Monte,

Your response is awesome. I think I may have to lift some of it and present to my T on Monday. I totally feel this way.

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
It feels so hard to connect meaningfully with someone when the relationship is so one-sided and limited. It has always felt near impossible for me to make this emotional connection with someone that doesn't also want it (other than maybe for therapeutic purposes)...I mean, why would you bother? Where is the meaning and value in establishing something so unbalanced? What is the value of care and love when it has been solicited...even paid for? How many times as kids were we rebuffed, ignored, humiliated by our need for connection and the lengths we'd go to for it. How many times were we not loved back? The need to be loved is maybe not as powerful as the fear of being rejected (yet again) and so we go with the fear...and resist connection. I mean...WHAT NUTTER GOES HUNTING FOR MORE UNREQUITED LOVE?!

Exactly. It seems like it would be a very strange, half-way, confusing relationship, and I already have a enough of those. I mean, I certainly do already have a certain transference with my T, but it just seems unlikely that we could create some kind of replica of a past relationship and then fix it. Of course, I could be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
For me, deep down, the reluctance to connect is about not being satisfied with what's on offer to connect with. I am not giving a $100 response to a $10 offer. It feels like an insult. Aren't I worth more than the bloody crumbs that a stupid 'not-even-real' therapeutic relationship offers? Yes it is most definitely a wall I have around me, but I refuse to give myself as cheaply as I did as a kid...WHY WOULD I DO THAT?? I don't want pretend or scant rations of love and care, I don't want a metaphorical arm around me...my wounded child can see through that!! Give me a real arm, thanks. Be real or don't be at all.

Mine too. I mean, my defences are so strong that it seems odd to me to try and cut through them to make a connection with someone who I don't even know, but maybe there's more to it than that. Maybe it's not supposed to be a replica of a real relationship. Maybe the point is to connect just enough to get the work done that needs to be done, namely grieving and anger.

quote:

'Yeh, you're there I know...but I can't see past the limitations of your 'there-ness'.

For sure, but again, maybe the point isn't to create an obviously false relationship. Maybe it's to create a place that safe enough for me to feel what needs to be felt.

Seriously, I'm going to ask these questions on Monday, see what he says.

quote:

. Sometimes during such breaks I make the biggest strides in understanding.

That would be seriously friggin awesome. BTW, how long have you been in T?

Thanks, Monte. Great stuff.

russ, i haven't 'met' you but i appreciate your posts, and seeing things from a man's eyes.

i know your feelings, i am just two sessions into T3 and i asked her what her vacations plans are for the summer...luckily, few.

i am glad you are HERE, and please take full advantage of the support you can find here, would be one suggestion. we can know your need for additional 'handrails' at this time and offer this sort of group therapy experience to help. and 'we' all seem to feel good helping another, so don't worry about being a little more needy at this time.

just hugs to you. i will tell you, when my T1 was out of town for a week, it was a hard week, but he came back, and, lo and behold, i realized i had grown a bit, in holding on. i DO think, at least for me, the FEAR of fear is worse than what i FEAR i am afraid of, if that makes sense?? it is that paralysis of the state of fear that is so terrifying, and not to throw CBT out there, but in analyzing this blur of what i am afraid of, it is really SO UNLIKELY and i have EVERY RATIONAL THOUGHT to really know IT is irrational. T3 said something about 20 percent of the fear is real, the other 80 percent is 'the disease' we are in therapy to heal.

i hope that helps some?? but, don't be a stranger...reach out!! (())

Thanks jill!

I'm writing my T an email about all of this stuff, but I doubt I'll send it because a part of me isn't confident that it's ok to email him, especially on Father's Day. What does that tell you about me? But, I will print it out and bring it in tomorrow for our session.

I'm really hoping that something totally different will happen over the break this time, namely that I'll experience some unexpected growth or discover some new insight instead of just writhing in agony, anxiety and depression for the whole time.

For me, I only fear one thing, which is feeling like crap. I've been feeling like crap (anxiety, head fog, etc) for two and a half weeks now, and I feel like something just has to give. Something needs to break through, whatever it might be. Some long repressed set of feelings that I'm not letting go of...I wish it would just pour out of me and relieve the need for the symptoms.

But, I know that's magical thinking, so I'll just do my best.

It's strange. Before this current stretch of wretchedness, I was complaining to my T that I have to see him so often. I'd rather be out on a nice day after work going for a hike, hanging with friends or riding my bike. I asked him at what point do we start to talk about changing the frequency of our sessions. I think I need to stop doing that, because every time I get into that mindset, a bad period follows it. It's like the wounded kid in me is like, "oh no you don't. My needs have not been met! And you need another reminder." Does this sound crazy?

Thanks,
Russ

STRM, this makes total sense. And I think that's what my T meant when he said that there's a way for me to feel that his arm is around me, even if it isn't. I guess it's a kind of positive internalisation of my T. Luckily, I'm already internalising him to a degree. I can feel it. I can see it in how I respond to things and how I think about things. When he makes a joke or a funny remark, I feel a real connection with his sense of humor and the point behind it. But, there's a major part of the wall still there...the part preventing me from feeling that my pain is understood and sympathised with. But at least I'm not starting at square one with this.


This also makes sense. We don't really do body work in my T, but I can tell you that I experience 99% of my resistance in my head in the form of this foggy anxiety. It's like having a case of poison ivy on the inside of my skull that I can't get to to itch. When I'm triggered in any way, it's usually that.

Thanks STRM!

No worries! That's not how I took it. I do think that the mind and body are pretty much the same thing in many respects, including the head fog. It's just hard to pin point the connection sometimes.

Russ

Hi again Russ

I think you’re a bit like me (or I’m a bit like you lol) in that intellect and rationalizing and knowing things in our heads is our modus vivandi - for me it’s been (and still is) a matter of survival to have an intellectual understanding of just about everything that’s going on both inside me and out in the real world. Everything gets filtered through thought and words and that’s so automatic that with feelings it’s a real struggle for me to experience feeling as feeling. Always the mind jumps in and is investigating questioning rationalizing comparing to external reality and by the time I stop this (it happens in a millisecond) the feeling tends to have disappeared, I’m left with a vague (although at times terrifying and painful) sense of something going on inside me without being able to either access it or understand it. And if the feeling is a strong or threatening one (whatever it is!) I end up with the fog in my head as if something is ‘going on’ in my head but I don’t know what and that gets very frightening. Don’t know if something similar is what’s happening to you?

quote:

Maybe it's not supposed to be a replica of a real relationship.

I should jolly well hope not . It would really freak me out to have to experience a therapist as a ‘real’ person, with their own needs and wants and feelings and opinions and judgements and criticisms. The way I look at it is the therapist fills the role of ‘the good T’ - totally there for me, totally accepting of me and everything about me, totally on my side. The last thing I want (or need for that matter) is someone responding to me as they would in real world - that just perpetuates all the internal judgements, fears and self-blame I’m trying so hard to get rid of. That’s why trust is such a huge issue (well it is anyway isn’t it?)

I know for me that no T is ever going to be able to prove to me they are 100% trustworthy, it’s something I’m going to have to make myself choose to believe - a leap of faith. I actually had that trust sort of generically, but since having a shit experience with a particularly cold judgemental T that inner faith has been blown out the water. Nevertheless I know that I won’t get anywhere unless I can make that leap of faith again.

My walls funnily enough are built to keep me inside not to keep other people out - so maybe I’m a bit different there and it’s easier for me to breach those walls by choosing to trust without 100% proof (note I say 100% because I’m not about to trust someone just like that, they have to do some proving lol.)

I hear you trying to make connections between how you feel about your T and how you feel about your father - sure while it’s useful to think about connections and try and make sense of it all, at the end of the day once you go with the feelings the connections seem to arise all by themselves, intuitively. I’m speaking about me there, because I’ve made all the intellectual connections I need to with the past, but nothing has changed. It’s only IN an emotional moment that things seem to slot into place.

You know I’m wondering whether you wouldn’t get that full connection you are missing with your T if you let yourself respond to him as if he were your father (assuming you sense similar feelings that is, like anger, hatred, frustration etc). It certainly sounds as if he’s open to hearing how you feel about him.

Sorry I seem to be lecturing here, it’s all or nothing with me either I say bugger all or I give a great dissertation and I see I’ve barely touched on most of what you’ve said in your posts.

Anyway you have my full sympathy at having a two week enforced break - hope you can use this forum to keep you going during that time.

