I'm so sorry Liese... Did your T talk more about this stuff? Have you discussed sexual feelings with him? It's very hard when a T gives something and then takes it away and it's understandable you'd be so hurt Did he explain anymore or could you communicate your feelings about the change? When did he tell you?

I forget the level of touch you had with your T but I'm very sorry that he is withdrawing.

((Liese))

I'm sorry that T has backtracked on the issue of trust and I can see why you feel rejected by it. I hope you can talk his decision more so you can understand his reasons and he can hear your feelings about his choice. I also hope you can find a way to feel safe with your T whether or not there is touch involved.

thinking of you,

I haven't been able to get back here yet to reply but I will later. Just wanted to thank everyone for your support and let you know that I"m doing a bit better this morning. Not sure what I will do about my appointment on Thursday. I know it's his boundary. The question I need to figure out now is, is it truly a need for me? Or is it something I can learn to live without? Part of me thinks it's truly a need.

I feel like he doesn't trust me. I also think it must have been something I said that made him change his mind. I have been confessing most of my random thoughts and feelings for him - which all seem to lose their intensity the minute they come out of my mouth.

I actually asked him if it was something I said and he made a funny face like, well, sort of but didn't answer me directly.

Uggggghhhhh, I hate that something like this could come between he and I and this otherwise great relationship we have built.

Liese....sorry you are feeling this way, but glad to hear you are a bit better. It is never a good or nice place to be in when you are feeling rejected. My T and I have never discussed touch nor have we ever touched. I have been thinking a lot about it actually how strange it really is as I feel so close to this person, but yet I don't even think we shook hands initially on our first meeting. It's strange actually, the "greeting" or lack there of at our sessions is ALWAYS akward for me, but yet I don't feel akward with him at all at any time during our sessions. I guess at some point, as we start to tackle stuff that I haven't been ready to up to this point, my feelings may change, but for now, I feel grateful that I haven't had to be in the position your in. My heart goes out to you and I hope that working through it with your T is another opportunity to bring your relationship to the next level....which always in my experience has meant another level of healing.

I think your last line about hating that this could come between you, might also work by just changing the perspective a little to read like this.....I hate the agony this is causing me right now, but hope that this could strengthen an already great relationship! That's my hope for you Liese...Hugs, Hals

Hey Liese. Sorry this is so painful for you :-( I so think T's tend to get even more nervous about touch when there has been erotic transference going on, as I think has been the case with you. I know that doesn't make it any easier.

One thing I've read about was that some T's who won't touch their clients as a rule will help them work on touch issues and getting safe and good types of touch other people. For example, they would let their client bring in a friend or spouse and practice receiving touch from that person, like hugs or whatever. I don't know if that would be something you are interested in, but if you really don't get any nonsexual touch in your life, if might be worth thinking about.

(((CAT)))(((COGS)))(((MONTE)))) (((DRAGONFLY)))((((BG))))(((HALS)))(((BLT))))

Thanks for all the sympathy. It IS a very difficult place to be in.

The thing is, I never would have asked my T for touch. Never in a million years. About a year and a half ago he announced out of the blue that he doesn't hug or hold hands. I was mortified. I felt like I must be presenting as a leaky bucket with all these needs flowing out and he felt like he had to draw a line in the sand. And I was gross and repulsive.

Then we had some difficulties in our relationship and after things really got ironed out, he initiated it almost a year ago.


I had some difficult feelings of powerlessness around it all because he made the announcement that mortified me and then did a 180 on his own about 9 months later (which I was happy with but still) - all without any input from me or asking for it. I talked to him about these feelings thinking we would work it all through. And when I asked, he told me I could initiate. Then I asked again and he told me he hadn't changed his mind about it when I asked.


But he seemed to stop using touch altogether and when I asked him the next time, he said he would use touch occasionally. It came up at this point again because I was dealing with some difficult feelings at home in response to a question he asked me to think about. I wanted to share the response with him but not if he's going to stare at me.

I don't know about anyone else but my pain is searing and intense and gripping. It's hard enough for me to experience it alone much less with another person.

He doesn't shake any woman's hand or touch any of his women clients. I know this. It's not me. It's just that I would feel really vulnerable sharing those deep feelings with him without any physical contact and it would mean so much to me for him to do it. Why he can't put a hand on my shoulder or something like that honestly is beyond me.

As for the erotic transference, there is a thread of that involved. But I think there are about 5 or more threads at work here. The touch would help me feel safe and connected. It would feel comforting. It would give me something I didn't get from my parents. It would teach me nonsexual touch. It would make me feel even more bonded to him than I am. And yes, he's cute as hell. But do we rule it out because we are going to focus on one thread and ignore the 6 other benefits?

