, it seems, without experiencing any fallout except, a lack of response. I guess this kind of makes me feel like what I do doesn't really matter, and what I say will be taken seriously only depending on how much time my T happens to have available at that moment, or his own (potentially?) changing inclinations towards me...I guess I really have to take the bull by the horns and just STOP emailing as it does seem detrimental...but it is soooo hard to stop when I'm "allowed" to, and find myself in agony, needing contact between sessions. Ultimately, it really is just beginning to feel like it doesn't matter at all to him whether I email or not, schedule a session or not- or exist, or not. I feel like I'm kinda giving up on trying to "get his attention." I'm just client no. 624, or whatever, what difference does it make?
Butterfly:
He encouraged me to take a break (or suggested it as a possible option, more accurately) every time I end up in this hole- it seems. It feels like I make a bit of progress and then fall back in every time. When I need him the most and have kind of given up on myself again, he suggests a break. While I understand that he probably has my best interests at heart, (as he is concerned about the expense involved for our family, it seems) still this feels like abandonment to me. "I can't deal with you when you are so helpless, BB- time for you to go away, so that I can stop feeling bad about my inability to help you you" Not probably what he's feeling, but that's how I experience it anyway. It's really painful! I suspect it has something to do with the past, because the pain is so raw around this, and such a pain makes no sense unless it's coming from someplace else inside of me. ouchy. I cna't let myself feel this most of the time, it's really sensitive, so I just don't think about it.
Butterfly your post is hugely helpful...please don't ever apologize for offering care and support, because it's a huge gift you gave me. I am thinking about everything you have written. I'm so sorry that you went through such a painful end with your beloved T. I hope that you will find someone to work with soon, if that's what you decide is best for you. Are you still on a break?
The same goes for you Kashley...but I worry about you trying to take care of me, right now, when you are feeling it difficult to post on other threads and so on...so please, only take care of you, and if it's helpful to you, too, than much appreciated...but do not respond if you are unable to, sweetie. There are seasons...maybe, now is time for you to rest, let others take care of you a little bit...but that's just a suggestion, I really appreciate your kindness and insight so much, and want you to know that, too.
Gosh this got long...
Even if it's just 5 minutes, as DF has suggested in her mastery thread. As far as deciding to take a break and having a session to discuss, I get so disorganized in my thinking that I can never stay on track in session. We had a session a couple of months ago to do just that- in all seriousness I was intending to break, and then, somehow, here I am having regular sessions and opening up more to my T than I ever have. Weird.
It's confusing. Sessions just never get used for what they were "intended" to cover. that can be frustrating sometimes. I get mad at myself for not being able to stay on track, be more organized in what we talk about...and I get hurt that he won't help me to do that.
He seems to let me kind of flounder around, a lot...lately he's been feeling safer, though, for some reason...whatever he's doing is helping me to open up to him more, or maybe, I just have nothing left to lose.Do I not get consistent responses from my T? that's something I haven't thought about, really. It feels like that sometimes. I know it is totally up to me whether we have a session or not. It is probably better to ask for a session in a separate, clearly marked email than one that has other questions or issues in it, since he's told me that he doesn't always have time to read those in depth or respond to them, which he has also expressed concern about. When he does respond, he charges me for his time. Email remains something that the ground rules are really movable on...I don't really know what to expect when I send him an email. He used to respond and not charge me. Then it moved to charging me. He said that if I want a response, he will committ to it but charge me. Now he charges me, if he responds, but I don't always get a response. Very often, I get an immediate response, which makes me feel weird when I get no response at all, I guess, wondering if it was what I said. I think I did the best when he strongly encouraged me to stop emailing and deal with all issues in session. Then he changed his mind after some time, maybe it's because I need between session contact so much, it seems- and said, we can do a combination of email and in session work if that is helpful to me. I can't find a boundary here, and it's making me nuts. I could potentially bombard him with 20 emails a day, it seems, without experiencing any fallout except, a lack of response. I guess this kind of makes me feel like what I do doesn't really matter, and what I say will be taken seriously only depending on how much time my T happens to have available at that moment, or his own (potentially?) changing inclinations towards me...I guess I really have to take the bull by the horns and just STOP emailing as it does seem detrimental...but it is soooo hard to stop when I'm "allowed" to, and find myself in agony, needing contact between sessions.