LL

Hi LL,

I'll try to respond to this post and your other one in the "Unbelievable bad session" thread.

quote:

It would really freak me out to have to experience a therapist as a ‘real’ person, with their own needs and wants and feelings and opinions and judgements and criticisms. The way I look at it is the therapist fills the role of ‘the good T’ - totally there for me, totally accepting of me and everything about me, totally on my side. The last thing I want (or need for that matter) is someone responding to me as they would in real world - that just perpetuates all the internal judgements, fears and self-blame I’m trying so hard to get rid of. That’s why trust is such a huge issue (well it is anyway isn’t it?)

Me too! My T would never make his story part of mine, but at the same time, I seem to lack enough of an emotional connection to him to make me feel that I can let down my guard with him. Maybe one thing doesn't have that much to do with the other after all.

I've been seeing my T for a little over two years. I see him three times a week, which should give you a good idea of the level of my difficulties. Of course, my sister was in classical psychoanalysis (5 days a week) for five years when she was younger, thanks to good old dad, so I guess it's not all that surprising.

My T is a little hard to describe. He's always fully present and engaged. He doesn't take notes and listens attentively at all times. He's also got an excellent, sardonic sense of humour and often cracks me up. He's totally accepting and non-judgemental and I can feel myself internalising him in many ways. He's kept appointments during raging snow storms and also when he's clearly been under the weather. His commitment to doing therapy correctly is beyond question.

As far as working with feelings, that's really what he's all about, but at the same time, he's not especially emotional himself. I mean, he spends a lot of time pulling the feelings out of me, pointing out how I avoid feelings, and patiently bringing me back around to the feelings (and other things I tend to gloss over), but he doesn't jump and down with emotion when he does it. He's very calm and even tempered. He's not blank, he's just very calm. In fact, I've never met any one so respectful of feelings and their importance, and I think that accounts for his seriousness.

At the same time, he has a professional distance that I often complain about. But ironically, like you, I don't want the guy to hug me or tell me to "hang in there" when I feel like I'm gonna die. I also complain that he lacks warmth, but warmth is what completely freaks me out and it throws up the wall. So it's kind of a big, conflicted mess. I honestly don't know how one makes a therapeutically effective connection while maintaining a professional relationship. There has got to be a place in between "professional relationship" and "safe, warm place" where I can start to truly unload my crap and start to get friggin' better!

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
I hear you trying to make connections between how you feel about your T and how you feel about your father - sure while it’s useful to think about connections and try and make sense of it all, at the end of the day once you go with the feelings the connections seem to arise all by themselves, intuitively. I’m speaking about me there, because I’ve made all the intellectual connections I need to with the past, but nothing has changed. It’s only IN an emotional moment that things seem to slot into place.

I think I'm in a similar place. I've gotten a lot of information about my parents that sits in the intellectual bin. I know now that I was pretty fully rejected by a father who had no interest in having a family or even getting married. In fact, my mother told me that she believes that my father married her and had a family simply because his older brother got married and had a family because my dad was obsessed with getting his brother's approval. How f-ed is that? When I asked my mother why they got married, she actually said, "well, dad's brother married an Italian girl, and I think that's why dad married me." WTF?? And when I asked her why she put up with his coldness and distance and lack of affection and being an asshole, etc, she said, "to keep the family together. I didn't want to rock the boat." She didn't mention that she was also intimidated by him and feared that he would leave again (he left my mom for 4 years before I was born).

Yet, like you, all the data from the past doesn't actually do anything other than give me a more accurate picture of the people I came from (which is important, too, of course).

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
You know I’m wondering whether you wouldn’t get that full connection you are missing with your T if you let yourself respond to him as if he were your father (assuming you sense similar feelings that is, like anger, hatred, frustration etc). It certainly sounds as if he’s open to hearing how you feel about him.

Oh believe me, I treat - and respond to - my T very much as if he were my dad. There is ALL SORTS of projection/displacement going on, and he's totally cool with it. He welcomes it, because he knows damn well what's going on. And even when I'm furious with my T and he doesn't do anything that my dad would do in that situation, I still can't seem to see that my feelings are being honored, validated and respected. If I were able to do this, I think I'd be making more progress.

What it comes down to I think is this: that wounded, enraged kid inside me is still refusing to come out in therapy, and it's still in this raging battle with my adult self to be heard, and I think this is what accounts for a lot of my symptoms.

I hope this isn't too rambling and make some sense.

Russ

Hi Russ,

Thank you so much for the detailed explanations and descriptions of your sessions with your T in this thread...you have brought him "to life" to me, and I feel like I'm there with you. The feeling I'm getting about your T and your relationship with him is a very good and positive and strong one. It sounds like he is paying very close attention to you, genuinely cares about you, and wants what is best for you. And I love how you are coming to see the bind you are putting him in (not intentionally putting him in that bind, of course, it sounds like the same bind you were in as a child) by asking for connection on the one hand, and being so ready to push him away at the slightest hint of warmth at the same time (seeing his invitations for closeness and how you've "ignored" them). You have a very deep understanding of yourself...your T seems to know this, and has a deep understanding of you as well, and seems to be very careful when he points things out to you...I can practically feel his tension as he balances on that tightrope.

I agree with what Monte said about there being nothing wrong or weird to seek a meaningful emotional connection with a man...but of course I have a sense of the cultural bias you are up against and I'm sorry for it. You suffered deep pain from your dad when you were meant to have a profound connection with him, you didn't get what you needed and so you are still looking for it, while being afraid of suffering the same terrible pain yet again...the pain of letting down that wall expecting to be understood and heard and then to not have it happen again would be unbearable, like death...Russ that just makes perfect sense and explains so well the tension in your therapy.

Other things you say about your T make him sound like a T dream come true (to me anyway) - always fully present and engaged, doesn't take notes but listens attentively, excellent sardonic humor that makes you laugh, totally accepting and non-judgemental, committed enough to come in during bad weather and feeling under the weather, all about your feelings but rarely indulges in his own feelings on your time, calm and even tempered but not blank, not flat-lining, still present...respectful of feelings and their importance, is totally cool with your projected/displaced anger with your dad, doesn't take it personally because he knows what it's really about...and you must have a profound attachment to him if you are internalising him as you described...actually you know what...he sounds like a dad dream come true, too. (In fact it is provoking a very visceral reaction in me, my heart is just pounding reading what you are saying about your T...I have a terrible longing for a father, lots of unmet needs there.)

I'm sorry for the crap dad you got, Russ. I'm sorry for how he hurt you and let you down, and I'm sorry that his hurting your mother and siblings hurt you too. That kid inside of you is wounded and enraged for really good reasons...and under that, maybe, really flipping terrified of being disappointed and hurt again.

Everything you describe up to this point seems as if it's leading up to the edge of something big...like now it is up to you to jump that last bit to go on to the next part. When you notice yourself ignoring his invitations for closeness, is there any part of you that is feeling afraid?

From what I am reading in your descriptions, this man who is your T really does genuinely care for you, you see that, you just saw it again today when tears welled up at your letter...for him to allow that, and to allow you to see that, is very interesting. He does not sound manipulative at all, and doesn't sound like the kind of person who expects you to take responsibility for his feelings. And he also doesn't sound like the kind of person who would "fake" the tears just because you said you wanted to know he understood and felt your despair. The only other possibility I can think of is that maybe he felt that you were ready to handle knowing that he really does feel this way? It sounds like this man may very well love you as a son, despite the professional distance he must maintain. It is true that he can't replace the father you didn't have...but that doesn't mean what he's offering is less than real, just that it will always be less than what you should have gotten from your dad. I am guessing that it is already more than you ever got from your dad, and by maintaining the necessary professional distance, he is giving you the opportunity to heal those injuries - injuries from what sounds like a selfish, heartless bastard he'll never even meet - and quite possibly denying his own desires to enter into a father-son like relationship with you, which may bring him pleasure but would ruin your chances for real healing. I know I'm jumping to some conclusions here, but if they're true, then your T is profoundly safe.

Is it possible that, if you let down that guard and accept what your T can give you as real, that it will also bring you face-to-face with what he can't give you, and what your dad didn't give you? The danger you still feel, that wall...is it really protecting you from having to feel the bulk of that unspeakable rage toward your father? Is there part of you that believes your T not being able to give what your dad didn't give you is actually the same thing?

As for how to get it "through your head" that your T isn't your father...I don't think there is any way to do that BEFORE you move closer, not with attachment injuries. I think you take tiny steps forward despite the screaming going on in your amygdala. Then when that proximity becomes relatively "comfortable" and you realize you are safe, you take the next tiny step and hold until you realize you are safe yet again.