I am really struggling with this. The problem goes beyond the current scenario. His attachment style is avoidant. Mine probably started out as preoccupied. This is the dance that he and I do. I will always want to move closer and he will always pull away - creating longing and powerlessness in me. His attachment style is going to rub up against mine and pick at my wounds. He understands this now and is trying his hardest to be open and inviting and emotionally available to me. I'm just worried that sitting alone with those feelings will be more traumatizing than healing. I'm trying to protect myself.

I mean, why not just go to someone else who has a more secure or preoccupied attachment style? Why torture myself with an avoidant? (No offense intended to my dear friend, Avoidant.)

(((Liese))) I can only imagine how hard this is for you. Touch is also really powerful and important to me too, but I never experienced erotic transference with my T, mine was more maternal so I am not sure about the complexities of your T holding you if you are both aware of it. I do know that touch somehow makes things feel safer and more accepting. Wish I could help you. Regaradless of erotic transference you do need to be held when you are feeling vulnerable, because yes, I can imagine how triggering that avoidance and distance would be. Wish I could give you a hug.



B2W

(((MONTE))))

I'm not sure he is aware of how much pain it is causing me and he doesn't seem to be very creative. I was actually thinking about that today. He gets stuck in a groove: now he's in the no touch groove. I was actually crying to him on the phone, why can't we focus on a solution together instead of focusing on what we can't have?

So, on Monday, I suggested that we sit on the floor perpendicular to each other. He looked a little shocked as if he'd never considered it before or done it before. But he agreed to do it. It was interesting but I'm not sure I want to do it again.

I wanted to try to research different positions (Haha) in therapy but couldn't really come up with the right wording but believe it or not here is what I found:

The article is 22 pages long. I'm only copying the title and the relevant paragraph:

quote:

The Therapeutic Relationship As The Foundation for Treatment with Adult Survivors of Sexual Abuse
Karen A. Olio & William F. Cornell

This is from page 10 and 11 or 11 and 12.

quote:

Use of Touch
The intentional use of touch by the therapist is a controversial and sensitive issue in psychotherapy. This is especially true in working with survivors of childhood abuse whose history of touch is a negative one in which touch has been sexualized, intrusive, and in some instances assaultive. Although it is not essential that the therapist directly touch a client in order to attend to or alter the emotional processes that emerge in treatment, the skillful use of direct physical contact with victims of sexual abuse can, in many instances, offer a powerful treatment intervention.

The appropriate use of touch, within the context of an ongoing therapeutic relationship, can offer contact, provide nurturing, convey safety, and encourage increased self-awareness. Physical contact can facilitate a deepening of the client's affective experience and provide a connection to the trauma experiences that may be difficult to achieve with words alone. Within the context of the therapeutic relationship, the client can experience respectful, engaging touch in sharp contrast to the abusive, uncontrollable touch associated with the original trauma.

Touch used as a therapeutic intervention covers a wide spectrum of techniques. Therefore, the question of which uses of touch are most effective in the treatment of abuse victims becomes an important one. While numerous specialized therapies (Boadella, 1987; Lowen, 1975; Reich, 1961) offer approaches which are body-centered and use therapeutic touch as a matter of course, more conventional psychotherapies provide no systematic approach for the use of touch by the therapist. Goodman & Teicher (1988), however, suggest a useful characterization of therapeutic touch based upon its intent, as being either holding or provoking. "Soft" body-centered techniques (Smith, 1985), such as supportive touch, calling attention to posture and sensations in specific areas of the body, deepened breathing, and eye contact, fall within the first category of "holding" touch. These forms of touch heighten self-awareness and, when used as an extension of the therapeutic relationship, are the most appropriate for survivors.

Other touch/body-centered techniques that are intended for mobilizing or provoking tend to focus on expression and are often overly stimulating and too intrusive for survivors, and can cause a replay of the original trauma (Cornell & Olio, 1991). The use of therapeutic touch is not appropriate for all clients, and each case must be individually evaluated. Any use of touch, of course, must be mutually agreed upon as part of a broader treatment contract that supports the client's prerogative to reconsider and/or decline the use of touch at any point.

I wanted to find out more about the authors and found that William F. Cornell actually did a presentation on the Ethics of Touch. If anyone is interested in reading it, here is the link:

The Ethics of Touch

I worked myself into a tizzy today. Several times I thought I was going to pass out. I realized that was me trying to suppress my anger, the anger that was too threatening to feel.

