Well, I identify with a lot of what you have said Lamplighter, very well described in a way with words I would struggle to assemble. I have really not thought that much about the dynamics of therapy, how I'm being approached,
more about the "me" sitting there trying to express myself. With my therapist, what doesn't help me is him recounting other patient's stories...I fail to see the connection lots of time, and its the same stories over and over again. Please get back to me me me!

I really hate it when my T asks me what I need in the moment. I can only sometimes barely hold on to being aware of a feeling - I have no idea what I need most of the time! I told her that it pisses me off when she asks me that because I can never answer her and it makes me feel like an idiot. She said she doesn't expect that I have an answer, but hopes that it will get me thinking about accepting and recognizing that I might have needs. Maybe. Someday.

I also hate when I tell her something that feels vulnerable and she just looks at me in silence. I am usually hoping for some reassurance but can't ask for it, and I would think that would be pretty obvious, but I guess not. I have wondered if it is because she doesn't want to influence my attachment either way. I have also wondered if she isn't really listening, isn't getting what I'm trying to say, or just plain doesn't know what to say.

Oh seablue--how much I can relate to exactly what you said up there^^---I've addressed the second issue with T and he told me that he thought the reassurance could be conveyed in some other way (the way he "was" with me, whatever that means) and that if he said it out loud, I would think that he was being insincere and just telling me what I wanted to hear. I told him I need to hear the reassurance and he's working on it, but still sometimes, he doesn't get it.

As to the asking what I need, T does that a lot with me too and I never know what to say, because I either don't know what I need or am afraid to ask for it.

quote:

Monte: Also, nothing worse for those who are having/have had a tough time with their T than having to read other peoples glowing reports and wonderful experiences...talk about salt in the wound.

quote:

STRM: I'm really sorry for starting the other thread. I wasn't trying to rub salt in anyone's wounds. That really was the last thing that I was trying to do.

Sorry to hijack the thread but I really wanted to comment on this. Monte, I'm not trying to put you on the spot because I'm sure it wasn't your intention to marginalize anyone or tell anyone to shut up, but I think we need to be really careful. This forum is about people dealing with therapy, both the ups and downs, and giving them a place to express themselves, both the good and bad. So there's nothing wrong with a thread on what we think our therapist's are doing wrong. But there's also nothing wrong with a thread on what our therapist's are doing right. As a matter of fact, I know that people have posted in the past that hearing about others' negative OR positive experiences have helped them clarify what they're looking for in therapy or what it is that identifies a good therapist.

We're a lot of different people from many different cultures and backgrounds, in different places on our healing journey and I think if we all need to be aware that sometimes the things other people post may be difficult for us for many different reasons. But I would want to err on the side of dealing with my own pain and allowing people to speak. Don't get me wrong, I think a sensitivity to other people and what they're going through is important, but I also don't want to shut anyone down. There are too few places to go where you can be understood when discussing these issues.

If I may provide an example from my own experience, after first saying I would NOT have said anything about this subject if I had not needed an example and I don't want to change anyone's posting about it. (There's already one member who I think avoids this because they know I struggle with the issue, and they need to knock it off!) My therapist has a strick no-hug policy. I know because we spent two sessions discussing it. It ain't NEVER going to happen. when I'm in a bad place and fighting against the boundaries it can sometimes be pretty painful to read about other people getting hugs, back rubs, etc. from their therapists. BUT, I know I want to be able to talk about what it meant to me if I were getting one. I know what its meant to be to be able to talk about NOT getting one. I also take the attitude that there are a lot of things I love about my therapist, and I've chosen to live with the lack of hugs, its worth it. But that doesn't mean I think anyone else should have to do the same.

So I think its very legitimate to talk about a particular topic or action causing you pain but to also respect other people's needs to talk about the same things from another angle.

STRM, you didn't do anything wrong posting that topic. I actually thought it was a good question and could provide a lot of good information to other people about what to look for in a therapist. I also understand this topic because if you're struggling with a therapist it's just as important to be able to talk about to other people who can understand why those actions would be upsetting.

No one's doing anything wrong either way.

AG

quote:

We're a lot of different people from many different cultures and backgrounds, in different places on our healing journey and I think if we all need to be aware that sometimes the things other people post may be difficult for us for many different reasons. But I would want to err on the side of dealing with my own pain and allowing people to speak.

