Hello LL
Your post got me thinking about this - good questions. I find it really hard after 10 months now with t to open up the conversation and it usually takes a prompting question like 'hows work?' from t before I'll offer an answer, I usually clam up after about 5 mins when talking about my real life because its a bit like well nothing interesting to say there t. I tend to to talk facts most times because its safer to my way of thinking then I don't have to get the feelings etc. On a day when I am fully 'present' in session we have had general kind of chit chat days, about work, books, art stuff t and I both like - when I asked t about these chit chats and why she asked it comes about that my t likes to do this every so often because as she says t doesn't have to be cathartic and drama and crisis every session so its a kind of breathing space. She also seems to use these kinds of questions about real life to gauge how balanced I am emotionally so we don't dive into trauma work or parts work and risk me dissociating or worse. I think t also uses these kinds of questions/chats about real life sessions to slow the work down when it has been particularly tough like a few weeks ago when we did some grief work.
Don't know if that helps answer your questions, have read some of your other posts so glad you think this t might be the one for you

((((LL))))

I've always found it hard to talk to my T about anything, real or imagined, and so can really relate to what you are talking about. I think it's important to be able to 1) take your own life seriously, 2) be able to talk about it, and 3) find meaning in your life - not necessarily in that order. But maybe if your T can get you at least comfortable with talking about your life and taking your life seriously, then maybe you will start to take your life seriously and invest a little more in it.

It always seemed so risky to care. To care about myself: who the hell am I? To care about others: can't get attached because I need to protect from loss. But, a life without caring is not worth living, IMHO. I've envied my T his life but what I've learned by watching him is that he invests himself in his life, he cares, he takes risks and he makes himself vulnerable. He doesn't live to protect himself from pain, as I have been living.

I've been with my T for four years and can say that it's only now that I'm almost comfortable talking to my T. The spillover into real life is that in conversations with friends, I take myself more seriously, assert myself, don't freak out if they don't seem to understand what I'm saying right away, etc. etc.

So I think you and your T are on the right track.

xoxo

Liese

P.S. So glad you finally found the right T. It was worth the wait.

What do I talk about in therapy? Hmm. . . that is a good question.

I'd say at least half of the time, and probably more, I talk about my family of origin dynamics. There is a lot there I am still trying-- not so much to understand intellectually, but come to terms with emotionally. The problem sometimes is that, like you, I'll tend to prattle about it all abstractly, like I'm composing my own case study, without really engaging with my stories on a more personal level in a way that would (I think) facilitate greater integration. I sometimes feel like I'm talking about somebody else and not myself.

Other than family or origin issues, we talk about current "symptoms," (which are mainly anxiety, SI, occasional SU ideation, and a tendency to talk (in my head) with an imaginary friend), and how I am managing them. We discuss different strategies and talk about what helps and what doesn't.

Sometimes in the course of a session a disturbing memory from the past will float into awareness and I'll just talk through the memory-- whatever it was that happened and how I felt about it. I rarely plan this sort of thing ahead of time. It seems to happen spontaneously in the course of talking about something else that turns out to be related. These kinds of sessions often turn out to be the best and most productive ones, I believe because I'm just sort of "in the flow" during them and not filtering everything so much.

Let's see what else. . . I'll sometimes talk about one of my friends, or my daughter, or my H, but usually not at very great length cuz there are no major problems there. We also sometimes chat about theology, religion, child raising, social issues, books I'm reading, poetry, etc. I don't know if that kind of talking is exactly "therapeutic," but it helps in establishing rapport, which is important.

As far as the details of my daily life go, well, they aren't terribly fascinating to anyone who does not find hearing stories about my one year old's antics and development engrossing. So I guess I don't do very much of that either. . . T will often ask me about how my week has gone, though. I usually reply very briefly before launching into something else (see above).

Anyway, there is a summary of the conversational material of my therapy sessions. Kind of a mish mash as you can see. I have often wondered what other people talk about, and will be checking back on this thread with interest!

LL ~ awesome for you to find a great T!!!

I'm glad you asked what other people talk about in therapy because I have wondered that lately myself. Mostly, because I feel I am moving at snail pace, I start questioning if my T is doing her job right or if I'm just unable to open up. I usually talk about the week I've had. I have to write it down in my journal otherwise I go into her office and freeze up and can't find any words. I skim over my journal musings and leave out a lot of specific details and feeling. If I start to feel something, she'll ask me why I got teary, and I talk my way around the subject to avoid the feelings. Then I leave and get mad at myself and try to pump myself up for the next week, thinking I'll say what I need to and let my feelings come, but same old story. We don't talk much about my past because she believes all the crap going on now is related to the years of dynamics so we focus on the here and now. It logically makes sense to me, and I do have a lot of junk going on in my life. I think it's hard for me to feel safe and let things come up because I have to keep up so many defenses with people around me. So yeah - we usually just talk about my week and it usually is pretty casual for the first 30 minutes. It seems like when I get to any "meat", my time is up.

LL I am so pleased that you have found the right T for you ((((((LL))))))

What do I talk about in therapy? thats a hard one lol and made harder because my T will sit and wait for me to speak first. Sometimes if my manager at work has pissed me off then I will talk about that, sometimes I will chat about my boys. I told her about my new kittens However after reading your post I realised I rarely talked about my day to day life. I know we did talk about how | thought the only thing she is interested in was my abuse.

She keeps telling me that she is interested in everything I have to say but I still struggle to believe her. I mean my life is so boring, I think I'm boring so why would she be interested in my life? I go to work and then I go to sleep and apart from the occasional night out with a friend thats it! Thanks LL you have gave me a lot to think about

Just have to say again that I am really happy for you (((((LL))))

Hev

Thank you everyone for your replies, and for the good will towards my finding the right T

Very interesting how this seems to be quite usual – I genuinely was wondering whether I was the only one who couldn’t get it together to talk about ‘innocuous’ stuff in therapy – only on reflection it’s not quite so innocuous is it? DF you put it clearly I think (and Monte too) when you said you can and do talk about things in your current life BUT that it’s much more difficult to talk about how you FEEL about them.

DF funnily enough I do exactly what you’re describing too with something current that is emotionally significant in some way, I tend to only bring it up after the intensity of the feelings has subsided. When my mother died I didn’t tell my T until about two sessions later and very successfully managed to make it sound like not that much of a big deal.

