MH, oh I think I understand perfectly...
I am not really able to be angry at my T, but sometimes I feel so frustrated and annoyed, that I want to annoy him back, and yes, get a reaction of him.
What frustrates me the most is that I have no idea how to annoy him. The best way I came up with what asking him a series of stupid questions like a 3 year old: why this? why that? why not? why, why...
It bores me after a while though... but makes me slightly angry and happy that he doesn't really get mad, that he still seems to like (love?) the annoying child in me.
Don't really know what it is... is it childs behaviour trying to test the parent, or seek attention, or get on his nerves?

MH, what exactly happened to make you think that she doesn't like you anymore?
I don't think she would want you to leave therapy, but if you dont mind telling what made you think that she does?

quote:

I find myself recently trying ON PURPOSE to provoke my T, to see if I can get a reaction from her, or even to see if I can make her hate me.

I know this full well- and I had succeeded.
My T has been in practice about 30 years, and I had the distinct honor of being the only client he has ever yelled at. It was and is a very hard place to come back from. It even bothers me to write about it.
For me- you see, trust is such an incredible issue, and I always tell him that I need complete honesty, well I got just that!
During a spiritual discussion- he was reading something I wrote (we have different belief systems and I communicate my ideas often in writing) and he blew up at me. Saying something like- "this is shit" and "it is time for you to leave" as he stood up- turned his back and looked out the window. I was saying- sorry, sorry, sorry and crying (oh my I am starting to cry again remembering this) I asked him if I should leave, he said "yes it is time for you to go" That was on Good Friday. He was planning on coming to my Church service that night. He did come- but he was not friendly at all, he hardly talked, and I was the little girl- being punished. (really crying) And yes- I guess subconsciously I ws testing my T.

I might print this- and bring it to him because clearly it is still an issue, and it interferes with me trusting him. We don't talk about spiritual stuff much any more, and that makes me very sad, and alone, and now I just realized that there is someone else new in my life- even more important to me than my T (I know- hard to imagine- right) and our spiritual beliefs are different too. If he yelled at me for my beliefs, I would die. (OMG what a revelation this post is too me)

quote:

Originally posted by Mayo:
he blew up at me. Saying something like- "this is shit" and "it is time for you to leave"

Oh ((((((((((((((((((((MAYO))))))))))))))))))))

I am so sorry to hear that. I think I would upset be greatly to have an interaction like that with my T. Yes, I encourage you to discuss this with him again so that you can get the fullness of your feelings expressed and also to make certain no residual feelings about this incident with T get transferred onto the new person in your life. And tell T this too because it may affect your trusting of new person.

I'm curious to see what he thinks of the situation now.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Hatter:
I find myself recently trying ON PURPOSE to provoke my T, to see if I can get a reaction from her, or even to see if I can make her hate me.

I totally understand MH.
I haven't done anything (tangible) to make her hate me (I don't think) but I tell her more and more that I'm such a mean person. Actually, just yesterday I looked her right in the eyes and said "look, T, I am a shitty person. I'm mean and I hate people."

Gosh that sounds soooo stupid when I read it now. And of course it's not really true. And she just says "no you're not". She never believes me. So I feel like I have to keep saying it more and more until she does believe me. But then of course, I would just cry if she hated me. Ugh, what is that all about?

I think it could be a little control, a bit self-esteem, and a lot of protection. Protection because if she is mean to me I can always say that I deserved it because I'm a mean person and she knew that about me so I reap what I sow.

Self-esteem because I really do want to keep hearing her tell me I'm not a crappy person. No one tells me that I'm good or I'm okay, so I like hearing her be supportive. And the sure way to get that from her is to say the opposite. (wow, didn't even realize to this depth that this was going on til now - great topic!) So I say it to provoke a positive reaction while telling myself I want a negative reaction???

I also agree with it being a test too. Like if she suddenly said "yeah, I know, you are really mean and that's what I dislike about you" oh man would I be crushed. So I think I like pushing the mean stuff to see if she can accept me completely in all my shame, meanness, difficultness, anger, rudeness, etc.

It's good, sorta , that I'm not the only one... or maybe not so good...but your replies are helpful cuz I've been feeling WAY out there.

quote:

What frustrates me the most is that I have no idea how to annoy him.

LOL, I can relate to that, Amazon! My T is pretty good at hiding what her vulnerable buttons are. It probably makes it more of an irresistible challenge to seek them out. Maybe only after I've exhausted myself and come up with nothing I will be satisfied?

quote:

...but makes me slightly angry and happy that he doesn't really get mad, that he still seems to like (love?) the annoying child in me.