This is a really good point and a really good time to say how much I appreciate that I can come here and vent or celebrate, whatever the case may be. I have an example like AG's hugs...right about the time my T terminated with me for telling him my feelings, several other people's T's were reporting fabulous responses from their T's from telling them the same kind of thing. It was very hard to read those stories at the time...so I just avoided those threads for a while. I'm so glad there is room for everyone here, wherever they are on their journey.

Peace,
SG

1)

quote:

Originally posted by Monte:
Not confronting or even acknowledging my obvious and painful struggles with transference toward him. That is my biggest gripe. Actually I believe that has been damaging and almost...dare I say it...irresponsible.

Yeah, that. And even when I brought it up, he shrugged it off as, "Everyone gets crushes on people; that's okay."

2) Advice giving! I want to be heard; I don't want him to Fix everything.

3) Talking about his feelings, and too much self-disclosure about his family. It's none of my business, no matter how much I may crave it! It just causes me more pain, and makes it harder to talk to him. For example, knowing that his wife is a slob makes me wonder if he thinks I'M a slob when I complain that my husband criticizes me relentlessly. Knowing that he feels defective makes it really hard to give him any meaningful feedback, if I'm worried it might hurt his feelings.

4) Not shaking my hand when we first met. It seemed really odd to me, since it's a social norm for two people to shake hands when they introduce themselves. Since he didn't, I wondered if he had a no-touching policy, or maybe he's phobic about germs...? It became kind of a preoccupation for me and I craved touch yet was always worried that he must find me repulsive if he can't even shake my hand. (OK, so this one is obviously about ME, not him. I should have just asked him about it.)

quote:

Originally posted by echo:
3) Talking about his feelings, and too much self-disclosure about his family. It's none of my business, no matter how much I may crave it! It just causes me more pain, and makes it harder to talk to him. For example, knowing that his wife is a slob makes me wonder if he thinks I'M a slob when I complain that my husband criticizes me relentlessly. Knowing that he feels defective makes it really hard to give him any meaningful feedback, if I'm worried it might hurt his feelings.

Echo, I think you're absolutely justified in being really concerned about this.

This is a MASSIVE red flag to me. Maybe I'm just used to having a more psychodynamically-oriented T who reveals nothing about himself, but I think that revealing any personal information that is suggestive of any personal belief, conviction or judgement does just what you experience; namely that it damages the perception and confidence that you're talking to someone who is objective and non-judgemental, and that is a problem.

I mean, of course a T can comment on something that is a matter of basic issues of right or wrong, but casual opining about his family, man, that ain't good in my opinion.

Russ

I have one to add to the list. How about how UNhelpful it is when your T tells you he/she is burnt out.


Top Ten Signs You Are Approaching Burn-Out For psychologists and mental health workers.
by Storm A. King

10) You think of the peaceful park you like as “your private therapeutic milieu.”

9) You realize that your floridly psychotic patient, who is picking invisible flowers out of mid air, is probably having more fun in life than you are.

8) A grateful client, who thinks you walk on water, brings you a small gift and you end up having to debrief your feelings of unworthiness with a colleague.

7) You are watching a re-run of the “Wizard of Oz” and you start to categorize the types of delusions that Dorothy had.

6) Your best friend comes to you with severe relationship troubles, and you start trying to remember which cognitive behavioral technique has the most empirical validly for treating this problem.

5) You realize you actually have no friends, they have all become just one big case load.

4) A co-worker asks how you are doing and you reply that you are a bit “internally preoccupied” and “not able to interact with peers” today.

3) Your spouse asks you to set the table and you tell them that it would be “countertherapeutic to your current goals” to do that.

2) You tell your teenage daughter she is not going to start dating boys because she is “in denial”, ”lacks insight.” and her “emotions are not congruent with her chronological age.”

And, the number one reason you may be burning out....

1) You are packing for a trip to a large family holiday reunion and you take the DSM-IV with you “just in case.”



I am going to print this off and give it to my T. Not kidding.

Thanks AG. I appreciate your response. I really contemplated whether or not to post the thread in the first place and I tried to reference those who aren't in a T relationship or in a difficult one by asking what you would want in a T relationship.