Something else I was wondering...does anything come to mind when he asks what it would take for you to feel connected to him? Any images, thoughts, anything, no matter how inexplicable? Do you ever remember wishing your dad were different than he was, what it was you wished for, and why? Did you feel safe or connected to anyone else's dad, even if just for a day, or a moment, and if so, what was it that triggered that feeling? Sorry, your T has probably asked you all this already or you've gone over it...but your posts have really moved me, really stirred me up. And these are thoughts I've had related to my own dad hurts, disappointments, and longings. They are not all linear and logical but they do make a kind of sense...like a puzzle that only has a few of the pieces so far.

I hope I haven't said anything to offend, if I have then I hope you will forgive me as that was not my intention. I hope you have a really good session with your T before the break. Please keep us updated as to how it goes, I will be thinking of you.

SG

SG!!

Thanks so much for your wonderful response. Wow, what a post! I'll try to respond to your questions as best I can, but I'd like to thank you for such a beautiful message.

WARNING: Extremely long post...

quote:

And he also doesn't sound like the kind of person who would "fake" the tears just because you said you wanted to know he understood and felt your despair. The only other possibility I can think of is that maybe he felt that you were ready to handle knowing that he really does feel this way?

I think he was just genuinely moved...more moved of course than I was by him being moved. I just avoided the feelings as usual, which sucks. He knows better than anyone that seeing such a thing would freak me out, so I know it was just a spontaneous thing.

quote:

you didn't get what you needed and so you are still looking for it, while being afraid of suffering the same terrible pain yet again...the pain of letting down that wall expecting to be understood and heard and then to not have it happen again would be unbearable, like death

Based on the anxiety I’ve lived with for over two years now, “death” is not an exaggeration. Some part of me feels like it might die if I do that. And "tension" is the perfect word for what's happening in my therapy, in my most meaningful relationships, and inside my own head.

quote:

Other things you say about your T make him sound like a T dream come true

Well, like all of us, he's far from perfect. In fact, last night I enumerated all the things that piss me off about him, which included:

- him not shaking my hand when we first met.
- him sometimes looking away when we talk (although he hasn't done this in a long time, just in the beginning)
- his phone occasionally ringing during sessions when he forgets to turn it off (takes me totally out of the moment)
- and sometimes I can see his eyes getting tired and he looks like he might nod off, or I see him stifle a yawn. This REALLY makes me feel rejected and like I don’t matter.

After I listed all these things, he said, "well, what about all those things?" repeating the list I’d just read.

I said, "well, how about explaining yourself? Like what's the deal with the phone, and you looking like you're about to fall asleep sometimes? I’d be happy to run downstairs and get you a coffee. I come here and I’m alert, the least you could do to be alert, as well."

He said, "would my apologizing or having an explanation for any of these things satisfy you?"

I said, "not one bit."

He said, "Right. Then what's important is how they make you feel."

quote:

When you notice yourself ignoring his invitations for closeness, is there any part of you that is feeling afraid?

It's more that it feels incredibly awkward, uncomfortable and un-natural to me, and I see myself completely turning off at these times. This could all be a way of me avoiding feeling scared. I do consciously feel my intense fear of rejection from him, and I mentioned this last night in a number of ways.

But here's the thing...I KNOW there's a part of me that wants that connection, and it's fighting with my broken, adult ego, and that conflict is causing the symptoms.

quote:

From what I am reading in your descriptions, this man who is your T really does genuinely care for you, you see that, you just saw it again today when tears welled up at your letter...for him to allow that, and to allow you to see that, is very interesting. He does not sound manipulative at all, and doesn't sound like the kind of person who expects you to take responsibility for his feelings. And he also doesn't sound like the kind of person who would "fake" the tears just because you said you wanted to know he understood and felt your despair. The only other possibility I can think of is that maybe he felt that you were ready to handle knowing that he really does feel this way? It sounds like this man may very well love you as a son, despite the professional distance he must maintain. It is true that he can't replace the father you didn't have...but that doesn't mean what he's offering is less than real, just that it will always be less than what you should have gotten from your dad. I am guessing that it is already more than you ever got from your dad, and by maintaining the necessary professional distance, he is giving you the opportunity to heal those injuries - injuries from what sounds like a selfish, heartless bastard he'll never even meet - and quite possibly denying his own desires to enter into a father-son like relationship with you, which may bring him pleasure but would ruin your chances for real healing. I know I'm jumping to some conclusions here, but if they're true, then your T is profoundly safe.

I think everything you say here is right on the money. The guy is totally genuine, even in his faults. He wouldn't fake anything. There's not a shred of BS in this man that I can see.

In fact, he summed up the whole thing up perfectly last night, which was, "regardless of whether I put my arm around you metaphorically or physically, the point is that there's something extremely dangerous to you there, so we have to find what exactly that is. And we don't yet know what's primary, whether it's really a matter of trust, or if being angry with me about various things - and citing trust as the problem - actually allows you to avoid voicing more tender needs, like ‘I need you, take care of me.’ It could be both, but one is probably primary."

And of course, the problem is once again illustrated in my response to hearing this...not, "finally, a safe place for me to express my tender needs and wants! What a relief!. No, it's the broken, American male adult going, "whoa, pal, that's not me. TMI! Take a step back, dude!"

And there's the problem.

quote:

Is it possible that, if you let down that guard and accept what your T can give you as real, that it will also bring you face-to-face with what he can't give you, and what your dad didn't give you?

It's possible for sure. In fact, I wrote that in my letter, saying, "even if I let my guard down, there's only so much you can offer, and wasn't that the problem to begin with? Me looking for connection but being denied? It feels like a potentially damaging situation to me."

quote:

The danger you still feel, that wall...is it really protecting you from having to feel the bulk of that unspeakable rage toward your father?

Thankfully , I have very little problem feeling the unspeakable rage I have toward my father, although I've never really expressed my anger directory toward my father, and I could see that as being a problem. But, all I have to do is think about this: now that my dad is pushing 80 and is feeling guilty for being a shitty father, and how now he's trying to be my buddy to make up for it with all his awkward attempts at connecting...well, that's all I need to do to start really really cursing the man. I mean like anger I can almost taste.

quote:

Is there part of you that believes your T not being able to give what your dad didn't give you is actually the same thing?

Entirely possible. Seeing how I project, this wouldn't surprise me one bit.

quote:

As for how to get it "through your head" that your T isn't your father...I don't think there is any way to do that BEFORE you move closer, not with attachment injuries. I think you take tiny steps forward despite the screaming going on in your amygdala. Then when that proximity becomes relatively "comfortable" and you realize you are safe, you take the next tiny step and hold until you realize you are safe yet again.

See, I was really hoping I could do this, like, this week. Seriously, I am an extremely impatient person, and I want to make progress and feel better RIGHT NOW!!!

quote:

Something else I was wondering...does anything come to mind when he asks what it would take for you to feel connected to him? Any images, thoughts, anything, no matter how inexplicable? Do you ever remember wishing your dad were different than he was, what it was you wished for, and why? Did you feel safe or connected to anyone else's dad, even if just for a day, or a moment, and if so, what was it that triggered that feeling?

My first response when he asked me that question - and I know this sounds odd - was this: "Now he's getting desperate to help me. He's saying, "well, we've tried everything else...so just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it...anything to make you feel better."

In high school, I remember wishing my father was dead. That's how much I hated the bastard. I did feel a connection with various other men in my life, tho, namely some of my camp counselors, who were awesome. But at the end of the day, I had to go home to my prick father.

I should clarify, tho, that my father is a complicated guy. While he was a TOTAL failure as a father, he's also extremely generous and none of us have ever wanted for anything. If any of us got into trouble (and we ALL did), he was always there to help. But, he was totally emotionally cold and distant, and always sneeringly dismissive of anything he didn't agree with, and THAT is really, really damaging. Is it any surprise that three of his four children have been or in therapy? Uh, no.

Again, it all seems to come down to this conditioned response I have, which is to reject any "threat" of closeness and retreat to being alone. This strategy worked for most of my adult life, until this OTHER part of me, this barely felt part, started refusing to accept that. And so the conflict is between these two forces...the one that wants to move forward and connect, and the one that wants to retreat, and the conflict is manifested as symptoms.

EDIT: I know I've linked to this guys psychotherapy blog before. This post on positive and negative transference is EXACTLY how I feel, except that my positive feelings for my T aren't "hopelessly idealised." But his feeling of not trusting his feelings is precisely how I feel.

quote:

The world of the negative transference is dark shadowy and private. I do not want him to see it, and again what is more important is that I do not want to see it myself. I had never seen it until this afternoon. In this negative world I am suspicious and hostile. I don't want to have anything to do with this unknown man so I throw all kinds of decoys in his path while inwardly keeping myself to myself...

