kashley
Well that's you and me both. Have felt totally inadequate to post anything valuable or of interest recently and have been so caught up with my stuff in T sessions I haven't been able to do much else. So no need to apologise - I think we all understand.

But I just wanted to add my thoughts to your dissociation concerns, to normalise it a bit if I can, to give you that 'thank goodness I'm not the only one' sense of relief maybe

quote:

After last week, I've worried that my T would grow impatient with me and my inability to stay grounded in session. I was spacey and jumbled for most of my session yesterday, too. My T asked me if I knew what triggered it, but I didn't have an answer for her. At that point, I was way too foggy-headed to think anything productive.

In between sessions, I feel useless because I can't concentrate on barely anything, but I can't think enough of the sessions to try and process anything from them that might help me get past this block. It seems like a physical barrier in my mind

that all sounds very familiar to me, I have whole sessions of feeling jumbly and spacey and thinking sometime soon my T will get fed up with me.... but she doesn't, because, like yours, she knows that it is not in my control at all; that we dissociate for a reason, whether we are triggered by past memories (in my case usually by the thought that I'm in danger)or by something in the present that causes the same reaction.

It is really horrid, makes us feel mad, and I know it's really frustrating. I am glad your T is supportive, it would be far worse if she was dismissive or frustrated, she needs to know when you do this though kashley... do you think you could tell her the triggers? My T used to inadvertently trigger me all the time, until she and I realised what was happening; but it still happens to me. Grounding is often the way forward, but I 'm not very good still at that, get so immersed in the memory or dissociation that although I know what I should be doing, I usually am unable to do anything except for to sit it out safely and then talk about it afterwards - and it's the talking thing that's helped the most.

Your stuff is certainly not small potatoes kashley, we are all different with different needs and experiences and all are equally important as the rest. Yours very much included

(I am going away for a while on holiday so if I don't post after tomorrow, that's why - well at least one reason!!!)

starfish

I'm not really sure what the definition of dissociation is, but I often experience difficulty following what my T is saying, and often forget what we covered in a previous session. And as far as feeling foggy...well, I spend a lot of time feeling that way.

But, a lot of the points my T makes are rather complex, and if I forget what was talked about in a previous, I can bring it all right back with a few hints from him.

Or, I can make a very clear, cogent observation, but than I just let it go. It's like making an important discovery, then just forgetting about it. Just another defence, I guess.

quote:

But, recently, I think I've realized that any sense of closeness, or caring, toward (and from) my T triggers it.

+10000


Anyway, the foggy, spacey, forgetfullness in T...happens to me pretty often.

Russ

Kashley, you have nothing to apologize about. It's good to see you.

quote:

Or, I can make a very clear, cogent observation, but than I just let it go. It's like making an important discovery, then just forgetting about it. Just another defence, I guess.

Whoa, yeah...this one really frustrates me. Actually everything here resonates with me as well. I find it scary and disturbing and annoying and frustrating. I wish I could just make it go away. Are these what they call psychological defenses, or is it just something that happens to everyone? I forget so much and space out so much that my Dr. sent me to a neurologist and I have to have 3 brain scans, but I'm pretty sure it's all just depression or whatever related.

BB

i am with you, i forget so much, i know i am in there an hour (back with T1) and i have a few notes, but i am in such a half-concious state that the little steps could be bigger if i knew what had happened the whole hour.

i am seriously thinking of recording sessions, discretely. not that i think she would do anything different, or that i would use it outside of myself, but just to keep it to what she would do recorded or not...

HOW DO YOU DISCRETELY RECORD A SESSION? I HAVE AN IPHONE 3G, will it do it?? do i need to upgrade to get one that will?? i am just picturing those old tape decks, and that is obviously not what is needed. russ??? was it you that records???

thanks and i don't mean to steer this thread another direction....but when you DO dissassociate, you have not a full recollection of your recent therapy 'purchase'!!

