(((Kashley)))

I am sorry you feel sad. I have a problem with feelings, I think I push away most of the time. (Not sure, but I think I do that) then it crashes onto me after awhile, the stuff I pushed away for so long, and I will spend some long nights "trying" to cry, because I need to cry so badly. Finally after some hours of thinking aimlessly I will sometimes begin to cry, but it doesn't stop very soon or make me feel better. It's just crying and crying that leaves me tired and depressed and sad the next day. But it is better than the irritable anger that I end up inevitably taking out on my family if I can't cry for some months. I don't know what the answer is. It is hard to feel certain emotions spontaneously and naturally. Except the anger at...what? I have to stuff the anger, or it will hurt others. My P and I starting to try to identify feelings lately- I'm so grateful for this help, but it is very confusing for me, so I guess, I know how you feel. Having Feelings or Needs = very dangerous, life-changing place to go. Safer without them, nobody gets hurt- especially my spouse, kids they almost need me to not have feelings or needs.... but then life (for me) is without meaning or purpose or direction, decisions so very hard, motivation impossible...but having feelings and needs associated with feelings or the body = selfishness maybe, to me. Still working on trying to figure this one out, as you can see.

How are you faring, just now?

quote:

I'm having so many doubts that anything will ever change for me, and I feel too tired to go through such an emotional process when everything in me is saying that I'll just end up right back where I started. I'm actually afraid, petrified even, to like whoever my new therapist will be, because I don't want to get attached. I want to save myself the hurt of eventually being left on my own again.

Take for what it is worth, but it sounds like you are actually afraid to continue experiencing what you, in fact, are already experiencing. Which is none too pleasant, so that is certainly understandable. I guess I am wondering...what do you have to lose? Could it be better without the therapy? Without the feared attachment that may happen? I am in middle of intense attachment to my P, and yes, Kashley, I will not lie...it is quite terrible to experience at times. Better lately, my P seems to start to understand more of me, in some way that I do not fully comprehend- so it's not living in hell anymore. But still, very painful. But, I would rather have the hope of feeling again, than no hope of ever waking up. Even if the hope is a pipe dream I would rather have it than the agony of apathy that is not me- I have endured for most of my life. I hope this helps.

BB

Hi Blackbird,

A lot of what you said pretty much hits on why I am feeling the way I am right now. Well, I can't say I'm feeling as sad, but it's more below the surface now. I could feel myself suppressing it. But I still feel stirrings of feelings underneath the surface. Earlier I had a sudden bout of tears, but they were gone within 5 minutes. It's frustrating though, because I can feel an urge to cry a river that's way down there. But it's there.

quote:

Having Feelings or Needs = very dangerous, life-changing place to go. Safer without them, nobody gets hurt- especially my spouse, kids they almost need me to not have feelings or needs.... but then life (for me) is without meaning or purpose or direction, decisions so very hard, motivation impossible...but having feelings and needs associated with feelings or the body = selfishness maybe, to me.

Yes, I can relate to this a lot. Not having feelings or needs does make decisions and motivation so hard. When I'm not "feeling," it's almost like I have a fogginess in my brain that keeps me from pinpointing exactly what I want and need. But it's also what keeps the feelings at bay, because when my mind is completely clear, everything bubbles up to the surface. And, over time, I have sort of started to learn that I have associated selfishness with raw emotional needs.

And yes, I am very afraid of experiencing what I am now, but from feeling it before, I know it's much worse. I only had a very limited amount of sessions with my last T, but she was great and helped me start to unearth things that I'd never recognized before. But I felt so miserable most of the time in between sessions. I got a taste of what it's like to actually have someone listen, and it was something that I craved once I got a small crumb. There were only two times that I had a session once a week. Other than that, we had sessions every other week, and the time in between was torture. And I absolutely hated feeling so dependent on her, because I knew it was what was making me miserable. I know those dependent feelings would have been even more intense if I had weekly sessions with her. So I am so, so hesitant to start up again, even if it is with someone else. It's so hard for me to just function when I am living week to week like that. And when I start feeling things, it increases that difficulty ten-fold.

Ugh. I feel like I'm talking in circles.

Nope you are not taling in circles. You ar making perfect sense. Oh, Kashley, it is very hard.

quote:

it's almost like I have a fogginess in my brain that keeps me from pinpointing exactly what I want and need. But it's also what keeps the feelings at bay, because when my mind is completely clear, everything bubbles up to the surface. And, over time, I have sort of started to learn that I have associated selfishness with raw emotional needs.

But those raw, emotional needs are probably what makes you- YOU. We somehow learned it is selfishness to have those raw emotional needs...to need another? To think about us? How slefish...right? We should be the givers, right? always, and at all times! Even when we
have nothing left to give? Even when we have been completely emptied?
But it's not always true. There are times when it is appropriate to give, and times when it is completely appropriate to take. I hope that if you approach individual therapy, you will remember this when the going gets tough. It is appropriate for you to TAKE in this scenario of therapy. It is what you need. It is what your therapist is trained to do, and wants to do. (If you get a good therapist who knows what he/she is about) It is what my P is constantly trying to get me to remember, and has become the focus of the therapy, I would say. Save yourself lots of money, and lots of pain Kashley.. and TAKE. That is my best advice!!

Let me know how you take this response....

BB

It occurred to me that what you said about the crumb and living week to week like that making it hard to function...yeah that is a bear. Awfully hard to deal with, like becoming an infant who completely lives for the next time someone might walk by and poke her tummy or give a smile. Who cares about feedings? It's the smiles we live for... yeah it is so hard, such a torture.
Can't really help you here.

BB

Thank you so much for the support and advice, BB.

quote:

It is appropriate for you to TAKE in this scenario of therapy.