I think what I’ve realized is that even trying to talk about what I’d consider really boring uninteresting lightweight things to do with my real life, brings up all sorts of feelings that I’m actually in the daily struggle of trying to squash, ignore, avoid. In fact, it’s precisely in the apparent lightweight stuff that most of my feelings seem to reside. Hmmm. Maybe because it’s current and in the moment.

Also, it seems that quite a few of us seem to find our own lives uninteresting and boring (at least to others) and that’s really sad. There’s something to be said for the therapeutic value of getting comfortable talking to a T about the seemingly not-so-traumatic stuff so as to be able to carry that over into the real world, as you said Liese, having someone else take it seriously means that maybe we can take it seriously too. Mind you sometimes I find breathing traumatic, so I suppose it’s all relative .

Monte it sounds like we’re all pretty much in the same boat here, it all seems to be about defending against FEELINGS. How you describe your T asking questions or you would never say anything, that’s exactly what happened with my new T – he’s the first T I’ve had who asks questions. Without his prompting and asking questions about my real life I’d just not have ever thought to talk about it. For me, it’s the expression of interest that’s the catalyst. I’ve had Ts who have done what Hev’s T does, sit and wait for me to start talking and I’d come up with all sorts of off the cuff things based entirely on what I thought I was supposed to be talking about and it just took the therapy round and round in circles. Hev I gotta admire you for hanging in there with a silent T.

After 32 Ts I’ve decided that having a T who is willing to show interest, who asks questions, who will lead or direct the sessions to a certain degree if I’m sitting there mute is fundamental to therapy working for me. When I finally trotted out my daily routine and sat there going on about how could he possibly be interested in boring trivial stuff like this (read: how could he possibly be interested in boring unimportant ME) he looked quite surprised and said of course I’m interested, as if it was just taken for granted and I said, well I don’t know that how am I supposed to know that? Nobody else has been interested, why would I assume that you would be? There’s too much tacit stuff goes on in therapy, and I think a lot of therapists don’t realize the extent of the fears and defences that clients have about lots of things.

HIC that is exactly how it feels to me when I’m talking about anything, like I’m talking about someone else. I seem to have perfected this way of detached story telling that keeps me and my feelings and what it means to me out of the picture. But trying to talk about day to day or real life stuff for some reason is much more difficult to attribute to a third person. I liked what you said about it being like you’re composing your own case study, that’s exactly what I do, but am finding it’s so much harder to do that when the stuff I’m talking about is unique to me (ie that can’t be fitted into a generic text book scenario.)

Raven I agree with your T, stuff that’s going on in the present inevitably can be connected to the dynamics of the past, and vice versa – that getting in touch with what’s going on the present is a way of uncovering what happened in the past. DF that’s what you were saying too – it actually makes a lot of sense and I think I’ve always acknowledged that intellectually, but for some reason (!) not applied it in reality. I suppose I’ve had a vested interest in not being in the present precisely because it links so directly to the past – sorry going off tangent here a bit and thinking aloud...

JMB you another one defending against feelings. I rather like that you and T can ‘chit chat’ about all sorts of topics, though like you I’d probably be wondering what’s the point of this, is this therapeutic or what lol? But I can see your T’s reasoning.

Sorry this is a bit of a rambling post, I didn’t want to write reams like I usually do if I responded directly to everyone individually but have ended up doing that anyway. Everything you guys have said has brought up even more interesting things and I don’t quite know how to pursue it without making this a super mega post (which would be boring (!) and make me feel like I’m imposing (!) – exclamation marks to indicate that I’m recognizing boring uninteresting unimportant me messages here ).

Thank you again everyone for sharing what you talk about in therapy. It’s teaching me a lot.

LL

Hello xoxo I crossposted with you!

Thanks for your reply. Lol I grew steadily more amazed as I read the kinds of things you've talked about in therapy. Way to go! Sounds like you've not only covered just about everything it's possible to talk about, but that there's been a steady method in it too, I really got the sense of progress and building on what's gone before. Wow you must have real trust and faith in your T to feel free to talk about all this stuff. I openly confess to feelings of ENVY.

I hope you feel safe enough to leave your post up, it's really enlightening and has lots of things in it I'd like to refer back to.

LL xxx

Lol double cross-post. I'm not sure I understand your question properly. Could you explain it more to me?

LL

ETA:

quote:

patients who come in with 'stories' and different issues all the time are usually those who are really out of touch with their true feelings.

This really struck me and has me thinking. What do you think your T meant when he used the word 'stories'? I can certainly classify myself as someone who is out of touch with my true feelings, I just wondered about the stories element as I find it almost impossible to tell stories about myself or my life.

xxx

Howdy, LL!! What a wonderful thing to see your update. Thanks for sharing. I often think that you think you are boring and...whatever...when the reality is that you are interesting. One thing I've noticed about you, is that you tend to ask people for their perspectives on things and get them to share their stories with you- which most of us really long to do. In other words, you are a good listener, and asker of questions yourself, and because you communicate in that way- with interest in others- it makes perfect snese that you would need that type of interest directed back to you- it's neat that you give others what you long for yourself.

Ok- so LL, I'm real happy that you found this T. To answer your question, with Guru T, I cannot for the life of me remember what we talked about. I tried to talk about what he wanted to talk about, because he did not express interest in me. This interest in me is crucial, not because I want to present myself a certain way- but because I need *permission* to speak about myself. With this permission, I can quite freely open up and be myself. Without it, I am a clam. You seem similar.

I once asked my old T if we could just talk about non-serious things- I told him in an email, of my longing to share the everyday details of my silly life with him- and his response was that therapy is too expensive to use making small talk, or some such answer. It devastated me, and you can be sure that from that day forward, I did try to present myself as educated, thoughtful, interesting, and intensely spiritual. I to this day have *no idea* if I am *really* any of those things, but by golly, I know I can put that on pretty well.