Monte, Starfish, Russ, Blackbird - thank you for your responses and being so kind. I relate so much to what each one of you has said.

quote:

My intellect departs and my mind just empties itself and all I have to offer is monotone 3-4 word sentences and shrugs and sighs and shakes of the head. It's maddening. And embarrassing - it leaves me feeling so stupid.

Yes, it is embarrassing, isn't it? I was literally mid-sentence in my last session, trying to think about the best way to explain something, and my mind just blanked and I sat there in silence for a few minutes until my T prompted me. I eventually just said that I was too confused to answer.

quote:

she needs to know when you do this though kashley... do you think you could tell her the triggers? My T used to inadvertently trigger me all the time, until she and I realised what was happening; but it still happens to me. Grounding is often the way forward, but I 'm not very good still at that, get so immersed in the memory or dissociation that although I know what I should be doing, I usually am unable to do anything except for to sit it out safely and then talk about it afterwards - and it's the talking thing that's helped the most.

In my next session I'll try to open up about the possible trigger. I wonder, have any of you experienced a delayed reaction to a trigger? Just a delay of a few minutes. I was a bit spacey the entire session yesterday, but I can identify one moment that may have been the trigger for my stronger dissociation. My memory of it is a little fuzzy, but I don't remember going straight into a tailspin right after a particularly triggering moment (it was one where my T was reaching out (figuratively) toward me in a way that I'm not familiar with). I don't know, it seemed a little bit like I experienced a shock, but it took a few minutes for the shockwaves to settle and the dissociation to try and set in.

quote:

Or, I can make a very clear, cogent observation, but than I just let it go. It's like making an important discovery, then just forgetting about it. Just another defence, I guess.

Yes - I find this very frustrating. I think I forget a large amount of the things that I learn in therapy - I do think it is a defense. For me, I know that whenever I make some sort of cogent observation like you're talking about, it's pretty much strictly intellectual. I don't connect it with any emotions. It's not one of those moments where things "click" and I'm able to turn a corner. Even though I make myself write as much about my sessions as I can remember in my journal, even by then I forget those important "discoveries." Sometimes I might remember them, but they seem insignificant by then.

BB, I can relate to how scary it can be to forget so many things. I have read several things about how depression really can affect memory. I was dealing with the worst of my depression a few years ago, and I really don't remember much of that time at all. Nonetheless, let us know how the brain scans go.

Hi Jill, I was about to post this and saw your post. I think that if I had the guts, I would record my sessions. Discretely, too. There's always so much that I can't remember that yes, those little steps could definitely be bigger. I know I would hate listening to myself, though! I don't have an iPhone, but it probably has a recording function on it. I hope your session goes well, and let us know if you do end up recording.

{{{{{{{kashley}}}}}}}

Just like everyone else said, I don't think you are doing anything wrong, and you certainly don't have anything to apologize for! We all contribute what we can, when we can, and we're all here for each other, even if sometimes we go silent for a while. And sharing your own stuff helps just as much as answering other posts - it's just a different type of giving, but just as important!!! You have no idea how much others are relating to you, many of whom we may never hear from because they are being silent right now. You are "normalizing" other people's experiences just by sharing your own. It is always good to hear from you!

As far as I know I don't dissociate, my defenses are more to intellectualize or just "freeze" but I don't think the freezing counts as dissociation.

Anyway, as I was reading your post the first thought I had was that you must be on the right track with your T, not the wrong one. Dissociation is a protective measure, a defense, right? And that wouldn't be happening unless you were approaching past hurts. So it totally makes sense that this is happening. Certainly not fun...and sounds very confusing...but I'm glad you shared it here so you can get some support and hear that it's not just you who does this.

And one other thing...I think you are being WAY WAY WAY too hard on yourself. Didn't you just start with this T not too long ago? The hurts you are approaching must be very big, to have set up a dissociation defense. It sounds like this is going to take a while...I don't think it's something that can be worked through quickly. Several others have said around here, when it comes to trauma work in therapy, the slower you go, the faster you'll get there. And from what I can see, you're going quite fast already if you are starting to dissociate because that means you're "knocking at the door" of something BIG. So slow down, take a deep breath, and just keep talking to your T (and us, too, if you're up to it). You're doing excellent work! And I really appreciate that you're sharing it here with us so we can cheer you on and give you support.