Intellectually, I know this. But my body thinks completely differently. I read somewhere recently where a person described a split between his intellect and the sensations/perceptions of his body. That is so much of what I struggle with. I KNOW so many things, but at the same time, I know nothing!

Regardless of that, though...I still worry about taking too much. I think I can convince myself to take, but I know that there is a limit somewhere in me. I don't know where it is yet, but even just reaching out to find another therapist makes me feel one step closer to reaching it. I feel like there is a boundary line, and if I take too much and cross that boundary, everything will be taken away. In my everyday interactions, if someone does something thoughtful or even just a nice gesture, I get so worried that I'm going to "use up" all of the niceties that they have for me. It's like I'm trying to put it all in a bank account and let it build up interest. But I never feel like there will be enough in there to supply me with what I crave. So I'm too scared to take anything out.

Maybe I act and feel this way because I am, as you say, emptied. And I'm avoiding doing the same thing to others...I don't even know.

I don't know anything about splits... I have heard the term. Can you enlighten me? I am interested because I seem to function on one or the other...intellect OR emotion...not sure if that is "normal" or not.
what do you know/think about this?

BB

I don't know much about it, either. I have only briefly described that kind of struggle with my T, but we didn't really go into it. So, I guess I'll try to explain more about what the "split" feels like to me. For instance, when I first got names and numbers to start calling about a new T, I was absolutely petrified. But I couldn't exactly pinpoint why, because intellectually I know that this is a perfectly normal, expected kind of thing. Besides, how else would a therapist get patients? It's ridiculous, and in my mind, I know this. But I almost get to the point of being physically "stuck" where I can't hit the send button on my phone. I just sit there, staring at it. It's incredibly frustrating.

Also, I am fairly emotionally numb, I guess. I mean, I feel emotions, but only those that result from material kinds of things. Like if I get a good grade on a paper or something. But if my parents say/do something hurtful, I don't feel anything anymore. The same goes with my friendships. When I was in individual therapy and we were in our final few sessions, I would have a day or two afterward where I completely felt my emotions. But they were all of the bad emotions. Or, those were the only ones I could really feel. And I felt them so completely that I had trouble even thinking about why exactly I was having them. As in, I couldn't match up a thought/memory with an emotion I was feeling. It was a total flood.

In therapy sessions, I was never able to connect with my emotions. I guess I didn't feel safe enough yet. So everything my T was telling me, I was processing intellectually. I was noticing my own patterns, my parents' patterns, etc. But it was almost as if I was solving someone else's puzzle, but not mine. I wasn't connecting the words to myself or the appropriate emotions. But afterward, I guess I would receive the flood of emotions that would have been appropriate in session. By then, however, it's too much for me to connect with my intellect. I hope that made some sense. It's still something I'm trying to figure out.

K,

I just saw this post as I'm on my way to bed. It's really late here, so I need to get off here but I will reply to you tomorrow. I'm sorry you're struggling today with feelings. I thinks it's normal given what you're up against with starting therapy one-on-one again. You know what you're jumping into this time. Hang in there! I'll read all your other posts in the morning and respond in more detail then.

MTF

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Kashley, BB and monte!!! You have all given me "ah-ha" moments. What you all have written has made a lightbulb go off in my brain. I experience this exact thing almost every time I see my P and then afterwards. My thinking brain is in the P office, then when I leave and am processing stuff after the appt. my emotional brain kicks in. I am flooded with so many emotional thoughts and reactions, I can hardly tolerate it. Many times I end up calling my P feeling like I need him but can't explain why.

This is all defintely going to be discussed this week with him.

Thanks again for all of you insights. I wish I was more insightful myself and could offer help to everyone else, but mostly I am still learning and taking from everyone else here. Sorry.

emogirl

Hey there, Monte!

I like your description of the surge at a concert. It is so true. And the backlog you speak of...yes, that makes sense. I am actually more worried to feel things more than ever, because if I started to feel something without much prompting, I think the next "surge" I feel is going to be very difficult.

I never connected to my emotions in my therapy sessions except for one time in a particularly hard individual session. I was sitting there, and I started to feel tears pricking at my eyes, but I kept sitting there, staring at my lap. The feeling kept getting stronger as my T was saying more and more, and I actually started to panic at the thought of crying and showing emotion to her. This was toward the end of the session, so I was sitting there having a small panic attack. By the time she was walking me out, I was still dizzy, clammy, shaky, and my limbs were tingling. Afterward when I realized that I had an anxiety attack, I was so surprised. Not only because I have never had an attack before (and haven't had one since), but also because I got close to showing emotions to my T! It was a very, very scary thing. My defense mechanism had stopped working.

Emogirl -

No need to apologize for anything! I was pretty darn clueless about this not long ago, too. But I can completely and totally relate to feeling like I have an overwhelming need for my T following each session. Sometimes I would feel this way immediately after, or it would take a few hours. Or even a day. But *every single time,* I would be feeling so many emotions that I didn't know what to do. I couldn't function, and I felt like I would never ever be able to make it a whole week until our next session. But, invariably, within a day or two, I would disconnect from my emotions again and was able to make it through the rest of my week.

I am interested to hear how it goes when you talk to your therapist about this. Will you keep us updated?

Monte

I too love your emotions at the rock concert analogy. How true, just when you least expect it, the singer starts playing a number that totally gets to you in that raw place deep inside and before you know it all the emotions that ever were, rise up on that surge you talked of. For me that's a 'oh my gosh, where's the nearest emergency exit?' cue and I have to get out of the concert hall as fast as I can.

kashley, I know what you mean about the flood of emotions afterwards - I always say to my T it's much harder after the session than during. The next day is the worst for me - I am really emotional and head in a spin. Wouldn't it be great to have a next day de-brief as routine? I have great difficulty showig my emotions in sessions, but always feel the next day as if I could.

starfish

Last night, I was watching a movie with a friend...it wasn't exactly sad, but touching in a way. Anyway, it made me start to cry. I was able to button up enough that my friend never noticed, but after I went home, it was like a dam burst. And I was trying to think of what exactly I was crying about, but I couldn't. I just had this overwhelming need to cry. It was pretty miserable, considering I couldn't stop, but I didn't even know why I was so upset in the first place. I eventually made myself stop, and I tried to disconnect to the part of me that wanted to keep crying my eyes out, because I just couldn't deal with it anymore. It's so odd to me how polarized it makes me feel. Even ten minutes after I had stopped crying, I don't think I could have begun again even if I really wanted to.