...Looking at these two worlds I see that I am insecure in both. I do not trust my judgement in the world of the positive transference because I suspect I am only thinking what I am obliged to think. And I do not trust my judgement in the world of the negative transference because I suspect that my perceptions are distorted and erroneous. I am insecure in both worlds with the result that I never know what I really think or feel and never trust anything, least of all myself...

...Seeing how these feelings operate in the transference means I can see how they operate my life as a whole. I have these feelings about everyone I know and everything I do. They are in-built. They are my way of relating to the world...

...Looking at the worlds of my positive and negative transference and my feeling of not trusting either I can see that neither of them deserves to be trusted. The positive transference has a hopelessly idealised quality, and the negative transference has a self-defeatingly suspicious quality. What is needed is for the boundary between them to dissolve so that I can feel one whole me instead of two separate mes, relate to one Dr. Thomas instead of two separate Dr. Thomas's, and live in one whole world instead of two separate worlds.

SG, thanks again for thinking about me and my situation. It's incredibly helpful and encouraging to hear your words, and everyone's words, at this place.

Best,
Russ

i just want to pipe in, and say, this is incredibly interesting and helpful to read this series of posts. i appreciate all the work y'all put into this, and just want you to know how much it helps those reading. real depth. and russ, i feel your tension, the anxiety i live with everyday is so incapsulated into what you are feeling. so huge, is this transference theory, in explaining our past. the rage, the unfeeling with no explanation, the fear, the vulnerability.

what i think is so key is understanding that they CAN'T erase the past and heal it by erasing it. it is there, and i know my T can't be the mommy i never had....getting over this fact is a huge step, and i have not even begun to attach, i am too afraid. but also, so desparate TO attach. i think just as y'all wrote, the knowing that they can't erase the past, but can help to heal it is so key.

and maybe, will ease the unrealistic expectations i have of them. i remember wishing to T1 that he had a magic wand. all to a blank face, JUST LIKE MY PARENTS!! blank faces really kill us, me, anyway. T's do have boundaries, but we are paying them DANG GOOD MONEY to know how to work that boundary and transference to OUR long term advantage, not theirs...take THAT T1!!!

anyway, not to chime in too much about ME, but just to let you know how much this all is helping me to eavesdrop upon!!

xxoo, jill

Hey, Russ...I just wanted to pop in and say that the last quote you posted there really resonated and thank you for putting it...it helps a lot to see this from another perspective, and this guy is pretty good at describing it, isn't he?

I was wondering when your two-week break starts? Sorry I forgor, but has it started already? Hope you will continue to draw some support here during the break. BTW, the more I read of your posts the more I love your T (ALMOST as much as I love mine!)

Hope you are having a good day today, Russ.

BB

hi BB,

Yep, my two week break starts today. My next appt. is on July 7.

Yes, that guy's blog really resonates with me, I think party because we share so many of the same problems. In thinking about this whole issue of transference, we also share very a similar issue, namely, as my T called it last week, "a problem of love."

I know this might sound strange, but there is a barrier inside me, that feels like a terrible fear, that prevents me from being able to fully feel loved and to love back. I can actually feel it, and it feels awful. I can theorize and intellectualize about it all day, but the bottom line is that I'm scared to death of feeling loved and truly loving someone back. In fact, the offer of real love and the invitation to give it back is what triggered my problems two years ago.

So during this two week break, I'm going to think about what makes up this fear, because my fear of love - my fear of connection - is totally holding me back. My T put it perfectly last night during this exchange:

T: I wonder if it's an issue of letting yourself feel.

Me: *Irritated* No shit. I've been saying that for two years, but how the hell do I do that?

T: *Nods, annoying the hell out of me.*

T: What is it that you want from me that you didn't get from your father?

Me: I want warmth and encouragement, like I've said 200 f-ing times to you, but you just sit there and don't do anything.

T: Right, and it makes you angry because you feel that I don't reciprocate. You hate my professional demeanor.

Me: Right.

T: It's like you're saying to me, "hey, it's great that you're accepting and non-judgmental and on time and all that, but that ain't cuttin' it for me. I need something more."

Me: Yes, I've been saying that for 2 f-ing years.

T: You may have felt it, but you haven't said those words to me.

T: What do you want in this relationship?

Me: I want to do whatever it takes to get out of this nightmare.

T: Right. And that puts you right back into that little circle where you go nowhere.


- Russ

Russ,
I just love your T and you must want to bludgeon him to death regularly. It's damn frustrating when they won't fight with you isn't it? My T told me over and over that it would be easier if he fought back because then I could make it about him and his behavior and being angry with him instead of being left alone with my own feelings. It's that combination of their not budging one iota, yet at the same time refusing to resist you or argue with you. It was like boxing with fog.

But I think he's doing the right thing. I think you've found the cliff edge.

quote:

I know this might sound strange, but there is a barrier inside me, that feels like a terrible fear, that prevents me from being able to fully feel loved and to love back. I can actually feel it, and it feels awful. I can theorize and intellectualize about it all day, but the bottom line is that I'm scared to death of feeling loved and truly loving someone back.

You don't need to think about it anymore, you understand what's going on. Your fear is holding you back. But the problem is that we can't work our way through to not being afraid and then do something. It's in doing what we fear that we learn not to fear it. That's why I said you're at the cliff edge. You're looking over a long dangerous fall and your T is beckoning to you and saying "jump, I'll catch you." In the end, it's a leap of faith. A terrifying, breath stealing leap of faith.

You have to keep moving closer, and opening up more DESPITE your fear, so that you can experience not being let down enough times that the primitive, atavistic part of your brain does it enough times to create pathways that do NOT indicate you're in danger when you do it. It's really hard because you have to keep walking into the center of your fear. My T always points to this as the reason attachment injuries are so hellish to recover from. We must do the very thing we fear the most to get better. This isn't about you thinking it through or figuring it out or being able to explain it from every possible angle. This is about doing something that scares the $%^$ out of you until it doesn't anymore.

But here's the upside. You have your T this time, so although it will still FEEL exceedingly dangerous to do, he is committed to being there for you as you take the risk to move closer. That's how you'll heal.

And I know that all of this is SO much easier to talk about than to do.

AG

AG!

Awesome to hear from you! Thanks for the wonderful (as usual) feedback. So, I thought I'd respond to your thoughts using my "resistance" self. Let me know what you think. This may be totally annoying, so feel free to tell me if it is .

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
You don't need to think about it anymore, you understand what's going on. Your fear is holding you back.

But I feel that my fear is the thing that's preventing me from actually feeling the feelings, if that makes any sense. It's not a situation where I'm secretly experiencing conscious, intense longings and love and deep affection for him but I'm terrified to tell him. I kind of wish that were the case, then I'd actually have the feelings to present to him. The problem is that I can't actually feel much other than what I described to him as "a kind of strange, under-developed affection and fondness." But I really do have an affection and fondness for him, but that's kind of it. And yet, I told him that I know that if he got hit by a bus tomorrow, it would destroy me, so I am aware of a kind of connection. Basically, I feel like I'm not feeling enough feelings and they're not strong enough. Am I nuts?

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
But the problem is that we can't work our way through to not being afraid and then do something. It's in doing what we fear that we learn not to fear it. That's why I said you're at the cliff edge. You're looking over a long dangerous fall and your T is beckoning to you and saying "jump, I'll catch you." In the end, it's a leap of faith. A terrifying, breath stealing leap of faith.

That's so true, but again I keep coming back to this idea that I just don't have enough to jump over the cliff with. And I totally don't mean to sound like a wise-ass, but it's kind of like someone saying to me, "come on, I'm totally here for you, come join me" and me being like, "meh, I think you're nice and all, but I'm just not that into you that way so I think I'll pass." So I end up feeling like there's something wrong with me that I don't feel stronger about him.

He did make a point about this, tho. He said that my complaints about him, my annoyance and anger - while all completely valid - may be a way for me to NOT feel more tender feelings below it, so maybe that's what's happening. It's pretty easy for me to feel anger, that's for sure. Things like longing and "I need you," very hard.

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
You have to keep moving closer, and opening up more DESPITE your fear, so that you can experience not being let down enough times that the primitive, atavistic part of your brain does it enough times to create pathways that do NOT indicate you're in danger when you do it. It's really hard because you have to keep walking into the center of your fear. My T always points to this as the reason attachment injuries are so hellish to recover from. We must do the very thing we fear the most to get better. This isn't about you thinking it through or figuring it out or being able to explain it from every possible angle. This is about doing something that scares the $%^$ out of you until it doesn't anymore.

