He still seems defensive.

TN,

I'm sorry things are still feeling so unsafe and disconnected. I can relate as I'm in a position where I feel completely unsafe in T's space and with her in general. We have resorted to working strictly with the unsafe feelings and helping me to find ways that I do feel safe with her. Perhaps it would help if you and your T spent some time just following your defenses and your body and trying to help you feel safe around him and in his office?

(((TN)))

I like STRM's recommendation here. I'm sorry that it was so disconnected. You have reason to be fearful, reason not to trust, because of your experiences. I really get how hard it is to have faith that he is who he says he is. What always helps me when I have these sort of sessions (and I used to have a lot of them...had one just recently) is just to identify, even if I can only do so intellectually, how I heard/interpreted what he said, how it made me feel, etc. I think it's really important that your T know, for example, that it felt like he was more interested in justifying/defending himself than hearing your feelings. With something like this, which is mostly based on your internal workings based on horrible past experiences (though also triggered by your current T's choices), it is kind of pointless for him to try to point out how safe and trustworthy and protective and strong he thinks he is. It would be more useful to work from YOUR feelings and experiences (which are the central cause of the sense of unsafety, not to say that you are to blame for them, but just that the fully justified reasons for your feeling unsafe have a mostly internal source) than to try to disprove them by illuminating the current external environment. The fact is that it IS different than before. But, the fact is also that you are experiencing it as not THAT different, not ENOUGH different to be safe. And that was the more important conversation for him to have with you...the one about how you're experiencing it. I hope you can tell him that.

((((TN))))
I'm so sorry today felt so disconnected with your T. Reading through your description of what happened, both you and especially Yaku already pointed out what my impression was:

quote:

(posted by Yaku)...it is kind of pointless for him to try to point out how safe and trustworthy and protective and strong he thinks he is. It would be more useful to work from YOUR feelings and experiences (which are the central cause of the sense of unsafety, not to say that you are to blame for them, but just that the fully justified reasons for your feeling unsafe have a mostly internal source) than to try to disprove them by illuminating the current external environment.

And then one of the things it sounds like you wish he would have said was this:

quote:

(posted by TN) Let's talk about how things like this in your childhood may impact how you are feeling today blah blah...

I'm sorry if I'm reading into this way too much and/or incorrectly, but based on things you've said before, about how cruel your mom was to you, it just seems like your present-day fears (with both old T and new T) could be at least partly based on how your dad didn't protect you from your mom. I just know the last T I had would have asked me, so what does this remind you of? And would have totally taken this back to past trauma. I really wish your T would make this connection. Or if that's not the right one, then whatever the right one is. I'm sorry it didn't happen today.

Hugs,
SG

Yaku, that's it. You put into words what I felt inside that I needed from him. To work from MY experience of how this feels and how it can be made to feel safe for me.

The problem is.... I know we have to work through this but I don't even know what that means. Work through what and to what end? Where are we going and what is on the other side that will made this better for me? I know we have to work to make me less afraid of his wife being so close to my therapy space but how? I have no idea what that looks like. Will I just get up one day and say "hey it's great that T's wife is so close maybe we can have lunch one day?"

Then I think... what if I didn't know who she was and I decided to make an appointment with her to discuss nutrition? And since nutritionists don't abide by the same ethics as T's we can talk about all sorts of things, like her home life and dh? Would he tell me then who she was? Or would SHE have told me she is married to the guy next door and have me find out that way? Would that have been better for me?

SG... hi it's great to see you here. Thanks for your comments and you are right. This does come mostly from the past. It had been so puzzling to me because I have absolutely NO romantic/erotic interest in my T at all. I am not attracted to him in any way aside from the attachment aspect. I was much more attracted to oldT. So I did a lot of work and connected it to my dad not protecting me from my mom, oldT not protecting me from his nosey/bossy/intrusive wife and also another attachment figure I had who was important to me for many years whose new girlfriend treated me horribly and made so much trouble between us that I lost the relationship from my life. So there is a lot of transference mixed in with my fears of having his wife in the office.

STRM... I'm sad to hear how you are struggling in some of the same ways with your T. It's so hard to do therapy with so much fear and mistrust.

Sadly... he told me he was not being defensive and he was not really overtly defensive... but he was more disconnected or misattuned to me and he talked too much and did not listen which means to me he was at a loss for dealing with this and was groping for straws. I'm sure he has never dealt with this before as his wife is only in the office for the past 3 months and he is practicing for 20 years there in that office. It had to happen NOW, with me there.