Ultimately, it really is just beginning to feel like it doesn't matter at all to him whether I email or not, schedule a session or not- or exist, or not. I feel like I'm kinda giving up on trying to "get his attention." I'm just client no. 624, or whatever, what difference does it make? Butterfly:
quote:I agree with Kashley about it just not being about the money with your T and I can also hear that you say he will not terminate a client but is encouraging you to take a break. I wonder how is he encouraging you? Also he may well not terminate you but it would be his place to let you know if it was in your best interest to stop therapy and it doesn’t sound to me that is what he is doing.
He encouraged me to take a break (or suggested it as a possible option, more accurately) every time I end up in this hole- it seems. It feels like I make a bit of progress and then fall back in every time. When I need him the most and have kind of given up on myself again, he suggests a break. While I understand that he probably has my best interests at heart, (as he is concerned about the expense involved for our family, it seems) still this feels like abandonment to me. "I can't deal with you when you are so helpless, BB- time for you to go away, so that I can stop feeling bad about my inability to help you you" Not probably what he's feeling, but that's how I experience it anyway. It's really painful! I suspect it has something to do with the past, because the pain is so raw around this, and such a pain makes no sense unless it's coming from someplace else inside of me.
ouchy. I cna't let myself feel this most of the time, it's really sensitive, so I just don't think about it. Butterfly your post is hugely helpful...please don't ever apologize for offering care and support, because it's a huge gift you gave me. I am thinking about everything you have written. I'm so sorry that you went through such a painful end with your beloved T. I hope that you will find someone to work with soon, if that's what you decide is best for you. Are you still on a break?
The same goes for you Kashley...but I worry about you trying to take care of me, right now, when you are feeling it difficult to post on other threads and so on...so please, only take care of you, and if it's helpful to you, too, than much appreciated...but do not respond if you are unable to, sweetie. There are seasons...maybe, now is time for you to rest, let others take care of you a little bit...but that's just a suggestion, I really appreciate your kindness and insight so much, and want you to know that, too.
Gosh this got long...
sorry for these massive posts...
I guess I'm realizing that I have this pattern...have a session-love my T for a couple of days- start to fall back- email-T- get a response, be ok, not get a response, fall further down- start to distrust him and forget how good the sessions are-decide he hates me or just doesn't even rmember who I am- decide to break- all of this seems to happen about one week. By the time the next session comes around or I end up asking for one if one wasn't scheduled, I'm kinda a complete wreck again. Then we have a session. I'm ok for a couple of days...the whole cycle repeats...
Please don’t apologise for your ‘massive’ posts…I like reading what you have to say but I don’t like that you have to go through it.
Again BB…I can really relate...I went in for many sessions intending to take a break and found myself booking in for another at the end. I also came out of many sessions kicking myself because I had completely forgotten to mention something I had originally planned to. I do think that this is the way therapy goes though…its hard to plan exactly what you are going to say and as feelings change and when 'in the moment' other things may come to surface. It sounds like during this time you may not have done what you intended to but something else came about in the way he was working with you which makes you feel safe with him.
The emails are a strange one…not sure I would be able to handle a response one minute and then not the next…and also am I right in reading that he is charging you but even when he doesn’t respond to them? That doesn’t sound right to me.
I never imagined I would contact my T outside of sessions but once she made it clear to me it was ok I couldn’t stop myself…. even though I tried so hard. I am really sorry that you feel this is becoming detrimental to you…not surprising if you are waiting for a response that never shows. Please be kind to yourself though as stopping outside contact is no mean feat. Could you talk to him about how his lack of response makes you feel?
Did he give you a reason for suggesting a break…what use did he think you might gain from it…again could it be helpful to share with him your interpretation of this?
Yes BB..I am still on a break…I have tried looking up other T’s but just as I find one I like the look of I find a reason to not like them. Too much comparing methinks. Also I think I am still taking in everything that came up from my relationship with last T…and I am learning lots by being here about what I went through…I told my last T that I was going to learn to rely on myself without her but am thinking that might not last long as some support would be really nice right about now.
Am sending good thoughts your way…and am hoping that the fogginess lifts soon…I used to tell my T many times that I needed to ‘snap out of it’...she would always tell me I was being too harsh on myself…maybe you are too…maybe rather than snapping out of it you could gently ease out if it.