Big hugs,
SG

Hi SG,

Thank you so so much for the support. You are so kind. Yes, I have heard from both of my current T and my last T that I am very hard on myself. I don't even realize it, either. I realized pretty recently that I might push myself in therapy because of the 10 session limit I had before. I feel like I have this skewed view of time in therapy - that I need to get it all out now and figure it out, because I'll be on my own again soon. It is going to take a while to work through that.

Apparently, I dissociated a little with my last T, but it was only a zoning out sort of thing - I wasn't in the room, but it wasn't as unsettling and a complete separating experience as it has been with this new T. But my last T said that if I was dissociating, then it is the indicator of some sort of "significant psychological injury." I have a very hard time being compassionate and patient with myself, and since I've been functioning so well for so long, I know I'm less likely to be kinder to myself even with whatever dissociation may or may not be indicating. Ugh. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, despite the signs, I don't think that I've dealt with anything that warrants dissociation like I have been experiencing. And I'm too impatient to sit with the dissociation and the knowledge that I dissociate, because I don't think I have a viable reason for doing it (this is strictly for me - I don't think this way for anyone else at all, ever).

And yes, I did start recently with this T...I think my last session was number 6. It's amazing how different two T's can be - even though I really liked my last T, I could feel my current T tapping into emotions in the second session, making me actually want to cry. I never cried with my ex-T. So, whatever it means, I guess it's no wonder that I'm dissociating so early on.

SG, can you describe a little more about what you do/feel when you 'freeze?' I know you've mentioned it in other posts before, but I need a little refresher!

quote:

Originally posted by jill:
russ??? was it you that records???

Jill, I don't record my sessions, but it's not a bad idea.

Hi Kashley,

Just to clarify...you don't have an actual limit to the number of sessions now, do you? I certainly hope not...that being said, even without ever having had a limit to the number of sessions, I can VERY MUCH relate to this feeling:

quote:

I feel like I have this skewed view of time in therapy - that I need to get it all out now and figure it out, because I'll be on my own again soon.

My current T called my attention to this in one of our first few sessions. At the beginning I was talking really fast in sessions, kind of excitedly but hurriedly, like an auctioneer. She stopped me and we talked about that. She asked, is it like you're so relieved to have someone listening that you feel like you have to hurry up before they stop listening? And I said yes, that's it exactly. I've got to cram as much into what I'm saying before you stop paying attention. Then she asked, how much was I listened to as a kid...um, what? Basically I wasn't. I don't ever remember being listened to. I don't even remember having that expectation. Just the knowledge that I wouldn't be. So the point here is, I've learned to slow down and trust that she will still be "there" both physically and emotionally and mentally. And so far she hasn't let me down or given any indication that she's going to give up.

In fact, in the last session I finally brought up the thing that brought me to therapy in the first place, which is the thing that NO ONE has had the patience to listen to, but the thing I really need to get out...the feelings for the ex-BF. It's taken this long just to work through the feelings about the ex-T. And it worked, I've really "gotten over it" so that it doesn't send me down into that vortex of despair anymore. I very hesitantly asked her last session if we could look at my letters...apologetically expecting her to be irritated, wondering how long is this going to take...but she was very agreeable and said we can take as much time as we need...I don't know how many times I said "thank you" but it was a lot. And yet I can still feel myself pressuring myself to hurry and get it done...or at the very least, to "prove" to her that I mean business, that I'm going somewhere with this, if that makes sense. I spent so much energy trying to show this to the ex-T and he just didn't seem to understand that this really wasn't about the ex-BF, it was really about me and healing this old hurt. Which was so confusing because HE (the ex-T) was the one who pointed out that the ex-BF was just a "symbol" for something else...gah. There I go again, trying to figure him out again...sorry I've gotten off track here.

