Lamplighter,

First off, I was anything but bored reading your post. Reading your post, I could feel your emotion, your desperation to have someone understand you and listen to you. I am so sorry that you had such a bad session, especially after having such a great impression on Tuesday.

I understand the need to collect some basic background and history. I think that is pretty typical, but I don't understand the method that she went about to get it. From what I've read in your other posts, it seems that what you need is someone to recognize that while you are telling these "facts" that you might encounter some anxiety, upset and stress and that you need a T who will be attuned to your needs and help you to pace yourself (and who can pace themselves) in order to safely gather the background information. I'm so sorry that she didn't understand and didn't validate the emotions that you were feeling. Emotions that were completely understandable for anyone who has been through trauma and emotions that were completely justified. It sounds like the session got off to such a bad start and was so mis-attuned from the beginning that it would have been almost impossible for you to get it back on track yourself once you were triggered by her questions. I am totally lost by her comment that you can't "emote" every session and that isn't what therapy is about. I would agree that the goal of therapy isn't necessarily to "emote", however it is often a byproduct of dealing with difficult stuff and if she isn't comfortable with that then she needs to get into another field.

I know it is easy to blame yourself and that you are expressing that you feel you are beyond help. I don't believe that. You are worth getting the help that you need and I believe that you will find someone that you can work with. Do you plan to go on Monday?

I wish I had better advice (I'm sure others will), but I wanted you to know that I hear what you are saying and I feel the pain in your post. I'm so sorry.

Lamplighter-
I am so so sorry for you, but you must trust your instincts. If you feel that you can't do that just yet, then trust mine- fire that cold hearted Bit#$! do not go back on on Monday. Put a stop payment on your check! No one should be treated like that.

Oh, sorry, I am not supposed to give advice am I. but put on your walking shoes and do not look back, not even once.

You are a beautiful, highly, highly intelligent, sensitive person and you deserve so much more.

Don't forget, this site has a wealth of info about picking a therapist. One of the biggest things was attunement.

I hear nothing of worth about that therapist. Please do not go back- you are worth so much more.
Hang in there and pick up the search for a new T when you are feeling better.

Maybe she was just pretending to be nice the first time. And if you did go back a third time, whether she is mean or nice- you will still be confused, and you might not be able to trust her.

I am sorry if I should not write like this- giving advice.

((((((((((((((((Lamlighter)))))))))))))))))))))) so many hugs!

Oh, Lamplighter, I hear your pain and am so sorry for all the shattered hopes! I am sorry I have no words of my own that will allay your pain. But if you don't mind, I want to share part of a message that you wrote to me this past week when I was in a similar place emotionally.

quote:

IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT! Nor should you be beating yourself up for not having magically known that this T wasn’t right for you in the first place - you went to your T in absolute good faith, bringing yourself and whatever problems or issues you had - and it was her job to help you and be on your side and not your job to have to double guess what her agenda might be.

Ditto!

deeplyrooted

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lamplighter}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Oh LL...how unbelievably disappointing. And strange...does this T have some kind of evil twin? It sounds like some kind of "good T/bad T" trick. Taking information is one thing, but her attitude toward you was inexcusable, baffling, rude, and insensitive in more ways than I can count. This could hardly be a mis-perception on your part. You related what she said very well, and I believe she presented a very different picture to you between the first session and the second. It's not you that's off...it's this chick. How scary. RUN, don't just walk away from this T!!!

You are certainly not boring, or complaining too much...on the contrary, you are an insightful, courageous, intelligent, compassionate person. You deserve everything you were expecting her to be, and more. I know it's really tough right now, please keep coming here and post as much as you need to.

Hugs,
SG

((((((((LL))))))))

I just want to second what everyone has said - you're not to blame, her insensitive manner of treating you was horrible, and you have EVERY RIGHT to be completely pissed off at her and the situation. I know how hard it can be to keep from turning your thoughts inward and wondering what you did wrong, but you did absolutely nothing wrong.

Also, I just wanted to add a few things that might (I hope!) help in keeping you from beating yourself up too much about being so excited after the first session. Considering it was the first session with her, it is totally normal and expected that the therapist should speak a fair amount. There is absolutely no reason why that should have set off any alarms. Honestly, she seems a little self-absorbed (to me, at least) in thinking/saying/acting as if it's her way or the highway. Perhaps the first session seemed so cohesive because you just happened to be saying the "right" things. That would also explain her questions that she asked (still talking about the first session).

What I find SO COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS about this T is that you said that she told you she thinks it's GOOD for you to question/challenge her! When someone says that, it usually implies that they'll take your words in with respect and figure out how to make the whole experience a better one, but she did the exact opposite. Talk about not walking the walk. I hope you do not go to the session with her on Monday. You don't deserve to be treated like that! Sprint in the opposite direction!!!

LL,

(((((((((((((((((LL)))))))))))))))))))

I want to say first that I hear how much agony you are in, and how long this agony has gone on, and how despairing, disappointed and angry you are feeling. You don't deserve any of those feelings. You are a really good person - funny, kind, caring, and very smart. I think you deserve and need love and care, and that you are working towards healing in some incredibly productive ways - your strength in identifying that the last T wasn't for you, in seeking out one who will work for you, is a real inspiration.

I also want to say some other things. I really really hope I can say them without triggering the "LL is bad and wrong!" stuff in your head, because that's not what I believe.

But I do want to give you my honest feedback, on the off-chance it might help. I read the stuff above and wonder if there's another way to look at it. What I'm about to write is a bit different what others are responding with, and I want you to bear that in mind - because it could well be the flaws in my own make-up that are making me think this way.

You had a great deal on the line when you went to see this woman. You had a really positive experience with her to start with and that upped the stakes further. I get the feeling that with each session it feels like your whole self-worth and sense of hope is at stake - either this person is right and everything will be okay, or they are wrong, and you are wrong, and it's hopeless, and you will never be helped.

If I'm right that you feel this way, it's a terribly difficult situation to be in. When I feel this way about things (that it's do-or-die) I get incredibly anxious. And then EVERYTHING feels bad.

Am I saying your awful session was your fault? No. I'm saying that some things may have been going on inside you that you didn't have any control over, and maybe they had an effect on the way the session felt, and the resonances that the T's words took on.

Here's where I agree with your new T: blame is a real trap. It's a zero sum game. If something feels bad, and it has to be EITHER that the T was wrong (and horrible and bad) or you were wrong (and horrible and bad) there is no way forward. To keep yourself secure and feeling ok in yourself, you have to push away anything from the T that feels not quite right. There is no safe place from which to look at things from a different point of view. There is no safe place from which to modify things in conversation, to use conversation as a communication-work-in-progress - as in, "It's possible that I felt different to everyone outside my family, but I'm not sure if that's true or not. I need to think about that for a while. Did something I said give you that idea?"

To work like this means fending off (for a while) some stuff that may be coming up from inside you, that may LOOK like it's coming from the T - the idea that you HAVE to feel the way she suggests, the idea that she will hate you or punish you for feeling your own way or correcting her or saying something different.

It is absolutely possible that this T is a tyrant and that she does want to dictate how you feel. If that is the case, she will absolutely be wrong for you and impossible to work with. But I'm not sure.... I think maybe there was so much on the line in this session, after your heart woke up with hope, that those fears were loud inside you regardless. I know others are telling to run away - I just want to put in this one little voice: I'm not so sure. Not yet.

One other thing: I've had that experience with the quick-fire through the personal history in the first session or two. It's rough, but I don't think it's uncommon. I believe some T's actually try to get you through the history briefly first *without* connecting you too much to the feeling of it, so that they have an idea of what the ground is. I know it's really hard to tolerate, but I can also see how it might be good practice in some ways - like taking the bandage quickly off the WHOLE wound at once, so they don't just start treating one end with painstaking care without realising that the other end is haemorrhaging.

In a really gentle way, LL, I want to both acknowledge the depth and grief of your feelings here, and also to question this:

quote:

by having me recount my past in such a quick objective and factual way, she’s robbed me of the opportunity to actually tell my story properly - and whatever feelings I might have about it stuffed away forever.

That is an awful, awful loss to fear, and it really resonates with my feelings at the moment about EMDR - that I will lose my connection with my story. But I DO question it. Your story is not going to be stuffed away for ever (and neither is mine). Your story is yours, and can't be stolen from you. Also, my experience tells me that the once-through-lightly history taking is usually not the end of the story - it may well be that this T is getting a map of the territory before the real exploration begins.