Starfish -

I always wished that I could have a session the day after one, because I am feeling the most, and I feel like I'll be able to get more done. I guess that's why therapy takes a long time.

Seablue -

quote:

I wonder if actually feeling in therapy instead of thinking is something that ever happens completely. My T talks about how we intellectualize in my sessions and it would be helpful if I could let myself feel more.

I think that the ultimate and eventual goal is the integration of both thinking and feeling together, but not one or the other. If we're able to think while we're feeling, we can not only explain what we are feeling to our T, but we can also explore the why's of what we are experiencing. That's what I imagine, at least.

Hi K,

I was going to respond to your original post yesterday but have struggled to know what to say. I too have a hard time with feelings. I have come to realize since starting therapy that I have stuffed my emotions since I was very young. I learned as a child that my feelings were unimportant and my fears were even laughable, so I quit sharing them entirely and consequently stopped identifying with them. So I'm sure you can imagine that starting therapy was hard because it's set up so that you have to get in touch with your feelings, even if it doesn't happen until the day after your sessions , as some of you have mentioned in some of the threads above. I'm kind of different than most of you though. I can be quite emotional a lot of the time, and will cry at Disney movies, at church, if someone talks about something highly emotional, etc. It's getting better as my depression is coming under control with medication, though. My problem is that I can't really identify what I feel; I can't name my emotions other than joy (which is extremely rare), anger, sadness and fear. Oh, and shame. But I didn't even know what shame was (identified it by name only this last year, really), only that it felt bad and I tried to avoid it as much as possible. I feel like I've lived a life void of emotions and feelings, like I've been dead inside and I'm tired of living that way. What kind of a life is it when you don't really live?

So therapy has been really painful. Feeling an attachment to someone I don't know and CAN'T know has been one of that most heart-wrenching things I have experienced because it draws out all kinds of feelings, and I hate that I can't even name or identify them. And the shame I feel keeps me locked up inside so that I don't want to figure this all out, either. Pain is so intense and so overwhelming that I'd rather just run from it than face it. I have found myself standing in the shower for 45 minutes with the warm water running out and I've spent almost the entire time in tears just sobbing over my issues with my T. Sometimes I don't know why I'm crying, I just am. Sometimes I force myself to stop and like you I couldn't force myself to start again if my life depended on it. It's strange. I wish I could give you some great answers or advice, but I'm just as confused as you are about all of this feelings stuff.

I do know that as difficult as therapy is, and as hard as attachment issues are to go through and deal with, it is all going to be worth it in the end. I really love my T, and as much as it hurts to know that one day I'm going to have to leave her, and that she can't be what I want her to be or give me what I want her to give me, she is giving me a priceless gift, and she's giving me the best she can give me of herself. I'm feeling a lot of growth within myself and in my life, and it feels good. I don't like crying, but it has let out a lot of pent up emotions and stuff that has desperately needed to be set free, and I feel that the release of those emotions has done me so much good, even if I can't make sense of it right now. So let it out, and don't worry too much about making the dots connect at the moment. It's happening for a reason, and sooner or later it will all come together and make sense. Know that what you're about to embark on will be one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself and embrace it with all the energy you can! One day you'll be so thankful you did this. Hang in there! Hugs, K!!

MTF

First off, I just want to thank everyone for your support. I feel so blessed for having found this forum. I really think I would be in a bad place if I wasn't able to air out some of my feelings on here. Even if I can't quite identify them.


Monte-

quote:

Hmm, might be why I'm resisiting...I LIKE needing him. It's almost comforting to have someone like that to 'need', even if the need causes grief...

I understand this perfectly. I have never realized what it feels like to need somebody until I began therapy. It's a scary feeling and it really does cause grief, but I seek it out anyway. I have realized that I never knew what it felt like to need somebody, like really, really need them. It seems like since I have this need, it means that they have done something for me that shows they care about me (I am always fighting with the side of me that is convinced that Ts don't care) and that they are interested in me. Part of this whole process that scares me is that I'm afraid that one day they are just going to stop caring, leave me, and not look back.

And don't worry - I am definitely not your T or a T at all. Very, very far from it. I guess I was just very in touch with the strictly intellectual side of myself when I wrote that.

MTF-

Just having someone care enough to respond and let me know that I'm not completely alone in this is the best thing anyone, including you, could ever do for me. Like I said, it is a blessing to have a place where I can know that I'm not alone.

quote:

My problem is that I can't really identify what I feel; I can't name my emotions other than joy (which is extremely rare), anger, sadness and fear. Oh, and shame. But I didn't even know what shame was (identified it by name only this last year, really), only that it felt bad and I tried to avoid it as much as possible. I feel like I've lived a life void of emotions and feelings, like I've been dead inside and I'm tired of living that way. What kind of a life is it when you don't really live?

I totally identify with this. It's a huge reason why I have trouble saying that I'm emotionally numb, because I can rationalize that yes, I do feel feelings. But I am only capable of feeling the bad ones. Once I began therapy, I realized that I can't answer if someone asks me if I'm happy, because I truly don't know. I'll have moments (as in, maybe 5 minutes at a time, and because of external circumstances), but it always leaves, and then I can't define how I'm feeling anymore. I've been in an almost constant state of neutrality, and it makes me feel like less of a person. It makes me think that I must be apathetic and uncaring to others, because I'm certainly apathetic to myself. But, I'm not even sure of that. I truly don't know at this point.