I decided to let myself just be angry at T. My feelings were so intense that I wasn't sure I could face him tomorrow. So, I decided to leave him a voicemail.

It was more like rage actually. I left him a voicemail telling him how I felt. I don't know if I will hear from him tonight because he is off today as it turns out. But, it was so freeing to express how I felt. I wasn't mean. Just said how I felt. I hope my newfound peace stays for a while.

Thanks for listening.

Glad you got to express how you feel Liese It's VERY freeing to SAY what we need to, it also makes sure that it will be included in your next session (hopefully) so you guys can work through some of that.

(((CAT)))(((MONTE)))

Thanks for being supportive. I don't know if I can go tomorrow. I just feel so hurt. I agree with you Monte that it needs to be genuine. I wouldn't want it to be any other way. And now that I know that he has reservations about it again, how could I trust it if he changed his mind again?

I wish I could just verbalize what I'm trying to say here but I can't. I need to tell you how I am via a story. When I was little, my mother was friends with a neighbor. Her oldest son played with my brother. Her oldest daughter played with my sister. And the second oldest daughter was my age. We were "best friends". The truth is she hated me. But children don't know how to express themselves. And so she was just really really mean to me. I was told I was too sensitive. My mother was too vested in the relationship with her friend and too unassertive to help me out so I just had to suffer.

So one day, we were walking to the busstop. My uncle had died so I was moping. I did love my uncle but I really wasn't that sad about him dying. I didn't know him that well. I wanted this girl to care about me. I wanted her to notice that I was sad. So we did the dance we always did. She noticed I was moping and asked me what was wrong. I told her that my uncle died, hoping this would be the time, this was it. She was going to care about me. Today. Instead, she just said "so what" and walked away in a huff.

I eventually learned to hide my needs. It took me a really long time and a lot of hurt.

Concern number 1 is that I'm not sure my T understands how utterly humiliated I was when he just announced out of the blue that day that he doesn't hug or hold hands. I hadn't asked and never would have. I know he doesn't mean to jerk me around but he is jerking me around.

Remember, this is back before his conversion when everyone here was telling me to leave him. I cried and cried for months at home about it. I cried about just wanting him to put his hands on my head while I cried but knowing that it would never happen. I couldn't talk to him about why I was crying because, well, he hadn't been very sensitive.

We went through our crisis and he's been great. He started to offer touch. And, I trusted him. I admitted yes, I need this. Please give this to me. I felt like a dog panting around his feet waiting for my next scrap.

Then he said he was going to use it occasionally. And lately, he hasn't used it at all. So I brought it up again because we have been starting to go deep. I can't go to those deep dark places if he's going to stare at me. There might be other motivations involved, but I'm being honest here when I say it would traumatize me more if he just stared at me. The issue is very important to me.

He just stopped offering it and was hoping that I would see how much he cares by the nice things he does for me. And he has been really nice. And it's been helping me feel really secure with him. But, that doesn't mean I can go to those deep dark places if he's going to stare at me.

Here is concern number 2. I'm not sure he appreciates just how important the issue is to me. If he's going to change his mind and he appreciates how important it is to me, why not address it directly and see if there is something we can work out together? I feel like he was trying to slip it through the back door.

Concern number 3: He's been encouraging me to tell him everything. He says he needs to know. I go along with it rather trustingly. But I think he changed his mind based on something I said or something I did. I asked him about that and he didn't say yes but he didn't so no either. So I'm feeling a bit betrayed here. Trust me. Talk to me. Expose your needs. I'm down on my hands and knees here and then kicked in the teeth. Like my friend who asked me what was wrong and after I tell her, says so what and walks away.

Concern number 4: We decided that a lot of our troubles in the past had to do with the fact that we weren't communicating well. And I'm just not sure he communicated well here with me. He just fell back into his old pattern.

Trust me, I think my T is a caring person and I still adore him. But I'm just not sure he has a true appreciation for or understanding of my issues.

I came from a family that suppressed anger. Wednesday I was so angry at my T I felt like I was going to pass out. I decided that I couldn't see him the next day (yesterday) for my regular appointment because my feelings were SO intense. In the past, I would have just shut down so it's progress that I allowed myself to feel it even though I felt like I was going to pass out. Also progress that I recognized it was anger.

I called him Wednesday night, left him a voicemail and telling him how upset I was about everything and that we should just have a phone session. He left a voicemail for me telling me how sorry he was that I was so distressed and to please come in and talk about it. That he would respect my decision to have a phone session if that's what I needed but that he would prefer me to come in.