Your example was helpful as well. I actually had a really good session with my T a week ago and really wanted to post about it and the impact that it had on me, but I didn't because I was afraid that it would be insensitive to what others are experiencing and posting about. I've been in both positions and I understand that it can be so hard to read about the positive, but at the same time it can help because it gives reference points for the good that is out there when you find the right T for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ:

quote:

Originally posted by echo:
3) Talking about his feelings, and too much self-disclosure about his family. It's none of my business, no matter how much I may crave it! It just causes me more pain, and makes it harder to talk to him. For example, knowing that his wife is a slob makes me wonder if he thinks I'M a slob when I complain that my husband criticizes me relentlessly. Knowing that he feels defective makes it really hard to give him any meaningful feedback, if I'm worried it might hurt his feelings.

Echo, I think you're absolutely justified in being really concerned about this.

This is a MASSIVE red flag to me. Maybe I'm just used to having a more psychodynamically-oriented T who reveals nothing about himself, but I think that revealing any personal information that is suggestive of any personal belief, conviction or judgement does just what you experience; namely that it damages the perception and confidence that you're talking to someone who is objective and non-judgemental, and that is a problem.

I mean, of course a T can comment on something that is a matter of basic issues of right or wrong, but casual opining about his family, man, that ain't good in my opinion.

Russ

Thanks Russ. I'm no longer seeing this therapist. It took me a loooong time to realize our interactions had moved from helpful to agonizing for me, but I finally quit a little over a month ago. Unfortunately, he seems to think I quit because he cured me, because I was never able to tell him that I feel like I traded one set of problems for another, worse, problem after 14 months of therapy with him.

Oh ((( STRM ))) I would’ve posted sooner but only just came back to forum. Want to say that this thread isn’t meant to be an indictment of the one you started, there’s a place for BOTH - I reckon none of us has an all bad or all good T so thought it would be a good idea to have a place to express both the good AND the bad stuff without the two sides cancelling each other out or getting us conflicted about it. (For what it’s worth I’ve actually posted twice one after the other in your helpful T thread - and I seem to have killed that thread too :sigh: )

And Monte I hope you don’t feel bad about what you posted - it’s all swings and roundabouts isn’t it - all of us at some time or another are going to feel pain at hearing about other’s good fortune (well I do anyway). But as AG said there’s space for ALL of it on this forum. (Just as well ‘cos I’m in anti-T mode at the moment!)

Now back to venting. That’s a pet hate of mine too, when T acts like I’m saying something for the first time and I just KNOW I’ve already said it. Feeds into my not being listened to/heard set up.

As for being asked what you need in any particular moment I’ve got to throw in my moan about that one too - how can you be expected to tell someone what you need when a big part of what you need is that it has to be initiated by the other person in the first place????

Like for instance (I’m thinking of Monte’s artwork right now and applying it hypothetically to me - sorry Monte it’s just on my mind as something loaded with emotional meaning I don’t mean anything personal by it) showing or telling something you’ve done that you are quite pleased about and T says ok what do you need right now and I’m thinking if I say openly well actually I need you to praise and encourage me about what I’ve done it kind of blows it out the water - what I’m really needing would be a spontaneous expression of praise on T’s part, having to openly ask for it both renders it meaningless because I’ve put words in his mouth and also invalidates the need because it has to be spontaneously given in the first place to actually meet the need, not to mention the whole question of not being able to believe whatever is said if it doesn’t come spontaneously from him in the first place. Like WLOH your example of reassurance - though it sounds like you are getting him trained correctly!

Phew that was a long winded way of saying it, hope it makes sense.

Sometimes I think Ts rather than asking what we need, should use their own skill and empathy and offer a selection of needs that makes it easier to express them, like, would it be ok if I... or, do you need a smile, a hug, some reassurance, a word of praise... something that shows they are in tune with what’s going on in us and are making it safe to acknowledge that we need something.

After all how many of us have any clear idea of what we actually need in any given moment? It’s more like just a vague sense of needing something. And when we do have a clear idea, (like wanting a hug) it’s usually too fraught with fear about boundaries and the like. Or, as AG has described in previous posts, we know already we’re not going to get it so all the pain of expressing a need that won’t be met gets in the way too. Yeah I can just hear Ts saying oh well part of doing therapy is to learn to be able to ask for what you need (and deal with not getting it too), but it sure would help a lot if they showed willingness to get in there with us in the first place and help us express those needs.