Yes, its like the comfort of reassurance that we didn't push them away, but the uncomfortable frustration that comes with not being in control, right?

quote:

MH, what exactly happened to make you think that she doesn't like you anymore?

Well, after I sent some sorta rude texts, she answered back that I didn't have to try so hard to terminate therapy, that I was free to leave anytime really. I took that as she wished I would.

quote:

My T has been in practice about 30 years, and I had the distinct honor of being the only client he has ever yelled at. It was and is a very hard place to come back from. It even bothers me to write about it.

Mayo, I am so sorry this was your experience, also sorry that my post has triggered bad memories for you. I related your story to my T today, to illustrate my paradoxical fear and need to test her to see if I could "break" her. The thing is, if I succeeded in provoking her, I doubt I could get over it either. My T said the same thing. She asked if your experience had hurt or helped you, and I said you still weren't completely over it, and she wasn't surprised. She said, "I won't let you control me. Because if you can control me, then you can't trust me." I would like to hear back from you if you decide to broach this topic with your T again, to see if the trust issues can be cured.

quote:

I think I like pushing the mean stuff to see if she can accept me completely in all my shame, meanness, difficultness, anger, rudeness, etc.

Hi Forlorn, I don't think we've officially met yet. Welcome and thanks for replying! This last comment of yours I think pretty much nailed what I'm feeling, even if I don't openly admit it to T. I've tried being the people-pleasing client. Now I want to know if T stays true when I am ugly and mean, or is her acceptance conditional after all?

My T said this behavior is all part of the dance of trust. She plans to stay still and let me test away as I move back and forth, closer and then more distant. She doesn't react with anger (so far) except if physical harm to self or others is involved. I think she basically takes all my acting out with a grain of salt. I've never been around someone whom I have such little control over, as far as either provoking a reaction or getting my needs met by pleasing. My T is apparently amused by my bewilderment.

mh, yeah, i do think it is part of the dance of trust and bonding. how bad can i be for mommy to still love me, can i push her away?? this unconditional love none of us ever got, we are still looking for, and sorry, but i think i am going to have to be content with psuedo-love, as i don't think i would ever get a t to love me.

i got sick of amusing my assh0le of a T1 and left him. unreactable, uncompassionate, inhumane...i gather there is a difference in not pushing their buttons and leaving them. idk, hope to not trigger anyone with my triggered anger at not being able to get compassion out of that guy, no compassion nor help....


it is so good to see i have recovered so well from that!! hee hee....

anyway, i do think i am a bit in the dance of how hard to push. i am pushing on monday and we'll see how hard the bond is, what she can take. my fear is, she is quite crafty, much smarter than t1, and i fear her craftiness, but i guess feel, right this split moment, that she will be ok with what i have to say. i guess they learn how to handle that.

the only time i saw her flinch was when i told her that i thought she was kind, i could see it in her eyes. that got her. was kinda sweet, and boy, don't you LOVE to TRIP your T!!!! instead of US always being the one caught off guard.

quote:

and boy, don't you LOVE to TRIP your T!!!! instead of US always being the one caught off guard.

Well, yeah, but then it also depends.
One time we talked about "the hug". That was a bit painful for me to talk and he tried to explain to me why he wouldn't give me a hug and said something like that: "I know it's difficult to ask and it's even worse..." . Then he caught himself and didn't finish the sentence. I was too busy pulling myself together to follow on that, but I remembered. Was he going to say : "to refuse?"

MH, I just wonder if your T replying to your rude texts in such a way was actually passing on the message that you can't control her even with the rude texts or whatever. That she still stays on top of that but will not tolerate certain attempts to cross the boundary. I don't really know. I don't believe she would want you to leave. She seems so wonderfull from the way you write about her.

Couple of days ago when I was leaving from my session, I walked past the place where I used to meet with my T before moving to his own office. There was a woman leaving and she looked so lovely, I think she smiled at me. I think she was one of the therapists working/training there. I told my T about seeing her and that if she was my therapist I'm sure I would love her so much. He replied that I thought she could make me happy. I don't know what I was going to say. That I would love her more than him and she would be better therapist than he is?

quote:

I don't believe she would want you to leave. She seems so wonderfull from the way you write about her.

The thought has crossed my mind that perhaps T was sad or hurt that I seemed to be bent on destroying our relationship, and she would prefer I just leave quietly rather than leave disruptively if leaving was my intent.

quote:

I told my T about seeing her and that if she was my therapist I'm sure I would love her so much.

I am curious why you mentioned this to your T. Do you know consciously know what your motivation was? I will tell you what scenario I am imagining and then you can correct me where I am off base: Perhaps you have a need which you feel your therapist isn't meeting, and something about this woman therapist and her demeanor makes you feel she would fulfill this unmet need(s). Maybe you are trying unconsciously to communicate this need to your T.