LL, I'm sorry if any of my thoughts here are offensive to you. Please know that I offer them only speculatively - I don't wish to undermine anything you perceived or felt, but to expand the possibilities for looking at this situation. I have no idea if this T is an okay T for you or not, and I certainly don't wish to persuade you to stay with something that feels harmful. I just want to offer one more perspective.

Take care.

Jones

quote:

She asked me what I was crying about.

What!!???

And the whole questioning? And writing notes? Oh, no, no, no...

She sounds like some cold analyst. What kind of therapy was she doing? That all sounds so strange. I don't know but I don't like it, I wouldn't like her. The fact that she was taking notes while talking to you - my T never did that.
Asking questions and forcing things out of you when you were not ready, didn't build up trust yet - NO.

I know this wouldn't work for me. If I were you I would keep looking, just for somebody normal, behaving in a warm, humane way, being the same person every session. It sounds like the person you were talking to, was not the same person as you met during you first session.

Now, I'm just speaking from my own experience and there was no notes taking, questioning me to tell my history at one go and asking what I was crying about. These 3 things stand out for me from your story.

I hope you will not give up and keep looking for the right person.

Hmm, again different experiences might lead to different perspectives on the note-taking thing. My T takes notes *all* the time, every session. Somehow she manages to do it while also staying present with me - when I need the contact, she is always there.

BUT - here's the thing - in our very first session she explained to me that this is the way she worked, that she didn't have a good memory, and this helped her remember details and think about the sessions. She explained that what she was writing down was what I said, and that the notes were confidential to her and to any supervision she might have or if I transferred (with permission). She asked if I was okay with that and when I tried to race through the conversation and dismiss it like it wasn't a big deal, she said it was important, and that thinking about these things was important. Many times I've been really grateful she has the notes.

I think all that explanation was key to how I felt about it, and maybe that's the thing that's important with all of this stuff - not so much what happens, but how much attention there is to the background conversation about what happens. LL, it does sound like there wasn't enough of that kind of conversation to make you feel ok.

Sorry for swimming against the stream with my feedback here. I have a lot of respect for everyone's opinions - they are intelligent, thoughtful, caring & grounded in experience - and for your feelings and experience, LL, which is ultimately your truest guide. But some things were striking me in a different way, and I hope that it might be ok to try on some different thoughts, even if they prove not to sit right in the end.

LL

Oh dear - this all sounds really really difficult for you and very confusing too. I read your post and was confused by her behaviour, so little wonder you are.

I agree really with all the posts here, the same alarm bells ring for me in various aspects of what you reported but I can see where Jones is coming from too - that our expectations are so high because this is SO important and we desperately need it to be right. And when it goes wrong - boy does it go wrong and feel so dreadful. What's hard here LL is that you haven't got the pre-existing relationship with her to contest or discuss how you feel. I have had a few sessions over the years when I have felt for some reason poles apart from my T, when usually there is a strong open connection, I have though been able to return and discuss it. Almost each time I have to say, it was me totally misunderstanding something that was said and deciding I needed to run, but my T is always humble to ant criticism and we can always talk it through. What alarms me though here is that she saw your distress, you verbalised why you were so upset and she did not appear to try and resolve or explore this.

I can see the importance of questions to a certain extent. I remember my T had a few for me on the first session as she had only the briefest of referral and therefore a blank canvas in front of her. She has never written anything down in any session apart from my telephone number and e-mail address; or when she has been explaining something that she needed to show me on paper - so to me that part would feel odd because I am not used to it, but I guess it depends on individual styles and methods.

It's difficult to know why she had to gain so much information at once, my personal story is still coming out many years later and it always need to be done in your own time when you feel able. And as for giving her OWN opinions as to how your family might feel and how YOU might feel on your 2nd session - well I can't get my head around that at all. Her place is not to judge but to listen and guide, make you feel safe and supported to continue in this relationship. She has no idea as to your family dynamics and relationships, it takes more than 2 sessions to gain even a small insight into a lifetime of reationships. I would hate anybody to tell me how I felt - let alone someone I had only just met. LL I can see why you were so angry - I would be too, and feel angry on your behalf.

So what to do? My gut instinct tells me to advise you to run away fast; but the part in me that always seeks to understand, would want to go back and get her perspective and tell her EXACTLY how she had made me feel. I would want to know what she thought when she had made me upset and angry and how she proposed to move this forward. If there was no obvious misunderstanding and this is the seemingly bizzare way she works, I would say 'thank you but no thank you' and run away fast, but with my head held high. And that is the important bit LL, you have done nothing wrong - even if there are misunderstandings, you are not at fault, so the inevitable self blame that will follow you around now, should instead be directed at the one who had caused you the distress.

I am so sorry you are finding it all so hard - I know I would too and admire you for being able to post how you felt so well. Keep posting, it's important and certainly not over the top or boring in any way. I am sorry you are scared, that is a horrid place to be. Try to keep grounded with the things that help you feel connected to things you love and that feel secure, go out in the garden (yes summer has finally come to us here), walk ...whatever makes you feel safe. And do keep talking here.
Big hug (((((LL)))))

starfish

((LL)) Wow - I was so taken back by your T that I was stunned. I know that they need to get an outline first so they know what they are dealing with, but it could have been done in a nicer, gentler way. So sorry you had to go through that. I know from my own experience that it was very hard for me to go through that. I felt like I was being cross examined and didn't like it at all. However, it was also good for myself to put a timeline on things.

I know personally, if I had to do that again, I would not choose a t who acted this way. I would run and find me another one. If you decide to go again, maybe you should tell her how you felt and see her reaction. If it is still a bit cold and rough, than maybe you should find another T.

Hope you're ok.

Smiley

LL, I just want to say I'm really battling the urge to delete my post(s) above. I fear I sound really critical, and that wasn't what I wanted to convey. I think you need a lot of comfort right now, and I hope I didn't make you feel less safe here. I think BB puts it beautifully above -

quote:

you need to know that this is in no way your fault, or are you bad, screwed up, wrong or anything of the kind. This seems like it is very scary for you, and it is clear that you are being "interiorly bullied," for lack of a better way to put it.

I was worried about how that interior bullying might be complicating the process. I don't think I said it well, but again BB gets it beautifully -

quote:

Yeah, that is really, really confusing, and a horrible place to feel. So lost, like there is no reality and no place to feel cared for at all. But even if it is you, that doesn't make you bad or wrong, LL. It would just make you for sad reasons not your fault, unable to see or accept the care that might (and I say a very definitive *might* be available to you in this therapist.

I like her emphasis on *might* there - I think the doubts that have come up for you and others about this session are important. I hope you can find a safe internal space to consider them from. Well, I'll be quiet now. I hope you are feeling okay, considering.

J

I just want to echo what BB said in the post above me. If I were in your position, hearing some of this feedback, I know that I would find excuses why I didn't deserve anything that would make me feel better about the situation. I think I can safely speak for everyone that all of us can at least remotely sense the pain you are in about this T and about the whole daunting task of finding a good T that you can trust to help you. So, I know we all want to help you through this rough time, because each and every one of us can relate to what you are feeling. I think that what Jones and Blackbird posted are both invaluable efforts to help you continue your search for someone that you can feel comfortable with and to put a different spin on this so that you don't give up hope. Ultimately, you absolutely have to do what you feel is right for you. Whatever you do, know that we will back you all the way. I hope you are managing okay today..

(((((LL))))))

First I just want to say I'm sorry for what you're going through. I know that horrible feeling of FINALLY experiencing something good, only to feel like its been snatched away as soon as you start to trust it. That's the stuff of our deepest nightmares, and can throw us back into some very dark places with some really bad messages coming at us. Please know that you did nothing wrong.

Secondly, I am very glad you came here and posted about it (never even got close to bored). It was a very healthy thing to do to seek out connection to deal with the pain of this.

I must admit that my first reaction was "run like hell, and do not look back" but I grew very thoughtful after reading Jones' reply. Mainly because I know that for me there have been times where I've really felt a disconnect or misattunement only to realize that it was a miscommunication.

All that said, I saw what, for me, was some very definite red flags. You experienced a lot of responses that minimized what you were going through and what you were feeling. I almost choked when I read that she said Her response, "no you can’t ‘emote’ in every session that’s just not done." Doing just that has been the goal of my therapy. My T has expended a lot of time and effort to help me learn to feel and then handle my own emotions. Trauma victims often experience difficulty in emotional regulation and the ONLY way to learn that is to be in the presence of a caring other who will help you to contain and process the feelings so that you can learn how to on your own. Don't get me wrong, we also have extensive discussions about the feelings and how they fit in with my past and how they inform my present behavior, but my Ts most used line is "take you time" when I'm fighting not to cry and keep talking. It always signals to me an explicit permission to spend some time just feeling. Once some of the intensity is bled off, THEN I can talk.