The point is...I'm really grateful that my T is allowing for the time it takes. The only thing I'm worried about now is that she will move to Florida...when I first met her, she said that is originally where she wanted to find work (she has two lovely pictures of ocean beach scenes in her office). Wisconsin is a far cry from that...so sometimes I worry that she will find a way to move to Florida.

Anyway, others on here have mentioned this paradox before, that NOT having a time limit or restrictions on what I can talk about (and what I can't) is what will allow me to move forward. So I hope you find the same freedom in your own therapy.

quote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, despite the signs, I don't think that I've dealt with anything that warrants dissociation like I have been experiencing.

Hmmm...why would you be dissociating, if there wasn't a reason that warrants it? Maybe there really is a similar phenomenon that happens to people for no reason at all, but I can't think of what it would be (that's not sarcasm, by the way...I really am trying to imagine what else these symptoms could be). And if there really is a reason, how could you possibly know what it is at this point? Just wondering...all I can say is keep talking to your T about what's going on, even if it's totally confusing and doesn't make any sense.

As for the freezing thing...it happens in therapy when I can't decide what to talk about next. Especially when I first begin because it feels so damn AWKWARD to start talking about myself right away. And then when I get done with a certain point, I freeze again before I switch to another topic. An image that comes to mind is the wheels on a slot machine in mid-spin...where is it going to stop next? I think at first my T thought I was dissociating (based on what she would say, such as "where did you go just now?") but now I'm not sure she thinks that, even though she still asks where did I go sometimes. She has also asked if I'm trying to talk about the "right" thing, or do therapy "right"...and I'd have to say "yes" on both counts, still. So that probably accounts for some of the freeze response, too. So it is probably a defense, too...just a different kind of defense than dissociation, which from what I've heard and read is a way you learn to escape within yourself from terrifying and traumatic experiences. Getting close to someone can trigger it even after the traumatic experiences have stopped. Anyway I don't even want to try to speak to that because I don't think that's what I have...but lots of others here have described their experiences with this and you are in good hands with them!!

Good luck, {{{Kashley}}}.
SG

Thanks for the posts, SG and FOT. SG, I'm so glad you got to talk to your T about your ex-BF and have her really listen to you.

quote:

Just wish the knowledge itself lead to healing without getting so involved in therapy.

Wouldn't that make it all so much easier? I think when I first started therapy, that's what I expected. That now that I know someone is listening, I can talk and be comfortable and get out everything that I need to get out. Yeah right!

Luckily, I don't have a time limit with my T now. A couple sessions ago, she said, "we have time, right?" She was just making sure, because I guess I give off this sense of a being in a rush to get things done when I'm there. I told her that we did have time, but I didn't feel like we did. I still have this pessimistic idea that some sort of circumstances, whether they are my fault or not, will keep me from talking to her. All the more reason for me to feel so hesitant to get at all attached to her.

Knowing that someone is listening but having this idea of some sort of time limit (which doesn't exist) makes me selective about what I talk about. Sort of like you, SG, I'm trying to do therapy "right." I want to talk about the right things, make the right insights, etc., all so that I can get through therapy in a nice, clean manner. Ha. I guess I sort of cherish (yet still remain disbelieving) the idea of someone listening to me, so I don't want to waste their ears on something that's not "right." I'm afraid that my T won't care to hear anything I have to say if I don't pick the right things to say. In that sense, I relate to your freeze response, SG - I always have a VERY hard time starting sessions. A couple sessions ago, I said that a lot of times I felt lost when I first came in, and my T said that she thinks it contributes to the fluidity of the sessions. Well, that may be so, but it doesn't make it any easier! But it's forced me to bring up topics that are bothering me. Granted, they're smaller and less important, but starting off that way has sort of helped me eventually get around to poking at what really bothers me, even if I don't entirely reveal it.

This T and my ex-T both asked that question a lot ("where did you just go?") - whenever I freeze and am at a loss for what to say, I keep expecting my current T to ask me, but she seems to be able to recognize (though I have no clue how) when I am starting to dissociate from when I just don't know where to go next.