You're right. I'm thinking about it WAY too much, instead of trying to locate the feelings. I mean, I have this blinding anger toward my father, and there is NO question that those feelings are in play in numerous ways with my T. And the fact that I have NO problem accessing that anger at my father makes me wonder if there are other, much more difficult feelings buried underneath that anger. If that's the case, then I have to actually dig those feelings up and experience them in therapy.

But man, the way my current ego is organized makes it really hard to do this. I feel like I almost have to morph into a different person in order to get to what I need to get to. Because my T is right...when I'm in the throes of a month-long bout of this hellish, spirit-killing head fog, the only thing I'm interested in is NOT feeling this way, which makes it very hard to think of anything else, or to connect up the symptoms with anything. It's kind of like asking a person who's on fire to think about long term investments. And yet, I know that the way my emotional mind and life is currently set up is the root of those symptoms, so I guess it all just comes back to doing the work in spite of feeling dreadful. It's a cruel irony.

Thanks so much, AG.

Update: Last night had a disturbing dream that I was on a bridge high over a body of water. It was like a massive gorge.

There's a man on the bridge saying he's waiting to meet someone and they're both going to jump off the bridge...not to do themselves in, but as in some kind of extreme sport type thing...BASE jumping or whatever. I tentatively shuffle over to the railing and peer over the side. I feel almost sick with vertigo. It looks like it's a mile down to the water, and I can see tiny little boats and stuff. I say to the guy, "there's no f-ing WAY I'd ever do that. NO WAY!!!!"

At this point the bridge starts to move a little bit and I'm so scared that I get down on my hands and knees and crawl off it back to safety.

Hmmmmmm....

Russ

Hi Russ,
Interesting dream. I definitely want to respond more to what you said (loved the resistant self btw!) but haven't had time due to my pesky family wanting to spend time together , but I'll be back sometime this weekend. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you or upset. I'll talk to you soon.

AG

quote:

But I feel that my fear is the thing that's preventing me from actually feeling the feelings, if that makes any sense. It's not a situation where I'm secretly experiencing conscious, intense longings and love and deep affection for him but I'm terrified to tell him. I kind of wish that were the case, then I'd actually have the feelings to present to him. The problem is that I can't actually feel much other than what I described to him as "a kind of strange, under-developed affection and fondness." But I really do have an affection and fondness for him, but that's kind of it. And yet, I told him that I know that if he got hit by a bus tomorrow, it would destroy me, so I am aware of a kind of connection. Basically, I feel like I'm not feeling enough feelings and they're not strong enough. Am I nuts?
...

That's so true, but again I keep coming back to this idea that I just don't have enough to jump over the cliff with. And I totally don't mean to sound like a wise-ass, but it's kind of like someone saying to me, "come on, I'm totally here for you, come join me" and me being like, "meh, I think you're nice and all, but I'm just not that into you that way so I think I'll pass." So I end up feeling like there's something wrong with me that I don't feel stronger about him.

Russ, just wanted to say THANKS for articulating this. It's exactly the sensation I've had with my newly-ex-T. Like.... somewhere deep down there I know I'm sort-of attached - I can feel the echoes or something, but it's not the latch-on intense kind of attachment I know I feel in certain other situations (sounds like you had that more intense feeling with your ex-GF, maybe?).

Anyway, if you're nuts, that's two of us. I wonder sometimes if this is a 'dismissive' attachment style.

Count me in as number three for having lost their marbles, then. I imagine this distant (maybe dismissive...I haven't read up much on that, though) type of attachment as this hand in my chest, reaching for an elusive rope that keeps swaying just out of grabbing distance. Know what I mean?

Jones and kashley,

Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone here in feeling this way. And yes, I do believe it's possible that I feel stronger about him but that I'm not feeling it, and in that way, dismissing it. I mean, dismissing my feelings without even knowing I'm doing it is part of my problem. A big part.

I just thought of an example. Whenever I go for a session with my T and I sit down and I see him reach for his appointment book, I have this sense of dread because I know he's about to tell me he's going to not be here for such-and-such a date. It's a little feeling of dread, but I think there's a much larger feeling under it that I am indeed dismissing. What do I do instead of feeling those feelings? Well, he tells me when he'll be away, and I make a note of it, say 'OK' and get on with my session like a 'normal, well-adjusted adult who can handle missing a session or two with his T.'

I think it's possible that I'm profoundly hurt and angry, and that squashing those feelings is making me ill. My response to squashing these feelings in deference to 'acting like an adult' seems pretty dismissive to me.

Thanks for this idea, and thanks for your feedback!

Russ

Hey Kash - I just revised dismissive attachment via wikipedia and nah, that's not me. but it still does feel like an avoidant move sometimes - maybe (if I really *need* a psychological classification from wikipedia) fearful-avoidant. I do it a lot with my partner, as well as my T. whereas people who are safely regulated by distance - I can *feel* more intensely attached.

Russ, I dunno. Sorry to pick up the resistant self, but most of the time I can only really countenance the idea that I'm 'profoundly hurt and angry' at an intellectual level (my T presented me with this possibility now and then). At which level I say - sure, it MIGHT be true - but then, is a feeling really a feeling if you don't feel it?

My T said last session that I could have been a lawyer. Maybe she was referring to this.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
...most of the time I can only really countenance the idea that I'm 'profoundly hurt and angry' at an intellectual level (my T presented me with this possibility now and then).

Jones, I totally hear that. However, I actually can feel anger no problem. I mean like real ugly rage, and I count that as a good thing. Hurt is a different story. I can feel it a bit, but it's much more elusive than anger. And I'm beginning to become suspicious that the anger really is a way to cover up the hurt, in addition to being a legitimate feeling on its own.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
At which level I say - sure, it MIGHT be true - but then, is a feeling really a feeling if you don't feel it?

Oh man, I say this all the time. "Do you want me to pretend to feel this or that?" Yeah, been there. At the same time, not feeling stuff doesn't mean it's not there. I mean, I can look at a photo of myself as a kid and start crying because now I'm starting to feel how lonely and rejected I felt back then. I couldn't feel that not too long ago. Two years ago I would've said, "pft, my childhood was fine. Gimme a break already with that crap."

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
My T said last session that I could have been a lawyer. Maybe she was referring to this.

Right, because she's probably saying that your defences are really strong and well-reasoned. The intellect is a great way of avoiding difficult feelings, and that gets us back to the whole, "but I don't FEEL that way!" thing. Then T might say, "right, because you're not allowing yourself to."

It becomes a rather irritating chicken-and-egg thing.

Russ

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
Hi Russ,
Interesting dream. I definitely want to respond more to what you said (loved the resistant self btw!) but haven't had time due to my pesky family wanting to spend time together , but I'll be back sometime this weekend. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring you or upset. I'll talk to you soon.

AG

Thanks, AG. As always, I look forward to your insightful comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ:

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
...most of the time I can only really countenance the idea that I'm 'profoundly hurt and angry' at an intellectual level (my T presented me with this possibility now and then).

Jones, I totally hear that. However, I actually can feel anger no problem. I mean like real ugly rage, and I count that as a good thing. Hurt is a different story. I can feel it a bit, but it's much more elusive than anger. And I'm beginning to become suspicious that the anger really is a way to cover up the hurt, in addition to being a legitimate feeling on its own.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
At which level I say - sure, it MIGHT be true - but then, is a feeling really a feeling if you don't feel it?

Oh man, I say this all the time. "Do you want me to pretend to feel this or that?" Yeah, been there. At the same time, not feeling stuff doesn't mean it's not there. I mean, I can look at a photo of myself as a kid and start crying because now I'm starting to feel how lonely and rejected I felt back then. I couldn't feel that not too long ago. Two years ago I would've said, "pft, my childhood was fine. Gimme a break already with that crap."

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
My T said last session that I could have been a lawyer. Maybe she was referring to this.

Right, because she's probably saying that your defences are really strong and well-reasoned. The intellect is a great way of avoiding difficult feelings, and that gets us back to the whole, "but I don't FEEL that way!" thing. Then T might say, "right, because you're not allowing yourself to."

It becomes a rather irritating chicken-and-egg thing.

Then again, this quote from famous psychotherapist John Bowlby makes sense, too.

quote:

If your experience has been that you are not allowed to be distressed and cry and seek comfort, then you won't be doing those things, and you'll get to a point where you claim that you don't have those feelings.

I never felt like it was OK to be distressed and cry and seek comfort because it was always met with dismissal from dad, and I-don't-know-what-you'd-call-it from mom.