Hi MH, I think there are many reasons why we try to provoke our Ts. I know that I do it too. One reason is that I'm testing him to see if he will stay with me or ask me to leave because I'm being less than "nice". Will he still want to talk to me if I'm not a "good girl"? Another reason is, I think, that I want to see a "real" reaction from him, something totally spontaneous instead of always such thoughtful and carefully chosen answers. I want to see the real him. A third reason that I provoke him is because of my defensiveness. When I'm starting to feel that we are too close and that things are starting to feel really intimate I get scared and push him away from me because my brain is screaming that close=danger! BTW, I also accuse him of doing this. I tell him that when I get close HE moves away from me but I'm not truly sure if I'm projecting this on him or that he does really back away. Lastly, it could be that power struggle and the control issue. Sometimes when we have such strong feelings for our Ts we seem to lose control of the direction of therapy and we feel that they have all the power and we don't so. That we need them way more than they need us, so we try to hurt them in a way so we are not the only ones suffering in the relationship.

I can definitely say that I have tried to provoke my T and there is definitely that push/pull thing going on all the time in therapy.

Best,
TN

tn quote:

quote:

Sometimes when we have such strong feelings for our Ts we seem to lose control of the direction of therapy and we feel that they have all the power and we don't so. That we need them way more than they need us, so we try to hurt them in a way so we are not the only ones suffering in the relationship.

i had to gulp when i read that...oh, yeah, that is me. hurt them first and see if they will run. and my parents would withdraw, but i test people, test my husband at times (he never runs but does have boundaries on what he will tolerate...more early marriage times, now, he knows i am just a wreck)

i test friends, i am planning on testing T3 on monday...it is kindof like i don't mind shooting my self in the foot a bit just to see if anyone (she) cares. i don't know what to expect.

mh, your quote: "My T says I cannot control her by trying to always please her..."
THAT sounds like a good t, and good parenting to boot, i really like that boundary, and answer to your testing. mh, i think you are safe with her.

quote:

I want to see a "real" reaction from him, something totally spontaneous instead of always such thoughtful and carefully chosen answers.

I am always looking for a reaction. I guess I equate a T's being "in control" of themselves with not being real. Is it actually possible she has nothing to hide? No covered-up anger or boredom? No secret judgments? What, is she an android or a human?

quote:

I also accuse him of doing this. I tell him that when I get close HE moves away from me but I'm not truly sure if I'm projecting this on him or that he does really back away.

I've made this accusation/observation with my T as well, TN, and she always denies it. How does one know if it is projection or truth?

quote:

mh, your quote: "My T says I cannot control her by trying to always please her..."
THAT sounds like a good t, and good parenting to boot, i really like that boundary, and answer to your testing. mh, i think you are safe with her.

Well, I don't think I like the feeling of not being in control of her, but Jill, I do think I will share your comment with her in session tomorrow. She will get a satisfied chuckle out of it. And I hope you are right that I am safe with her. I have been reading so many horror stories on this forum lately about T's hurtful behavior that it is stirring up my panic buttons.

For example...TN, your stuff with your T lately would feel like abandonment to me, and I know it has to you too, even though he says it isn't. You have spoken highly of him so many times in the past that to have this happen...well, I just never thought it would with you. If it can happen to you, can't it happen to anyone? I guess if my T is going to get tired or frustrated or insecure about helping me and wants to get out then I'd rather find out now rather than later. So yeah, that has to be a big part behind this provocation.

quote:

I would be pissed if I could not have a hug with my T when I want one.... I wonder why some set that boundary and others do not?

Welcome, Provocative Girl. Like the name. There has been quite a bit of discussion here on that topic. Some here have T's with a strict no-hug policy, others get a hug every session, but I'm guessing most of us fall somewhere in-between. I, for one, receive hugs but not every time. Maybe I could if I asked, but I haven't been willing to ask because I don't think I could handle a "No" answer. But maybe that is another area I should get some guts to test.

quote:

I am curious why you mentioned this to your T. Do you know consciously know what your motivation was? I will tell you what scenario I am imagining and then you can correct me where I am off base: Perhaps you have a need which you feel your therapist isn't meeting, and something about this woman therapist and her demeanor makes you feel she would fulfill this unmet need(s). Maybe you are trying unconsciously to communicate this need to your T.

I think I might wanted to say that she would love me or I would feel loved be her, while because he is a man he can't love me and I can't even expect that.