I also did not like her effort to understand your family. Don't get me wrong. I think there's a place for that, and I know that a part of my healing was to come to an understanding of my parents and to have compassion on why they did what they did. BUT and this is big but, I needed to be able to first acknowledge, express, understand and have validated MY feelings about what happened to me. In a sense I needed to know just what it was I was forgiving before being able to turn to my abusers and forgive. I agree with you that her focus, especially at this early stage should be on you. That doesn't mean you're not taking responsibility for your own behavior, but the focus should be on you right now I think.

Last but not least, her statement that SHE NEEDED your history seemed to put her own needs, however legitimate, above your needs and that is a serious danger signal.

On the flip side, I did want to let you know that my T takes notes every session. I found this a little disconcerting at first because my first T didn't take any notes (she would write them after the session). I talked to my T about it and he was very open and offered to let me see them. After a few more sessions I no longer notice that he's doing it. I know he has a difficult time hanging onto details and he needs the notes. But I've also never felt him move away emotionally because he was taking them.

quote:

Moreover, by having me recount my past in such a quick objective and factual way, she’s robbed me of the opportunity to actually tell my story properly - and whatever feelings I might have about it stuffed away forever.

I do want to reassure you that this is not true. I have been over my story in an iterative process, somewhat of a spiral, going deeper each time. Not a whole lot of new material has come up with my present T, I processed most of the recovered memories and trauma with my first T. But with my present T I was able to go back and finally allow myself to experience the feelings in a way I wasn't capable of previously. You can retell your story as many times as needed and in as many ways necessary until you turn it into something that happened in your past and isn't still happening to you now.

So I think it's up to you to go back for one more session and give her another chance, on the off chance that your first session was a more accurate picture of working with her. Or just move on and look for a better fit. Honestly, either course seems reasonable to me. But please, please, please know that nothing is wrong with you. You are having extremely reasonable reactions to unreasonable circumstances. The wrongness isn't within you, you are not broken or missing something. What is missing is the love and care you should have received.

AG

Eeeek Jones NO please don’t delete your posts! I SO much appreciate what everyone has written here, I am SO grateful to you all for the amazing support and caring you have all shown it has really helped me, like an anchor in reality stopping me from getting lost in my own paranoid fears. So thank you, thank you so much everyone.

You’ve all gone right out of your way to be amazingly supportive it’s had me in tears and that’s saying something! I also want to say thank you to everyone for sharing your own experiences - like with Ts getting background history and such like, that’s let me see that it’s probably normal (though this is the first T I’ve ever had who has done something like that - in fact no other T I’ve had has ever bothered to ask me anything specifically about my past. Maybe it’s down to their training or different approaches?) Hey and as for giving or not giving advice, ALL of it is welcome by me.

And Jones I so much appreciate what you’d written - a big part of me wants it to be my own stuff and patterns that have made me experience this T in such a negative way and I was finding it impossible to be objective about it enough to see how it might have been different from my slanted take on it. I was kind of hoping that someone would in fact give the ‘other side of the story’ so I could step back from my spinning and think about it more rationally.

Blackbird keep your finger off the delete button too! I appreciate what you’ve said too - you have spent a huge amount of time writing that post and you’ve been so careful in the way you’ve written it not to upset me (I wouldn’t have been anyway!) the questions you asked I think I need to answer anyway just to get my head clear.

But the point you made BB that really scored the bullseye is about that fundamental need that’s driving me in the first place - you are right I don’t know what it is to be loved - both because I wasn’t in the past, and because I got a vicious message take up residence in my head as a result of a psychotic experience when I was 16, which told me (and showed me and proved to me) that I CAN’T be loved. Short of the whole world lining up at my door and protesting undying love and caring for me, I haven’t been able to and can’t shift that message one iota in all the years since then. The trouble is that doesn’t stop me needing it all the same. Big catch-22. (I’d like to say a whole lot more about what you’ve written, but I know already this post is going to be massive, maybe I’ll come back in another reply.)

Well I still feel like shit and scared as hell but seeing as how I don’t really feel too much except in a background kind of way (my feelings can be really threatening, but they hardly ever break through and almost NEVER take over my head) I’ve been able to shuffle across the surface of things most of the day.

I’ve been doing nothing but thinking about this session and the T and what’s going on in me and about therapy generally and I think this crappy session has done me in because it’s not just this one T but the fact that I can’t seem to find ANY T who remotely gets me. Since I started looking to go back into therapy last October I’ve seen a total of 8 Ts, some of them for more than one session. That kind of says a lot doesn’t it? It’s not that hard to see that the common denominator is me - if I can’t find one T out of 8 who gets me, then there’s got to be something majorly wrong either with me (well that’s taken for granted) or that what I’m expecting from therapy actually doesn’t exist. No, make that, what I’m expecting of a T doesn’t exist. Just as BB talks about. And that really does scare the hell out of me and fear is one feeling that can break through and take over my head, so I’m in shut down mode now.

It’s so much worse because I could go over my short list again and try and contact the few remaining Ts in this area that I haven’t yet seen - but really what’s the point. I am so so scared thinking that, I haven’t felt this terrified and threatened by the blackness and paranoia always lurking in my head for a very long time. It’s like I’m reliving every experience I’ve ever had of staring at the fact that I can’t be liked, loved, wanted, accepted - that I’m such an alien so deformed internally so bad that I’ll never be ok, will always have to live in total alienation pretending to everybody that I’m normal and that I think and feel the same as everyone else and that’s not so not at all. Born bad. Ha that just reminded me of yet another negative about this T - it was the one negative thing I picked up on in our first session, where I was explaining to her that I ended up with this belief that I was born bad and she asked oh so is everyone born bad and I said no only me and she spontaneously bursts out (literally) with OH narcissistic! It’s a measure of how bad things have been inside my head that I barely reacted to that, just sat there bemused because it was such a shitty totally uncalled for really negative thing to say that I couldn’t believe she actually meant it so I kind of laughed it off and got all defensive because of course I’ve got those kinds of judgements in my head already - that it’s so egotistical and self absorbed to be so consumed with your own failings to think that everyone else sees you as bad etc etc. So I can do without stupid Ts saying stupid things (no matter how well intentioned, if you can call someone telling you you are narcissistic for believing you are bad as being ‘well-intentioned’ - more like totally insensitive and uncaring I would have said in fact try really fucked!!!!) hm a spark of anger that’s good, somewhere inside I’m getting a tiny sense of standing up for myself again.

Trouble is how long can you stay angry when the reason you are angry is because you’re not getting something you need, and the longer you don’t get it the harder it is to stay angry the quicker you slide all the way back down to self hate self loathing paranoia and black alienation.

Oh hell I’m so sorry this is just a ramble. There’s so much I’ve been holding onto for decades and I’m being driven to get it out to talk about it to tell someone and not having a T who remotely gets me is just blocking it and making it worse it’s like I’m ready NOW to spill, all I need is someone who wants to hear what I’m really saying, who wants to understand ME and who is caring enough to let me feel all the garbage and pain that’s been inside for 50 years that’s desperate to come out - that I just can’t get to by myself. It’s not possible for me to feel the stuff to talk about the things that have happened to me without that special support - no matter how much I know I need to do it. Aaaarrrgggghhh!!!!!

Little break there. Sorry.

My instinct tells me (as Mayo eloquently put it!) to fire the cold-hearted b***ch. Actually cold hearted is exactly how she came across, totally unmoved by me or my story or my tears. I have to say in her defence that she wasn’t disapproving nor did her voice change from being uniformly well-modulated except at the end when she said that about therapy not being for me, and her tone didn’t change much either - except when she said ‘obviously you CAN feel’ - it was sort of like, I don’t know, different - accusatory but that’s a little bit strong, definitely like someone who doesn’t believe you in the first place and ‘catches you out’, and also at the end where her tone became a bit exasperated, impatient (fed up). I think it was the relentlessness of her questioning, just going on and on never mind how it was affecting me that started to do me in - that her voice and tone DIDN’T change, like for instance when she asked what are you crying about - it was said in exactly the same way as if she was asking me, where was I born. Sorry I was saying, yeah my feeling is to get rid of her, I can see already that her approach is just going to harm me more than help me - BUT I have to think that it’s probably true to say that she didn’t really KNOW how I was feeling about it all - to her I must have appeared all in control and not terribly bothered by it, so that the things I’m writing about here that affected me so badly she probably didn’t see the same sort of reaction from me - so she didn’t take any of it as seriously as I was expecting. I could also say, well she doesn’t really know me, but that’s bollocks because we’d already talked about how important trust was and how the relationship itself between her and me was the really important part of the therapy - and I fail utterly to see how firing questions at me about my background without accepting that it was going to be difficult if not outright painful can do anything to inspire trust and confidence. I think she would have achieved so much more had she used this session to do a bit of trust building in a ‘getting to know you’ in the here and now way, and leaving the background gathering for a future session. After all, what does she need all that detailed info for? In order to make connections - ah yes you are reacting like that because your mother father brother grandmother etc did/didn’t do x or y or z. And that’s exactly what I don’t need because I’ve bloody well made all the connections already.