Thanks for the comments. They really mean a lot, especially since i have something to think about and an idea for another approach that may work better for me.

Hugs
TN

quote:

but he was more disconnected or misattuned to me and he talked too much and did not listen which means to me he was at a loss for dealing with this and was groping for straws. I'm sure he has never dealt with this before

Hi TN,

I'm wondering if his loss for how to deal with this is due to his emotional involvement, having to face the implications of his decision to bring his wife into the practice. He has to have strong emotions regarding this decision because it involves his wife, his practice of 20 years and all of his patients, yet he appeared disconnected. I think maybe he was trying so hard to keep his emotions out of it that he wasn't connecting with your feelings as well.

I know this is such a painful, triggering situation for you and from my experience, it sometimes takes many, many sessions to work through a triggering issue.

I wish I had some good advice for you, but I do agree with everyone else that has suggested for you to go back and center the discussion around your feelings. As you speak about why it's so highly triggering, it may help you heal some of the wounds from those past relationships which caused the initial pain.

take care,
Summer

(((((TN))))))

Sorry to hear that the session didn't help you too much. Sometimes T's just don't know how to help exactly. I'm in the middle of reading "The Impossibility of Sex" and it sounds like this might be the case more often than we knnow. The author often had moments like that, not quite sure how things were going to unfold or what it is that would be helpful for someone to hear.

Do you feel like he's not hearing how painful this is for you? Does it feel like he's choosing her over you? Just throwing some stuff out. Wish there was something I could say but hopefully you will hang in there and keep going back.



Liese

quote:

I think maybe he was trying so hard to keep his emotions out of it that he wasn't connecting with your feelings as well.

Hi Summer... yes this could be true, although my T is never very emotional about anything. Or at least he never shows it. I think he was so focused on convincing me that he would protect me and that he could keep me safe that he didn't hear anything I had to say or even LET me say it. I think he was at a loss on this issue because he has never encountered it before. He is so intelligent I cannot believe he gave such little thought to the impact of having his spouse in the office and their decision to keep their relationship a "secret" was more harmful than anything. I makes me wonder what else is being kept a secret. It reminds me of the saying... it's was not the crime but the cover-up! Secrets are usually found out and then repairing that is worse than actually just being up front.

TN

(((((TN)))))

You sound so defeated. There have been times when I've thought the same thing, that my T was too smart to have missed something. But the truth is, that often they come from things from their point of view and they are really not clued into us unless we are honest with them about how things impact us. And God knows how much thought they actually give something.

Not to make excuses here because this is so incredibly important to you. It's just that I'd hate to see you give up now. You've fought too hard and suffered too much.



Liese

TN,

you know I am rooting for you, girl I know how hard it is when it feels like you're having two different conversations. You just want him to acknowledge how awkward you feel, he just wants to overwhelm you with evidence of WHY you shouldn't be feeling that way. I've been there, and it goes nowhere fast. Even if the real situation isn't likely to change, your frustration about it deserves to be heard. I hope you guys find a way out this disconnect...

Well my session today went better than last time, although once I was away from session and T I got really angry at the circumstances of him having his wife in that office. I'm still stuck there and we didn't speak much about it directly. And I still hate his chairs although I've been sitting in them, very reluctantly. Today I wore a dress to therapy because it's so warm here and that makes it inconvenient to sit on the floor.

T was running late but to his credit he gave me time on the other end and I got an hour today. It felt like I was there for 3 minutes. He greeted me nicely and then I asked him how he thought our last session went and he sort of smiled and said, I thought it was good but obviously you have another opinion. I said "you would be right on that". I told him that he spent too much time trying to convince me he was safe and would protect me and he didn't give me the time I needed to talk about my feelings on this. I also told him that he was telling me he was not feeling defensive while he was pushing his chair AWAY from me, like he needed space. He said he really didn't feel defensive and if he pushed his chair at that moment it was probably because his back was bothering him and he leaned back. He also said I am free to talk whenever I want to. I told him he was on a roll and it was difficult and it's also really hard for me to point things out in the moment when they happen. I cannot pay attention to what he is saying and how I'm feeling at the same time. I told him he wants me to do/feel things that I cannot and then I feel like I'm a failure and frustrating him.