Fast forward to Cowboy T. He initiates small talk, which I find irritating, but ever so useful! It is amazing how much it helps me to be able to use at least part of the session for what I need. He literally giggles at certain things. He asks me how the home renovations are coming. He ask me stupid stuff about my life. He says it's important we can talk this way- that he is interested. I find this extremely freeing- and it totally has the effect of dissipating any (for me therapy-ruining) transference. Transference for me, means that I do most definitely *not* have the freedom to explore who I really am, or to find out what I think or feel. Without it, I no longer feel that I have to present myself as intelligent, thoughtful, or impressive- Cowboy clearly does not value those things, particularly. I think somehow, that he understands what I need...or at least, what he happens to do, or be- works for me. So, I can find out, within the context of this realtionship- who the heck the real me really is. And paradoxically, I have revealed more to Cowboy and with total honesty- than I was ever able to do with Guru T. I really think there is something to be said for T's that are "regular guys." My T is all about being a regular guy. It helps. I have no idea why, but it helps.

So we talk about- my marriage, my past, my Foo, my last T, my issues, my faith, my kids, my emotions (or lack thereof) and we talk about him, his boundaries, he tells me little stories about his family, or stuff that illustrates the point that we are trying to uncover- and, we also I think- analyze the transference between me and my last T, and try to figure out that bit.

All of this continues to have a dimension of complete unreality to it. It's like walking into a dream once a week. I wonder if Cowboy T really exists outside of that room sometimes.

Anyway- so that is my expereince with it. It sounds like your T is interested, and of *course* it is fundamental that that interest be expressed to you, if it is not something that you have been able to take for granted. I know I wasn't with Guru T. How boring I felt. But with Cowboy- idk, I feel interesting, so I have permission to speak. It's funny that for you and I, it seem the cardinal sin is being "boring." I wonder what that is all about?

Hugs, you!

BB

****ing page two!!!

Hello Page Two Beebs

Thank you for your kind words about me – lol I’ve been rumbled . Yes I do consciously write posts that throw out questions at others – I figure that what I write about myself is boring (one day maybe I’ll stop feeling like that but for now…) and at best all people could respond with is some supportive words, whereas having a concrete question to answer maybe lets people feel more ok about talking about their own experience. But the questions I ask I genuinely want to know the answers to, so it’s not quite as contrived as it seems. One day maybe I’ll be able to write a post that asks outright for support and understanding without feeling like I have to justify it. I’m working on it.

Thank you too for being so open about what you talk about in therapy.

quote:

his response was that therapy is too expensive to use making small talk, or some such answer.

Wow, no wonder you ended up turning yourself inside out trying to come up with the ‘right’ things to talk about (sounds very familiar!) and feeling obligated to present this all knowing together persona in therapy instead of just being able to be you. ANY kind of proscription on what can be talked about in therapy creates a massive block – well I think so anyway. Puts me in mind of a recent previous T who refused point blank to accept any anger directed at her and while I persevered for six months I found that in order to split off my angry feelings I ended up monitoring and squashing ALL my feelings so the therapy fizzled out big time.

Cowboy T sounds pretty good! What I find interesting is that you experience sessions with him as unreal, as belonging to some other dreamlike dimension of reality that has nothing to do with your life between sessions. I do get a similar feeling, and I wonder if it’s not because being heard and accepted and reflected as important is so out of our normal experience that it just doesn’t compute yet? Or maybe that’s a defence too, because it’s like this little capsule of time and space that exists outside of our normal reality and it’s so much easier to keep it separated off as ‘therapy’ and keep it apart from real life.

Yeah being boring, it’s not something I’ve ever consciously thought of myself before (more like a defensive taken for granted thing, having to say and do the ‘right’ thing around people) so I was pretty amazed that actually I do believe I’m boring and that nothing about me is interesting or important and therefore everyone else must experience me that way too. I have a fair idea in my case that it comes from the past oh bollocks well of course it does I could give chapter and verse of how I learned to experience myself as worthless and unimportant and having no value to anyone else and how whatever I said or did it was totally ineffectual, pointless, uninteresting and usually labelled bad and selfish to boot. I think it goes a lot deeper than just being boring, but that experiencing ourselves (or our lives, which is effectively the same thing) as boring and uninteresting and unimportant is the tip of a defensive iceberg. Does that resonate with you?

Thanks again Beebs for sharing your experiences. (((( BB ))))

LL xxx

XOXO - thanks for elaborating on your question – lol yes it is indeed a pattern, but what the barrier to intimacy has been, is the fact that none of my previous therapists asked questions, neither of the ‘what are the details of your life’ kind, nor more importantly of the ‘how do you feel’ type. I’ve spent nearly all my time in therapy so far trying to ‘encourage’ Ts to focus on my feelings (having discovered that I’m really adept at avoiding feelings altogether.) In my current Ts defence, I don’t think his occasional questions, and comments when I’m sitting there mute, are preventing my being able to reveal my true self, on the contrary they are what are allowing me to BE more my true self and reveal what’s going on in me. Horses for courses I suppose.

Thanks too for answering my question about telling stories as being a defence. That makes real sense to me and I think it’s something I’ve done as well – not that I tell many stories per se, but have always laboured under the assumption that focusing on the past in therapy has been the ‘right’ thing to do. Another good thing my new T has done, which no other T before him picked up on either, is to point out how I have to seem to always know how to and do the ‘right and correct’ thing in therapy. His very gentle and totally uncritical way of bringing these things up has let me be much less defensive – other Ts may well have noticed the same thing but by just leaving me to ramble on and on with no input and no questions and no feedback about what I’m doing/saying in therapy they managed to just perpetuate all my defences and shoulds and oughts.

As you know I’ve tried two different PsychoTs, and though I really do get how psychoanalysis can be a very powerful and effective form of therapy, it hasn’t worked for me (mind you the two I saw weren’t properly registered psychoanalysts, they were something called psychoanalytic psychotherapists, which is a different breed altogether.) Interestingly my new T is much more of a blank slate than most other Ts I’ve seen and effectively combines the humanistic approach with a psychoanalytic approach so I’m getting the best of both worlds

At the end of the day I’ve realized, as many people have said all along, that it’s the ‘fit’ that matters and my new T has a way about him that has let me feel ‘heard’ (a common complaint of mine, that I never feel heard in therapy) and that has allowed me to start talking about more meaningful things in therapy, which in turn has led me to wonder what other people talk about and whether they have the same blocks and defences as me when it comes to what they talk about in therapy. Lol I can’t believe that I’ve been in and out of therapy so many times and never wondered before what people actually do talk about in therapy.

Thanks again xoxo for your replies, and I’m glad you are leaving them up.