Oh Deeplyrooted - how apt! I’m actually glad you posted that quote, because I remember exactly how I felt when I wrote it, and yes I’d kind of forgotten that, I DID go to her in absolute good faith, it’s so easy to get caught up in the ‘badness’ of my needs and wants and to beat myself up for having seen her as such a paragon after the first session, as if I’d taken something that wasn’t mine, wasn’t meant for me… yes, it was her job to reassure me and to let me know what was going on, not for me to sit there trying to work out what the hell is all this about. I wish she knew that though.

Strummergirl - it did seem like they were two different people that’s exactly how I experienced it. I think in retrospect though that she was the same in both sessions, it’s just that in the first session it was more like general chat ABOUT what I needed and how she worked and therefore she had no need to respond directly on an emotionally giving level to me. So what in the first session appeared as being confident and easy with her role as therapist in the second session turned into this authoritarian no correspondence will be entered into persona. The difference I’m now realizing was that in the first session I wasn’t needing any kind of emotional support or intuitive understanding, just to be listened to - so was able to experience her on a ‘normal’ human level, as a very nice person - but in the second session I went in with needs and wants all gagging to be heard and validated and suddenly the ‘nice’ person turned into a detached uncaring authority figure.

And Kashley what you said is just about what I got out above - you’re spot on - the first session seemed cohesive because I was saying the ‘right’ things - being in ‘normal adult’ mode, all reasonable and open to what she was saying. And thanks for pointing that out to me - yes she DID say it would be good for me to challenge her - so wtf happened to that in the second session? She obviously didn’t expect to be challenged quite so early in the piece lol. But interestingly in her blurb it says that she ‘can be quite challenging’ - a bit of psychobabble jiggery pokery going on there methinks.

Amazon you’ve got it dead right too! That’s exactly how she came across, like a psychoanalyst not a therapist. That’s what scared me, like I was some specimen to be observed and monitored in that awful detached cold way uugghh.

I have to say I don’t mind a T taking notes - rather that than they forget important stuff. Though it did contribute to my feeling that I was undergoing a pysch evaluation rather than that she was genuinely interested in my past. And actually I’m not sure she was terribly interested. And Starfish as you wonder, me too - I have no idea why she needed to get all that info in one fell swoop without getting my take on it - after all the therapy is supposed to be about ME and I already know the facts of my past, it’s the feelings I’m in therapy to deal with. Shaking head here I’ve got so many issues with this woman…. Starfish thanks for that validation - of all the things that bothered me, the bit about telling me what was going on in my family and telling me how I felt, those things are the real red flags. That seems to be how she is, dishing out statements as if they are cast in concrete facts - and from my point of view that is really destructive. I will take your advice (and that of others as well) and go in and see her again, with the express intention of talking about all the stuff I’ve been going on about in these posts - I seriously doubt that she will even think to see that she has mishandled me, but I want to know how she responds to the issues I’ve got with the second session - if by some miracle she responds in the right way (whatever that may be) - well miracles might happen. In any case I don’t think I could just not go back I would always feel as if it was either my fault or my misunderstanding or my warped perceptions so I need to be sure just how much of it is down to her (at least in the important bits).

Smiley you’re right - I suppose if she needs to know this stuff for her purposes fair enough, but yes she could have done it in a much better way. It’s so hard, you never know what a T is going to be like until you actually start with them, a first session is just not enough, even a second session and by the time you are sure they are not for you you’ve invested time energy money and worse, emotional input that really costs to withdraw time and time again. I am now so defeated by this therapy lark that I’ve got defences so high and so thick that any new T I might see is already fighting against the odds. Sigh.

And Jones again, now that I’ve spent so much time thinking about everyone’s posts and replying - I don’t suppose you have a vacancy in your T schedule do you lol? You sound like you could be just the T for me! I’m sorry I haven’t replied sooner as I know how you must feel about posting what might be construed as laying blame - which I don’t experience your post as doing in any way at all! (I bet there’s quite a few others also who feel, hm LL could be being a bit over the top here, can’t she see that the T probably really meant x or y or z) That’s one reason I did make myself post actually because I recognized, without being able to do anything about it, that my reactions were almost overreactions, excessive, out of proportion to what actually happened (well, ok, to a degree…) and that maybe someone else could point out the possible alternatives to my highly emotional interpretations. You managed that beautifully - thank you!

Have to say on the subject of blame though, that I took umbrage at her comment about ‘we don’t do blame in therapy’ (not her exact words) because for me I absolutely NEED to blame my family for what happened to me. I’m stuck in this it’s ALL totally my fault - which started with them attributing blame to me in the first place - and I have this almost knee jerk reaction that I MUST blame them - put all the blame I’ve been carrying all my life back onto the people who should be carrying it. (For blame, read anger - for me to get genuinely angry I need to see the other person as genuinely in the wrong…). I wasn’t really talking about blaming the therapist - I couldn’t actually, even if I wanted to.

Actually my extreme reactions to this T are a whole lot more to do with therapy generally, I guess it’s because I thought I’d finally found a T who gets me, and also I desperately NEEDED to find a T who gets me - so to be faced with the idea that the wonderful T I thought I’d found actually wasn’t wonderful at all - yeah so much desperation and too many expectations and it’s all crashed and burned rather spectacularly.

What you’ve said is actually really affirming - because no matter how black I’m feeling about this T the fact remains that I did see her as good and nice and friendly and all the rest, and she did make me feel like she was listening - you are right, I went in with very high expectations (though curiously on my way to that session I was feeling quite pessimistic, almost like a sense of doom that I couldn’t get rid of or place, but thought oh well she’s a good T I’ll be able to talk to her about it… hmm).

Everything you have said is right on. I’d actually like so much to think that it’s all overreaction on my part - but I have to be aware that I have a tendency to wipe out legitimate and justified perceptions on my part in favour of maintaining the other person as good, when in reality they aren’t. Talk about confusion!

You have written a real eye-opener there Jones, with what you have said about communication. The way you describe how I could have spoken to T about the feeling different bit - absolutely right on! I wish I really could talk like that, be on the ball enough to think clearly enough and string such a brilliant sentence together. That’s such a perfect way of addressing the issue. Pity the feelings screw it up so much! But I’ve learnt something valuable there - in fact more valuable than I’m even aware of I can feel things going on in the back of my head assimilating this - how to talk to people effectively, the value in NOT acting on feelings but using them as a guide to getting what you want, all sorts of things. Sigh, wish it would just slot in and I could miraculously and effortlessly come out with stuff like that. How do you manage it? Did you learn to do it or is it something that comes naturally to you?

Ok I am exhausted now but I have to say, thanks to you guys and the fact that I have been able to rabbit on and on here and get my thoughts out to such a supportive group of people, I am actually starting to feel ok, even optimistic. (Shh won’t say that too loudly!)

I’ve taken so long writing this that I don’t think I have the energy to post to anyone else’s threads so please accept my apologies in advance if you think I’m ignoring anyone - I don’t mean to! Also sorry about the disjointed nature of this post, it’s literally taken me hours, stopping and starting and thinking and reading, so I reckon it probably doesn’t make as much sense as it could

Thanks again everyone big hugs to all of you

Lamplighter


LOL I was just about to post this when I saw your post AG - thank you so much. Everything you have said also speaks directly to me - it is so clear and you’ve articulated really well the red flags I was struggling to pin down. What you’ve said is exactly how I see it too - and that’s what’s so confusing - because I’m starting to shift to the - I’ve overreacted, misinterpreted, projected my own stuff onto her - stance, but keep falling over those same red flags. And actually you’ve pointed out something that was bothering me obscurely at the back of my head without my knowing exactly what - that she ‘needed’ to do this fact gathering exercise - yes it’s putting her needs in therapy before mine - I hadn’t really seen that, just sensed that in flatly requiring this session to be about fact gathering despite my openly opposing it, she was being authoritarian, controlling the therapy - regardless of what I wanted or didn’t want. Hm.