By Monte-

quote:

I frequently experience the brain-fog of dissociation. My intellect departs and my mind just empties itself and all I have to offer is monotone 3-4 word sentences and shrugs and sighs and shakes of the head. It's maddening. And embarrassing - it leaves me feeling so stupid.

YUP!!

(and... don't apologize- totally not necessary, we love and grow by supporting each other where we are at in this jungle of relationships. We walk through the jungle together.

By Kashley- But, recently, I think I've realized that any sense of closeness, or caring, toward (and from) my T triggers it.

YUP again.
Somewhere there is a thread I had started called??? What do you do when your T triggers you." I can soooo relate.
Hang in there.

quote:

Originally posted by Mayo:

By Kashley- But, recently, I think I've realized that any sense of closeness, or caring, toward (and from) my T triggers it.

So I guess the question is...how do we break down that defence?

Yuck. It goes completely against why I'm in therapy, but the thought of accepting that closeness is even scarier and more frustrating than dealing with the dissociation and makes me not want to do it. A couple sessions ago I said I was feeling spacey, and my T (cheerily) suggested that we talk about the weather. Maybe I'll just happen to find a latent passion for meteorology in therapy.

quote:

Originally posted by kashley:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, despite the signs, I don't think that I've dealt with anything that warrants dissociation like I have been experiencing.

First off, I agree with what the others have been saying. You have no reason to apologize. I think everyone here understands how we all go through cycles of being able to participate more or less. I totally understand the being too hard on yourself thing, I do that too.

As for the quote above, that is the beauty of dissociation. If you were fully aware of what it was that you were dissociating about, it wouldn't be dissociated. Sounds a bit like I'm talking in circles, but the reason that things are dissociated is because they are too overwhelming for your mind to deal with at the moment or at the time they happened in the first place. It sounds like this T is working a bit differently than the first one and is tapping into more stuff. If you can try to figure out the triggers that can help. My T will trigger me inadvertently and we are just getting to the point where I can identify it and we can deal with it.

I understand the mind emptying. I have varying levels of dissociation. There is that mind going blank bit where I can't speak and there is literally nothing there. I try to think of something and everything is just blank. Then there is the type where I get floaty and everything just goes numb. It's as if someone just gave me an injection of Valium or something. Many times when I get triggered in T I can't move, can't speak and can't do anything. I can hear myself in the back of my head saying, "say something!! Anything!!", but I just can't. It is maddening!

Kashley I’m so glad that you are posting again and want to echo everyone else, no need at all to apologize. Wasn’t going to reply in this thread because I have no experience of dissociation and would just be waffling for the sake of it, so really just want to say hi and send you good wishes.

LL

STRM and LL - thank you for being so accepting and supporting. You all, and everyone else here, are incredible.

You're not talking in circles at all, STRM. It's just confusing to have this dissociation when I'm in therapy, because I don't have it outside of therapy. At least not that I'm aware of. So I guess that's what makes it hard to accept that the dissociation is there for a reason, because it seems so sudden. I keep thinking that I must just be overly sensitive or something. I mean, can dissociation pop up in that circumstance?

I experienced something similar to what you're talking about, STRM. One session I felt this odd sensation of tingling all over my body. Kind of like when a part of your body starts to go numb. In my last session, toward the end, I stopped talking mid-sentence because I lost my train of thought completely. My mind was so blank, and I couldn't force words out of my mouth. I kept yelling at myself to focus, to say something just to keep from feeling like a completely useless blob. It wasn't quite to the same degree as what you've experienced (thankfully - I can't imagine how frustrating that is) but I barely managed to say that I couldn't say anything anymore. Luckily, that was the end of the session anyway. But it doesn't change the fact that I just felt stupid, having to stop in the middle of a sentence and never being able to get back on track, even with help from my T.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences with this. It caught me so off guard when I experienced it the first time, and now that it's happened in every session since then, well, I don't really know what to think of that.

