quote:

Originally posted by deepfried:
((LG)) I'm sorry you have to make this choice that's awful. I'm glad T1 is being supportive. I can imagine how difficult this is because of the attachment feelings and because of feeling that T2 is a 'more skilled' T (at least that is what you've said at times).

Will T1 still require you see someone in person? Wishing continued low stress and ease for you through this

Thanks, DF.

T1 has not said that she will require me to see someone in person. I know that she would prefer that, but I also know that she isn't going to terminate me if I don't.

Also, T1 told me yesterday that I am doing so well, "the best I've seen in 8 months...I am so happy!", she said. However, I do know that she is very scared about my health and would like it if I allowed my medical doctors to communicate with my therapists. Actually, T2 indicated she would continue working with me while I work with T1 if I allow one of them to be in communication with my doctor's.

But to answer your question about T1, she is putting zero pressure on me right now. She just won a battle with me last week to go on anti-anxiety meds and that conversation was so painful (she cried hysterically)...I don't think she is in a hurry to have another conversation like that.

Sea-green, I love that new smiley too! Thanks for the fun hug.

From what I understand, T2 feels like she is "in the dark" regarding things that are going on in my life, my health status, etc. Keep in mind that she left the country for 5 weeks and just got back last week, so its not like I am shutting her out. I haven't seen the lady, so how I am I supposed to keep her in the loop.

Also, she feels that my relationship with T1 is too close for T1 to be of any help to me. She feels that I am too attached to T1...and that T1 is too attached to me. I don't think that T2 was bothered that T1 was crying last week because T2 cried a bit as well today as she was telling me "I don't want to be having to attend your funeral soon" (because I am facing some very serious medical issues related to my ED). However, her tears were more contained, not any where near the level of emotional involvement that T1 exhibited last week.

I know that T2 has some valid points, but I also believe that she is a bit of a control freak who wants to micromanage my therapy. She doesn't like that when I have a conflict wiht her, I run to T1 to process and vice versa. However, in my defense, I do process things with each of them directly as well.

Oh, and to answer your other question...I don't feel that I need to meet with a T in person. I do long to see T1 in person, give her a hug, smile and laugh with her in person as well as cry in the safety of her presence. And I know she feels limited in some way because of the phone...but the most part, it works. I would like to make a trip to see her sometime later this year, though I fear it will perhaps be more painful for me to see her for that one hour and then have to leave...than to never have seen her at all after all these years. I can't explain why...but it just seems like there will be a lot of build-up of excitement in anticipation and then that one hour will fly by so quickly. And then it will be over. There is something very sad about that to me, and perhaps that is the very reason I stopped going back to see her on my vacations home from college a few years after we terminated my therapy when I was 18.

Hmm I’m not sure I’m doing a very wise thing in posting this, and I want to say in advance that it comes from a place of concern. I actually wanted to post something like it earlier when I read about the way T1 cried hysterically about your ED/health issues and your thread now just spurred me on say this. So I’m sorry in advance for sounding like a doom monger

The huge red flag that is waving at me about your decision to choose T1 is the level of emotional involvement T1 is displaying towards you. All along my impression of your relationship with T1 is that you are much more like friends than client and therapist (and I understand that that is what T2 was saying to you.) There seems to be a lot of personal involvement between you and T1 and I have doubts that such a close personal relationship can be as effective therapeutically in the long run as a more professional one, such as you have with T2. I would be happy to be corrected on this, though.

I also find it a bit disconcerting that T1 is openly supporting you in your decision to choose her, that says to me that she has an emotionally vested interest in your choice and almost shows that she has been effectively trying to ‘win’ your loyalty and commitment exclusively towards her – that ‘cheering you on’ smacks of rivalry and jealousy on her part, is she really supporting you in your choice for YOUR best interests, or in order to get her own emotional needs met, to ‘triumph’ over T2?

Obviously I don’t know anything about how T2 is but from what you say I wouldn’t have thought she is trying to control you as such, I can see that she is delivering this ultimatum out of concern for you.

Oh I’m sorry LG if this is preaching at you or sounding like I’m criticizing, and I do get how the attachment to T1 is so important that T2’s ultimatum just sounded like a spiteful foot stomping ‘if you don’t play by my rules then I won’t play anymore’. I just think this is a very tricky situation and maybe you want to spend a bit more time thinking about your motives and needs and the potential consequences of your choice.

Sorry again for being so negative.

LL

I am concerned because it seems to me from all you have written about T1 is that she is getting some of her emotional needs met by you LG and in the long run that is only going to hurt you. That is my concern. I had a relationship like this with a T a long time ago and trust me when it was over well she didn't have time for me and I felt burned because I thought we were going to be friend because of how much she broke the therapeutic boundaries with me. She hurt me more than anyone I know. WHen Ts get their needs met through their clients it is the client who gets hurt.

LG,

I have to chime in here and add my 2 cents. I agree with the others about the emotional involvement I too have felt from T1.

I don't know if it's like this for you or not, but for me, the fact that I feel some emotional involvement from my own T causes my life to pretty much hang on her responses (or sometimes lack of) to me, and when things are going well (which isn't as often as I think they should) then great, life is okay. Not good, but okay. However, when things with her are NOT good, my life is in the crapper, and my depression gets worse, my mood is awful, and I am consumed with thoughts of the relationship. It is actually really painful, and I wonder how harmful it is for me. If I had an ED, I can imagine that would be easily triggered by my relationship ups and downs with my T. Sometimes I think I need a T who is more detached, like your T2. But I understand the extreme emotional attachment you have to T1. It's SO HARD to have to let go of something that you feel is so precious to you, even if it is not the most helpful/beneficial/healthy thing for you.