AG the way you’ve described the feeling aspects of your therapy is so helpful and clear and well written would you mind if I copied your post to take with me next session? I would really like to refer to it if the discussion with my T actually does last long enough for me to try and explain to her yet again what I’m wanting from therapy and your words are unassailable!

Ok this time I really will hit the post button!

Oh no (((( Blackbird ))) I’ve left it minutes too late. Please please don’t feel bad or scared, oh I’m so sorry I wish I’d posted sooner. I don’t suppose you can repost it can you? No I guess not - I really wanted to say more to your post so much. I’m so sorry you felt you had to delete it. Hell I even copied over Jones’ post in case she deleted it but I didn’t think to do that with yours. Please don’t feel bad you’ve been SO supportive and great! I’m going to post this now in case anyone else decides to delete. (Don’t suppose you could retype some of what you’ve deleted, from memory, maybe PM it?)

LL,
Please feel free, I hope it helps you to express what you need. I also think it could be a very useful barometer. If she's the type of therapist who has to be in control and have therapy go HER way, she'll probably not be very happy that you're getting support and input from other people. I'm probably incredibly biased, but I must admit that a therapist's reaction to your support system and your obtaining information from places other then them is a very telling signal of whether or not they're humble enough to know they don't know everything. If that's true, then I believe they'll be much more open to hearing what you actually bring to them and not what they think they should be hearing.

AG

I'm on my phone, so this will be short, but I just have to comment on the same part of your post that BB quoted. My jaw literally dropped when I read that. Even if that was the only bad thing she did in the session, that's more than enough to kick her to the curb. That is one of the most insensitive comments I've heard, especially from a therapist! I also agree with AG - I think judging how a therapist responds to finding out about a client's other means of support is a very good gauge of their character as a T. Too bad I don't have the guts to be that open, but I do see the benefit of it! Ha.

I agree with BB. I was dumbfounded when I read that comment. Totally insensitive, inappropriate and rude. I'm so sorry.

I agree with AG as well. It would be interesting to see how she would respond to your outside support. Very telling indeed.

BB - ohhhhh!!! Your post was so beautiful - measured and thoughtful and compassionate - I learned a lot from it, it said so much of what I wanted to say! Esp that lovely insightful stuff about the need here for LOVE. Of course I strongly relate to the feeling of NOT wanting to say anything potentially even remotely hurtful to LL - but what a shame to lose that great post. I'm sorry, BB, that your own internal critic was so hard on you here.

LL, there's so much I want to say and I'm not sure I'll be able to catch it all. But I'm so, so glad & relieved my posts were helpful rather than hurtful.

I'm also extremely sorry to read that you went through the hell of a psychotic experience at such a young and fragile age. I watched a dear friend go through this at 21, tried to support her, it was one of the most frightening experiences of my life, to say nothing of how deeply scarring it was for her. I can totally see that it would have left you with some very painful memories and messages.

And I can HEAR that vicious message that you can't be loved - even in the way you write "and showed me and proved to me" - this sounds like the message trying to make itself stronger, trying to insist that it's the TRUTH, and not just a message. Well, guess what, Message, I've got a message for YOU! You ARE a message - and you may be strong and tough and scary, but I actually don't believe you. There IS no 'proof' that anyone is unloveable, there is no proof that our LL is unloveable, and Lamplighter, all you write on this forum actually proves just the opposite. You are giving, kind, insightful and warm. And LOVEABLE. You are an important part of our community.

Now, this T... I don't know, I have such mixed feelings about this for a few reasons. One is that I have a long history of putting up with a*holes and not even noticing that they're a*holes. So factor that in to my reaction. Another is that actually, some of what you write about this T reminds me of my T, who has been quite 'challenging' in lots of ways. The worst for me was something I wrote about on here - when she said she thought I was having a fantasy relationship, and that people who did that lie to themselves a lot. That sent me into a TOTAL spin for weeks, it was horrible.

But the tricky thing is that going through that and repairing it is a big part of what actually taught me to hold on, keep the messages at bay, check things out, communicate. (And yes, this is VERY much a learned thing, not a natural thing.) I learned that actually she is sometimes wrong, and she's okay with that - that she wants to have the freedom to try something out, to see what's true or not - and she wants me to have the freedom to say Nope, you're off the mark, or Nope, you're TOTALLY off the mark, you're mad. She has even given me permission to get angry - and while she doesn't always accept my reaction at face value (she points out when I'm contradicting myself) she always uses the reaction to discuss, listen, find out more, and so on. And I know I can rely on her to give her honest feedback about how something is striking her.

The thing is that experiencing this kind of provocative stuff from the feeling that she dislikes, disrespects and/or doesn't care about me would be absolutely unbearable. From the assumption that she is working to try to help me gain insight, that she wants me to be strong, healthy and to speak for myself - that she believes I CAN speak for myself, whether I feel like I can or not - it is quite liberating. But still tough. And I reckon probably not the right method for a lot of people. But I have learned so much from it, got so much more strength to say my piece and hold my ground even when (especially when) things threaten to go into a spin.

I think having the freedom to interact like this has a lot to do with finding a way out of the blame stuff. I was really interested in your comment - "for blame, read anger" - because I wonder if it would actually be useful to you to separate those out a bit more. I think blame requires that one person is wrong and responsible for harm and the other right and not responsible. Those positions are absolute, they are fixed, and they are all about culpability and punishment. My husband and I get into this situation all the time - trying to assign blame, figure out whose 'fault' it is. It doesn't go anywhere.

Anger is a bit different, I think. Blame wants to have someone punished, anger wants to be heard. Blame carries a big stick. I'm interested that you say this: "for me to get genuinely angry I need to see the other person as genuinely in the wrong".

The problem with blame, as I see it, is that it can get invalidated by new information. You learn that someone who ran a red light was racing a very sick child to the hospital, for example. If you're blaming them for being reckless, you might find that's no longer appropriate - they were trying to do what was safest for the kid. But you might still feel angry that your life was put in danger too (you were about to cross the road). Angry is your feeling - it relates to your experience of having been scared, and it's a valid feeling regardless of the circumstances. You can choose what to do with it (act, speak, think about it, let it go) but it's yours and it's real whatever the circumstances. Blame, on the other hand, seems to require 'putting it on' someone else - KNOWING that they were wrong. If you find out mitigating information it leaves you in the awkward position of having to put the blame somewhere else (someone else? yourself?) - because that big stick just has to do its sticky thing.

Does this make any sense? Have I got too carried away with my analogy? This is just one way to see it, maybe you & other people see the difference differently. I'd like to hear other thoughts on this. But I wanted to explore this idea a bit because it seems really central to the feelings you're writing about. I knew you were talking about blame in relation to your family, not the T - but I think the question might be current with both situations, maybe.

Got to go - take care, LL - I have every faith that you are actually 'doing' therapy and healing through all this process, with or without a stable T. I know you need that security of someone you can trust, though.

J

BB thank you for your comments - and Kashley and STRM too - it makes me realize that I’m accepting a lot of negative stuff as a matter of course I guess I’m always surprised when people also see things negatively because I always expect to be told oh that’s no big deal. Getting the replies in this thread has been SO good for me - has helped me believe just a little bit, that maybe I’m not overinterpreting things and that really quite a lot of what went on with this T really was as bad as I experienced it.

STRM I’m so sorry I didn’t reply directly to you before - I meant to thank you properly for what you said and your support, and it was your mentioning about taking a history that helped me see that maybe it wasn’t such a strange thing for her to do. Also I’m glad you too reacted like that to my T’s use of the word ‘emote’. Though I can see from your comments that maybe that’s how my T is viewing it too - that feelings come up as a byproduct of other things going on in therapy, whereas what I’ve been clear about in ALL my dealings with Ts since October, is that I need my feelings to be the sole focus of the therapy, and the other stuff to be incidental. So I’m getting a better idea of what I’m up against in trying to explain to Ts what I think I need. Hm.

AG thanks so much for letting me use your post - I hadn’t actually intended to refer to all of it because I didn’t want to show her anything negative that others might have said but now that you’ve said what you have I think you (and Kashley and STRM ) have a good point there - if she can accept that I am talking about therapy outside of therapy and getting support, without getting defensive or trying to tell me I’m wrong or even (as I fear she might) ‘tell me off’ for daring to say negative stuff about her that isn’t ‘true’ then that’s got to be as you say a pretty good barometer. Thanks so much for that suggestion, and for your continuing support.