I am meeting with my potential new T tomorrow. I am so scared. I feel like I'm going to lock up both physically and mentally and stare at the wall like I'm catatonic. I don't deal well with drastically new situations like this...

ooo, tomorrow is the big day, eh? Kashley, I think it's awesome that you are brave to try this. Part of why it hurts so much is growth and change has got to hurt, so they say. So much of what you have written I identify with, and yes, it so nice to know that others feel the same way, that we are not alone in feeling the way we do (or don't ) about so many things. Please let us know how it goes if you are up to it! We will be thinking of you!

BB

K,

Yes, this place is a blessing, and I too am grateful for it and for all of you great people that add to the boards and help me through my many struggles.

Neutral, numb, apathetic are ALL good words to describe the way I feel most of the time. Thanks for putting those out there. I struggle with finding words to describe myself sometimes, I guess because I've not been in touch at all with my true feelings or state of being for so very long. Sad.

Good luck at your appointment with the potential new T. I'm sure you'll do just fine! Just remember to breathe! And yes, if you're up to it, please let us know how it goes!!

MTF

Good luck Kashley
Do let us know how it goes,

starfish

Hi everyone -

My session today was totally fine. Of course, I knew that would probably be the case, but I was still petrified. My T was very kind, understanding, and sharp. I feel like I stumbled over everything I was saying, but she picked it up and was able to get a pretty good overview of the things I discussed with my previous T. That was a huge relief, because I was dreading the part where I would have to go through everything all over again. She was able to recognize (without me specifically saying) that I don't really feel my feelings, besides a few negative ones.

I know that I won't necessarily be able to tell if we mesh until a few session in, but I think it should be ok. Which is another relief, because I would have a ton of trouble gathering enough energy to call someone else. I won't be meeting with her again until next Friday, but she's actually counseling faculty and staff on campus which is taking up a lot of time, but won't be after the next week or two. I guess we'll get a more regular schedule worked out then.

Thank you again, everyone, for all of the support. It was truly your reassurances that helped me get through the past couple days and through this first session.

K,

Glad to hear it went well! I agree with Monte that it sounds like she is perceptive and knows what she's doing. And yeah, after group therapy and the experiences you've had there, this should be so much better. I hope it works out and that she's a good fit for you. Keep us updated!

MTF

Hi Kashley,

Congratulations on finding the new T! I'm so glad the first session went well. Good job on doing all the hard work to find what you need. I'm very happy for you that it worked out, and I look forward to hearing more about how things go with your T!

Take care,
SG

Hi Kashley,
Glad to hear the first appt went well, here's hoping it's a good match! You should be very proud of yourself for walking through the fear to get what you need. Be sure to keep us posted on how it's going.

AG

Thank you all. I didn't really feel too much relief about being in one-on-one compared to group until today.

Today was the last day of group therapy, and I felt a little guilty for it, but I had a major argument with my mother last night and even into this morning (all through emails), and I brought it up. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have brought it up on my own, but when the leaders went around to do check-ins and see what was going on with everyone, I was a little dodgy in my answer. They didn't move on to the next person, so they seemed to be waiting for me to elaborate. The whole argument beat me down a little bit, so I have a feeling I also looked just as dejected as I felt.

Anyway, it's a fairly complicated thing, but all in all, my mother sent me an email last night. It was well-intentioned, but just because it was well-intentioned doesn't mean that the action she took was necessary or helpful to me. I responded to her in a brief email, but I wasn't angry (as she thought I would be). I just told her how the email made me feel. I didn't accuse her of anything. And I also didn't tell her just how upset it made me. Reading the email she sent me was so, so painful. I didn't know what to do with myself. In some ways, it was eye-opening, because I realized why I have shut myself off from my emotions. I knew that feeling things as I discovered more truths would be painful, but last night was excruciating. It took several hours, but I finally reached this point where it was almost like a switch flipped, and I was fine. I was numb again.

In all, we both sent two emails to each other last night. I thought that was it...I thought we were heading into the period of no contact that occurs after major fights like this. But she sent me yet another email this morning, but about a totally different subject. She gave my dog away a month ago, which I knew was coming, but she didn't tell me that he would be leaving so soon after she made the decision to give him away. She mentioned the idea to me, and then the next time I heard from her, it was a week and a half later, and she engaged in a tale about my dog's new home and owners. I was a little upset, and I told her this. After I had to explain several times what exactly upset me about it (that I knew she needed to do it, but I wished she would have just let me know that there was a possibility he could be leaving soon), she said that she understood and apologized, but there was some sort of undertone to it. I've never brought the whole thing up since then, but she has brought it up several times, accusing me of being angry at her. Each time I've told her no, and I've told her (again) why I was upset in the beginning, but I'm not anymore. Well, she brought the whole situation up again this morning, again accusing me of being angry at her, and she started telling me that her life is a "black hole." That "this is it for me." To top it off, she got angry at me for feeling uncomfortable when I come home, which isn't often anymore. Just a few times a year, and I only live 2 1/2 hours away. I really didn't want to get upset again this morning, so I just sent her an email saying that I couldn't deal with this right now, that I had group therapy and couldn't go in there a complete mess. She never responded.

I just don't know what to say to her. I am so grateful that I had group therapy today (which is a first!), because I was able to talk to someone about this. I don't know how I would have lasted until next Friday. Anyway, we talked about it some, and other people pointed out double standards that my mother has. That she can blast me, but I can't say anything against her (or even something that she doesn't agree with) without her completely blowing up and accusing me of attacking her. I've gotten used to this with my father, but it's just exasperating to hear it and deal with it from my mother, too.