Please really give this some serious thought. I too am concerned about you and the seriousness of your health with your ED. You need some serious help with this, with a real live person to person relationship, not one that is long distance over the phone where she only has so much she can do to help you.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. And like the others have said, I'm not judging you over your choice, just saying that I want what's best for you over the long run. You really are stuck in a hard place right now. (((((LG)))))

Hang in there, and please keep posting. Don't isolate yourself. That's the worst thing you could do right now.

MTF

LG,

I can only imagine what a difficult decision this is for you. I share the concerns that LL and DF posted about. And MTF...we cross posted!

quote:

She doesn't like that when I have a conflict wiht her, I run to T1 to process and vice versa.

This has been my biggest concern about this set up all along. It has seemed like there is a great deal of triangulation going on and I'm not sure that is good for the therapy process.

Have you considered perhaps finding a 3rd T and maybe getting a consult about what might serve your needs the best in this situation? I am concerned that T1 is no longer objective and it sounds like you don't really trust T2 so I wonder if a 3rd party might help to sort things out.

Whatever you decide, we will be here to support you. I just don't want to see you get hurt.

Wow oh wow, (((LG))), I do not envy the spot you are in right now. I can see the concerns that others have mentioned about T1, and yet I also sympathize with you wanting to stay with her. Why wouldn't you want to remain with the T with whom you have the most attachment? I certainly don't have all the facts but I am not necessarily convinced that T1's emotional concern for you is self-serving. I believe she genuinely wants to help you. She did finally put her foot down about the meds, even though it caused a rupture. Clearly it was hard for her to do, but she did it because it seemed to be in your best interests. She's a bit more limited in her interactions with you since you don't see her in person, and I think that may be detrimental to you and is frustrating to her as well. So will she be able to help you progress as much as T2 might? The triangulation thing I definitely see is a problem, so it does make sense for T2 to force the issue of choice if having 2 T's is harming more than helping. I can see how you would see that as abandonment or a precursor to it -- I initially had the same thought. But as I think more about it, T2 would not be completely abandoning you because she would be leaving you in the hands of the T of your choice, not leaving you completely alone with no support at all. And she is also willing to be the one whom you choose to stay with. She is just setting a boundary about the way in which she is able to continue giving you her support.

I guess I don't have as much of a definite opinion as some of the others, just sharing my own conflicted thoughts and letting you know I am reading and listening.

Hey everybody, thank you for the feedback and replies. I am not at all offended by anything anyone has said, so no need to worry about having been too honest or appearing critical of T1, etc. This is a tough situation for me and it is hard to see clearly being in the middle of it and I welcome the insight and feedback from all of you.

LL, I hear what you are saying regarding your concern that the level of personal involvement may be too great between T1 and I. I sometimes worry about that as well, though there is that part of me that wants nothing more than to be close with her, so even though it could be dangerous for my therapy in the long run, I cherish the closeness. However, I do want to say something regarding your comment about being concerned about T1 openly supporting my decision to choose her. I need to clarify that this is not the case. What she has said to me all along is that she supports whatever decision I make regarding T2, even if that means terminating with T1. She has not encouraged me to term with T2. However, she has been vocal in saying that she does not agree with some of the decisions T2 is placing upon me. Also, T1 has been supportive of my standing up to T2 on a few issues that have been raised that I feel have more to do with T2s needs than my own. But T1 has never pressured me to continue to work with her. She did express some fears about me firing her last week, but never has she pushed for me to stop working with T2 or to chose T1 over T2. Hopefully that clears some things up.

DF,
It isn't that T1 doesn't want to be in contact with my doctors....but she knows me well enough to know that if she pushes the issue, I will likely quit therapy altogether. I know for a fact that she is terrified for me and feels frustrated that in order to get me to take meds, she had to risk a major rupture with me. (I also want to point out that it was T1 who got me to take the meds, not T2). Anyway, I believe that T1 is feeling like she has just won a major battle with me regarding the meds and doesn't want to push the issue of the doctor contact at this point, though I anticipate it coming up at some point soon with her.

MTF,
I can relate so much to what you wrote about your emotional involvement with your T to cause your life to hang on her responses. I have felt this way a lot with T1. Like last week, for example...when she was an emotional wreck about my health and she was scared I was going to fire her...I saw her as vulnerable and I realized just how much she cared about me. As a result, I felt closer to her than I ever have in the past and I have been on a bit of a therapeutic high the past week with T1...texting day and night ,emailing, her texting me out of the blue to wish me good luck on my job interview, etc. It has felt so amazing. But boy do I fear the day when she is distracted by another client or personal life or not feeling as connected to me as before...it is going to hurt and I will likely go in a downward spiral of anxiety and self-loathing. And it is bound to happen, because after all, we can't get much closer than we already are without violating boundaries...so the only way to go from here is backwards and that scares the shit out of me.

STRM,
I like your suggestion of finding a 3rd T for a consult. Maybe that would be the best solution at this point. I am sure T1 would be fine with it, but I am worried that T2 will be pissed off at me so I would need to check with her first about this.