Aw thank you so much Jones for telling my message to sod off! And thank you once again for taking the time to reply in such depth and detail. I wish it were as simple as being just a message - but it’s more than that it’s what I actually experienced about myself emotionally, experientially, and cognitively as fundamental truth and reality that’s why it’s so hard to shift - it’s my sole experience of myself and informs and pervades every aspect of me. You’re right there is no proof that someone is unlovable, but equally there is no proof that someone is! Once you get into the I can’t find any proof that I am lovable divide, there is no way to get out because external proof is always suspect (you get left, rejected, treated in a less than lovable way - whatever tentative proof you might have found gets blown right out the water!)

It’s why I’m so fixated on finding a T who can understand that the very first basis of therapy for me is having someone who is totally openly warmly and caringly on my side, who is going to accept every single aspect of me just as I am without expecting me to change or understand anything - so I can use their reflecting me as acceptable even dare I say it as ‘good’, as the beginning of that ‘proof’. If this is love then so be it - I don’t personally think so, I think I’m looking for the good mirror in a T to replace the bad one in my head so I can have all my stuffed away bad wrong unacceptable feelings reflected as perfectly ok and innocent no matter how apparently dysfunctional or socially unacceptable they might be.

Hm Jones, the way you describe your T actually makes me want to crawl into a corner and hide! She sounds like the kind of T that I most definitely do not want - and I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you at all - I think that having a T like that and getting so much good and growing so much because of it is a testament to your own strength and amazing ability to be open to change.

Taking your example of her allowing you to be angry and not taking your reaction at face value - that sounds to me like the very thing I really do not need at this point - it says to me that the T is in the business of trying to get you to understand what’s going on in you that creates the anger, with a view to sorting out it’s causes and seeing how the thing that’s sparked it in reality isn’t how you’ve initially perceived it. (The comment about your contradicting yourself as if how you feel isn’t her concern but rather she is trying to get you to see the faulty reasoning or subjective perceptions causing the anger). All very laudable I have to add and as you point out, it would be unbearable if she did that without your trusting implicitly that she is doing that because she has your best interests at heart - it’s getting that trust and faith and knowing she is really there for YOU doing what she does solely to benefit YOU - that’s the tricky part for me.

But I’ve done that to myself all my life - endlessly questioning why I’m feeling something (especially anger) what in me is causing it how can I change in order not to respond with spontaneous feelings that are obviously coming from me rather than being ‘caused’ by something in real world etc. And the end result is feelings stuffed away because everything I feel is caused by me and not by reality. Now all I want is help with being able to express whatever I feel, no matter how unreasonable or irrational or wrong it is - I’m so desperate for the relief of feeling what I do feel without having to rationalize it or understand it or me or how I’m seeing things incorrectly or use it as a means to change me or my world view. As far as I’m concerned I already have all the intellectual understanding I need to modify, change, understand things - AFTER I’ve had the luxury of actually being allowed to feel my own experience of things.

So a T who is in the business of using what few miserly feelings of mine actually do surface in therapy (as opposed to actively encouraging whatever I feel to surface), to point out to me or to try and get me to see how I’m being dysfunctional or irrational in order to change - just feeds straight into the ‘there is something wrong with me for feeling this in the first place’ set up. I really really do not need at this point to be challenged, I’ve done that to myself all my life (as have most people in real world!), now what I need is total acceptance of me AS I AM especially my feelings - if I can feel accepted and accept myself, then I’ll be able to start looking at my part in what’s going wrong in my life and try and change it. But otherwise it just all perpetuates the ‘it’s all my fault I’m being bad and doing wrong’ set up I currently have.

And it does sound very much like this latest T of mine belongs to the ‘discourage feeling for feeling’s sake and focus instead on using whatever feelings do surface to point out failings and dysfunctional perceptions in order to change’ school. So my sense that she can’t be trusted to just accept what I’m feeling and thinking without jumping in, in an attempt to make me see how it’s something wrong with me or faulty reasoning on my part is a BIG factor in my negative perceptions of her.

And your explanation about anger v blame - really does make sense to me. I think I tend to use the word blame when I get defensive - when I feel I’m in the wrong about feeling bad and just need to offload to stop the self hating crap from eating me up for daring to respond negatively - that’s when I’m already stuck in self blame and no-one out in real world validates my feeling instead makes me feel like I’m in the wrong so I get all snarly resentful and desperate to find something genuinely objectively ‘bad’ to justify my bad feelings. That’s what set me off when this T started being sympathetic to my family - immediate resentment on my part that she was almost ‘taking sides’ against me and favouring the very people who screwed me up in the first place! But how you describe anger is so much more empowering - that’s where I’m trying to get to, to just feel it without NEEDING to have a legitimate or objectively justifiable reason for it. Thank you again so much for your words.

Right ok another extremely lengthy post! I’m not sure what’s going on with me right now but I have to say I feel a WHOLE lot better about all of this and that is down to you guys listening to me and keeping me going with your fantastic support and really insightful replies. THANK YOU!!!

Lamplighter

Lamplighter, for me two things absolutely nail it:
"narcisistic" and "what are you crying about"

I absolutely would not feel good about seeing a therapists who is so openly judgemental and seems to forget that "sensitive and empathic and non-judgmental" is her job description.

Well I wonder whether she had a really bad day or is it just her normal self as a therapist. I think that really was not nice (putting it softly).

Lamplighter, I'm just wondering, out of the 8 therapists that you check upon so far, it is possible to pick, I don't know, one or two, that may be worth checking again? Maybe things would feel a little bit different. Just the odd suggestion...

Oh, I wish you could meet my T (not that I would want to share him with anybody )

Thanks Amazon and BB for your replies. I just realized i forgot to logout before so still being logged in have the chacne to say thankyou (he he and to rabbit on some more).

Amazon are you sure you don't want to share your T lol?

Yeah i get what you're saying - since posting before i seem to have gone back to being in a real state - thinking i'll be ok talking to this T on Monday then the memories of what she said and how she said it keep hitting me - mainly the narcissistic comment and the telling me how i feel and the sympathy for my family but especically the 'emote' thing - that's really got me reeling because it feels like she's telling me quite categorically that she has no intention whatsoever of helping me with expressing feelings. I don't know why but that one makes me feel the blackest of all.

BB i do understand what you mean though it's totally alien to me seeing as how i've never had anyone be caring enough like that to get to the point where i fall in love with them and want a proper relationship. Though I can imagine i would be prime candidate for just such a 'transference' (not sure that that's actually the right word to use there). I think you're right though that a T can't meet all the needs - I see it more as the therapy laying the groundwork for me to be able then to go out into the world and get what i need, even better, that i won't need anywhere near as much as I do now so my relationships with people can be a whole lot less one-sided. Just rambling here. I am so pleased you feel that after a year you are actually seeing positive changes. Got a lot more i'd like to say to your post but will come back later as right now i should be off doing normal life things and need to sort my head out a bit as i really don't know what the hell is going on in me at the moment. Whatever it is, it's not good!

And please BB don't feel afraid that you're hurting or upsetting me or anything like that, i just so appreciate your taking the time to reply so kindly and with such honesty about yourself.

Thanks again Amazon and BB for replying

Lamplighter

LL

I've been thinking about your situation all day and just can't get my head around why your comment could possibly be seen as narcissistic. I mean a narcissist is someone who is poles apart from anything you describe, concerned only with themselves, often in a very grandiose viewpoint as well. People who feel genuinely bad about themselves do not therefore fall into that category, your feeling of badness would probably be equal and oppposite to any felings of narcissism. I just don't get where she was coming from with that at all and would, if you are planning on seeing her again(!) definitely challenge her thinking.

So the thought that she might not want to discuss feelings with you, is bound to hot hard. I mean, that's one of the hardest things to do in therapy isn't it, so for someone to seemingly deny that as an option is bound to be scary. It seemed to me as an outsider, that she had HER agenda that day, questions, forms etc and that you crying or countering what she said almost almost got in the way. Did it feel like that LL?