What I'm struggling with right now is to keep from minimizing this situation. I know that by next Friday, I will have written this off as me overreacting, and that it's my fault that she got so angry. I think I know this is not true. By next Friday, this situation will probably be over; either both of us will ignore this happened, or I will cave and apologize. And when we are on good terms, I don't know if I'll bring it up with my T. I think that part of it is because I'm not ready to be angry at my mother, because even if I don't confront her about anything, it will change things permanently. But I also question myself so much, so by next Friday, I may have fully convinced myself that this was all my doing. I don't know how to deal with that. By thinking that I'm not at fault, I will just be angry and hurt...I'd rather not feel those things.

Ugh. I am sorry for the novel. Despite me saying that I don't want to feel, I know that part of me wants to hold onto this until next week so I can talk to my T about it and make a change. I guess that's why I'm posting here. Right now, I don't have enough strength to convince myself that it's worth hanging on to this hurt and anger. Thank you to anyone who read my little rant - I feel like I am complaining so much lately!

Hi Kashley,

I don't think you are complaining at all. This is exactly the kind of thing I came to therapy to change - patterns of relating that are painful, where I feel stuck, and want to change, but can't seem to do it on my own. So no apologies, you are in the right place to talk about this and get support!

I am so sorry to hear about how your mother handled giving away your dog. I felt really sad for you (and your dog )just reading about it, and you have every right to feel sad and hurt that she didn't give you any time to process it. It sounds like she didn't consider how important your dog was to you, like your feelings about it aren't on her radar at all. This kind of treatment is crazy-making and negating, and very easily leads to the minimizing you described so well. It's something I grew up with, too, and the minimizing is a defense we learn when we're not "seen" and not allowed to be angry or have needs or feelings. It is something we had to do to cope with the conditions we grew up in.

I think the (eventual) goal in therapy is not to minimize, but to speak our truth about how we're feeling without minimizing or "caving", and also without expectation of a certain reaction from the other person (?). But I'm just starting to get a very rocky glimpse of this goal in my relationship with my husband. And I've got a loooooonnnng way to go.

So I can really understand your reluctance to be angry with your mother. Relating to one's mother is one of the hardest relationships of all, IMO. Being angry at my mom is about THE scariest emotion I can think of. When my T mentions telling my mother how I feel about her.....my amygdala goes absolutely haywire. NO WAY! Not happening. It is the scariest feeling imaginable to me. That's graduate-level therapy. Someday...

So I think it's great that you're articulating this here. Doing that in general has helped me to articulate more with my T than I would have without doing this, even if I don't get to all of it. I hope it helps you, too.

Take care,
SG

quote:

and she started telling me that her life is a "black hole." That "this is it for me." To top it off, she got angry at me for feeling uncomfortable when I come home, which isn't often anymore.

Hi Kashley,

I'm sorry to read about your argument with your mom - it sounds really upsetting. It's no wnder you shut down the feelings and the communication if she says stuff like this above. It's a really threatening, scary thing to hear from your mother, especially when it's wrapped up in blame as well.

Is she implying that she might try to end her life? I'm sorry to ask bluntly, but it seems like that's the undertone. In any case, my heart ached to read this. My mum has expressed or implied suicidal, despairing feelings to me a few times, and it's a nightmare feeling. Overwhelming, helpless. I get angry because it's the only way I can get away from that feeling.

I just want to validate your strong reaction to this. I understand why you would want to shut it off, I would and do too. But I also think we are entitled to our own full and healthy emotional lives as adults. It's hard to find that but I think it might mean reclaiming some of the stuff we shut off, partly to protect other people and partly to protect ourselves from other people. I love that you let yourself feel some of this, and you survived.

Hi K,

Sorry you got into a fight with your mother. Not a fun thing. I'm hearing that although you don't want to deal with this and be angry at her and accept that this IS HER FAULT, you really do, because it wouldn't be bothering you and you wouldn't be posting here if you didn't want someone to convince you to hang onto this until you see your T next Friday!! This is tough. I'm at a point similar to yours where I know I have reasons to be angry at my mother, but I don't want to be angry at her, because like you said, even if you don't confront her about anything, it does change things. As a 'homework assignment' for my T, I'm supposed to be comparing my mother to other women I've been attached to in the past, and also to my T, but I have NO desire (and honestly can't even bring myself to TRY) to do this because I know if I honestly look at my mother I will start to see things about her that will make me find the anger that is hiding deep within. Sad, and a bit scary I must admit. I can understand a bit where you're coming from. But I also have to be blunt here and say that you HAVE TO hold onto this, K. You need to write this down in a journal or something so that you can take it with you next Friday to talk about with your T--even if you just print out this page you're reading where you've typed this up and bring it with you. This is BIG for you, and it needs to be adressed, even if you're worried about what the end results of feeling anger toward your mother might be. You need to learn how to stop taking the blame for this stuff and allow your mother to own her own stuff.

I know you don't want to feel the hurt and anger that come along with facing the stuff you've been through and are still going through with your mother (and father). But that is why you're in therapy, right? You WANT to get to a better place in life, you want to LIVE life to its fullest, you want to be happy with yourself and be able to take care of you in all situations and be able to stand up for K!! Right???!!! So this is where the journey begins on how you learn how to do all of this stuff. You have to take that step though, no one can do it for you! Hang onto it, K! Fight to keep it there, even if the whole next week and a half are hell because you have to feel those feelings every day. Don't lose it, girl!! You can do this!!

MTF

P.S. I hope that wasn't so annoying that you're going to tell me to shut up now! I want you to do what I know (and what I know that YOU know) you need to do!