Kashley:

quote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, despite the signs, I don't think that I've dealt with anything that warrants dissociation like I have been experiencing. And I'm too impatient to sit with the dissociation and the knowledge that I dissociate, because I don't think I have a viable reason for doing it (this is strictly for me - I don't think this way for anyone else at all, ever).

I so relate to what you have said here. I'm starting to see this as alomost the crux of my problems...that I can't seem to believe that my problems, defenses or whatever you want to call them, even exist. I'm firmly convinced that I am making all of my problems and defenses up "just to get attention." I need to talk about this with my T because it has been coming up a lot lately. My T has never suggested that I dissassociate as a defense...and, I have no idea if that's what I'm doing...but I certainly don't think that it is something that I have a "right" to be doing, if I am doing it. Nothing in my past arrants that. Then I wonder...hm, if I am dissassociating in sessions and probably in life to the extent that it is giving me a serious memory problem, could it be a response to trauma, and could I in fact, be considered to be a person with a traumatic past? It is strange to think of myself like that, since I still think I had this loving family... Or is it possible to develop that type of a strong defense in response to psychological rather than physical trauma? I know that I dealt with a fair bit of psychological trauma. Any physical abuse I endured (more slight) would have almost come as a relief at those times, oddly. Like, ok, this is real this I can see as "wrong to me."

SG:

quote:

As for the freezing thing...it happens in therapy when I can't decide what to talk about next. Especially when I first begin because it feels so damn AWKWARD to start talking about myself right away. And then when I get done with a certain point, I freeze again before I switch to another topic.

Phew can I relate to this too. so hard to get started talking to T, and he insists on it. He's so darn stubborn about it, he just son't be the first one to say something. Says it's "part of the therapy." ugh. I don't get this.

Kashley:

quote:

Knowing that someone is listening but having this idea of some sort of time limit (which doesn't exist) makes me selective about what I talk about. Sort of like you, SG, I'm trying to do therapy "right." I want to talk about the right things, make the right insights, etc.,

For me, the time limit within the session is the problem here. I'm so afraid that I'll just be getting into emotional stuff (takes me a long time to get there) and then he'll be like "ok, time's up, bye!" and I'll be left with this gunk until the next time I see him a month later.

Kashley:

quote:

This T and my ex-T both asked that question a lot ("where did you just go?") - whenever I freeze and am at a loss for what to say,

Hm, I think my T has asked me this too...I never knew what to say...

Russ:

quote:

So I guess the question is...how do we break down that defence?

Boy is that ever the million doallar question!

BB

quote:

but I certainly don't think that it is something that I have a "right" to be doing

Oh, that's it exactly. And it's such a messed up notion, but I can't get past it. I just wish I understood. I need more patience.

quote:

I'm so afraid that I'll just be getting into emotional stuff (takes me a long time to get there) and then he'll be like "ok, time's up, bye!"

You hit the nail on the head again, BB. That was a major problem I had with my last T and in group therapy, since both of those were limited to a small number of sessions. Getting into 'deep' emotional stuff just didn't seem worth the turmoil. I can't imagine having the month in between (I admire you for being able to deal with that), because digging into unknown territory is daunting enough, even when I only have a week in between. These past few weeks, I've found it so hard to concentrate and function because I'm left so perplexed by these sessions.

quote:

quote:
This T and my ex-T both asked that question a lot ("where did you just go?") - whenever I freeze and am at a loss for what to say,

Hm, I think my T has asked me this too...I never knew what to say...

Whenever my T asks me this, I've normally zoned out, thinking about something that's relevant to what we were talking about. It's typically some minor memory - but I'm in the memory, watching myself replay it. If that makes any sense whatsoever. I guess, technically, it's dissociation, but everyone zones out like that it seems like. It's the more major dissociation that I'm so unfamiliar with.

I certainly believe that psychological trauma could cause dissociation. Of course, I don't think I've been subject to anything like that. Which contributes even more toward my frustrations. These self-loathing thoughts are such a hassle.