Russ

quote:

I just thought of an example. Whenever I go for a session with my T and I sit down and I see him reach for his appointment book, I have this sense of dread because I know he's about to tell me he's going to not be here for such-and-such a date. It's a little feeling of dread, but I think there's a much larger feeling under it that I am indeed dismissing. What do I do instead of feeling those feelings? Well, he tells me when he'll be away, and I make a note of it, say 'OK' and get on with my session like a 'normal, well-adjusted adult who can handle missing a session or two with his T.'

Russ I can so relate to the above, been seeing my T for nearly 4 years and i do the same as you. However, her last holiday i brought up how i hate her going on holiday. We discuss it for most of the session, how i felt abandoned, dismiss and forgotten, turned out to be one of the best sessions i've had. Got to admit it was really difficult to say and i felt like i had to force myself to say it but it was worth it in the end.

Hev

quote:

Originally posted by Heather63:
We discuss it for most of the session, how i felt abandoned, dismiss and forgotten, turned out to be one of the best sessions i've had. Got to admit it was really difficult to say and i felt like i had to force myself to say it but it was worth it in the end.
Hev

Hi Hev,

I have actually done this, too. The time he forgot to tell me about his vacation on the Friday before it started. It destroyed me, and I told him I felt like he didn't care. What was odd was while I totally felt that way and said it, it was SO hard to get it out of me, and I guess it felt somehow shameful to have to admit that I felt that way. He told me that he in fact did care, but there was nothing at that moment he could have said that I would've believed. I was so angry and hurt, I was inconsolable, but I could only get about 5% of that out in front of him.

Russ

Yes I know what you mean, my T has to drag my thoughts out of me lol For me it just feels so wrong to feel what i feel, so yes maybe its shame im feeling

Hev

quote:

You're right. I'm thinking about it WAY too much, instead of trying to locate the feelings.

Hi Russ,
I'm back for another round.

I think you're circling around what you need to do. And I think you're not doing it because you're scared @#(*less. For very good reason. When no one is there emotionally for you as a child the damage is two fold. The lack of connection is damaging in and of itself but you're also not taught how to handle the pain that is the result of the lack of connection. You have no resources to cope because the very people who should be helping you deal with the damage are the people causing the damage. By definition it's too much for you to handle on your own, so it got put away in what I fondly like to call God's tupperware. Stored until you get strong enough and have the resources to face it. The trouble is when you open the tupperward, it's all nice and fresh and industrial strength, not to mention unprocessed, just the way you put it away. And the very reasonable, and probably realistic, feeling that feeling it will destroy you, also comes back full strength.

When I went to therapy with my present T, if you had asked I would have told you I had no problem feeling my feelings. If anything I would have told you I felt them TOO much, that I was a very emotional person. It was a total shock for me when I realized just how very adeptly I actually avoided them. Which is why occasionally they would burst forth because I couldn't contain them anymore. And one of the ways that I avoided them was by fleeing as far over into my left brain as I could. I leaned very heavily on my intellect to cope and avoid my feelings. One of the surprises in my healing was realizing that I'm actually a right brain dominant person. I fled so hard, I ended up with an engineering degree. I told that to my T and he agreed but also told me it's that it helped save me. So I don't want to disparage it as a coping technique. But having a keen intellect, which you do, is a two edged sword. On one hand, you're ability to understand what is going on and make connections can be a help towards healing. On the other hand, healing has very little to do with understanding, so you can thwart you're own healing by not going where you need to in order to heal.

The healing takes place in a right brain to right brain connection with your T, limbic system to limbic system, emotion to emotion. Which means in order to heal, you HAVE to feel. And you have to feel in the presence of another person. Which all of your experience tells you is a risky, dangerous, terrifying thing to do and will ONLY GET YOU HURT. That's the bind I was talking about. (On some level, you recognize this, it's what your dream was about I think. You know what your T is asking you to do, to bungee jump off this incredibly high dangerous spot. And you think "it's too scary" and crawl away.)

So here's the thing. It's quite simple, but probably one of the hardest things you'll ever have to do. When you start to feel something, like the dread you talked about when your T takes out his book, don't push it away. You have to hold still and try to let come as close as you can and then you have to say it to your T. The more you do this and nothing bad happens (which it won't with your T) it will be one iota easier to do next time. It's a long difficult struggle because you have to overcome a huge amount of fear and the sense of shame for even HAVING the feelings. (Shame is an incredibly strong emotion because we are social creatures who need others to survive and conforming to group norms is so important. So when we identify something as dangerous, we will attach shame to it as a strong motivator to stay away from it. You show me an emotionally deprived child and I'll show you someone horridly ashamed of both their needs and emotions. I still struggle with a lot of shame over my feelings, that now gets in my way a lot more than the actual feelings do.)

You have to stay and you have feel in order to heal. But you need someone to help you handle the feelings. That's why your T is so important. Another human being who is attuned to you actually interacts with your nervous system and helps you regulate your emotions and when you experience this enough, over time, you implicitly learn how to do it yourself.

If you haven't read it, I HIGHLY recommend A General Theory of Love. It explains how important attachment is to human development and just what it is we need to heal. The book provided me with a breakthrough in understanding what I needed to do to heal. John Bowlby, whom you quoted, was actually the founder of attachment theory. I would also recommend David Wallin's Attachment in Psychotherapy. It can be heavy going but there's a lot of good stuff in there about the necessity of feeling in healing and what we need to change.

AG

AG!!

Thanks so much for getting back to me on this, and for taking the time to offer your insight (and staying up late to do it! :] ). I really need this right now since my T is away and I’m going through a very nasty stretch of the wretched-head-fog-of-awfulness-that-makes-life-miserable. So I am profoundly grateful.

WARNING: I go off a bit here on some real anger, with profanity.

Every word of your post resonates with me, and it’s the kind of encouragement I need to hear. I had a dream last night that I was driving past my father’s old workplace. He owned a uniform rental company and his office was attached to the plant. I can’t begin to tell you much I despised that hideous shithole. It was the most soul-less, depressing place on earth...grim, industrial, straight out of the 50s in a really shitty part of town. My hatred for that place is right on par with my hatred of my father, and of course I worked there from time to time while in school and a few times after college (ugh), and hated every second of it. I had other jobs, but the plant was so convenient and I was paid well, so it was too easy not to work there. In the dream, I drive by it - see my dad standing in the driveway - then I drive away, remembering what an awful place it was (and still is, even tho he sold it three years ago).

Now this morning - like a lot of times recently - I’m really feeling the hatred for my father. I hate that man so much I can taste it. I curse him as I get dressed for work, and as I drive to work, screaming what a heartless, soul-less, disgusting piece of shit he is, and asking him if he has any idea how badly he f-ed up my life because he had no interest in me and no capacity to love, to feel or give warmth or affection, or to give a damn about anything but himself and his precious job. I tell him to take his job, shove it up his ass sideways, up into this throat until he chokes to death on it, and then after he’s dead, well let's just say I’ve got some plans for his grave. None of this feeling is made up or disingenuous. It's as real as it gets.

So yeah, I’m feeling the anger toward him. But I think beneath the anger is unspeakable hurt. And I don’t want to feel that hurt because to admit that I feel hurt would certify my father as someone who I loved and wanted to love me, and I don’t want to do that. He disgusts me and I hate him. The last thing I want to feel is any kind of longing and tenderness for such a loser. It would be admitting some kind of defeat. It would be admitting that he was important to me. It would be shameful to betray my anger by admitting these other feelings.

I remember being in the car with him somewhere around the age of 8 and wanting to do something with him. He tells me he can’t because he has to work, even though it’s the weekend. I remember getting really angry and saying, “all you care about is money!” He said something like, “but Russ, I bought you your baseball glove and…” and he sort of trailed off, not knowing what to say. I think that’s around the time that this all started. And my mother...she just didn’t have it in her to fill in the gaps. She didn't know how to play with me or how to connect on a real, warm, physical level. She just didn’t.

I am also experiencing real anger and hatred of my T. I hate him because he hasn’t “cured” me yet, because he goes away when I need him there to talk to, and a bunch of other things that to me are unforgivable. I see now that he pretty much has to be perfect in order for me to trust him and for me to open up to him. And of course, he’s not perfect, so I keep him at arm’s length.

Most recently - and most troubling to me - is that on two occasions in sessions he was clearly very tired, and it looked to me like he might actually nod off because his eyes were so heavy. I told him in a later session how furious and rejected this makes me feel. I said, “what, am I boring you? You need some coffee? I’ll go get you some. I show up alert and ready to listen to you, the least you can do is be alert, too!” The rest of that, which I have felt since but didn’t say is, “you heartless, g-damn, m-fing, a**7^!...if you EVER nod off on me in a session again I will THROW YOU OUT THAT F-ING WINDOW!!!!”