SG -

quote:

I think the (eventual) goal in therapy is not to minimize, but to speak our truth about how we're feeling without minimizing or "caving", and also without expectation of a certain reaction from the other person

I think that's definitely what I need to work toward. Everything in the past has been so convoluted, that up until recently, the notion that I could speak about how I feel and not be persecuted for it (unless the other person was in agreement) seemed like it was completely ludicrous. It still looks like it's way beyond my reach, and that I should never expect that kind of treatment, but I'm very, very slowly starting to see that maybe I can achieve that for myself. Eventually.

Jones -

I have never thought of my mother as being suicidal. I have a very hard time thinking that she would be suicidal. But to be honest, I really can't say that I'm 100% sure she's not have any suicidal thoughts. I was home a lot more last year and through the summer, but I've been home maybe 4 times since this past August, and I"m probably only going home a couple times this summer since I'll be working and taking more classes. And then I go straight back into fall semester. She works out of the house, and she doesn't get out much. I've always been her "person," I guess you could say. I didn't realize how much impact just my presence had on her until I stopped going home often, because when I'm home, I still hear her complaints about having to work all of the time, how she doesn't have a future to look forward to...It sounds to me like she's now struggling to keep her head above water, but when I was home, it was an easier thing for her to do.

It makes me feel so incredibly guilty and a horrible person and daughter, but even knowing that, I don't want to go home. It's things like that that make me feel terribly selfish. I'm not even 100% sure that my mother won't commit suicide, but I still won't go home? I don't know what to do to fix it. It's an overwhelmingly frustrating situation, because she's telling me this, but I don't know what to do about it. I can't make her feel a certain way... yes, it's an unfathomably helpless situation. I can totally understand what you are saying, Jones, because anger is the only way to deal with the helplessness.

I just get so confused when it comes to her, because she really does love me and does loving things for me. She expresses support for me and encourages me to do what I feel driven to do. The only times that we completely butt heads are when we are arguing. When we argue, it's like we can't ever collaborate to reach an agreement about something. It's one side or another. Mostly her side. That's why I have such a difficult time thinking and/or talking negatively about her. It confuses and frustrates me so much that I hate thinking about it, because I don't know what the truth is. I am so exasperated with this whole situation. The more I think about it, the more I just don't know. At the end of one of her emails, she said that she knows I'm trying to stand up for myself, but that was her trying to stand up for herself, too. Reading that makes me feel like she has been counting up dozens and dozens of situations where she hasn't stood up for herself, and she's unloading her built up anger onto me now. Goodness. Working this out in therapy is going to take a long time.

MTF -

First off, let me just say that you make me smile. Also, thank you for reiterating why I need to hold on to what I'm feeling. Well, it's muted now, but it's still there. I'm going to absolutely hate and dread it, but to hold on to it, I'm probably going to have to re-read her emails a few times in the next week. Otherwise, I've become and expert at blocking things out. I just feel like a kid planting my feet in the ground and screaming "I don't wanna!" Ugh.

I also just want to thank you, as well as Jones, for being blunt. I am normally completely petrified when people are blunt with me, because it always seems like criticisms will follow. Even today in group therapy, one of the members said he was going to be blunt, and I thought I knew what he was going to say (which would have been critical of me), but it was actually something regarding my mother that was meant to help me absolve myself from feeling guilty about thing she said to me or feels. Even though I know in my mind that I started therapy so that I wouldn't feel like I'm being blamed or that I'm at fault for so many things, I still fear that it will ultimately be all my fault. On here, it's the same thing. Every single time I'm not blamed for feeling the way I do, it really has a profound effect. I can't even begin to explain how much it means to me.

Hi K,

I'm sorry if I over-read your mother's comments in relating them to my own situation. You will have a much better idea of what they mean in the context of your situation and the communication between you than I do. It may well be that they just express a despairing feeling, rather than any suicidal intention or ideation. In any case, I totally relate to your feelings of reluctance to engage in this, the sense of her dependency and how overwhelming that feels, the guilt over not wanting to be there to be overwhelmed by it.

There has been a major crisis going on in my family over the last year that I just haven't engaged with at all, and I too feel like a horrible daughter. I don't even call because I don't want to know. But when I think about doing something I just come back to that feeling of helplessness - I can't do anything, because I don't know how to even begin to fix it. And the emotional burden feels too great to even try to be there for my family. AND there's the anger - they shouldn't have got into this situation, and already I have spent so much of my life trying to keep my own head above water and recover from the emotional troubles of my past.

I wish I knew what to say, K - I don't have advice or know what direction is the right one. But I hear you.

J

Hi Jones,

Don't apologize for anything. I'm very thankful that you brought it up, actually. My last T asked me if my mother could or would possibly become suicidal or commit suicide, and at the time, the answer was a definite no. But as I start changing things for myself, I'm starting to (painfully) recognize the need for me to start to keep an eye out, because the more I learn about myself and my mother, the more I realize that I'm it. It's almost as if I'm the only thing sustaining her. My parents are not together, and I live mostly off of financial aid, but I do get some financial help from my father. I actually have nothing that is keeping me from completely separating from my mother, though I don't think I could ever do that to her. But I don't know if she's realized this. I don't know what will happen when she does.

kashley - oh why are parents so hard? I am glad that you had the opportunity to vent at your group therapy meeting, that was so important, and I hope that you will be able to hang on and get some help from your T too. It seems as if your mum can be really insensitive to your needs and feelings - I too was so sad to read that she gave your dog away - that was awful kashley.