And you say that you want to feel, you sound ready to feel, so you definitely need a T that will let you do that and not sit in judgement when you do. My T says there's nothing that I can say or do that will make her feel any different about me - LL I wish that for you, that any badness you express will be accepted with love and compassion, just as it is by us here. I would like to know if there's anybody who DOESN'T feel bad about themselves on this forum in some way, I am really shocked that the T was so surprised, I'm sure it's a really common thread. I guess what I'm trying to say is, LL IT'S NOT YOU ((((((LL))))))

starfish

BB

Oh I definitely agree, that we all deserve love and acceptance. It's just hard for me to understand that some people aren't bad - my T has spent years trying to get me to shift the blame off me onto the one that perpetrated me, to see that I was not the one who was bad. I really resisted it and found it easier to carry any blame myself. But what happened to me was bad - I know that now - and he who did those things was very wrong - might that not make him bad, even at the time? I don't know what I think, I really try not to think about him more than I have to.

I wasn't saying that being narcissistic was bad, I am sorry if I gave that impression. We all deserve love and understanding - of course. There is though a difference I think between being narcissistic and having an inevitable amount of narcissism in us, just because we are human though. I supposed I was just surprised that LL's T came to that conclusion, when to me what LL was voicing to her was far removed from being narcissistic.

Oh hope I've not offended anybody please tell if I have,

starfish

I just wanted to chime in on the narcissism conversation. My father was diagnosed (by proxy) with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but the full on disorder is very different from someone having narcissistic tendencies. I have done some reading on it to grasp a better understanding. But, I'm in no way qualified to say that this is the truth, so make of it what you will.

It is true that there is such a thing as "healthy" narcissism - these are the self-centered tendencies we have that drive us to seek happiness and satisfaction, but it's not so excessive that we disregard the feelings of others. I am being dead honest here - everything (literally, everything) my father does is for his own benefit. A true narcissist almost never shows up in therapy, because they refuse to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with them. External forces are always the things that cause their misfortunes. They lie, manipulate, guilt, and do whatever they need to to get what they want.

That being said, I actually have so much more compassion for my father since I found out about narcissism than I did before. Granted, it is very, very hard to be around him, but when he lashes out or completely disregards me, it's easier for me to brush it off. From what I've found out about narcissism, it stems from a rough childhood, which my father did have. Deep down (way down there), there is such an intense fear of being rejected that people like my father seek such a high status and admiration from others that they can try to ignore that fear. It's odd, but sometimes I see the very core of my father as being something like a wounded puppy. But the outside is quite the opposite!

So, all of that was a fairly long-winded way of saying that there is absolutely no way you are narcissistic, Lamplighter!!! That's why I was so shocked that this T said that to you. She has probably never worked with a true narcissist, because there would be no way she would ever have said that to you if she had. We all HAVE to be selfish to some extent. And we all are. Even people who volunteer hours and hours are fulfilling their "selfish" need of happiness in helping others. It's when someone's selfish actions are hurtful to others that the line can be drawn. And even then, I think it would have to be a persistant problem - as in, they would have to be repeatedly doing selfish things that hurt others for it to be considered narcissistic.

kashley

You have put this very well indeed, I think that's what I meant about the being narcissistic (having a N personality) and the difference between that and the inevitable human tendancy towards our own selfish interests. And yes, I agree there is a difference. And of course, like BB said, they nneed understanding and support. But I know from personal experience that this is hard. It is so true kashley, when there is an explanation for behaviour, we can be far more compassionate towards that person, even if we still dislike the behaviour being done.

BB you wrote

quote:

But I do believe that no one is without some kind of hope, no matter how "bad" they may really be acting, until a final end decision has been made, against the good

I so agree with you, we cannot make that final judgement and it is totally not our place to. I ususally strive to see the good in everybody, struggle with certain people's behaviours in life and always hope that there is scope for change, am truly shocked when people do such terrible things.....

I am really perplexed on the subject of badness though. I would have to say that we ALL do bad things at one time or another, like the narcissitic bit in all of us I suppose, we are not exempt from negative actions. But I think I would have to say that some (very few) people are bad, that their actions are so severe and premeditated against other human beings, not to be otherwise. I know, and this has taken me years of therapy to realise, that if I don't believe this, then all the terrible things that were done to me I could keep disregarding and brushing off as unimportant, because 'they weren't so bad' - when they really were. Blaming myself was easier than realising the blame lay elsewhere. That does not mean that the person who did this is without forgiveness - I just don't know if I could, I have never thought about it, or want to really. But God's forgiveness fortunately is not anything to do with us. I wonder what others feel who have been hurt in similar ways? It would be really helpful to know.

LL sorry for digressing on your important thread. Have you made a decision about going back yet? Do let us know and we can root for you (whether you do or not anyway we will

starfish

Hi LL -

Just want to say two things - one that I might have misrepresented my t - her challenging me doesn't usually come after any expression of anger; actually she has a few times invited me to feel anger when I haven't really identified that in myself, directly given me the ok, encouraged me not to shut it down too soon by intellectualising. And if I do express some she may just acknowledge it - lately she has been telling me it's ok to be angry about her leaving, but I can't really, because to me it seems like one of those can't-be-helped things, so I find it hard to accept my anger.

Her challenging comes in at other times - more about my cognitive ideas about things (self-limiting) than feelings I guess. All of this is sort of by-the-by, I guess I just wanted to say it's not all one way or another, and she's responsive to my needs, which is the main thing.

The other thing I wanted to say - I will save for your new thread!

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:


STRM I’m so sorry I didn’t reply directly to you before - I meant to thank you properly for what you said and your support, and it was your mentioning about taking a history that helped me see that maybe it wasn’t such a strange thing for her to do. Also I’m glad you too reacted like that to my T’s use of the word ‘emote’. Though I can see from your comments that maybe that’s how my T is viewing it too - that feelings come up as a byproduct of other things going on in therapy, whereas what I’ve been clear about in ALL my dealings with Ts since October, is that I need my feelings to be the sole focus of the therapy, and the other stuff to be incidental. So I’m getting a better idea of what I’m up against in trying to explain to Ts what I think I need. Hm.

I guess I should clarify what I meant when I said that feelings come up as a byproduct of what you are talking about or dealing with in T. I don't mean that it should not be ok to go into T with feelings that seem to come out of nowhere and that you can't connect to a particular event or outside event. Not at all. I meant that often times in T, feelings are going to come up as a result of talking about past or present events. We are human and feelings are going to be part of the process. From what I'm hearing you say, you have these feelings, but you feel "wrong" for having them because you aren't able to connect them to any particular event. If I am misunderstanding, please accept my apologies.



But I’ve done that to myself all my life - endlessly questioning why I’m feeling something (especially anger) what in me is causing it how can I change in order not to respond with spontaneous feelings that are obviously coming from me rather than being ‘caused’ by something in real world etc. And the end result is feelings stuffed away because everything I feel is caused by me and not by reality. Now all I want is help with being able to express whatever I feel, no matter how unreasonable or irrational or wrong it is - I’m so desperate for the relief of feeling what I do feel without having to rationalize it or understand it or me or how I’m seeing things incorrectly or use it as a means to change me or my world view. As far as I’m concerned I already have all the intellectual understanding I need to modify, change, understand things - AFTER I’ve had the luxury of actually being allowed to feel my own experience of things.
When you state that you have these feelings and they seem to be spontaneous and coming from you rather than being caused by something in the real world it reminds me of some things with myself and my T. I often have feelings that will surface that I don't understand and I can't figure out where they are coming from. However, I have a dissociative disorder and those feelings are usually coming from a dissociated part of self. That is why I don't have all of the information and sometimes I just get the feelings. My T always says to me that the reactions, feelings and automatic responses that I have wouldn't be there if they didn't have a reason to be there and they are coming from something in the past whether I understand what it is or not. She is extremely careful never to suggest to me what these past events were that caused the feelings and reactions, but she does validate that the feelings are there for a reason. An example: I have had times where T and I seemed to not get along. I felt like she was blaming me, accusing me or saying that I was "doing it wrong". Truthfully, she wasn't saying that at all, but sometimes when she says something a certain way it triggers old feelings and beliefs and she will seem like my mom. Once she seems like my mom then I tend to filter everything else that she says with that belief in mind. I slip right back into those old thought patterns, I pull away from T and things can go downhill fast. Fortunately for me, my T understands that this is all a function of the trauma that I experienced and she recognizes all of it as self-protective. So, while it is difficult for both of us, she knows that it is something that she has to work with rather than try to bully through. If she tries to bully through it, my defenses will come up even more and we will get nowhere fast. You see, I know all of this on an intellectual level and I can rationalize and talk about it all day long. However, stored in the cells of my body and places of my brain where trauma is stored are the automatic reactions that take place without me even having to set them into motion. So, the goal is the get to those parts of the brain which we do with sensorimotor and somatic techniques. My T will ask me to notice how I am pulling away from her. How do I experience that in my body? I might answer that I am turning away from her or that I can't make eye contact. She acknowledges that and says things like, "I like how you are turning away from me to protect yourself and that you aren't looking at me because your body perceives danger." We will sit with that until my body catches up and realizes, Hey wait a minute.....what I was expecting to happen (danger) isn't happening. Then my body starts to relax and the automatic reactions soften and in that way my nervous system slowly but surely realizes that it is no longer in danger. I can intellectualize all day long and know in my mind what I need to do to change, but it doesn't matter. It is all automatic and stored in my nervous system.