LL xxx

quote:

Originally posted by monte:

I can get fairly animated after a while and I can see he likes to witness that. But as soon as the conversation calls for emotional responses it all changes. The mood drops, my voice goes monotone and I completely stop looking at him ...even though I don't give a lot of eye contact at the best of times.

Monte

I am still reading the posts - but Monte - I had to laugh when I read this. This is SO ME.

I look everywhere except T, go all mind blank and can't talk. I forget how to speak, my voice changes tone.

One time recently I was talking about something, recounting something and I was talking at a million miles an hour and when that finished I felt exhausted. I said 'Wow I just spoke a lot'. We were amazed. Then we got onto feelings or something and I went dead again.

My 2c worth.

My history dictated where I started with T and it all seems back to front now. As i had just been traumatically terminated - I had major and urgent issues around being safe during that week. T saw me to 'hold' me. Then we went from there and she said she would take on a long termer.

SU ideation was discussed from session 1. Then about 5 sessions after that I said I was BPD, then another 6 sessions after that I brought up SI.

Every session I have had some significant distress and discussion about the termination from the previous T as this underpins every relationship and emotion I feel. We talk about our attachment and relationship every session. We start our session with a couple minutes 'tuning in' - like a mindfulness thing we do together. We then set our agenda - which will come from the stuff I have emailed that week. Together we work out what we talk about . T's job is to read thru my words and work out what is important. T will always thread some practical skills work through the week's session depending on what we talk about and she will give me homework to do each week.

It sounds wonderful that you have finally got "your T".

Thanks xoxo and Somedays for your replies. I meant to come back to this thread this morning and never had the time and now I'm pushed again, so will be back later.

LL

So I’m back as threatened.

xoxo thanks for explaining more about what you see. Food for thought and I will go away and consider what you’ve said (not right at this moment, I’m feeling very out of sorts about therapy right now!)

Lol what I talk about in therapy seems to be so beyond the pale of what I’ve read in people’s responses here that I’m not sure it would make much sense – mostly I’ve talked around and around and around about what I understand my internal set up to be – having spent decades digging around in my own head and looking at my motives it’s all quite clear to me and I keep thinking well I can hand a T my set up on a platter, shortcircuit the inevitable assumptions a T makes that the client has little or no self awareness. But they’ve never been interested in my internal set up (the inner reality hidden behind walls that you speak of.) I don’t know how to convey to them what goes on in me in any other way except through words and my words in therapy always seem to fall into a vacuum. I think I’m really tired at the moment of all the effort I put into trying to make therapy work and getting nowhere

Somedays thanks for sharing what you talk about. Sounds like you have no shortage of serious issues to bring to therapy so the whole notion of finding it difficult to talk about the ‘trivia’ of your real life doesn’t really come up does it? No-one could accuse your life of being boring and not serious


Hm ok so thinking about what everyone here has said about what they talk about in therapy, shows me one thing clearly that I’ve been missing – the therapist’s interest in their clients. I think I’ve misled myself, I don’t think my T is interested in me or what I have to say at all. I think I let myself be swayed by my own rediscovered need to have someone actually be interested in ME and attributed that (wrongly) to him.

He certainly made it pretty clear in my session yesterday that I wasn’t to look for anything from him, but to direct my needs out into the real world. Classic CBT crap So my new found enthusiasm for letting myself believe that my T actually really truly genuinely wants to know about my boring trivial petty life really set me up for a fall. I am not a happy bunny.

I should have known better than to tempt fate by writing positive stuff about my T, inevitable that I’d be shown to be wrong. I think it’s time to pull up the drawbridge again. Am I really so uninteresting and boring that even a paid T doesn’t want to know me? Don’t you just hate it when the very beliefs you’re trying to change get confirmed over and over again.

Gosh writing this out I can see I’m feeling REALLY sorry for myself. Gone beyond anger and resentment, this hurts

Sorry for the downer post, it would be nice once in a while to have something consistently positive to say, seems that’s not going to happen in a hurry.

LL

((((((( DF )))))))))

I don't know how to begin to thank you for your wonderful post and really supportive words and sharing yourself like that. I was literally about to edit all my posts and delete the last bit, and logged in to see your reply and well, I'm just speechless and teary and so so grateful to you. Sorry this sounds a bit OTT but I've been having a hugely emotional day rethinking this whole therapy business and all sorts of other crap and it really hit me in the heart seeing your reply. Thank you so much.

Gonna think about what you've said because there's loads in your post that means a lot to me and right now my brain is all mushy. Will be back tomorrow to post a proper reply to you.

LL

(((LL)))

I'm sorry that your session with your T was so painful. I can imagine how it feels to think T isn't interested in you. I often feel the same way except I'm not surprised that my T isn't interested in me I kind of assume he isn't. It hurts when I don't think he likes me.

I'm glad DF's reply helped you because it certainly helped me and I don't have anything to offer but sympathy.

Oh dear...LL... sorry I missed the post about your last session as I was out with my son all day today and this thread really took off.

First off... so sorry about the pain and anxiety you are experiencing after today's session. Therapy can be hellishly painful and frustrating too. I just want to ask you to not give up on you or this T you have now. What I think you need to do is go back to him and talk about his comment about directing your needs out into the real world. First you need to be sure you heard him correctly and did not misunderstand that statement. Then you need to ask him to further explain that. It was just two weeks ago that I got annoyed at my T (and scared) when I told him he was my light back to safety and security and he said he likes to think of his light as shining the path forward for me. So, of course, I freaked out thinking he wanted to just be rid of me and refused to be my safe harbor and just wanted to light a path for me right out of his office the his building.

Of course, he did not mean that and again told me that he would continue to be my safe place and that he does not terminate patients and that I need to stop equating getting well with leaving him. So it helped to bring it back up and clarify.

I also want to say that I rarely have a consistent string of wonderful sessions. Right now, as you know, I am trying to hurdle a rather large obstacle of touch in therapy. I think most of us here have some rocky times in therapy and it's not unusual. You will have them as well but you need to try your best to tough them out (unless of course your T is incompetent or unethical).