Lots of hugs
Butterfly
Again BB…I can really relate...I went in for many sessions intending to take a break and found myself booking in for another at the end. I also came out of many sessions kicking myself because I had completely forgotten to mention something I had originally planned to. I do think that this is the way therapy goes though…its hard to plan exactly what you are going to say and as feelings change and when 'in the moment' other things may come to surface. It sounds like during this time you may not have done what you intended to but something else came about in the way he was working with you which makes you feel safe with him.
The emails are a strange one…not sure I would be able to handle a response one minute and then not the next…and also am I right in reading that he is charging you but even when he doesn’t respond to them? That doesn’t sound right to me.
I never imagined I would contact my T outside of sessions but once she made it clear to me it was ok I couldn’t stop myself…. even though I tried so hard. I am really sorry that you feel this is becoming detrimental to you…not surprising if you are waiting for a response that never shows
. Please be kind to yourself though as stopping outside contact is no mean feat. Could you talk to him about how his lack of response makes you feel?Did he give you a reason for suggesting a break…what use did he think you might gain from it…again could it be helpful to share with him your interpretation of this?
Yes BB..I am still on a break…I have tried looking up other T’s but just as I find one I like the look of I find a reason to not like them
. Too much comparing methinks. Also I think I am still taking in everything that came up from my relationship with last T…and I am learning lots by being here about what I went through…I told my last T that I was going to learn to rely on myself without her but am thinking that might not last long as some support would be really nice right about now.Am sending good thoughts your way…and am hoping that the fogginess lifts soon…I used to tell my T many times that I needed to ‘snap out of it’...she would always tell me I was being too harsh on myself…maybe you are too…maybe rather than snapping out of it you could gently ease out if it.
Lots of hugs
Butterfly
Thanks Butterfly...lots of hugs back to you...
Just to clarify, no, I'm sure my T wouldn't charge me for an email he never responded to, only ones he reads and/or responds to. I *think* the idea is, if it takes him more than a few minutes to read and/or respond, he will charge me for the time it takes him to do that by the minute. And yeah, it is hard to never know whether or not I will get a response when I write to him. The ball is totally in his court on that one.
As for his reason to take a break, he says he has a responsibility to his clients that they don't "spend piles of money without making any progress, just to deepen the attachment." I can see the logic of this, but it just really hurts, badly...and makes me *want* to break. I have no desire to be the client that has this negative focus in his mind...it makes me feel like I'm so clingy, and he will tolerate my attachment to him, because he doesn't terminate clients, but the real purpose therapy has a lot to do with cost-effectiveness. I think of the phrase "it's nothing personal." He also said a couple of months ago, that maybe I should break, to "see if I miss anything that I get from him." I just find it painful that my T will *never* suggest that I might actually need to see *more* of him, or even say well, let's schedule the next session- because he wants me to learn to make decisions for myself, which does make perfect sense- but that he *is* willing to suggest that I *stop* seeing him...I find this confusing. I think his thinking in suggesting a break, probably is in my best interests, and maybe, some of his, too. After all, if this client is not progressing, why should she continue to spend "piles of money" on something that isn't helping, apparently- and maybe, he's thinking, "I could use this time to work with a client who is actually self-motivated, and makes me feel good about my skills." I don't know. Maybe that's not fair. Of course he wants to see progress in his clients. It actually says a lot that he doesn't terminate me outright- since I don't fit this bill. I wish I could just *decide* to make progress. And I just wish so much that instead of saying take a break, he would say, "hm this doesn't seem to be working, what can we try differently?" Work together with me on a plan, instead of just leaving everything totally up to me to come up with all the time. What is the definition of support? Hm, now that I think about it, he might be doing a bit more if this lately...he did ask me if I wanted a reminder to order some supplement. But I knew he would forget. As it turns out I did remember anyway.
I can't imagine how difficult it must be to try to find a new therapist after ending with one you liked so much, and not compare...it just seems built in that you would compare, doesn't it? ugh. I really feel for you. Glad that you seem to be able to use this time to learn and think, though...yes, if you can find good support, that is really good. I hope you will be able to!
Take care, many hugs back, and much appreciation- to everybody!
BB
Just to clarify, no, I'm sure my T wouldn't charge me for an email he never responded to, only ones he reads and/or responds to. I *think* the idea is, if it takes him more than a few minutes to read and/or respond, he will charge me for the time it takes him to do that by the minute.