I decided that his voicemail sounded friendly and welcoming enough that I could muster up the courage to go to my session though I wasn't sure if I would pass out. It took my very best acting skills to walk into his office, past his secretary and down the hall with him to his office.

We sat on the floor at Monday's session at my suggestion and so yesterday he immediately said, let's sit on the floor again. We just talked and talked and shared with each other and worked on resolving my issues though I'm not sure they are completely resolved.

But he said some things that really touched my heart. I told him that I feel like he's backtracked on the touch issue because it's his way of keeping a wedge between us so he doesn't get attached to me. And he said, Liese, don't you know I'm attached to you? I AM attached to you. (Tears of joy.)

He couldn't say things like that a while back. At first, the most he could say was: of course I care. I make eye contact and don't answer the phone. I got desperate and had to quote TN's T. I told him that TN's T told her that a lot of therapists would be loathe to talk about their feelings for their clients but that he doesn't have a problem with it. And that he told TN that he was attached to her but not as intensely perhaps and in a more healthy way. (DO I have that right TN?)

So for a while, my T would qualify everything like that. Yes, I would miss you Liese. Maybe not as much as you would miss me. But I would miss you. So for him to just simply say he's attached to me and not qualify it meant so much. When I had to miss some sessions recently and only saw him once a week instead of twice, he even said it felt like a long time.

At some point he made a comment about how far he's come and he said something like, look at me, I'm sitting on the floor. I was surprised that he'd never done that before. Turns out he has but only with kids. And he also said he liked it. (I asked if we could sit on the floor because his chair is higher than the couch I sit on and during sessions, he is looking down at me. It's intimidating and formal.)

He also told me he was really proud of the work we've done together and how far we've come. That made me feel really good too. I'm glad he's proud of the work we've done.


Perhaps it was just as therapeutic as I think touch would be (if not more so) that I was able to experience my anger, express it and learn as well as experience that he wasn't going to run away or push me away or terminate my therapy? He, in fact, told me that it's okay for me to be angry with him. And you know what? It feels really good.

Thank you all for your support over the past week. I was having a difficult time of things but I'm feeling much better. Now I'm thinking that the development of obsession and longing might be caused by soft, undefined and moving parental boundaries as well as inconsistent caregiving. ????

All I can say is "wow." Thanks for being willing to share all this, Liese. It is an encouragement for people like me, and it seems like such a major step along your path.

Liese,

Thanks for sharing. I was really wondering how your session was going to go and felt happy reading such a good report. I even got vicarious warm fuzzies reading about how your T told you he was attached to you.

He sounds nice and genuinely caring, in spite of some of the blunders. I hope the touch issue does not obstruct your therapy and you continue to do good work together. It sounds promising!

(((Liese)))

I'm sooooo happy for you Liese! Sitting on the floor is something I always wanted to do, but never did. I'm especially happy that your T told you that he was also attached to you!



B2W

quote:

I got desperate and had to quote TN's T. I told him that TN's T told her that a lot of therapists would be loathe to talk about their feelings for their clients but that he doesn't have a problem with it. And that he told TN that he was attached to her but not as intensely perhaps and in a more healthy way. (DO I have that right TN?)

You got it right and evidently so did your T today!! What a lovely, wonderful, touching session. I am so happy that we (my T and I) could help you and your T along the same path. How I understand it is that my T is not as intensely attached to me (as I am to him) because he is not suffering from an attachment wound. He can be attached to me in a secure and healthy way.

Your T has learned a lot from working with someone as brave and curious as you are. He has not "changed" for the sake of just changing to pacify you... he has grown and learned new things as a T and adapted what was right for your situation. It was so great to hear you sat on the floor and that you are the first ADULT he has done that with. It's nice to have some "firsts" with a T that has been in practice for a long time. I know I am the first one to challenge him on the touch issue, the first one who sat on the floor and had a graduation party. He told me yesterday he has had a lot of "firsts" with me but he didn't specify. When I questioned him on being challenging to him (his words) he responded in an email that I am "wonderfully" challenging. So you see, it's good to try new things and experiment out of the normal T box. It stretches us and them too. I'm sure your T looks forward to your sessions and wondering what new, fresh ideas and thoughts you will bring to therapy.

And that also validates what a wonderful site this is that we can share these kinds of things and learn from each other and find the courage to try them out.

Thank you for sharing that. It brightened my otherwise awful (work wise) day.


TN

(((Liese))) Thanks for sharing your session. I'm glad your T is coming through for you and you're more able to stay with and express your feelings to him. That's AMAZING work you're doing.