When you write about trying to convey your internal set up to your T and have them understand and accept this... well it sort of reminds me of what I sometimes do (and my T is happy to point out) is to try to be in control of the therapy. You are deciding how much you will allow him to know of you or even allow him to form his own opinions of your internal workings. And I know this may be difficult and I don't mean it harshly at all... you may not be the best judge of how you work, despite all the time you spend in your own head. I have had some difficult moments of truth provided by my T about so many misconceptions and misperceptions about how I see myself and others. The best way we come to know ourselves is through relationship with others. We cannot do this alone. Maybe you could try just talking to your T about how you see HIM and how you view the relationship and perhaps that will stir up some transference or some old relational hurts that you can then speak about.

I didn't answer your original question in this thread yet. I had been thinking about what I talk about in therapy and with my current T it has mostly been done backwards sort of how SD described it. I went to him in crisis. I was traumatized and I would sit and just cry with him and shake and I didn't even care if he liked me or not. I was so depressed I could not even see him when I looked at him. Mostly he reassured me, and we talked about his policies of termination, how he works, what he thought we needed to do, and then about oldT. For a year we talked about oldT so that would not be helpful to you. Now we mostly talk about us, our relationship and attachment. And how that attachment and transference plays out in therapy and relates to my past.

With oldT when I first went in I started by talking about parenting because I was struggling with a special needs child, then because my mom was seriously ill we talked about her dying and when she died what that meant. Then it led to me telling him about my inability to really mourn her death and how this grief seemed so complicated and we explored that. Later we moved to my issues of self-hatred, low self-esteem, my anxiety about doing everyday stuff, and issues at work and then we would talk about general family stuff what I liked to do what I didn't like to do. Our discussions led to me returning to school. Later I started to discuss attachment and trauma and brought in articles and read parts of books to him, wrote poetry, I read others' poetry, I shared my school papers with him, we talked about baseball and wine and writing and his camp. I brought in pictures and gave him small gifts to further our discussions. I really never lacked for things to bring him or discuss with him. And in between all of this we talked about our relationship, our disruptions, the attachment, and transference issues.

LL... I don't think you are boring and I don't think your T does either but I'll bet he would love to know more about you, your life, your history, your struggles. You don't need to have all the answers. Just the questions. If I can I'd like to suggest that you go in and say "hey T, I am really struggling with this therapy, I don't know what I'm doing or where I'm supposed to be going and I need some help because I'm lost and confused". And see where that takes you both.

I wish I could be of more help. I'm thinking of you and I'm sorry for the pain you are in.

Hugs
TN

Thanks Incognito, TN and xoxo for your replies (and thanks again DF for your last post )

Argh I’ve just written and deleted umpteen variations on direct replies to each of you and on trying to explain what’s been going on and nothing I write is making any sense.

Some sort of shift has taken place in me regarding therapy and my futile lifelong quest to be understood and I’m not sure at the moment what I’m going to do. Of course I’ll go in to next session and talk (try to anyway) to T about what’s come up, but I’m not hopeful that I’ll be staying in therapy. This T is the absolute last T I'll ever see, so there's been a lot (too much probably) riding on his being the 'right' T (or just, good enough.)

I’m sorry, I just can’t seem to get it together to say anything coherent. So much stuff is going on in my head right now and I still feel utterly ko’ed by it all. Lots of rage, lots of despair, lots of hopelessness...

Will come back later to reply properly when I’ve sorted things out a bit.

Thanks so much for all your support, it means a lot to me.

LL

quote:

So much stuff is going on in my head right now and I still feel utterly ko’ed by it all. Lots of rage, lots of despair, lots of hopelessness...

Hey LL... I hope our replies (or mine anyway) have not caused your further anguish over therapy.

What I quoted ... well I just want to say yup that is therapy. It brings up all those feelings and there are times you will truly feel worse before you feel better. Right now I'm in that feeling worse stage. So awful I paged my T today to hear his voice and have him tell me that we are okay. And I needed him to tell me that there was hope and I would eventually feel something good again.

I began to experience the good stuff, the feeling of being filled up and joyful and playful and feeling like there was good ahead of me... I felt that way up until July of 2010 when my oldT began to push me out. Then it all died again. But I felt it for awhile so I know it can be possible again someday if I can just sit with the pain and trust the process (and my T).

I think you may be struggling with trusting the process and the fact that the process cannot really be controlled by you and neither can therapy. Part of doing this is letting go and leaning on your T. So perhaps you are not ready to go into the past trauma but instead you still need to work on building the relationship. My T says it takes at least 2 years to have a solid relationship and we spent my first year really focusing on healing the trauma from oldT. We are still working on our foundation. Sounds like your foundation is still shaky and under construction. The only way it gets stronger is to keep going and pouring that concrete!! It takes time and I know I tend to be the one to rush things. My T tells me we are doing fine and making progress.

Perhaps you could ask your T for some feedback on how you are doing? Ask him to help you figure this out because you are stuck or confused or feeling hopeless. That alone can take your conversation in a new direction.

I hope you don't become discouraged in posting to us... even if you feel that your posts are not the most well thought out, organized and brilliantly insightful writings... it will help you to put your thoughts out there and get support.

Thinking of you
TN

(((LL)))

I want to let you know that I understand those feelings of hopelessness and despair and they keep returning for me as well. I agree with TN that is therapy unfortunately. I think my T finds it difficult to be with the despair and hopelessness sometimes I add worthlessness to that as well. Lately I've been shortening for us where I don't try and describe it and just tell him I feel it. I agree with TN it helps sometimes when T tells me why he thinks we are making progress but sometimes it doesn't.

Write even if it isn't coherent, sometimes it starts messy and gets clearer. Try to remember that you don't have to decide everything forever and always today. I think telling yourself that this is the last T you'll ever see just adds so much pressure to the relationship you are forming. Also the relationship is forming so there is time and space for it to change in ways that support you more.

I hope you are able to express some of what you are struggling with in your session with T.

(((((LL)))) I just wanted to offer you some supportive hugs. I'm so sorry that you are left feeling this sense of hopelessness or that therapy can't help. It's a terrible feeling, I understand it and I hate it, too. But the thing is- it can help. It can help you in subtle ways that you aren't recognizing at the time and won't suspect, and won't notice until later. I wonder what would happen if, come hell or highwater, you just stuck with this therapist- no matter what? No matter how crummy, ineffectual, angering, annoying, or incompetent and painful he might feel? It is something worth thinking about- but I hope that suggestion is not too triggering. It's what I've decided to do for now, because all I know how to do is keep dragging my sorry behind in there week after week, and keep hoping that something is changing, and that there is some sense to it all. Take or leave these thoughts, or course. Of course the flip side of a decision like that, is that you could end up very hurt. Still, we grow through pain. It might sound weird but I wouldn't change a thing about what happened to me with Guru T because the knowledge I gained from that painful experience was invaluable, and it did help me, in some mysterious way- even as it harmed me in others. Well, ok, I would have changed, that it was on video conference, and that was not helpful to me- but still.