Provocative Girl, welcome!
Well, my T does hug me, just not every single session. This is something we still need to talk about.

guys, i could have no more gotten a hug from T1 than the man in the moon, he was so TIGHT he could hardly give me a compliment. now i am seeing, perhaps AGAIN in life, that I wasn't the unlovable, unhugable one...it had more to do with THE OTHER ONE'S issues. again, i thought i was the problem. common theme, just wish it wouldn't get played out and reinforced in therapy.

but right yet, still new with t3, i don't think i want a hug yet...we haven't done the mileage.

interesting thread, MH, and being in control, i could never really WANT to be in control, so i am impressed with your confidence to handle that. curious what your t's comment will be, please post,

and mighty solid t you seem to have, PG to be able to know so firmly and confidently where those boundaries are. i think mine lacked the confidence or something was off. welcome on the boards pg, watch out, these nice people here are ADDICTING!! jill

MH - I do this all the time to my P but I still havent figured out why I do it. Sometimes I think its because I want extra attention from him and I know that I dont get that for being the good patient so I become the bad patient. The one way I know for sure he will get frustrated or mad at me is constantly calling him or texting him between sessions and so I will do it to get the attention from him. I have also hung out in his neighborhood and made sure he saw me, started a lawn mowing business working exclusively in his neighborhood, act like I have no idea what he is talking about in session when we have been discussing the same thing for three months. Anything that will annoy him or piss him off.

I am trying to come back from that and be more honest with him. I recently told him that I get more attention from him when I am being bad and that even the sessions go longer when I am bad or we are discussing the bad stuff I did between sessions than they do when I have been good. He has tried to make sure that doesnt happen and will purposely try to spend extra time with me when I am doing good.

I try to figure out why I do this but just havent been able to yet and it does get frustrating to me because I want him to enjoy seeing me as a patient and talking to me and I know as long as I act this way he doesnt really enjoy it because I am a lot harder work on him. And I have pushed him to the extreme where he stopped seeing me back in 2003 but I know he still cares and likes me because he did take me back as a patient a couple years later when he didnt have to. But I am starting to act like I did back then. I dont know if I am testing him, seeing if he is going to leave again before I really start trusting and opening up....I really wish I knew what caused me to be this way so I could maybe change it.

Hi MH,

Sounds like you're having a rough time like the rest of us.

quote:

I am always looking for a reaction. I guess I equate a T's being "in control" of themselves with not being real. Is it actually possible she has nothing to hide? No covered-up anger or boredom? No secret judgments? What, is she an android or a human?

I wonder this myself about my own T. But then I get a 'real' reaction from her and see she is all too real. Ugh. I finally had the courage to tell her she is like no one else I know and that I think she is a fun person (after she sat there trying to coax it out of me for ten whole minutes) and her reaction was to say, "Really? I'm a dime-a-dozen, MTF!" WTF? Sometimes I think I'd rather have the android responses.

I agree with Jill. You are safe with your T. It's clear that she knows what she's doing and that you're not going to push her around with your efforts to provoke her. I agree with you that you probably hurt her with the texts. It's obvious she cares about you, MH. But I hear your fears about TN's situation and know it's kicked up my own fears about my T and what it will take to get her to change her mind about me and send me packing. It's scary. Our relationships with our Ts are so darned important to us, and we seem so disposable to them. It's a very vulnerable place to be. But I think you're safe, MH. I don't think your T is going anywhere, or that she plans to send YOU anywhere, either. I hope by now you're feeling a lot better.

(((MH)))
MTF

quote:

I think I might wanted to say that she would love me or I would feel loved be her, while because he is a man he can't love me and I can't even expect that.

Amazon, it makes me really sad that you feel your T can't love you. I guess I too sometimes feel I can't expect love, but probably with male T's its more complex to sort out. Also as has been mentioned elsewhere, I think T's of the opposite sex tend to be tighter with their boundaries, perhaps too tight.

I talked to my T about hugs for the first time yesterday. Amazon, I told her how your T had given you hugs before, then refused for awhile and it was hard to sort out why. My T said she will sometimes refuse hugs, that she doesn't want her clients coming in expecting that they always get a hug no matter what. I asked her why she might refuse a hug, and she said one reason is if giving it would reward negative behavior. I said, "Like if I were having a temper tantrum and then wanted a hug, you'd say No?" She said, "That's right." I pointed out that as of yet I haven't really screamed at her or cussed up a storm or thrown things but maybe it was coming, heh heh. (I couldn't help smiling thinking of when you broke your T's clock. I bet that felt good. )

quote:

i could never really WANT to be in control, so i am impressed with your confidence to handle that. curious what your t's comment will be, please post,

Jill, I have to say that I never saw myself as having confidence, so please don't be impressed! I did share your comment in session yesterday, and T did smile and think you were wise. She reiterated that I can't control her because if she were to allow that then I wouldn't be able to trust her. Last week (after I had mentioned Jane's equine therapy) she compared me to a scared colt, and how part of earning the trust of a horse is to let it know who is in charge and that it won't get hurt.

quote:

I recently told him that I get more attention from him when I am being bad and that even the sessions go longer when I am bad or we are discussing the bad stuff I did between sessions than they do when I have been good. He has tried to make sure that doesnt happen and will purposely try to spend extra time with me when I am doing good.