MH,
I agree with you that T1s emotional concern for me is not necessarily self-serving. I think she cares a great deal for me, but I think it comes from a place of wanting to help me as a professional helping a client and I think her tears are primarily out of frustration of feeling powerless in her ability to help me when I am so far away and refuse to allow my doctors to talk to her (and was refusing meds). But as you said, she put her foot down and got me to a point where I agreed to take meds...which is more than T2 was able to do. I honestly think T2 feels a bit jealous that T1 was able to get me to do that. She sees that T1 has more influence over me and I believe that touches her narcissistic nerves (and yes, I truly do believe that she has some narcissistic tendencies).

However, I also agree with you that T2 is not treating this a termination, per se, but is putting the ball in my court, so to speak. She is giving me the power to choose for myself. But I also believe that she knew I would choose T1, so in a sense, it really wasn't a choice. It was termination masked as a choice.

One thing that really irks me the most about this whole situation is that T2 will not come right out and terminate me. Even when I looked her dead in the eyes and said, "Okay, well I choose T1", she still wouldn't terminate me. Instead she is dragging this out (and costing me more money in the meantime by continuing to meet with her) and wants me to come up with a list of my goals for therapy and how I think I can achieve those goals, who can help me reach those goals, etc. So I see her next Thursday and we will go from there.

Oh, another thing about this that is very upsetting to me is that T2 keeps saying, "I haven't seen you since May! I don't even know what is going on in your life. I am in the dark about your life". and I'm like, "WTF? You were gone for six weeks! How is it my fault that you are in the dark about my life?" and she says, "Well its not..." and I say, "Surely I cannot be the only client that you are in the dark about given how long you were gone." and she said, "That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me. And my other clients aren't in a medical crisis where their lives are at stake". I can see her point to a degree, but I don't think its right to terminate me because she was gone for six weeks. That was her choice. Not mine. Its not like I've intentionally left her in the dark.

I was feeling okay about things yesterday but this morning I woke up feeling really sad about the whole thing. I feel like whenever I let people in close to me, they either physically hurt me, die, or abandon me. I am left wondering, "What is wrong with me??? Why don't people like me when they get close to me?" I told T1 these things this morning and she said to me, "I am going to be very direct here...but this termination is not about you. I wish I could say more, but I am angry and need to watch what I say right now". I'm not going to lie....it felt really good to know that T1 had my back.

I have to admit if i had a T who took a 5 week break I'd be looking for someone else. If she does that regularly then I'd have no problem choosing to leave her. 5 weeks is an awfully long time for a T to go away.

I'm sorry you are going through this LG...I'm not sure if I can really weigh in with an opinion, I'm a bit confused about your situation. I'll give you some of my thoughts and let you decide whether or not to bin them.

I've heard you speak really well of T2 before and that she is a better T with better boundaries than T1. But this has me concerned, that she is forcing your hand. This therapy is primarily *your* process and you are paying for it, so...it seems like she could tell you, kindly and without any judgement or defensiveness, exactly what she sees happening in your treatment as a result of having two T's. She could tell you that it is hindering your treatment, and that she doesn't think you will make steady progress if you choose to continue doing it this way. (if that is her reasoning) It is my opinion that she should stop there, and let you make the decision for yourself, rather than force your hand by giving you ultimatums, who to choose. Even if that is her boundary...that she does not work with clients that are seeing other T's besides her, than it seems she should have said that a lot earlier than now.

All this being said...you have made progress with her, and therapy isn't always so cut-and-dried, as you know. So she might be doing the best she can with what is clearly a complicated and sensitive situation. It makes sense that someone with your issues see someone in person. It does seem strange that she would bring this up after an extensive break. Hm...I hope that the two of you will be able to sort it all out and come to a place of agreement and compromise. I really don't like that she made it about her when she said that...she doesn't know what is going on in your life, and seemed angry when she stated that "other clients do the work with me..." and so on. It just seems like there is a lot of anger in that comment, and it's innappropriate, unless it being used really purposefully with a therapeutic reason.

i really can't see it as a case of one T being "better" or more caring, or more boundaried, or whatever than the other T. All T's are flawed, some more than others..I think it is a case of two flawed T's who do not communicate with eachother about your treatment. (am I wrong about that, forgive me, I cannot remember?) It *seems* they do not communicate with eachother professionally about your treatment, and IMHO they should. Or- would you be able to set up a SKYPE session to discuss this decision three ways with both T's? Just a thought, no idea if you would be able to afford to pay for a session with both T's at the same time or not.

Ultimately this is *your* therapy...I guess that is all I am trying to convey..

hugs, LG,

BB

quote:

I am sure T1 would be fine with it, but I am worried that T2 will be pissed off at me so I would need to check with her first about this.

LG,

That concerns me if she is opposed to a consult. I also agree with L2F that a 5 week break is a LONG time for a T to be away and if it is something done regularly I wouldn't be able to handle that.

I missed the meaning behind this for some reason

quote:

she said, "That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me. And my other clients aren't in a medical crisis where their lives are at stake".

Did she seriously expect you (with a medical crisis that is life-threatening no less) to go for 6 weeks without therapeutic support and just "wait" for her?

quote:

"That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me.