I hope that you will find a way to just go in there, and talk about what is going on- tell him what you wrote here. Try not to hide- so hard, I know.

Just take it one appointment at a time.

Hang in there- it is going to be ok- ((((LL))) more hugs,

Beebs

Hello again and thank you SO much for all the support and for thinking of me. I can’t begin to say how much it means to me and how it really helped me with the rubbish state I managed to get myself into. Hugs to you (((((( TN ))))))), (((((( Incognito )))))) and (((((( Beebs )))))) – and hugs too to DF and xoxo for your previous support – you guys kept me grounded in reality while my mind was deciding to spin off into la-la land.

I feel a lot better today (going out shopping for the day helped too) and will of course turn up to my session tomorrow and barring some off the wall negative response from T, am not intending to quit (touch wood).

I know it sounds melodramatic talking about this T being the absolute last I’m going to try, but I have to face the fact that if I’ve worked my way through 31 Ts over the years and NEVER been helped by any of them then it’s just prolonging torture to keep on trying. But I’ve got massive problems and I can’t fix them by myself so I end up in this vicious circle of talking myself into believing that therapy can help because, well, what other option is there? I’ve only been with this T for about three months (2x weekly) and so far I don’t feel any connection and not much trust but I keep telling myself it’s early days and give it time and what gives me hope is hearing everyone’s stories on this forum. If I went on how I feel after individual sessions I’d have turned tail weeks ago

See I’ve got this vested interest in trying to see the positives about this guy and what did me in earlier this week was realizing that I’d interpreted things he’d said as meaning he was interested in me and wanted to know who I was and what my real life was like (crappy need in me surfacing) without his actually saying as much. And last session he started talking about thinking I had changed since starting with him and talked about what could I do to help myself in real world and it all just crashed in on me, that he’s totally not heard and not understood (nor wanted to understand) any of what I’ve been endlessly rabbiting on to him about my internal set up and the problems I’ve got, and that he seems to think I’m getting ‘better’ and hey ho it’s time to ‘practise’ getting my needs met in real world and it was all so, I dunno how to describe it, he suddenly stopped being this nice mild accepting interested man and turned into an uninvested detached uncaring well-intentioned but totally non-comprehending enemy. Enemy in the sense that if I was stupid enough to try and trust him with anything vulnerable about me his misinterpretation or non-understanding of it would destroy me. I should say that we don’t do anything like teaching ‘skills’ or emotionally focused work at all, so to ask me how I could get my needs met in real world was a real non-sequitur (except that it was obviously his agenda for the session.)

I started out just mildly annoyed at his pushing me to work outside of therapy on stuff that I’m actually IN therapy for (and annoyed with myself for getting hooked into the question and spending half the session defending myself) but the more I thought about it the more everything just went tits up. It’s more than just a few stupid and totally misattuned comments on his part, it called up the whole thing of what the hell am I in therapy for and how come I can’t ever find a T who bothers to try and understand me and am I going to be stuck with who I am for the rest of my life with no way to sort myself out and that’s just too frightening a thought to countenance but what am I going to do now that this T is showing he’s not on my side but is actually the enemy what am I going to DO?????? round and round in circles... I went from feeling really enraged at him, to feeling utterly alienated from humanity to desperate to hopeless to rage again round and round and round and got myself into a huge mess trying to work out what I could do by myself (again) to get better so that if I needed to quit it wouldn’t be the end of the world man I made a mess of my mind these last two days and all sorts of other crappy stuff kept surfacing along the way as well (like to like I suppose…)

Anyway sorry for the rambling nature of what I’ve just said that’s sort of what was going on in my head and I couldn’t get any of it straight and went into a sort of panic. So what I read here in your replies actually grounded me, got me out of the blinkered thinking of ‘my god I’m so abnormal everyone is the enemy I can’t trust anyone and it’s all my damn fault there’s something so wrong with me even I can’t work out what it is on and on and on…’

I have to say that the flip flop I experienced is still in effect – I now see T as weak and ineffectual and totally oblivious of everything serious and important I’ve been trying to explain to him over the last three months, and worst of all, it’s no skin off his nose whether I tip over the edge or not because of his uselessness as a T so he’s not only not a lifeline but he’s quite likely going to be the one who nudges me over the edge, without even realizing it. All the positive things I’ve seen about him I’ve seen from the perspective of me as normal – via the lens of being in my external real world persona – but the real me, the big mess inside, never saw him positively at all and while I have hope and belief that I too can become normal and get help from therapy like other people I can mostly ignore those internal images but when the idiot T does or says things that pull the rug then no amount of rationalizing and real world thinking helps. Sorry I know this last bit sounds like bollocks

So I’ll come back to real world type talking, just wanted to explain a bit why I was such a mess and not responding here.

Going to work backwards in replying individually. I am so grateful to you guys that the least I can do is give a decent response to each of you.

Edited to add: this reply got SO long that I’ve decided to split it into separate posts.

LL

Beebs, the idea of just sticking it out with a T, come hell or high water, is what I’d decided this time, I thought this T was heaps better than any other T I’ve seen and (based on what I’d read here of other people’s stories) I thought, I’ll do that, instead of cutting and running I’ll just make myself turn up session after session regardless of how crap it might be, in the hope that things would work as you are describing it.

The thing is, it’s my life between sessions that’s the problem – I’m just marking time waiting for something to ‘work’ in therapy that I can carry over into my life, some sort of connection or continuity or sense that what’s happening in therapy is important and relevant. But I leave a session and write up my notes and that’s that. I’m faced with x days of living with myself and nothing to help with that. Whatever I’m doing in therapy has no bearing at all on the rest of the time. I don’t look forward to therapy, I don’t feel understood AT ALL by T, I’m hanging onto hope alone that something about the sessions will actually be helpful in some way, I flounder and get really messed up because I don’t know what I’m supposed to BE doing to get better and I get no direction or guidance or reassurance from T about that at all (despite having asked umpteen times what the hell is this meant to be about!) I keep waiting for the day when ‘work’ actually begins, when I feel like I’m actively DOING something in therapy but it all just seems so circuitous and aimless and oh ack I’m going off into ramble mode again, sorry. I have so many grievances about therapy and current T that I could fill dozens of pages of post with it, so I had better stop.