Pippi, I think it is interesting that you recognized this pattern before he did and had to point it out to him. I mean, he's supposed to be the expert. Why didn't he see how he was reinforcing your behavior? But at least he listened to you and is trying to do better.

As to understanding our compulsion to repeat this potentially destructive behavior, I have read that it is the unconscious way we try to re-enact prior attachment trauma in order to gain some sort of mastery over it. Doesn't completely make sense to me either though.

quote:

Sometimes I think I'd rather have the android responses.

I'm sorry, MTF. I know you are right. I know if I succeed in provoking supposedly "real" responses I will be miserable afterward. Its like I have this drive to speed up the self-destruction of the therapy, almost like knowing you are going to die and just wanting to get it over with quicker rather than dragging it out.

quote:

I agree with you that you probably hurt her with the texts. It's obvious she cares about you, MH.

Yes, I am now in a regretful stage of this cycle, kicking myself wanting to be closer to T instead of further away. I've talked to her about TN's T and my fears. She reassures me she's not going anywhere. She repeatedly says, "In the end it won't be me who leaves, but you, when you're ready to fly."

quote:

"In the end it won't be me who leaves, but you, when you're ready to fly."

I love that. There is hope there, that we will be able and ready to fly. I can't imagine it yet. I wonder would it would be like, but I can't do this yet.

The thing about love is that I don't know if I am allowed to feel loved by him. I don't know if this is the point of therapy and I don't know how it would work. If he could never say that he loves me then how can I claim that he does? I don't want to take something that is not given to me. I don't get it.

However two things happened. Once I thought I could have tea with him in his new office and I sort of understood that he would make it. He said that he wouldn't. The other time he mentioned putting a bookshelf in his new office and bringing over some books. I asked if I could borrow a book then and he refused.

Now I sometimes buy tea or coffee in the coffee shop and have it during the session. Then I saw what book he was reading and said that even if he wouldn't loan it to me I still could get it on Amazon.
And then he said something about him not giving me something, but I could still get it myself sort of thing... I don't know. I really don't know.

MH, the thing about me breaking the clock, felt very ackward actually. I felt very self-counscious, but I did it, because... I could, I was allowed, I had a chance to do this?. I constantly complain about the clock and the time passing by in my session. He wouldn't let me damage or throw around anything else though. That was a one off event

quote:

I related your story to my T today, to illustrate my paradoxical fear and need to test her to see if I could "break" her. The thing is, if I succeeded in provoking her, I doubt I could get over it either. My T said the same thing. She asked if your experience had hurt or helped you, and I said you still weren't completely over it, and she wasn't surprised.

HI MH and Forlorn;
I have not been on lately and honestly I have not read all of the thread, but I wanted to tell you what happened when I brought this-(I had the distinct honor of being the only client he has ever yelled at. It was and is a very hard place to come back from. It even bothers me to write about it.) up to my T.

He said that it hurts him to know that it still interferes with our relationship, and he will apologize as much as I need for it. He takes full responsibility, and It happened because I triggered something from his past. I explained that my growth needs to come from not taking blame for stuff that is not mine. When someone yells- by the fact that they are yelling- I assume they must be right and that I am wrong and I caused the yelling, and I am the scared child again. I am now at least aware of this, and can sit back and observe and make a choice as to take responsibility or not. I still have trouble with knowing what is mine- and what is not mine (responsibility wise), and I still react- initially the same way, but the awareness is growth. The awareness comes from my T and I working through this, and he says it is us- not me, not him, us. It is part of our dynamics and together we will get through it. That is comforting to know.
Does it still hurt- my answer is yes, but sometimes the best growth comes this way- as long as I continue to stay strong and deal with it. We will trigger each other at times- because it is the process. This is a process that I believe in so eventually I will be stronger for it. I know that. And I know my T cares for me.
So Jill- your negative talk about your T will not trigger me- no worries. I am blessed to have a T that not only truly cares about me, but is also human and can admit when he makes mistakes.

He also wanted to borrow my book- A General theory of Love by Lewis et al.

I am thrilled! Great book