He told me I'm not a failure and I have actually come a very long way. He said that he knows I'm testing him but some of the things I do are quite courageous and he believes on some level I'm feeling safe with him or I would not dare to say what I say to him. He said thta I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. Testing, checking, testing again. I told him that lately I am so anxious when I come to see him that I cannot even walk up the stairs I have so much anxiety sucking the air out of me. He commented that yet, I still come, I show up each time and I face him.

I told him that he said we could work through this but I don't even know what we are working through and where we are going with this. He said let's start with me being able to run up his stairs and walk in to see him with no anxiety. Right now that seems so impossible. We then talked about his protecting me and I told him that protecting me from oldT does not count because he does not give shit about oldT and is not emotionally involved with him so it's easy. He admitted all that. I asked him about how soundproof the wall is. He said his wife would have no reason to want to know anything about me. We again talked about how oldT and his wife behaved in that office. He said that his wife would have no curiosity about who I was if she saw ne in reception and I told him I dont' want her to know me or who I am or that I am his patient. he didn't say anything to that.

He again told me that HE is the one who keeps me safe and that old T did not keep me safe. I told him that I thought that if oldT cared for me it would keep me safe and I also struggle with doing something wrong... that by working to make oldT care that I ruined the therapy and made him want to get rid of me. He said oldT had no idea how to do psychodynamic therapy. He looked at me and said... it's really sad because I know you really loved him and he was so afraid of that. So I said, I don't know why he was so afraid of me, I never did anything, I never tried to violate his boundaries and was never seductive towards him. So my T said that oldT was afraid of his own feelings for me and he does believe he cared deeply for me and he just ran away from it. So I looked at him and said... so what will you do if that should happen here again?

He said that when you work closely and for a long time with someone, when they allow you into their lives and share so much of themselves with you and you are there to support and take care of them in this intimate relationship then love will happen if you are doing it right. So I said, you mean like an agape love and he said, love is love, he does not classify it. So I said how would you feel? and he said that he believes if someone comes to love you through therapy it's the greatest gift ever. It's a very precious gift they give you and he welcomes it. He said that this is why you do this work. This means everything... oh the money is okay, that's fine but THIS means so much more and it's what keeps you doing this work. That was really profound to hear from him. I know he has previously talked about some of this with me but maybe I just needed to hear it again. He was then interested in the various kinds of love, as described by the Greeks and so I told him about the ones I could remember and he asked me to bring something in about it so we can discuss it! I know he has his blind spots but when he is good he is REALLY good.

We sort of left off there. He asked me if I could change the time of Monday's appt to earlier and told me a little bit of why, which really helped me to know. He shook my hand warmly and wished me a good weekend.

So despite some of the intense anger that comes up from time to time regarding his wife being there (she was not there today) I do know he is a good T and he is willing to hang on during the really rough patches. He told me that the "content" in therapy is mine and I can talk about whatever I need to but that the process is his area and he said we still need to work on the Foundation (the relationship) before we delve too deeply into things and this is for my own benefit. I know he slows me down at times and won't let me jump ahead or jump around w/out some thought to what we are doing and if I am ready for it. It's nice to know someone is minding the store while I'm going off on tangents and getting mad at him.

He said that I am having trouble trusting him because my abuse history is so inconsistent and unpredictable. I told him I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. He said that's because I would go for a period of time as a child when things were just fine but I could never predict or understand when that would all change. So even though things are going okay with him, I'm waiting, waiting and watching for something bad. That's the hypervigilance kicking in.

But I do know that something is pushing at me wanting to get out and the rage connected to it is very scary for me to look at. It feels annhilating. And it's all being triggered pretty badly by the threat of his wife being in the office.

Thanks for reading
TN

((((TN)))) I'm so glad it went better, but sorry there is still so much anger there. But, there is a lot to be angry about, especially for that little kid inside who always, eventually, had the other shoe drop. Your T sometimes reminds me so much of my own, except for that he is stronger with organization and boundaries than mine is (but mine has his own strengths there). However, his positive feelings about that "gift" is something my T would probably express too, but maybe less eloquently than yours did. Have you thought of asking if he would at least have a noise machine going during sessions? I actually don't find them useful, but my T seems to, so I'm sure a lot of clients feel safer with them, no matter who is in the next room.

((((TN))))

Your OldT really did have bad boundaries. He just didn't get it. Even if his wife was involved in the business, it shouldn't have been apparent to his clients.