You know I’m really glad to hear you say that you wouldn’t have changed anything about having experienced what you did with GuruT. I don’t know why, but that sounds a really positive thing to say. Thanks for your kind words. (((( Beebs ))))

LL

(((( Incognito )))) If it’s any consolation to you at all in what you are going through in your therapy, your experience and telling me about it (and what I’ve read on forum) REALLY gave me perspective on what’s going on for me. I’ve seen you struggle and struggle with all sorts of awful stuff vis a vis therapy and the fact that you keep going, keep working through it, keep hanging in there, despite it all, made me feel, well, not so alone and abnormal and like there’s something really wrong with me for getting so panicked about it all. Thank you.

LL

TN you’ve said so much, thank you, and thank you for continuing to support me when I hid away.

I do accept that things get worse before they get better, I just don’t expect the worsening to be caused by T and the therapy itself. See you feel safe and trusting enough in your T TO be able to call him for reassurance and comfort, despite that it’s his responses to you that have made you feel so bad – I just don’t feel like that at all towards T – the LAST thing I want to do is go to him for comfort, he’s the one who’s caused this crap. So I’m always dubious about the feeling worse part, it just seems to me to be feeling worse about the very things I’m trying heal in therapy, and not feeling worse because I’m actually dealing with the stuff I’m in therapy for, which is how I’ve always understood that comment.

Dunno if you or anyone else has felt this way, but I found myself yesterday while in the middle of a phase of rage at T, feeling that to go in on Friday and treat him as good and caring and concerned and interested would be GIVING IN. Like here’s someone who had really hurt me, had denied me something I need and want, uncaringly, unthinkingly, oblivious of how it’s made me feel, and I’m stuck in this box absolutely furious in an utterly powerless way, knowing that the other doesn’t give a toss how I feel and if I want to go away and spit the dummy in the dirt so be it, they don’t care, it means nothing to them. And that if I do follow my own feelings and do go away, do leave, do keep myself withdrawn, then I have to give up all hope of getting anything emotionally for me. So I have to stuff my anger and fury and hurt and act all nicey nice and treat the person as good so they will, maybe, arbitrarily, be nice to me again. It really feels like giving in and I was having a really hard time even thinking that I wanted T to know how badly he’d hurt me, I just wanted to lash out at him and spit in his face and storm off. Luckily I don’t feel quite so negative towards him now and equally luckily that I don’t do out of session contact with him because I’m pretty sure I would have said some devastatingly negative things to him… I’m rambling again sorry.

I don’t really understand what you mean by trusting the process (I’ve heard it often before too, and just accepted the words without understanding them.) I would GLADLY relinquish all control if only T would take it. I’d happily stop turning myself inside out trying to work out what the hell I’m supposed to be doing in therapy, but every T I’ve ever seen has always just left it entirely to me to ramble on forever and a day without doing or saying anything to let me feel like there actually IS a process. It feels like working in a vacuum. How do you lean on your T? How do you know there is a process and not just an endless continuum of unrelated brief points of meeting in time, with no real continuity nor sense of progress or building on what’s gone before? Genuine questions, I really do not understand what the process is about.

I think I do get what you mean when you were saying about my trying to explain my internal set up to T that it’s a way of preventing him getting to know me and forming his own opinions, and actually I’ve been trying to be more transparent and less wordy about everything. The problem is in his responses (or lack of them rather). He may well be forming opinions and getting an idea of what’s going on in me, but he’s not letting me know what they are. Here’s an example – I’d been telling him about a time when I was about 4 and I got off my seesaw and bashed my best friend at kindergarten because she was wittering on about her mummy and when the big mean punishing adults confronted me about why I hit her I said because she’s got a mummy and I haven’t. And T says, you were envious. End of conversation. Well I went back the next session and said, ‘sod you what’s the point of stating the obvious, d’you think I don’t know that that would be labelled envious? Well for your information I wasn’t envious I was angry and upset and confused and frustrated and hurting and I just lashed out so bloody envy doesn’t even get a look in thank you very much. You SHOULD have said, it’s perfectly understandable why you would have hit that girl, let me know that you understood how I might have been feeling,’ and he said, 'but I do think that it IS perfectly understandable I said that,' and I said, no you only said that I was envious and that was that. And he was convinced he’d conveyed to me in some way that he really did understand how I would have been feeling and why but HE NEVER SAID. So how am I to know what his views and understanding of me are when he never conveys them to me. I have dozens of examples like this and it doesn’t seem to matter that I’m constantly telling him that when he thinks he’s conveyed something to me I haven’t actually heard it, he just doesn’t get it. Grrrrrrrrr.

Sorry TN that just all sounded like I was criticizing what you said and I don’t mean to at all, I’m just totally confused by what therapy is supposed to be about. And I am so very grateful for your support and especially your encouragement to keep posting. I did feel very much like just quitting the forum altogether and if it hadn’t been for you guys I know I would have. So doubly thank you.

LL

xoxo thank you for sharing about your conversation with T re speaking directly to the inner child. Lol I’m immediately defensive about it feeling like saying, well if you were able freely and without encouragement or permission to interact with T from your child self, would you need therapy? I can see what he means though and even though you were actually asking him for something, he managed to point out how you didn’t really need to ask, you could have just ‘taken’.