I just re-read and caught this. Is she serious? My T is gone for a little less than 2 weeks and she gave everyone that might need it the name and number of another T that was covering for her and fully sanctioned any necessary treatment/sessions to take place while she was gone. I can't imagine a T expecting someone to just put everything on hold for 6 weeks! I mean if you are able to then fine and dandy, but for those (like me for example) with PTSD etc, it isn't like we get to choose when this stuff comes up!!

((((LG))))

I have a vague memory of you posting awhile back. Something like that if you had to choose, you would pick T2. It sounds like you are leaning more towards t1 now. It does sound like you do have two ts who care deeply about you and the work with you.

it almost sounds like two parents arguing how to parent, but through their child. I wish they could work together as a team to provide the support you need... what a tough choice... I don't have any input to give except that I think you are doing a good job thinking it through. I hope it becomes more clear who is going to be a better fit for you in getting better and living the kind of life you want to live.

So tough to sort out, even when things are not already tough. Hang in there

jane

quote:

Originally posted by Learning2Fly:
I have to admit if i had a T who took a 5 week break I'd be looking for someone else. If she does that regularly then I'd have no problem choosing to leave her. 5 weeks is an awfully long time for a T to go away.

L2F, it was honestly not as bad as I thought it would be. It turned out to be six weeks that we went without seeing each other because when she came back from her vacation, I was too busy preparing my design portfolio for a job interview to meet with her.

However, if I had not had T1 during those six weeks, it would have been awful. I don't know how T2 can honestly think she can take trips that long and not have it impact the rapport she has established with her clients.

quote:

Originally posted by scaredtoriskmyself:

quote:

"That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me.

I just re-read and caught this. Is she serious? My T is gone for a little less than 2 weeks and she gave everyone that might need it the name and number of another T that was covering for her and fully sanctioned any necessary treatment/sessions to take place while she was gone. I can't imagine a T expecting someone to just put everything on hold for 6 weeks! I mean if you are able to then fine and dandy, but for those (like me for example) with PTSD etc, it isn't like we get to choose when this stuff comes up!!

STRM,
T2 didn't even discuss with me how her being gone for so long was making me feel before she left for her trip. Nor was it discussed when she came back. I tried to bring it up with her before she left,but she changed the subject. It was as though she was completely oblivious as to how this might affect her clients. Whereas when T1 leaves town for a week, she talks about it with me beforehand, lets me know her travel schedule, when she will be more available during her trip and which days she may be more difficult to reach. I feel so much more cared for when she leaves town than when T2 does.

quote:

Originally posted by janedoe:
((((LG))))

I have a vague memory of you posting awhile back. Something like that if you had to choose, you would pick T2. It sounds like you are leaning more towards t1 now. It does sound like you do have two ts who care deeply about you and the work with you.

it almost sounds like two parents arguing how to parent, but through their child. I wish they could work together as a team to provide the support you need... what a tough choice... I don't have any input to give except that I think you are doing a good job thinking it through. I hope it becomes more clear who is going to be a better fit for you in getting better and living the kind of life you want to live.

So tough to sort out, even when things are not already tough. Hang in there

jane

Jane,
You are correct...at one point a while back, I was thinking I would choose to work with T2. Our relationship was growing at that time and I was seeing that she is more skilled as a therapist. However,so much has happened between then and now that has me thinking that what may ultimately be more important to me is having a therapist that I feel truly cares about me, someone that I trust isn't going to abandon me, and unfortunately, I don't feel that way with T2.

I feel as though even IF I chose to work with T2 over T1 at this point,I am always going to be in fear that T2 is going to threaten me with termination again at some point because if she's done it once, she will do it again. T1 has never mentioned terminating me and she has repeatedly assured me that she will never terminate my therapy. I'm finally at a point where I believe her. I know how stressed she is in dealing with me right now given my medical issues, yet she has not given up on me. I feel that if she were going to give up on me, we've reached the point where she would have done so already....but she didn't, and my trust with her is so solid. I can't walk away from that, even if T2 has more "skills".

Also, I have been seeing more skills from T1 that I hadn't been seeing three or four months ago. She isn't at the level that T2 is at, but it isn't as though she is completely incompetent either. She's learning what works with me, what doesn't, etc. and our work is becoming deeper and more complex.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
I missed the meaning behind this for some reason

quote:

she said, "That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me. And my other clients aren't in a medical crisis where their lives are at stake".

Did she seriously expect you (with a medical crisis that is life-threatening no less) to go for 6 weeks without therapeutic support and just "wait" for her?

Yes, I do think she expected me to just wait for her to do the work. I'm telling you...she has some narcissistic tendencies that show up in subtle ways, this being one of them. I truly believe that she is jealous that T1 and I are so close and she wants to get rid of T1 so that T2 can become my "primary" source of support.

quote:

i really can't see it as a case of one T being "better" or more caring, or more boundaried, or whatever than the other T. All T's are flawed, some more than others..I think it is a case of two flawed T's who do not communicate with eachother about your treatment. (am I wrong about that, forgive me, I cannot remember?) It *seems* they do not communicate with eachother professionally about your treatment, and IMHO they should. Or- would you be able to set up a SKYPE session to discuss this decision three ways with both T's? Just a thought, no idea if you would be able to afford to pay for a session with both T's at the same time or not.