And yeah, it is hard to never know whether or not I will get a response when I write to him. The ball is totally in his court on that one.As for his reason to take a break, he says he has a responsibility to his clients that they don't "spend piles of money without making any progress, just to deepen the attachment."
I can see the logic of this, but it just really hurts, badly...and makes me *want* to break. I have no desire to be the client that has this negative focus in his mind...it makes me feel like I'm so clingy, and he will tolerate my attachment to him, because he doesn't terminate clients, but the real purpose therapy has a lot to do with cost-effectiveness. I think of the phrase "it's nothing personal." He also said a couple of months ago, that maybe I should break, to "see if I miss anything that I get from him." I just find it painful that my T will *never* suggest that I might actually need to see *more* of him, or even say well, let's schedule the next session- because he wants me to learn to make decisions for myself, which does make perfect sense- but that he *is* willing to suggest that I *stop* seeing him...I find this confusing. I think his thinking in suggesting a break, probably is in my best interests, and maybe, some of his, too. After all, if this client is not progressing, why should she continue to spend "piles of money" on something that isn't helping, apparently- and maybe, he's thinking, "I could use this time to work with a client who is actually self-motivated, and makes me feel good about my skills." I don't know. Maybe that's not fair. Of course he wants to see progress in his clients. It actually says a lot that he doesn't terminate me outright- since I don't fit this bill. I wish I could just *decide* to make progress. And I just wish so much that instead of saying take a break, he would say, "hm this doesn't seem to be working, what can we try differently?" Work together with me on a plan, instead of just leaving everything totally up to me to come up with all the time. What is the definition of support? Hm, now that I think about it, he might be doing a bit more if this lately...he did ask me if I wanted a reminder to order some supplement. But I knew he would forget. As it turns out I did remember anyway. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to try to find a new therapist after ending with one you liked so much, and not compare...it just seems built in that you would compare, doesn't it? ugh. I really feel for you. Glad that you seem to be able to use this time to learn and think, though...yes, if you can find good support, that is really good. I hope you will be able to!
Take care, many hugs back, and much appreciation- to everybody!
BB
Sorry BB...I did read earlier that he didn't want you to pay piles of money only to deepen the attachment but didn't realise that was the reason he was encouraging you to take a break.
It's a shame he cant work with you on working through the attachment you have already developed rather than asking you to take a break from it all...if only it was as simple to take a break from how we feel. I'm really sorry you are in this position.
(((((BB)))))
Butterfly
It's a shame he cant work with you on working through the attachment you have already developed rather than asking you to take a break from it all...if only it was as simple to take a break from how we feel. I'm really sorry you are in this position.
(((((BB)))))
Butterfly
thank you Butterfly
BB, it's no problem to post, especially to just extend some support when you're in such a painful and confusing place. Please post as much as you want and need and don't worry about your posts being too long. I'd just hate to think of you unnecessarily suffering by yourself for fear of doing something 'wrong' here.
Take care, dear BB.
Btw Butterfly, I'm not sure if we've crossed paths yet (sorry if I forgot..I'm bad with that), but I just wanted to say hey.
Take care, dear BB.
Btw Butterfly, I'm not sure if we've crossed paths yet (sorry if I forgot..I'm bad with that), but I just wanted to say hey.
quote:I'd just hate to think of you unnecessarily suffering by yourself for fear of doing something 'wrong' here.
thank you so much for this Kashley. I think you are a mindreader. I feel like such a "taker."
BB,
You are definitely not a "taker". You are always so supportive and generous with everyone.
I wanted to comment on the cycle you speak of with your T because I think perhaps it might make you feel better. I've posted quite a bit about my relationship with my T. I see her 2 or 3 times per week and we have a very close and attuned relationship. Having said that, T and I had a session last Friday in which we both felt very close to one another. It was such an intensely attuned session and I know left us both feeling very connected to each other (she even said so). Fast forward to Monday and I completely f-ed up my session and toward the end T remarked about how "curious" it is that we can have a session like the previous one where we are so connected and then turn around and have the very next session be so disconnected. I told her it wasn't curious...it sucked!!!!!! My point is, it may or may not really be an issue of you needing to take a break as much as it's a normal part of the cycles of trauma therapy. I think it is the approach-avoidance that is typical of trauma clients. It doesn't mean that you are doing anything wrong, it's just your body throwing up defense mechanisms and it takes quite a while to untangle them. I can tell you that I've had this cycle with my T for nearly 18 months, but it does get better. We get back on track quicker, the disconnections are smaller and lately we've even been catching them while still in session and even started the repair immediately. It does get better, it just takes time.