Hell even the phrasing could be more helpful - not - what do you need right now - but - do you need something right now?

Sorry guys I’m not being specific here being T-less at the moment so am making generalizations based on things that I’ve found unhelpful with nearly every T I’ve ever seen.

Lamplighter

OK one more:

My P would always "forget" my husband's name. I've been complaining about him for a year and you still can't remember his name?! He always remembered my kids names, so I think this was just passive-aggressive behavior on his part (which became obvious when he rolled his eyes and threw up his hands once when I started talking about him). The message being, "Therapy is about you, not your husband. Stop complaining about your husband already!"

quote:

Not listening for the subtext of what I’m telling them. (This is a biggie and ALL Ts I’ve had are guilty of this one). I’m wanting them to listen out for and ask questions about what I’m struggling to try and tell them and instead they all seem to just hear the words and reply to the content of the words instead of checking with me as to what it’s revealing about me (and specifically, how it makes me feel.)

I suppose that's a tricky one for them, and they are not very well traind at readin our minds. Yes, I noticed my therapist missed out of couple of valuable tracks to follow and sometimes does follow up on something that is not as much relevant, something I didn't really want to talk about and I said it to gather some courage perhaps to proceed to more difficult stuff.

I really hate when my T asks what it would be like to ... this or that, or what was it like to...
I don't fucking know and I don't know how to answer these questions, so I really hate when he comes up with it.

I think sometimes he explains too much, he can go on and on and not in the very right moments. So I told him to stop twice. I think that must have been quite helpful to him

She goes on bloody holiday lol
She's never said ' I care about you '
Oh and the what do you need question.....i hate it

Hev

MH your list of ten burn out signs in a T made me laugh! What’s not so funny is that your T told you s/he is burnt out (I missed that first time I read your post). I put that one up there with some of the MOST ‘unhelpful’ things a T could say. In fact the more I think about it the more a load of conflicting scary and awful feelings come up - I do hope you can sort that comment out with your T.

Oh Hev I get you with the going on holiday bit - I reckon they shouldn’t be allowed to, or at least only when WE go on holiday! But also, I’ve just seen two new Ts one of whom is going to be out of action for quite a long time soon, and the other is off for a week, back for a week then off for another week. Talk about disruptive!

Just musing about unhelpful things some of the new Ts I’ve been seeing have said or done. One of them spent the entire second half of my session glancing at the wall behind me every couple of minutes - at first I thought there must have been some eye catching painting or something there then it dawned on me it was probably a clock. Sure enough at end of session when I turned around there was this enormous clock on the wall. Thanks T for making me feel valued and worth your time!

Another one spent a good part of the session self disclosing in an attempt to convince me to do body massage work - saying how she wished she could do it but she’s not trained in it and actually you really need to find someone you can trust but there’s not a lot of them that are trustworthy and actually she only knows of one she trusts and she is in London and that she really helped T and she really wishes she could do it but she isn’t really trained in it and on and on and on I thought I was repetitive but this one outdid even me. And it was all irrelevant anyway - more of the advice giving that I had NOT gone into therapy for. When I mentioned that she had spent a lot of the time talking about herself she said oh yes I probably shouldn’t have but I did it to help you consider doing this massage work. Hm. Seeing as how she wasn’t offering it, and couldn’t tell me anyone in my area who did, that seemed just a tad pointless (and a waste of my session time.)

And yet another one whom I’d emailed over a week ago finally replies with no reference to the questions I’d asked in my email but saying that we should meet so she can get a background history leading up to my present difficulties. Hm haven’t I just outlined that in my email? I’ve found that the ones who don’t make any specific reference to what I’ve written are the ones who turn out to be the least ‘helpful’ lol. What was worse in this case was that she offered an extended first session and charged pro rata for it. I really got the message that she was more interested in making a buck out of it rather than wasting her precious time thinking about any kind of insightful reply to my original questions. I mean what’s so difficult about answering a question like ‘does your approach include focusing on how I am feeling in the present moment in a session?’

Ok that’s enough I think - I’m sure I’ll come up with a whole lot more when I do finally get back into therapy. Fingers crossed.

Lamplighter

I called him "asshole" last session. That was a big thing for me. And today he says, that I already called him that before two or three times. How can he not remember?! I didn't do that before! Does he take any f...ing notes? I called him bastard (and only on paper), but not an asshole!
Forgetful prick!
(I still love him, adore him etc...)