Beebs,

You are right. All Ts have flaws. For me, it comes down to what is MOST important for me in my therapy,what is something that I MUST have in a T and what can I NOT tolerate. For me, that most important thing to have is trust and not being abandoned, and unfortunately, with T2...I just don't have that. I do feel that she not only abandoned me by being gone so long and not even talking with me about how it made me feel, but then threatening me with termination for her being out of the loop when she came back. It just feels like crazy behavior on her part. It reminds me of the sort of chaos I grew up with in my childhood. I was constantly being punished for things that felt like they were beyond my control, and this feels similar to me. I cannot help that T2 went away for so long. I cannot help that she is feeling in the dark with regards to my medical issues because we were not in contact during those six weeks. Her feeling in the dark is a direct consequence of HER actions. I'm not trying to punish her...I intended to bring her up to speed as soon as we started meeting again, but before I even had a chance to do that, she was talking termination. That's honestly so ridiculous and unfair in my opinion.

I have noticed that sometimes some (perhaps a very small minority) of ts with tons of technique and skill are also almost arrogant or like insecurely threatened that someone wo those sills could help too - that therapy is about mmore than a skill a t brings but the skills used to develop that solid relationship.

Being gone for 6 weeks alone is tough, and imho, it is so healthy to reach out for support elsewhere. It is very self centered, and id even say bad technique probably, for your t to expect you to just wait for 6 weeks...

I can identify with your fear with t2 and termination, abandonment now... i have wondered, could I feel secure again with my t knowing she could so quickly go to the option of termination agaim and I don't know, but I know it would take a lot of work.

Dang, I wish t1 was closer to you so you could see her in person.

If you were to choose either and then let's say your needs shifted... can you go back to the other?

What if you were to give things a try with just t1, and see how it goes with your healing, then down the road if you needed someone more in person, could you then go to t2? Eh that might be the hardest option.

I do find it frustratingly self centered and bossy and just icky to have the break for so long and your t2 to not expect you to get support elsewhere. I wonder how much she understands how much any relationship, espeically a theraputic one, can potentially be affected by that and by threats of termination.

And it feels like parents arguing over custody with their child. T2 sounds really insecure or at least I don't understand quite how your relationship with t1 could be so threatening to your progress with her. Some ts thinks having two ts is a bad idea and yeah it can be, and other times it is standard or very common (like in iops or dbt therapies). I dunno, I don't understand it all very well.

If you think t1 will be more help to you now, id say go for it. Perhaps then if you need more support in person t1 can help sort that out too.

JD,

I like your suggestions of seeing if it would be a possibility to go back to T2 at some point down the road if things don't work out with T1.

And you are so right on target with your assessment that this is similar to two parents arguing over custody of their child, though it doesn't feel like either one is really arguing for custody of me per se, but are instead just saying they don't want to be my "parent" if the other one is going to be in the picture, or at least that is what T2 is saying.

I spent some time thinking about this today as I drove to Denver to go to dinner with a friend and had some time in the car to do some thinking. What I realized is that if I am being completely honest with myself, I do not think I can work with T2 anymore. I feel that the relationship has been too damaged. So picking her as my sole therapist is totally out of the question and even if she agrees to continue to work with me while I work with T1, I just don't think it will be as helpful as it has been in the past because now I have a huge wall up and see her as 1. not liking me 2. thinking I am too much to handle 3. able to pick up and leave for 6 weeks without being concerned about my well-being and 4. being able to terminate at the drop of a hat. I don't see how I get past these things. They are going to affect my therapy ...therapy which costs me $3 a minute and I don't know that I am willing to fork over that kind of money for therapy that is riddled with anxiety, fear of abandonment, and lack of trust.

So I guess what I am saying is that when I see T2 on Thursday, regardless of what decision she has made or what she wants to spend my therapy discussing, I feel that I need to terminate my therapy with her. I feel it is better to do so now while we can do it on relatively good terms rather than drag things out over weeks or months until hostility and resentment grows, perhaps on both sides.

I also want to add that the most upsetting aspect of this situation is the feelings of inadequacy and failure I am left with. I felt like I was working really hard in my therapy and making progress. I was feeling optimistic about the direction things were headed in. Despite the medical issues I am facing, my ED behaviors ahve improved significantly. Unfortunately I'm dealing with the medical reprocussions of them, but the behaviors themselves have decreased tenfold.

Yet I am getting the message from T2 that I'm not good enough. I'm not meeting her standards. I'm a therapy reject. I feel like I have failed, and now I am feeling very discouraged about my ability to get healthy.

I had been looking forward to T2 coming back from her trip so I could share with her all of the progress that I made while she was gone...specifically that finally after a year of being laid off, I put together my design portfolio and went out on a job interview and have been called back for a second interview. This was HUGE! She had been trying to get me to find my motivation to get back into design, but I was too depressed, and finally, I am coming out of the darkness...and I was so excited to share that with her. But now I just feel silly because instead of being excited or praising the progress I've made, she expressed disappointment in me as a client. I felt sort of like a kid coming home from school to show their mom their report card with straight As and one B...and instead of getting praise, they are sent to their room without dinner for getting that one B. It crushed me.

You are not a therapy reject...unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have handled this very well, and it doesn't make you the wrong one.

I think it is great that you made such awsome progress on your design portfolio while she was gone. I find myself kinda hoping that you will bea ble to work it out with her, but at the same time I understand how hurtful her behavior is and that would make me pretty distrustful too. I just don't think T's should push agendas on clinets. I tend to think that T's should *never* push their own agenda on clients, unless they are so committed that they are really not going to be taking long breaks and put their clients through that ckind of abandonment turmoil. 6 weeks really is an awfully long time for a T to vacation, IMO, and if she is taking clients with serious issues, then IMO a T should not do that, without setting up some serious support for her clients in between. That is just me.