Again, I can vaguely sense the hurt under this anger, but to feel hurt would be to admit that I have these other very tender feelings, and I have a problem with that. I guess my limbic system is telling his limbic system to go F itself instead of telling it what I feel and I need.

quote:

So here's the thing. It's quite simple, but probably one of the hardest things you'll ever have to do. When you start to feel something, like the dread you talked about when your T takes out his book, don't push it away. You have to hold still and try to let come as close as you can and then you have to say it to your T.

You’re so right. It’s those little emotional twinges that I ignore to my incredible detriment. I am going to be much more vigilant from here on out with those little twinges, because I think that’s where the heart of the matter is, as much as I don’t want to go there because – as you say – it’s shameful to have these feelings.

quote:

You show me an emotionally deprived child and I'll show you someone horridly ashamed of both their needs and emotions.

Hmmm, as an American male, do you think it’s a coincidence that I’m less ashamed of feeling intense anger than I am of feeling things that sound like, "I need you. Don’t go away. What about me?"

I actually have "General Theory of Love" and have been skimming through it and reading people’s comments here about it. I’m having trouble reading at the moment because I just feel so crappy, but I’ll start to do some more reading in it.

Thanks so much again, AG. I can’t tell you how much your insight means to me.

Russ

This is such an interesting thread. I don't really have anything to add, but I just have to mention a couple things that I connected with.

I'm only just now starting to maybe realize just how much I have shoved away my feelings, and I can see how I feel so much shame for feeling the way I do at any given point. Heck, in my last session, I even felt shame for not feeling, because it makes me feel cowardly when I recognize that I've shoved all of that away. And, of course, I feel shame for feeling cowardly about myself, because it seems like having such low self-worth is a social no-no. Or at least, it's a no-no in my parents eyes (even though they have no clue the depth to which I really despise myself), because it's "pessimistic thinking", and that kind of thinking will never get me anywhere.

Russ, I can relate to you when you talk about your father only caring about money. Several months ago, my father got very angry at me when I said that I wasn't happy when he asked me if I was. He argued that he had given me everything I could have ever wanted, but so much of what he gave me isn't even close to what I wanted, it was just the only way he knew how to love me. I know that I am scared to feel the hurt of not having that nurturing, caring father. Both this T and my last T mentioned anger when I first started seeing them, but they haven't brought it up...probably because I'm so out of touch with my feelings that feeling anger is a long way off. But I know for a fact that I'm scared to reach that point. I remember that I had a few moments a couple months ago where I suddenly felt a slight twinge of grief for not having the father that I realized I so desperately wanted, and the feeling scared me so much that I had to distract myself from it.

So I definitely agree that you have a whole huge pool of hurt beneath the anger. To me, it seems like it's the burner keeping that pot of water at a full boil.

Oh, and FOT - this is only the case with me, but I know that the shame that I feel when I realize the money that's being spent on therapy stems from the shame I feel for WANTING to spend that much money on therapy because of the cravings I get for feeling care and understanding from my T.

All,

Thanks to everyone for the kind thoughts, words of wisdom and shared experience.

quote:

Originally posted by kashley:
So I definitely agree that you have a whole huge pool of hurt beneath the anger. To me, it seems like it's the burner keeping that pot of water at a full boil (my bold) .

You know, I may be barking up the wrong tree with this idea - and I know that my T is a little suspicious of this idea - but it just feels like there's gotta be a set of feelings threatening to break out into consciousness, and have been CONSTANTLY trying to break out for over two years now (probably more). This would explain the chronicity of the anxiety and brain fog. I mean, the fear meter right now is just pinned in the red 24/7 pretty much. I took .5mg of Klonopin this morning and it barely even touched it!

I can kind of trace this current stretch of the wretched fog back to that twinge of "Oh no" when my T told me about his upcoming vacation, but I felt ok at the time and thought, "ah, I can handle him going away now." In fact, just before that, I was getting tired of seeing him so often because I felt pretty good and was actually looking forward to a break. I think I may have been fooling myself.

So it gathered steam from there and was supplemented by a couple of other triggers and here I am. If my idea is correct, I just wish whatever feelings are trying to come out would start to leak out. At least then I'd know what the hell has been wrong with me all this time! But I'm guessing that what my T said about this is true, that these feeling don't just bubble up from below by themselves.

Has anyone else experienced a decrease in affective symptoms (anxiety, depression, panic, body pain, etc) after experiencing long buried feelings?

Thanks again, everyone.
Russ

quote:

Originally posted by scaredtoriskmyself:
I have had major anxiety symptoms and other PTSD type symptoms, gone in and processed a memory and the feelings, body pain etc with T and then felt tons better. Sometimes a complete (albeit temporary) relief of the fog, anxiety, panic and body pain.

I have too, actually, but they were never a complete or permanent relief, which is a testament to the power of unfelt feelings.

Hi Russ,

The dream about your dad, and how you woke up feeling angry (angrier) with all that deep anger that rose to the surface...that happens to me too, only it's about my mom. It's really hard to admit my anger with her and sometimes it's only because I've had these dreams that I know it's there. I don't have them very often, but when I have them, I really let her have it - just scream in her face, all that anger just comes pouring out. There are a lot of I hate you's. And I wake up with it on the "surface" and realize it's always been in there...but then within a day it goes back under the surface again and I can't access it anymore.

The only other time it comes out is when she really pushes boundaries with me. It's only happened a few times, the most recent being about a year and a half ago. I stood up for us and said no, very gently, to something she had asked for, and she got snotty with me, so then I got angry (considering the circumstances...she'd been depending on us way too long for way too much in connection with addictions of hers that were largely responsible for the hurt she caused me as a child) and said no even more forcefully, out of that anger...and promptly melted down about sixty seconds later from the huge adrenaline rush from daring to stand up to my mom. It is really awful...there is some serious primal fear associated with me being angry at my mom. But I had "the dream" that night, and in my dreams I never melt down.

Sorry for the digression...I hope you don't mind me sharing a bit about the anger toward my mom. I guess it's on my mind right now because for the last couple of months she seems to be doing better than she's done in years, really doing what she can to take care of herself, and I've let her back "in" to my life...and then today she asked to borrow money again. And that's how the enmeshment always starts...and I felt really disappointed, like I knew it, she was just trying to get on my "good" side again so she could use me again when she needs to.

Anyway I just wanted to thank you for all your posting about the work you are doing with your T on fear, and the anger and hurt toward your father you are processing and/or trying to access. So much of what you say resonates but this jumped out at me especially:

quote:

So yeah, I’m feeling the anger toward him. But I think beneath the anger is unspeakable hurt. And I don’t want to feel that hurt because to admit that I feel hurt would certify my father as someone who I loved and wanted to love me, and I don’t want to do that.

This reminds me of something I said to my former T. My mom kept in touch with my ex-BF for many years (because she had lived with his dad for over six years before he was killed in a car accident). I had told my T how my mom seemed to really enjoy telling me about when the ex-BF got married, about how nice his wife was and she couldn't help liking her, every time they had another kid, etc. And it hurt terribly to hear this news. My former T asked me, have you ever told her not to tell you about the ex-BF? I almost laughed in his face...I said of course not, I would never do that, I don't want her to know it hurts, because that's what she wants! Seriously, she would watch me closely when she told me these things, with a little half-smile on her face, like it would please her to see my pain. So I don't even want her to see my pain over the ex-BF...and to admit any hurt associated with her, even just to myself, is much more difficult. The anger is a lot safer, and I can't even get in touch with that most of the time.
Maybe it is due to those cultural defenses BB so eloquently explained - that was beautiful, BB, I think you're on to something there.

Anyway Russ I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your posting about this...your brutal honesty and the great feedback you are getting from everyone else is helping me see where I might need to go with my own long-buried anger and hurt, too.

I really hope those feelings that are threatening to bubble over start to leak out very soon so you get some blessed relief from the head fog...I'll bet you are right on the money that it's the repressed (?) feelings (of hurt) that are the source of it. Kashley gave such a perfect analogy to illustrate the relationship between the hurt and anger - the burner keeping the pot boiling - and if the rate of "boiling" is any indication, the hurt to you must be very great indeed. I hope the next two weeks goes by more quickly than expected for you so you can get back into the therapy with your T. And I hope posting here provides at least enough of a relief to get you through till then.

Take care,
SG

SG, I've had those dreams too - where my mum is just shouting at me, and/or I'm just shouting and shouting at her, swearing and yelling. It stays with me through the day too.

I'm sorry to hear about your mum relapsing into that dependent behaviour after your let your guard down. I hope you can hold the boundary.