I have become very dependent on my T. It has taken me a long time to get to the point where I could start bringing my stuff up in sessions. Something I have noticed, and that bothers me sometimes is that many times when I start to say something, or when I am speaking, I hear her voice overtake mine. The conversation then becomes directed away from the statement or point I was making. I thought she was supposed to listen, or at least let me finish talking.

Recently I was discussing some promotions that were being made at work based on a person's sexual orientation, rather than merit, and how it was upsetting to many of us because it wasn't fair. She blurted out, "you could be gay". Where did that come from? Did I touch a sensitive issue for her or something. Am I out of line to think this wasn't appropriate? I don't know if she really thinks I'm gay, or if she was being defensive because of the discussion. If there were some question of my orientation, shouldn't I have brought it up first? Regardless, it didn't seem appropriate or timely. Is this just me? This is hard because I don't want to find out she stepped out of line. I want to trust that she has my better interests at heart. This has really thrown me.
KOI

Koi- I think when we are in therapy we are highly suggestible to whatever the T says. Especially if there is attachment to the t. So they should be careful. not to suggest things that we may then feel compelled at some point to act upon, even if it was something that wasn't really our own life project, just because beloved T suggested it... Does that make any sense? that being said, T's can make mistakes, heaven knows my T makes his share since he can't read my mind (gosh darn it!)and because I can't read his (double gosh darn it!)
It is possible that she was saying this just to let you know that if that was the case she would still accept you? It is very hard to untangle all these things in therapy, especially if you are prone at all to spaciness in sessions as I am at times, so clarity needed to discuss an abstract concept can get really difficult. But, that being said, it still needs to be discussed so you can figure out what she meant...especially since it is bothering you so much. And that is normal part of therapy. Now, will I PLEASE take my own advice? Good to see your post.

BB

Blackbird,
I really appreciate your advice. I just need to retain my confidence in my T so I can remain open to sharing. I have great respect for her. The amount of the confidence and trust we put in them must feel pretty heavy at times. Thank you for your words. It helps me to frame the whole event more realistically I think. They are as human as we are. I like your reference to wishing either side could read minds; a pretty boring experience for her I'm afraid.

Great Thread LampLighter !!!

As a psychotherapist/counsellor, this is very interesting information.

Hello MHP! Welcome to the forums. It's great that you're a therapist yourself, you can give us the view from the other side, so to speak But I am looking forward to hearing of your own experiences in whichever capacity you write. Glad to have you here.

LL

Thank you very much LL!

I am both a T and a patient. When you are in the mental health field, you learn a lot by just being a patient and going through your own issues. This counts as part of your experience as a T (it should anyway ).

Your thread so far seem to have exposed a lot of frustration caused by miscommunication and maybe sometime, some misconceptions between the patient and his/her T.

I've experienced it myself more than once as a patient.

As a T, I'm developing an approach to avoid these confusions to maximize the efficiency of the therapy.

To LL and everybody else, have you ever experienced 'unhelpful things Ts do' to the point where it made you reconsider/question your desire to be in therapy ?

Hi MHP. Welcome. Very excited that you have joined the discussion. I have one issue with my T that has brought me very close to stopping therapy multiple times.

I don't know if this is helpful, but specific to my experience, I spend time after every session trying to remember any indication my T gave that would make it clear to me I am "welcome" to come back. I'm not talking about whether I "should" come back, because that is up to me. I imagine she would tell me if she felt it best to end therapy and I understand it is my responsibility to decide if I want to continue. I have been on the verge of quitting and/or finding another therapist many times as I leave feeling like I am flapping in the wind. There is no closure. I don't expect an "invitation" to come back, but even a summary comment to indicate "we can talk about this next time" or "we've covered a lot important material today" etc., would leave me with some comfort and sense of continuity. Validation?
Thanks,
KOI

Hi KOI,

Hmmm, I don't want to say too much because I don't want my posts to be regarded as formal advice, so please see me more as a patient that has experience with Ts and the Therapies themselves. Having said that I'll try to give you my point of view by putting it in context.

As a patient, I've never really expected too much empathy from my Ts. Instead, I see Ts as 'tools' or 'instruments' that I can use to 'get better'. I've suffered mostly of depression with a really strong sense of loneliness.