Don't let her take your successes away from you, if possible. Just see if you can repair, andif not, move on and find a T who can be a bit more committed and non-defensive.

Aw...I'm so sorry you are going through this. ((((LG))))

BB

((((( LG )))))

You’ve made it much clearer what is going on with and how you feel about T2 and I understand very well now why when she delivered her ultimatum that you could wholeheartedly choose T1. I still have reservations about T1’s emotional involvement, but you seem VERY clear about that being a fundamental therapeutic need in you that she is meeting, and you also strike me as having thought deeply about this and are being very clear sighted about it all. I’d like to apologize for assuming otherwise

The way you describe how you now feel about T2 does sound like it would be impossible for you to continue with her anyway, regardless of T1’s presence. Agreed that 6 weeks is a long time for a T to clear off, but even worse is that she expected you to just to cope during that time, waiting like a powerless child for big mommy to get back (I could be reading stuff into this, but that’s how it came across to me.) And I’m really sorry how she made you feel by instead of being open to hearing about how you’ve been and being supportive and enthusiastic about your new job, she jumped straight in with what amounted to criticisms and demands of you.

Your description of her makes ME want to run away from her, so all credit to you for being so reasonable and rational about it all. Whatever you decide (and it sounds like this is a time of big changes for you) I want to wish you all the best.

LL

LG, I barely know you and yet I'm extremely proud of you for putting together your design portfolio and going on an interview!! Job well done! You CAN feel good about it, without T2 praising you. I'm sorry it hurts! Thinking about you!

Beebs,
Thank you for saying that I am not a therapy reject.

I think it is interesting your use of the word, "agenda" when you mentioned Ts pushing their own agendas. I hadn't thought of it like that, but that really is what it feels like to me. Its like T2 is set on one way of doing things,even IF my way of doing things has been yielding progress. That makes me feel as though she cares more about being in control than she does about my progress.

LL,
Yes, you are correct, I have thought deeply about this and for the most part, am being clear-sited....however, I do fear that my emotional connection with T1 may be clouding my judgement to a degree. I know that T2 has valuable skills to offer me, but I don't know that any of that matters if I dont' have the trust and safety component of therapy. I suppose of there were no T1,I'd be more willing to stick things out with T2 and see if we can repair the relationship....but having this intense bond with T1...I guess keeping that is worth throwing away the good work I do with T2. I hope I don't come to regret this down the road.

Ninn,
Thank you for being proud of me! It was really hard work for me to stay motivated long enough to complete my design portfolio. It really boosted my self-confidence to get it done.


I have been exchanging some texts today with T1 about this situation with T2 and how I am feeling abandoned and rejected once again in my life. T1 is very mad that I am not being given credit by T2 for all of the progress I've been making recently. And having known me for 19 years, she is frustrated to see that once again, someone is telling me that I am too much for them to deal with. T1 sent me a text that said, "I will never give up on you!" and I wrote her back and said, "I know. And I finally believe you when you say that. If that sentence were a blanket, I would wrap myself up in it forever. " and she wrote back, "That touches my heart. Wrap it up all around you." I felt like I was in an imaginary cocoon of safety and trust after we exchanged those texts. Felt so warm and fuzzy inside. I'll never have that with T2. Never.

((((LG)))))

I haven't weighed in yet because I don't know what to say about this horrendous decision you have been forced to make. T2 came back from vacation with this demand (bright side T's DO think about us when they are on vacation) and it seems awfully unfair. It was as if she decided while on vacation that this is what had to be done and made no attempt to reconnect with you when she came back. I can't even comment on the 6 week gap while she was away because I struggle with one week gaps and 6 weeks would absolutely kill me and the relationship.

However, I'm concerned like everyone else about T1's emotional involvement with you and am just wondering if you have to sever that relationship completely in order to satisfy T2? I know you've already decided that you can't work with T2 anymore but I'm just throwing that out as something to think about.

((((HUGS)))

Liese

Liese,

I don't think I have to completely sever my relationship with T1 at this point to satisfy T2. She seemed open to the idea of me continuing to work with T1 but said they would have to have much more frequent contact...which T1 doesn't want because she thinks things work better when they do not have contact. Also,she doesn't seem to like T2 much.

Also, T2 is pushing for me to have at least one of my Ts in contact with my medical doctors. She seemed to think she would be more willing to continue working with me if I would allow T1 to talk to my doctors. (i think she was pushing for T1 to talk to them because she knows I have more trust with T1 and might be more wiling to allow her to talk to my doctors than to have t2 talk to them).

So, its not like T2 is saying, "absolutely under no circumstances can I work with you while you continue to work with T1", but she did say that she doesn't like the current setup and that she feels it would be unethical of her to not tell me that this is not in my best interest. She said it is her obligation to tell me this. She said that at some point, she may have to say that she can no longer work with me.

She wanted me to chose just one therapist when I saw her on Thursday but I was very clear that if I am given that ultimatum, I chose T1. I'm not sure what T2 thought I would say. Maybe she thought I would at least take some time to think about it. I tried getting her to give me very clear terms as to what the ultimatum was. She was so vague and seemed to be changing her mind by the minute.