(((BB)))
You are definitely not a "taker". You are always so supportive and generous with everyone.
I wanted to comment on the cycle you speak of with your T because I think perhaps it might make you feel better. I've posted quite a bit about my relationship with my T. I see her 2 or 3 times per week and we have a very close and attuned relationship. Having said that, T and I had a session last Friday in which we both felt very close to one another. It was such an intensely attuned session and I know left us both feeling very connected to each other (she even said so). Fast forward to Monday and I completely f-ed up my session and toward the end T remarked about how "curious" it is that we can have a session like the previous one where we are so connected and then turn around and have the very next session be so disconnected. I told her it wasn't curious...it sucked!!!!!! My point is, it may or may not really be an issue of you needing to take a break as much as it's a normal part of the cycles of trauma therapy. I think it is the approach-avoidance that is typical of trauma clients. It doesn't mean that you are doing anything wrong, it's just your body throwing up defense mechanisms and it takes quite a while to untangle them. I can tell you that I've had this cycle with my T for nearly 18 months, but it does get better. We get back on track quicker, the disconnections are smaller and lately we've even been catching them while still in session and even started the repair immediately. It does get better, it just takes time.
(((BB)))
Thank you STRM...that means a lot. I actually did send an email to my T today saying that I think we should break, though. It's kinda weird. I don't think of myself as a trauma client, but I seem to have so much in common with trauma survivors, that sometimes I wonder if I am one, too. (Maybe that sounds bad, but I just mean, I see myself as from a relatively screwed up family, but not trauma- I feel it minimizes trauma survivors pain to classify mine with it.) So I don't know why I do that cycle. I think I should stop spending so much money selfishly on therapy, since I'm not getting any better. Sure, having my T makes me feel better. Not having my T is basically, agony, I'll admit. But I'm not *getting better.* He basically said the same thing, awhile back, in so many words. just keeps playing in my mind, over and over... "there are some clients who will spend piles of money just to deepen the attachment..." ugh. I may as well cave. I just don't think I can do it anymore. Not unless I knew he thinks I should stick with it. He doesn't seem to. I don't know what I am hoping to accomplish anymore. We had a really good session the last time. Weird that I would feel this way, now, that things are getting so much better in T. The better things go in T the worse I feel in everyday life, and the less functional I become. Weird. I seem to do everything backwards. oh well. Lately my T has been so amazingly kind and caring and human- friendly...last session he even rang me back although he went overtime, because the computer thingy froze and disconnected us. He coulve just moved on, our session was over. But he called back to make a proper goodbye, something about that really got me. I do better when he feels mean, I think.
blech, I'll sign off now, sorry.
It's kinda weird. I don't think of myself as a trauma client, but I seem to have so much in common with trauma survivors, that sometimes I wonder if I am one, too. (Maybe that sounds bad, but I just mean, I see myself as from a relatively screwed up family, but not trauma- I feel it minimizes trauma survivors pain to classify mine with it.) So I don't know why I do that cycle. I think I should stop spending so much money selfishly on therapy, since I'm not getting any better. Sure, having my T makes me feel better. Not having my T is basically, agony, I'll admit. But I'm not *getting better.* He basically said the same thing, awhile back, in so many words. just keeps playing in my mind, over and over... "there are some clients who will spend piles of money just to deepen the attachment..." ugh. I may as well cave. I just don't think I can do it anymore. Not unless I knew he thinks I should stick with it. He doesn't seem to. I don't know what I am hoping to accomplish anymore. We had a really good session the last time. Weird that I would feel this way, now, that things are getting so much better in T. The better things go in T the worse I feel in everyday life, and the less functional I become. Weird. I seem to do everything backwards. oh well. Lately my T has been so amazingly kind and caring and human- friendly...last session he even rang me back although he went overtime, because the computer thingy froze and disconnected us. He coulve just moved on, our session was over. But he called back to make a proper goodbye, something about that really got me. I do better when he feels mean, I think. blech, I'll sign off now, sorry.