J

SG,

Thanks for the kind thoughts and for sharing your experience of your mom with me. Of course I don't mind!! I'm really sorry that you've had to endure that kind of behaviour from someone who was supposed to care for you. Parents seem to forget that they were the ones who brought us into this world, and as far as I'm concerned, if they went ahead and had us, then deprived us of what we needed to become healthy adults, then we don't owe them a single g-damn thing.

One thing that helped me really grab onto my anger is looking at old photos of myself as a kid, and reading my letters from camp and from prep school. I was so lonely and so dying for connection with someone. And then one night my mother reminded me that my father never did anything with me except take me to the store with him on Sunday to get the papers. This just completely broke my heart and made me furious. And also thinking about how much I hated him when I was in high school...all these things made it easier for me to find and hang onto the anger. Maybe something like this will help you, too. Remember, this person brought you into this world, and she was obligated to supply you with a basic set of things and you did not get those things when you deserved to get those things. I'm not saying our parents should've been perfect, but hell, you don't have a child, then set him/her in the corner like a potted plant.

Yes, I'm hoping that the greater access that I have to my anger is paving the way for the more difficult stuff below it. And you know, this whole idea of feeling/processing unfelt feelings equalling relief of symptoms...I've been clinging to this thing for so long that I wonder if it's actually some kind of magical thinking, and relief comes some other way. Still, I like to hope it will happen that way for us. I think part of what makes that idea so appealing is that not only do you achieve relief from the hated symptoms, but now you now WHY it all happened in the first place. Maybe a fantasy, maybe not. I guess only time will tell.

Best,
Russ

(((((((((Russ))))))))))

Reading that post where you poured out your anger broke my heart. I understood so much of what you were saying and feeling and I am sorry, so very sorry, that you have been injured in this way and have to deal with this depth of pain. You deserved so much more than what you got. I remember feeling so much of what you described and I know how very painful it is. You are such a clear and shining spirit (despite your head fog!) and I hate that you were so hurt.

I believe you're right in believing there is hurt under the anger. I don't know if you ever read any of my posts about it but I actually participated in 15 sessions of group therapy around 20 years ago which led to a major breakthrough for me. I could get in touch with all of my hurt but never any anger. (My dad was very violent when angry, I had learned to equate the two and anger became both very dangerous. Getting angry at my dad would get me hurt and I feared hurting others if I let myself get angry. Remind me to tell you the story about feeling good when my T told me he would call the authorities if he needed to in order to keep both of us safe. ). There was another woman in the group who was my reflection. She was ANGRY, all the time!! And her hurt was glaringly obvious, but she couldn't feel it or express it or admit it. Watching her over the weeks, made me realize that maybe my anger was as deeply buried. (OK, one of the facilitators confronting me and saying AG I hear your pain and it's legitimate, but where's your anger? probably helped too. I ended up screaming in the car and pounding on the steering wheel on my way home from that session. ) Often the thing we can express, is, I think the less dangerous or more acceptable for us to do so. I think you nailed it with your description of the American male and how it's "ok" for you to be angry but not acceptable for you to be hurt.

But your T doesn't think it's unacceptable nor is he unwilling to listen. You have a safe place to stop and let this in.

I hope you enjoy General Theory of Love, I know I get a little crazed about that book, it was just so pivotal in my healing.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
...I am sorry, so very sorry, that you have been injured in this way and have to deal with this depth of pain.

AG,

Thanks so much for the lovely comments. This might sound odd but, while I too am sorry that I was mis-treated by my father, raging against him is not painful for me. It's intense and sometimes scary, but not one bit painful, even when I have mixed feelings about him. I feel 100% justified in my anger toward him, and it feels good to get it out. There ain't a whole lot of guilt about my anger there, and I'm really grateful for that.

Where the pain of my experience comes in is, as you mention, the conflict between the stuff under the anger that is trying to come out and the psychological forces in place that prevent it from coming out.

It's kind of like there's a wall of repression, and that wall was sturdy for many years, and the feelings behind it were kept mostly in check, leaking out once in a while with occasional night-time anxiety attacks, or back pain, or stomach problems, or hives, etc, etc. But now, they're battering viciously at the door, and that conflict shows up as the evil fog.

Of course I can't say for sure that this is what's going on, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit. And who knows, when those feelings finally come out, they may make the symptoms seem like a day at the park. I won't know till and if it happens.

Oh, I would love to hear the story about your T and his willingness to call the cops!

BTW, are you familiar with Dr. John Sarno? If not, you might want to check his book. This one is especially good. It makes a very convincing argument for not only the mindbody connection, but for symptoms like depression, anxiety, backpain, CFS, etc, etc as the mind's way of distracting us from feeling painful emotions. I'm guessing a lot of us here have had revolving symptoms over the years. He calls this the "symptom imperative." For me, I had chronic back pain for 5 years (just fine now), gastro problems, etc., so it makes sense to me.

Anyway, just thought I'd put that out there.

Thanks again!
Russ

Hi Russ,
Thanks for the book recommendation, I checked it out on Amazon and am definitely intrigued. It's available on Kindle so if I can't get it at the library, I'll probably just buy a copy. I am really intrigued because research has proven that people who undergo long term trauma as children experience more physical illness in adulthood than normal because the long term stress actually impairs their immune system. So the connection he's talking about makes total sense to me.

AG

AG,

The Sarno book is worth it. And as someone who suffered with back pain for years, and even had back surgery, I can tell you that what he says is the truth. My back pain "mysteriously" went away when I landed a job I didn't hate.

And of course, if you tell most people, "our emotions can cause actual, physiological changes in our bodies that can result in crippling pain, with the purpose of distracting us from frightening, repressed emotions" and you can guess what kind of response you'll get.

My brother in-law, Paul for example. The day his second, and last, son goes off to college, Paul's back "goes out." He's in such pain he can't even walk. Then his legs start to hurt with sciatica. Basically, he's crippled. So was I with the same thing.

So he has an MRI. There is NOTHING on the MRI. NOTHING. In fact, the doctor tells him, "you have the spine of a 22 year old." Huh. How odd!

Oh yeah, Paul is also a recovering alcoholic from a very f-ed up family, but we don't wanna talk about that.

So I tell my sister to get the Sarno book for him. Of course she doesn't, and he keeps going to PT and chiros and the rest of the back pain industry in an attempt to "cure" his back problem.

Anyway, enough of my ranting...let me know what you think of the book if you get it.

Russ

I have Sarno's book. I've had problems with my back completely going out to the point of not being able to walk at times. It almost always happens at the worst possible time and when I have extreme stress. I got it in January when I threw my back out. Good read!

Hi Russ, I want to chime in here (finally) and thank you for starting this thread. There has been a lot of good informtion and food for thought posted here. Beyond that, I am really sorry that you are struggling so much because I understand how crippling anxiety can be. It takes over your life and makes everything seem so difficult. Like walking with cement shoes on or trying to walk through quick sand. It's just such an effort and takes so much out of you.

For me, when things get scary or feel dangerous I get the anxiety and then also the dissociated feeling... so I'm either worried and nervous or I'm just not present. Either situation makes it so hard to focus on anything or accomplish anything. Work has been so difficult for the past year or so. It's only through force of will that things get done there. I just don't care beyond that.

I'm looking at my own two week break with my T in late August. Let's just say that last year was not a very good time for me. We had a very severe test of our relationship at that time... one that I truly didn't think we would survive. But we did because I was able to find it in me to forgive him for something he did that caused me great pain. And for his part, he was humble enough to apologize multiple times. But that said, it is making me feel so skittish about his vacation this year that I can already feel myself shutting down and withdrawing or perhaps pushing him away. I tend to do this. If I feel that someone is leaving me, well I'll just leave them first, even if it's only mentally and emotionally.

I'm so scared at what will happen when he's gone that I arranged to be away myself part of the time he is just so I'm distracted and not in my usual daily routine. I'm hoping this helps a little. He tried to bring up the subject of his vacation two weeks ago and I just shut him down cold. I do not want to even think about it and I yelled at him for introducing it as a topic of discussion. He has let it drop for now.

As for anger... I understand that too. While it's more acceptable for men to get angry rather than show tender emotions, it's not so acceptable for women to show it and although I'm sure I have a lot of it... it must be buried very deeply because I cannot really get to it. Aside from that, anger was very scary for me as a child. When my mother got angry I got hit and saw her out of control. So I equate anger with loss of control (which I work so hard to always have) and violence and hurt. Recently, I've been tentatively angry and that made my T really happy. They are weird people ... but as soon as I feel it I shut it down and move away from it.

Okay I've rambled enough. I just wanted to offer my support and understanding. You will make it through these two weeks as I did and having this place for support is a real asset.

Best,
TN