I told her, "Look, if you are wanting me to beg you to be my therapist, that is never going to happen. I like working with you, I have gotten a great deal out of my therapy with you, but I will not put myself in a position where I am begging someone to be a part of my life". I guess I was feeling that she wanted me to convince her not to give up on me...but Eff that! If she's got one foot out the door,I'm just going to close the door.

((((LG)))))

Wow. I am amazed that you actually said what you did to T2 that you're not going to beg her to be your therapist. So much more strength than I have. How did she react to that?

((((LG)))
I know this can not be easy at all for you. I too applaud you for putting your portfolio together! And an interview?! That is wow. No way I could do that in the state I've been in. I can't quite grasp why T2 would not be pleased with your progress.

My 2 cents (take em or leave em, I won't take it personally!) The position I am in right now, I'm so glad that my doctors speak to each other - it started with my T and Pdoc, then expanded to my T and Pdoc, and T and general doc, then it finally expanded so that my T, GP, and nutritionist are all in communication.

For me, I need it that way. It takes the pressure off of me to relay info between the three of them. Actually, the only way I ended up agreeing to see a nutritionist is because BOTH my T and my GP strongly encouraged it. My GP has been suggesting it for years, but I never really cared. When my T jumped on board with that idea, well, since I was hearing it from both of them, I listened.

I know they have my whole-body health in mind, I like that they are communicating and working together to ensure that I get the most and best support I can. I also know that with my T, I can talk with her about anything, and have the time to do so. When I see my GP, I don't have the 45 minutes twice a week, so I don't like to go into long details with her. If my T is concerned about something, she then contacts my GP, and the two of them think about stuff, and generally my T is the one that fills me in, and works through whatever it is with me. It's more as if both my GP and the nutritionist report to my T, who then helps me through whatever it is.

Just something to consider?

Anyway - whatever you end up deciding, we're here for you. And please, keep us posted on the interview!!

quote:

Originally posted by Liese:
((((LG)))))

Wow. I am amazed that you actually said what you did to T2 that you're not going to beg her to be your therapist. So much more strength than I have. How did she react to that?

I was amazed at my strength as well. I think if this would have come up before her trip, I would have been more fragile.

She said she didn't want me to beg her to be my therapist, but that she just feels that I need to make a choice because the current situation isn't working. And then I said, "You mean it isn't working for YOU". And she disagreed and said it isn't working for me.

I said, "So if you don't want me to beg you to be my therapist, what is it you want from me going forward? I've told you that if you are forcing me to choose, I choose T1. So what else needs to be discussed?" Then she said she wanted me to think about my goals for therapy and to think about what has helped me in my therapy with her and what hasn't helped. I said, "THIS isn't helping" and she smiled and said , "Why don't you take some time to think about it. Take this week to think about what your goals are for therapy and who you think can best get you there". I felt like she was saying, "T1 can't get you where you need to be and the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be", but I may have been reading into that.

Oh,another thing that came up with T2 is that she feels like I am abivilant about my therapy. I stood up to her on that and pointed out that I spend 3 hours every week at $3 a minute in my therapy with her and that I don't know how much more committed to therapy I could be short of moving in with her. I said that its an insult to have taken that much money from me and then sit there and tell me that I'm not committed to my therapy. When I told T1 that I said that to T2, T1 said, "Good for you!! I'm really proud of you for standing up to her". I was too. I felt like T2 must be smoking crack to think I can spend $600 a week on my therapy with her and not be committed. WTF?!

Ugh. I am getting all worked up again.

quote:

Originally posted by Room2Grow:
((((LG)))
I know this can not be easy at all for you. I too applaud you for putting your portfolio together! And an interview?! That is wow. No way I could do that in the state I've been in. I can't quite grasp why T2 would not be pleased with your progress.

My 2 cents (take em or leave em, I won't take it personally!) The position I am in right now, I'm so glad that my doctors speak to each other - it started with my T and Pdoc, then expanded to my T and Pdoc, and T and general doc, then it finally expanded so that my T, GP, and nutritionist are all in communication.

For me, I need it that way. It takes the pressure off of me to relay info between the three of them. Actually, the only way I ended up agreeing to see a nutritionist is because BOTH my T and my GP strongly encouraged it. My GP has been suggesting it for years, but I never really cared. When my T jumped on board with that idea, well, since I was hearing it from both of them, I listened.

I know they have my whole-body health in mind, I like that they are communicating and working together to ensure that I get the most and best support I can. I also know that with my T, I can talk with her about anything, and have the time to do so. When I see my GP, I don't have the 45 minutes twice a week, so I don't like to go into long details with her. If my T is concerned about something, she then contacts my GP, and the two of them think about stuff, and generally my T is the one that fills me in, and works through whatever it is with me. It's more as if both my GP and the nutritionist report to my T, who then helps me through whatever it is.

Just something to consider?

Anyway - whatever you end up deciding, we're here for you. And please, keep us posted on the interview!!

R2G,

I get what you are saying and that is a big part of T2s argument...that she wants my "team" of people to be more of a team. She said its very fragmented at the moment. I get what she is saying, but its not like I'm not allowing her to talk to T1. Its only my medical doctors that I don't want them in contact with. To be honest, I am afraid that if they talk to my medical doctors, T2 is going to term me anyway because she will realize just how much of a liability I am and T1 will have a total meltdown because it may be too much for her to take in. I'm afraid they are going to end up having me put into inpatient treatment someplace or institutionalize me to keep me alive.