Lamplighter

I can't remember where I came across this blog or if it was on here or not, but in case it wasn't I have found this blog to be so helpful in not feeling so alone in my "I am wrong, I am different" type feelings. http://emergingfrombroken.com/

Anyway, I'm not sure any of that made sense or will even be helpful in any way, but I wanted to try to explain what I meant.

STRM thanks for your clear and really interesting reply. (It really does sound like the sensorimotor therapy would be perfect for someone like me!)

I’m sorry about my earlier comment that you quoted - I have to say in all the posts I’ve been making since this abysmal session with the T I have been in a really resentfully defensive state and so a lot of what I’m writing is probably coming across as snappy and snarly - I really do not mean to criticize anyone about their therapy or how they see things.

What I meant was that Ts tend to focus on stories or narratives or whatever first, and that if feelings come up in so doing (incidental), then they ‘deal’ with them, whereas I’m wanting to do it the other around - start with whatever is going on in me in the moment emotionally, and the narrative connections will then maybe emerge spontaneously.

I too have gotten myself trapped in the need to know what I’m feeling about - to have an awareness of the cause - but have realized that I’m in a permanent state of bad feeling that’s a huge well of every feeling I’ve ever had and never been able to express - so I’ve come to accept that actually I don’t need to know why I’m feeling something, just to feel it is the goal. Connections and understandings can come later.

I have to say I’m not dissociative (well I don’t think so) but what you’re describing does sound very familiar. I can see really clearly sometimes that the way a T appears to me - if I’m in an emotionally charged state - is often not who the T really is, that I’m seeing judgements and interpretations that actually don’t come from the T but from my own head. And I feel REALLY threatened a lot of the time, that’s definitely coming from me. Unlike you I never know who the person might be - sometimes I think it’s all of them rolled into one - it’s something I expect would happen (being able to identify who T becomes in my eyes) if I could actually find a T who was willing to go along with feelings-first work.

Thanks for being so open about your experiences. and thanks for the link to the blog. I’ll go and have a look at it now.

Jones I’m going to apologize to you too - when I reread my reply to you I realized that snappy snarly defensive resentment was at work - it sounded like I was criticizing your T and the amazing work you’re doing and I really didn’t mean that at all. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply especially when you are going through the whole awful awful situation of losing your T soon. I completely forgot about that, I’m so sorry. I hope you are doing ok.

Starfish, Kashley, Blackbird - I really want to comment on the whole narcissistic concept, but right now I’m a bit obsessed with trying to sort stuff out related to seeing the T tomorrow so if it’s ok can I put my 2 cents worth in later?

Lamplighter

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
STRM thanks for your clear and really interesting reply. (It really does sound like the sensorimotor therapy would be perfect for someone like me!)

I’m sorry about my earlier comment that you quoted - I have to say in all the posts I’ve been making since this abysmal session with the T I have been in a really resentfully defensive state and so a lot of what I’m writing is probably coming across as snappy and snarly - I really do not mean to criticize anyone about their therapy or how they see things.

What I meant was that Ts tend to focus on stories or narratives or whatever first, and that if feelings come up in so doing (incidental), then they ‘deal’ with them, whereas I’m wanting to do it the other around - start with whatever is going on in me in the moment emotionally, and the narrative connections will then maybe emerge spontaneously.

LL, please don't apologize. I didn't take your post as snappy or snarly at all. I was just concerned that you might have misunderstood what I meant because I wasn't very clear to begin with. At any rate, I am mindful of the place that you are in and I think that you are entitled to feel defensive right now.

Your last paragraph that I quoted is exactly how my T works. She is much less interested in the narrative or the "what" of the trauma than she is in helping to identify how it is experienced in the body now. We definitely started with the "what is going on now in the moment emotionally" and a bit of the narrative has come later. Even when dealing with the narrative and talking about a particular memory, we very much stay focused on the here and now and how my body is reacting to telling the story.

I hope that you can find what you are looking for in a T. I truly believe it is out there, but I know how hard it is to find. I don't think you are being the least bit unreasonable in your list of what you are looking for.

Hey LL,

No need to apologize at all. You actually didn't snap or snarl or undermine my T or my work with her - you were very respectful. You just said how you were feeling about what you needed, that what I was describing sounded scary and wrong for you. Those feelings are ABSOLUTELY valid, and they don't hurt me - they are about YOU, and I see them as really healthy and useful. Your expressing them helped me understand more about what you want and need.

I wanted to clarify how my T works because I can hear how important it is for you to have good information about what happens in therapy for other people. I wanted to be sure you know that in this case, this relationship, it isn't either the feelings or the analytical/cognitive/pattern recognition/interpretation stuff. It's both for us, and often the interpretations bring up feelings for me (like ARGH! You're wrong!, for example ) which we then work with. But actually often it's all blended together.

I don't say this because I think it's what you should have. We are in different situations with different experiences and needs. But I just thought the information about one style that's out there could be useful.

Thinking of you today - I really hope this session makes things easier for you, not harder, whatever the outcome is. Let us know, of course - I'm on the edge of my seat.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamplighter:
I so hope this makes some sense maybe someone can see something positive in this that right now I can’t.

LL,

Your post makes complete and total sense to me. And your complaints seem perfectly reasonable. If nothing else, the fact that you are able to get your thoughts and feelings down in such an extremely articulate, well composed manner while in your current state of mind says a lot about your mind; namely, it's not quite as bad as it feels.

If it were me, I'm pretty sure I would've been sitting in my car after that session, punching the steering wheel and calling that woman all sorts of really unflattering things at the top of my lungs. I think there's professional distance, and then there's just cold, unfeeling, unresponsiveness. Sitting there taking notes while you melt down is pretty weak in my opinion. YOU know when you're not being heard, it's not YOU with the problem, it's the friggin note-taker with compassion who's got the problem. I'm glad my T doesn't take notes at all. That would bug the shit out of me.

quote:

Originally posted by scaredtoriskmyself:
I am totally lost by her comment that you can't "emote" every session and that isn't what therapy is about. I would agree that the goal of therapy isn't necessarily to "emote", however it is often a byproduct of dealing with difficult stuff and if she isn't comfortable with that then she needs to get into another field.

No doubt. That's a strange one. It might be worthwhile to ask her to clarify what she means by this.

quote:

If anyone has had a pysch evaluation that’s exactly what it was like - some cold bored Pdoc sitting there totally uninvolved and detached writing out notes on his little pad as he asks question after question, sitting there waiting while you break down because it’s so painful telling your ‘symptoms’ and he just sits waiting for you to pull yourself together so he can carry on with his fact gathering.

Few things can make a person feel more hopeless and helpless than a psych eval. I remember asking a psychiatrist what he thought about repressed anger being the cause of symptoms. I swear he looked at my like I'd asked him for directions to Pluto.

Trust your instincts and feelings on this one. Just because someone has a degree and "experience" doesn't mean diddly if they lack compassion.

Russ

Russ thanks so much for your comments. You’re dead right when you say

quote:

Just because someone has a degree and "experience" doesn't mean diddly if they lack compassion.

I’d started looking for Ts who at least had experience because what I needed I reckoned the less experienced ones couldn’t help with - in fact I now see that experience itself is not enough (Strummergirl has hit the nail on the head - as usual - in another thread when she says that for a T to be able to help on the level I’m looking for - and I’m guessing quite a few others are too - the T has to have gone through their own therapy otherwise they just don’t get it).

*Sigh* which makes finding a new T twice as hard.

I’ve read from your posts that you’ve been seeing your T for quite some time now (couple of years?) Is he compassionate? From your earlier posts I got the impression that he was a bit detached and cold? How do you find it working with feelings with him? My ex-T was male and I decided that a male T wasn’t going to be so good in the feelings department so I just wondered how you, a male, find working with a male T? Do you think it would be easier with a female? Sorry for all the questions, just really curious to hear a male point of view on all this feelings stuff.

Thanks again for your post.

LL

p.s. just read your thread on Two week break and realized that you’ve touched on some of the things I’m asking here. Will post more in that thread.