I hope you can find a way to feel the intimacy that you need with this T even though his wife might be close by. Hopefully she won't be much of a presence when you are around and you will be able to focus on you and your T and what is truly important.



Liese

Hi Yaku... thank you for responding. The anger/rage is so scary for me because in my FOO it led to violence and so last night I was really feeling scared that if my rage leaked out in session it would destroy me, T and the relationship. So I sent a rambly, distressed email to him late last night. I told him my fears and that I needed some contact with him. He sent me a really wonderful response. The man rocks his emails!

He reassured me again that I am doing what I am supposed to and of course there is rage connected to what we have been discussing and it would be okay to let some of that out even if it's directed at him. It won't destroy our relationship. He also said that it won't harm him or scare him. Then he ended with reminding me I could email or call him if I needed anything. He really is so kind to me.

The noise machine... yes.... oldT used one but not this T. There is one near another office in his suite that another T uses. I will ask.

Liese... I too am hoping she won't be much of a presence around the office. I seem to relax a bit more when I don't see her nameplate stuck to the door. She must only put it up when she is there. So each time I walk in... I look at that door to see if the nameplate is there.

Thanks.
TN

I really enjoyed reading his comments about the therapy process, relationship, letting T into your life and it being a type of love.

Glad the wife wasn't there - it kind of lets you breathe fresh air when she (and in my case my oldT) isn't around.

Somedays

Hi SD... I forget you have to deal with your olddT being around when you see childT. I'm glad you enjoyed reading what my T had to say. He has been pretty steady in the face of my pushing him away and being so angry about things. Underneath it all, I know I am with the T I am supposed to be with. He is good for me 99% of the time. I look back and realize how traumatized I was when I first saw him. He truly saved me. He allowed me to hang onto him for dear life when I couldn't even see straight.

How are you doing? Hope things with your T are going smoothly and you are feeling connected.

Hugs
TN

(((TN)))

I know I've been quiet lately but I wanted you to you how happy I am that your T is staying close to you and not letting you push him away. It is heart warming to hear what he says about love in the therapeutic relationship. I hope you have a relaxing weekend.

Always so good to read about the repairs you have with your T, TN- you are doing such good, brave work.
big hugs,
Beebs

Hey Tn, thanks for asking. Things are rocky.T has let me down badly and she has to do some major repairing - she has caused some major attachment injury for me. I have had 2 weeks of a breakdown that is nearly as bad as when youngT terminated me so T's timing is terrible for me. Currently I am in a mental fog / time distortion thing and I can't breathe until T and I have this out on Tuesday. I am terrified she is terming me and I think she thinks I am terming her.

Yes - seeing youngT is difficult - yet I wouldn't bear it if she left the practice. I still get to see her even though the pain is unbearable.

This week I saw childT and I was crying (2nd time in 9 yrs) in front of her for the hour and I glanced over and saw YoungT walk by and cried "i can't bear to see her today' and child T said - turn your chair and we will both look out the window. ChildT also said after that she was trying to time our exit so we avoided her. We did. Except.....get in the lift and someone was walking to the lift - my boy held the door open (I wouldn't have on this day) and youngT's client shared the lift with us. I looked up and saw youngT walk down the hallway and time STOPPED. through the people, distance and talking between my boy and the client - my teary eyes locked onto youngT eyes - it was just seconds but it felt like aminute - and she smiled at me. I put my head down and held my tears back. It was like i had already been beaten up that day and then along came someone and punched me one more time for good luck.

Even childT later said to me that she thought "we had escaped her today".Child T said to me that I can try and to learn that I can survive after moving on from someone I have loved and been attached to. That is true - because so far it feels like life and death.

TN - your comments
------------------------------------------
He has been pretty steady in the face of my pushing him away and being so angry about things. Underneath it all, I know I am with the T I am supposed to be with. He is good for me 99% of the time. I look back and realize how traumatized I was when I first saw him. He truly saved me. He allowed me to hang onto him for dear life when I couldn't even see straight.
---------------------------------------------

Absolutely DITTO my friend. Absolutely the same. Perfectly said and totally my situation. Thank you for writing that. At this point in the universe right this second - i feel that 1 other person truly experiences the same issue as me. I just wish I wasn't going thru that 1% right now.

Thanks and sorry for hijacking.
Somedays