LG, I may be way out of line in saying this, but I keep being struck by how much power you have in the ways you stay in control of these relationships - i.e. refusing ultimatums, refusing contact between Ts and med doctors, refusing to beg, even having two Ts - which allows you to retreat from one and draw on the other when you need to.

I'm not about to suggest that any of that is bad. I work in similar ways in my relationships - never too many eggs in one basket, never chase or beg and so on. But I sort of wonder about it, because it's set up like the threat is the Ts, the doctors, what they might do if they had information or you depended on them or they had the power. But it seems to me that the threat is really the eating disorder. Maybe that's where the real power struggle is, the truly scary enemy.

Take care,
Jones

Jones,

Yes,my need to control is definitely a big issue. I grew up in a chaotic environment and didn't have much control over some of the things I endured. Thus began my eating disorder.

I do want to clarify though that I have never had an issue with my two Ts talking. It does cause some anxiety at times, but I have allowed them to communicate with one another from the beginning. It is only the medical doctors that I don't like them talking to. Still, that stems from my control issues.

Well, given that you feel those control issues strongly, I think it's an awesome achievement that you have allowed them to communicate in this way. It speaks volumes about your ability to open things up towards healing.

J

Well now I am really confused as to what to do. I had an appointment with T1 this morning at 9. She has been chronically late the past few months. Its gotten to the point where it is happening almost every session. She rarely apologizes for it and it is starting to make me think that this her subconscious saying that she doesn't like working with me.

Its downright embarrassing when she is late so much. Today it was so embarrassing to me that when she finally texted me 15mins after the hour to tell me she is available to take my call now, I was too embarrassed and hurt to pick up the phone and call. SoI simply skipped my appointment. She expressed some annoyance with me via text for over-reacting to this and pointed out that she has a packed schedule. I said that I know,and generally I understand but the timing was not good with all that I am dealing with with T2 lately (feeling rejected and worthless).

So now I'm wondering if I am making a mistake in picking her as my therapist given how unreliable she can be. Sure, she will never terminate my therapy and will never give up on me (which she pointe out yet again this morning), but it doesn't feel good to be so unimportant that she allows other clients' appointments to spill into mine or is simply late coming back from lunch or late coming into work. Its not like this is just happening occassionally. Its chronic.

But on the flip side, she is often available to me a great deal in her personal time, on weekends, and evenings, etc. So I know I shouldn't be making a big deal of this. I suppose I can see how she would think I'm being ungrateful and over-reacting.

So what would I rather have....a therapist who is willing to terminate me at the drop of a hat but is always on time for appointments....or a therapist who will never term me and will always be there for me but is chronically late for appointments, and worse yet..she isn't the least bit apologetic about it. ?????????? Can I throw them both back and "go fish" for a new therapist???

I can relate to the chronically late thing with my own T (and the extra care he gives which makes it worth it to me). My T's flakey-ness around scheduling irritates my H, but knowing the same thing applies to me (I get extra time from him and it only doesn't affect others because I'm usually his last appointment) makes it easier for me to just see it as part of who he is and accept the costs along with the benefits. Now, if I had daytime sessions and a job or plans to get to myself, it would be a different story.

I really don't know. I don't think I could handle therapy that was just over phone/text/email. Too much room for projections for me. Also, your T1 obviously cares, but has been so emotional lately. Then, T2 was callous in the way she returned from her vacation. Obviously and naturally, feeling cared for and secure is very important, but from your past posts, that support alone doesn't seem to foster the growth you have in the more challenging aspects of your therapy with T2 (perhaps it is skill or style or just the distance). It would be nice if we had perfected our T-DNA splicing technique already, because the two-T dynamic seems to be creating an atmosphere of conflict in this case. I guess I'm being pretty useless, summarizing what you already know...sorry. (((LG)))

Thanks, Yaku.

The phone therapy stuff isn't an issue for me,but yeah, there IS a lot of room for projections when it comes to texting.

T1 does care about me, but I am finding that she is totally closed off to criticism to the point that she is hyper-defensive. I expressed some hurt that she is chronically late to my appointments and she got very angry with me today and said she is not going to be used as a punching bag and will not get into a power struggle with me. I feel frustrated because I ended up aplogizing for having said anything at all about the being late thing, but where do I put these feelings if I am not allowed to express them with her? Well...I stuff them down with food and then purge. This is not healthy for me. It doesn't seem right for her to be so angry with me for expressing how I feel, but I am so afraid of losing her that I feel that I had to apologize and take everything back. It sucks and doesn't feel good to me.

I am considering starting from scratch...shopping around for a new therapist. T2 feels too unsafe as far as potential for termination....and T1....well, today it reminds me of an abusive relationship I was in years ago where I was constantly apologizing and pushing aside my emotions because I wanted to keep peace.

Whatever you decide we will support you...I think it is wrong for T1 to not accept your emotions. My T was often late for sessions or a couple of times canceld or missed them, forgot the time. On the flip side he often went overtime with me, so that made it a little easier to accept, I suppose. I still needed a clearer boundary on the time issue. But I never felt like I could ask for that, I was thinking if I did he would just be defeinsive about it.

If I ever went to therapy again, I would choose a T with really strong boundaries. Problem is, it is hard to figure out if they do, until you are already deep into the therapy, I suspect. oh, I am sorry it is so hard. I hope both T's will get their act together.