I think also that we learn to be responsible for our parents, even though we are so not. My mum threatened suicide on a regular basis when I was younger and it was truly terrifying, so just you having an inkling of that now must feel really hard. But you are not responsible for her or her actions, however hard that may sound,

quote:

the more I learn about myself and my mother, the more I realize that I'm it. It's almost as if I'm the only thing sustaining her

oh kashley, that's some big responsibility for you. People do carry out threats of things they have maybe inferred, or sometimes do even when they haven't (ooo bit close to the mark for me, I really do know ) but you are not responsible for her and must not let this cloud what you want to do or say, because your needs will always then come second. Has she others she can talk to or who you can share this with who know her? It's really hard for you, I know. Thank you Jones for posting your thoughts, many people wouldn't have been brave enough to have asked the question initially.

starfish


have done so

Starfish -

I'm sorry to hear about what was obviously an awful ordeal for you, but thank you so much for your input. I think it's just going to take a lot of time and a lot of supportive people to help me realize what I am and am not responsible for. I still feel very far from defining where the boundaries should be, rather than where they are right now.

My mother doesn't really interact with anyone. It seems hard to believe when I write it out, but it's really true. So it makes me feel even worse when I withdraw from her, because I'm do so, knowing that there's no one there for her. I just don't know what to do. I mean, I really can't blame her for being depressed about her life, her future, because if I were in her situation, I know I would be too. This is such an exhausting situation.

Kashley, I feel for you here. Starfish and Jones are right in what they said about your mom...you do not owe her your life, Kashley. It sounds like enough has been sucked out already. Maybe you are not ready to hear that, and if so I apologize. I have been through this in a rather extreme way. I relate to you saying "I am her person." I finally left my mom far behind and havn't really looked back, but the fallout was terrible. Honestly, I think she now forgets that I am her daughter and I wnet through some agonizing years. Decisions still remain impossible-the decision that I was not supposed to live my life- except in the context of what made my mother happy and comfortable- was made for me for long years- in what I am realizing now, a very profound way. And the guilt at leaving a depressed person who has no other means of support, a parent at that- is terrible to live with. I think I block that out. But she is not your resonsibility- nor do you have the resources to provide what she needs. If you back off (not to the extent I did, probably, but was neccessary in my situation) you may discover your mom will start to search out alternative means of support. But you cannot do that for her, though the temptation to encourage her may be great. I navigated this problem withoput a P or T and made big mistakes that left me quite empty and made some terrible life-changing decisions..so I am glad that you have T to help you navigate this very tricky place.

quote:

It's one side or another. Mostly her side. That's why I have such a difficult time thinking and/or talking negatively about her. It confuses and frustrates me so much that I hate thinking about it, because I don't know what the truth is. I am so exasperated with this whole situation. The more I think about it, the more I just don't know.

I deal with this same problem too, Kashley, it is a place of complete helplessness and confusion. I still deal with. I think for me it boils down to, I was never supposed to have any feelings or needs or desires of my own, unless they corresponded with what she wanted/needed. So I learned very early to have the desires that she had. To be a carbon copy of mom. To stifle whatever came up that might have interfered with her equilibrium. So that pattern persists now. It feels like a betrayal to speak poorly of your mom, or worse, like an outright lie that is selfish. I used to think that I was attacking her basic goodness and integrity in order to feel good about myself whenever I dared to defend my desires or needs or emotions. If they conflicted with hers in anyway, no matter how slight, I was evil for having those. And I believed that wholeheartedly. She was God to me. Now I begin to think- to allow myself to think- it may have been the other way around. But I did run away from what became an impossible situation to deal with, and now I deal daily with the fallout from that. So talk to the T and talk to the T. That is all I can offer.

hugs, Kashley...and- to thine own self be true.

BB

I forgot to mention, of course this is my experience of the problem and it may or may not be the same for you...but it seems to me like these problems often play out in similar ways...

Hi Guys,
I don't have much time but there was a story they handed out at the training for the Crisis line to address our responsibility towards others and I tracked it down online. I think it's really applicable and might help to read. You can find it here: The Bridge

AG

kashley Thank you for your response - I think it's hard when we have had a bad experience ourselves,not to cloud our judgement on that for others, so I am glad I didn't for you. And it sounds like your mom is quite dependent and reliant on you -and that's tough. So you are right

quote:

I think it's just going to take a lot of time and a lot of supportive people to help me realize what I am and am not responsible for

that's just what you need and it will never probably feel comfortable. You might always carry some regret, but hopefully the guilt and sense of responsibility will fade in time even though she is your mom. You can care about her without being responsible for her and there is a difference. BB rightly said

quote:

It feels like a betrayal to speak poorly of your mom, or worse, like an outright lie that is selfish

and that is hard because we then feel as if we are doing wrong as a daughter etc. So BB is right, keep talking to your T and to others that have had similar experiences with their parents and have come out the other side.

starfish

First of all, I just want to say that I am repeatedly shocked at the amount of support you all have offered me. If I'm being completely honest, I don't feel like I deserve it - having all of you support me in the negative feelings I have toward my mother feels like an ultimate betrayal. I mean, I technically know that I can't be totally unfounded in my feelings if I'm not being second-guessed on every corner, and I value each and every one of your responses SO much, but it's still tough to get past such an automatic kind of response.

I spoke to my mother on the phone today, and it played out pretty much exactly how I thought it would. She acted like everything was fine, so I was definitely not going to bring up our email arguments. There was no way that it would do any good, and frankly, I don't have any more energy to fight with her again. I was pretty much petrified to call her, but I really needed to ask her a question about my insurance. Admittedly, I could have emailed, but if I did that and wasn't at all bubbly (like I typically am) then she would think I was still angry, and then she would get angry at me all over again for still being mad. What a mess. It feels like an indirect apology whenever I am the first one to reinitiate contact..

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
It feels like a betrayal to speak poorly of your mom, or worse, like an outright lie that is selfish. I used to think that I was attacking her basic goodness and integrity in order to feel good about myself whenever I dared to defend my desires or needs or emotions. If they conflicted with hers in anyway, no matter how slight, I was evil for having those.