Whatever therapy a T chooses to use for treating a patient, there is always an analytical component in the therapy and I was made aware that this is a powerful tool you can use in moments of distress or uncertitude. The great thing about this is that it challenges your own conclusion and gives it some continuity by putting it into perspective.

In your case KOI, I would suggest that you ask yourself "why do I feel the need of having my T giving me a summary comment?" (I'm sure this is a bit more complex than this, but let's just stick to that for now). This might help you find an answer, possibly related to whatever you are suffering from (or not), and it could also turn out to be substance to talk about while you're in a session with your T.

Does it make sense ?

fall asleep, thank you T2, you old shit!! jill

MHP,
Hmmmm. I need to get better at bringing this stuff up with my T. I'm so used to my patterns that I don't think they are of particular importance and don't bring them up. It's hard though; all interconnected and stuff. Obviously I don't always question them myself either.

I really appreciate your thoughtful input. Yes, it makes sense. Hmmm.
Thank you,
KOI

Hey UV,

your experience is a great example. It shows that you have to be 'picky' about choosing the right T to find one that will fit your personality and that it can take a long time. But when you find the right one, Bingo !

When I see new patients, I always explain to them the kind of therapy I would employ to treat them. And I encourage them to do some resarch on it.

For a professional, experience and competence are as important, if not more, than than his or her academic credentials (except for psychiatry which is a bit different).

Hi, MHP- and welcome to the forum. It is nice to see your post! I think it's pretty brave of you to admit you are a T on here! (We promise we son't hold it against you I hope you will find yourself able to post about your own stuff, too, and get some support as well! See you around the forum! Sorry, I just wanted to chime in with the welcome.

In terms of unhelpful things therapist do, well, that is a touch one. I think my therapist is God, you see. But I guess, I find it unhelpful when he always insists on starting every session with "how can I help you" or some such equivalent. It's hard for me to open up, I'd always wished it could be more of an organic and natural discussion. That being said, he insists it is part of the therapy, "I have to learn to ask for what I need." Unfortunatly what I need is for him to stop backing me into a corner and asking me what I need! That's my gripe. I have no idea if I am right or he is. Confusing.

BB

BB

I just want to echo what BB said and say welcome to the forum, MHP. Thanks for saying upfront that you’re a T and a patient.

I’ll have to do some thinking to come up with something that I don’t like about my T…

Hi BB and MacLove. Thanks !

BB, I think it's more complicated than who's right and who's wrong.

I know that in some situations, like meeting with someone special, I tend to be a bit nervous/anxious or just apprehensive. When this happens, I imagine the person is in front of me and I say out loud what I have to tell. A bit like a rehearsal. This helps by noticing my emotions/how I feel, when the words are actually coming out of my mouth.

In your case, your T told you: "You have to learn to ask for what you need". Maybe, you could start by interpreting it as: "You have to learn to ask YOURSELF for what you need". There're 2 things I'd suggest you try: before a session, when you feel comfortable at home, or outside, think about what you need. Once you have established this (if you can), IMAGINE you are in a session with your T. Close your eyes if it helps. Now talk to him. Not in your head, words have to come out of your mouth. Tell him that you thought about 'What I need' and then tell him what you need. When you do this, try to be attentive to how you feel, body reactions, etc... If you think it didn't come out right, no problem, do it again. Do it a few hours later or the next day until you feel comfortable saying it. This is a simple but often effective CBT type of technique.

Now if after trying this, you still can't bring yourself to talk and open up to your T, maybe you could tell him that you're having a hard time talking to him. Don't worry, he won't be offended. Just let him know that for you it is hard to open up and that you need help to be able to do so.

These are just suggestions of course... Let me know what you think.

A few years ago, I had a MASSIVE breakdown. A really big and dark depressive episode. Like, really bad... My GP sent me to see a T that I never met before. I honestly can't remember if I was anxious or not about seeing him because I was in such a bad state. However I remember my GP telling me: 'Tell him everything, don't hold anything back, open the flood gates...". And I did. See, a T is there to help you. He or She doesn't have to be your friend to help you, but like any other professional in the health field, he/she has to know what's going on to be able to help you. A T will not judge you either, no matter what you say. That's not his/her job it wouldn't be useful for the therapy anyway.