Yes - this is something that I'm slowly starting to realize. Right now, it seems like more of a faint possibility (VERY faint), but it's there. Thank you for sharing your experience, BB. I tend to agree that problems like these to play out similarly. I don't think it would ever get quite to the degree that it did for you, BB (which is heartbreaking to hear about - I'm sorry that it's been such an awful struggle for you), it definitely wouldn't be pretty. But I truly can't even really speculate at what would happen, because the more I learn, the more I realize that I've never stood up for what I feel toward my mother if it ever differed from what she perceived.

AG -

Thank you for posting that link. I was surprised at how the story resonated with me. It actually scared me more than anything, because I know I need to let go of the rope, so-to-speak, but I'm too afraid to find out what would happen were I to do so that I don't know if I ever will be able to.

Starfish -

quote:

You can care about her without being responsible for her and there is a difference.

This really struck me, Starfish, because until now, I never realized just how blurred that line is. Actually, I think I usually operate on the understanding that there IS no line at all. Thank you for such valuable insight.

Oh Kashley - I’ve been following this thread but didn’t really know what to say up until now, but your issues with your mother resonate a lot with me so thought I’d put a reply in.

I particularly relate to having to be a particular way with my mother in order to basically give her what she (tacitly) demands (and conversely never expect to get for me). She is very good at being the helpless no-one is there for me victim and it’s VERY hard to take any kind of stand that might hurt her in some way. Whatever I do or say that isn’t giving her constant reinforcement and validation I experience as utterly selfish (and her responses tend to confirm that). She is so good at presenting herself as a loving caring nice I only want what’s best for my daughter mother that it’s really hard for me to stand back and realize that actually she’s a manipulative selfish self obsessed user.

I’m stuck between incredible rage and intense longing and pain in my dealings with her and as I haven’t even started to deal with my relationship with her, I kind of just put it on the back burner and avoid thinking too much about it at this point - but as she lives in another country it only impinges on me when we have email exchanges, which are not that often.

I’m so sorry you are in such a bind here as it’s pretty obvious she is very much a presence in your life. I wonder if you were able to let yourself feel angry about her (not necessarily with her directly) whether that might not help you deal with some of the mass of conflicting feelings she causes in you? Just a thought, as the whole set up with my mother is such that though I recognize I’m really angry at her, that (totally justified) anger gets squashed by everything else and I reckon the day I can truly feel that anger is when I’ll be able to free myself to care about her without getting stuck in having to meet her demands. (And maybe free myself of continuing to need from her things she never has and never will give me!)

Hope you are doing ok today :hug:

LL

quote:

She is very good at being the helpless no-one is there for me victim and it’s VERY hard to take any kind of stand that might hurt her in some way

Oh gosh - absolutely agree. Everything has always been so much worse for my mum that for anybody else and yet if I dare tell her that she'll get really miffed and not talk or be 'off' with me for days. So I say usually what she wants to haer to keep the peace. My T started challenging me on this years ago and it slowly has dawned on me what had been going on with my mum. I very slowly have learned to take more control - for me that was not feeling obliged to tell her everything all the time, to slowly loosen the tie that seemed to exist between us. Her tie that is, her control over me. It was difficult at first, she didn't like it, but things are a bit easier now. I suppose that bit is easier for you LL with your mum in another country, but sounds very difficult in other ways. Being stuck between incredible rage and intense longing and pain is awful - I'm sorry that's there for you.

kashley, yes it is an automatic response and we are SO good at those - groan but well done for voicing it, I think that's the first step towards change.

starfish

LL -

Thank you for sharing your experiences - I do resonate a lot with what you are saying, too. I guess I have been ok today...I'm half-heartedly trying to stay in touch with how my mother made me feel even though she's acting like everything is perfectly fine now. I've learned over the years that when she goes back to acting fine, she's just waiting for me to apologize, which I'm not going to do. But it makes me angry, and anger has always been an off-limits kind of feeling. I'm struggling against the huge part of me that has gotten so good at stuffing everything away...I'm forcing myself to write in my journal every day, but with each day that passes, the easier it's getting to just ignore everything and go back to "normal."

quote:

She is so good at presenting herself as a loving caring nice I only want what’s best for my daughter mother that it’s really hard for me to stand back and realize that actually she’s a manipulative selfish self obsessed user.

I can't tell you how much it helps me to hear that someone else knows the confusion that a mother like that provokes. When my mother presents herself as being so caring and loving, and then when we get in an argument that causes her to get so so angry with me, I have entirely convinced myself that I absolutely HAVE to be at fault for her to do a 180 that quickly. It doesn't make sense to me, and although I'm started to realize that it may not be my fault, I'm still very far from really believing it. But it still helps tremendously to know that I'm not the only one that has ever felt this way.

quote:

I wonder if you were able to let yourself feel angry about her (not necessarily with her directly) whether that might not help you deal with some of the mass of conflicting feelings she causes in you?

This feels so dangerous to me. If I were to get angry, I wouldn't act the same with her. She mainly talks to me through emails - if we talk on the phone, it's always because I initiate the phone calls. But in both situations, I know that I wouldn't be the same...and she would probably recognize this as more time went on. This has happened a couple times, and she always gets so angry with me that I'm mad at her for some reason. And if I can't tell her why (both because it would make everything worse and because I don't think I could ever spit the words out) then everything will get exponentially worse. Maybe once I am hopefully in a more supportive situation with this new T I can eventually get in touch with my anger, but it's too scary right now. I guess I need to go through more time where I'm just doing and saying things that placate her before I do what I need to.

Starfish -

quote:

if I dare tell her that she'll get really miffed and not talk or be 'off' with me for days. So I say usually what she wants to haer to keep the peace.

Oh yes, I completely understand this. I can only hope that I can learn to not be afraid to say what I feel someday. It's always been a bad thing, and the more I realize that it shouldn't be a bad thing, the more pain it causes every time my feelings are totally ignored, negated, dismissed, etc.