I compare with my current T, and I think perhaps it’s the fact that you’ve established such a close connected and trusting relationship with your T that you’re able to take in things that he says that might seem critical or negating or distancing without experiencing them that way. Because I'm nowhere near believing in or trusting my T, any kind of major rupture lays me out as I can't fall back on a sense of a previous solid relationship with him. And if there are too many ruptures before that relationship gets established, then they are just going to destroy it anyway. I'm in a moot frame of mind at the moment, willing to go back and not quit right this moment, but I'm generally not too hopeful that it's going to get much better

You are probably right in that I don’t reveal as much about my internal set up as I think, but I’m a bit hampered in that the only way I can convey the madness in my head is through words. It’s not possible to act it out or show it in any way and until and unless I feel I can trust someone to have a basic understanding of what’s going on in me, without words the only expression of it is in silence, fear, withdrawal, paranoia – the complete opposite of what therapy is all about. See I’ve got this definite split between my external learned persona, the one who uses words and intellect and reads books and actually doesn’t really KNOW very much about very much, and the internal me who is a paranoid mess (who holds all my feelings.) So I’ve got this imperative to ensure that a T understands at least intellectually what’s going on in me otherwise it’s very dangerous and psychically destructive to try and expose any of that paranoid mess to someone who reacts to me as if I’m a normal functioning human being. Hm this is sounding like bollocks again, it’s so very hard to explain. So I’d better not keep trying

Thank you for supporting me in not giving up on therapy. Yesterday I was very much in the throes of deciding to quit and reading here has helped me get a reality perspective. So thank you again.

LL

((((((( DF )))))))

quote:

I also hear you saying that you've got it all figured out (your inner world) when I read that I smiled because... that's how I felt too!! For so long! I told my Ts EXACTLY how it was I operate, work, what I think, how my internal world is. But... I've learned... that's my internal world according to me and according to what I knew about me. As I've been in therapy and grown and trusted... and let someone SEE the inner part (not just HEAR about it from me) whoa boy... has that caused some change in how I work. I thought I'd figured myself out and it's the little openings I allow sometime that open me up where I learn a whole bunch (and hurt a whole bunch) and it changes all that stuff I "knew" or gives me a different way to look at it, play with it... it made me curious about myself and curious about how I feel and curious about new ways to look at myself.

Had to quote the whole of this paragraph because it’s one of the things that really jumped out at me when I first read your post and makes all sorts of sense and got me feeling really hopeful because the way you’re describing how you presented your knowledge of your internal world is exactly what I’m always trying to do. And then when you began finding out that actually maybe there were things about yourself you didn’t know, yeah that made me look up hopefully! I would love it if someone could somehow show me or let me see that there are things about myself that I don’t already know, that I haven’t already seen and incorporated into the status quo.

You know I think that’s why the realization that my T isn’t actually interested in me, not me the person (oh ok to be fair maybe he is but he’s certainly not showing that interest to me, and as far as I’m concerned I’m incapable of believing in something that to all intents and purposes doesn’t exist, if it’s only in his head and not evident to me as well…) sorry for the loooong bracket inclusion – anyway that’s why this realization totally ko’ed me – because I SO long for someone else to know me, to know the stuff inside, to WANT to know the hell inside and understand it and help me sort it all out – and I was feeling like a cowed little puppy who is suddenly given a friendly pat and its ears perk up and it looks up expectantly and the next thing whammo another smack on the muzzle Ack I’m being a bit sentimental here but it really really really floored me emotionally. And I hate it that I let myself believe something just because I want to believe it not because it’s actually true

I love that you talk about being curious about yourself – that’s the only way I ever get anywhere with what’s going on in me, when I think there’s something new to find out, then I’m happily ferreting away and digging things up and really interested to find out what’s what. The moment I ‘know’ though it gets assimilated into the status quo and it all goes flat and there’s no curiosity anymore and it all feels like same old same old. Which is why I take myself off to therapy because I’m trying to understand myself from a limited perspective – and I’m already biased and can’t seem to change that bias by myself. But by god I’m getting fed up to the eye teeth with Ts who seem to assume the same bias that I already have. I need someone who’s willing to do what your T does, look for the chinks and help you open them a bit wider, not just reinforce the status quo.

I also love the way you ‘do’ therapy in so many different ways (I mean the body work, but also how you can carry it over into things like painting.) In fact reading about the work you do with DBT T, the somatic work, and reading your post here did actually make me realize that I’m totally divorced from my body, I’m just a head on legs and that though my feelings might originate in my mind, they’re actually present in my body and I just seem unable to connect to them. I’d love a T who does somatic work but at the same time I’d be far too terrified to go anywhere near body work until and unless I trusted the person doing it – cue repeat repeat repeat and catch 22 all over again. I’m even scared to go get a normal massage or do reflexology, both of which I’ve done and found myself spending all the time totally uptight and stressed out and defended that it was almost counterproductive. And that wasn’t even therapy.

Oh your words ‘my language’ is SO VERY MUCH what I always long for from a T. Ages ago, years ago I remember saying to new Ts ‘I wish you would do an R D Laing, and learn to speak MY language’. I suppose it all takes time *SIGH*

You also hit the nail on the head when you talk about a T helping me be more interested in me. It’s not something I can manufacture by myself (though I try.) I can only see that happening if T himself shows interest in me, a kind of learning by mirroring or reflection or whatever… I dunno.

Anyway, thank you again SO much for your post, not only did everything you say hold a lot of meaning for me, the very fact that you posted at the time you did meant a huge amount. I was literally about to delete stuff and take myself off the forum (obviously was in a ‘I’m quitting everything to do with therapy’ frame of mind) and it just, well, stopped me. So thank you, very much. (((((((( DF ))))))))

LL

p.s. Lol yeah what are ‘Cliffs notes’?

I’ve just reread the reams I’ve written and I don’t seem to have done a very good job of replying properly to what everyone has said, it’s ended up being all about me me me. And not very coherent at all either. I’m obviously not back to ‘normal’ yet. I’ve also written so much it’s unlikely anyone will want to risk replying. But that’s ok, I think I just needed to say some of what’s been going on for me these last couple of days.

Thsnks for listening, as Morethan Freeman is saying on the ads (British tv pun on Morgan - More Than is an insurance company.)

LL

((((((((LL)))))))))

Jumping in kind of late here and just wanted to send a great big hug. It sounds like you are beating yourself for believing at least for a little while that your t is/was interested in you and now you've realized that he really isn't and you feel Like a big fat fool.

Even if he wasn't interested in you LL (and I'm nit agreeing with you here just throwing this out for the sake if argument) why would it be si bad for you to want that? And why would you beat yourself up for believing for a short time that your t was interested in you? And if he truly is not, then shame on him. And you have every right to be angry with him. of course you need your t to be interested in you. How could you do therapy if he wasn't? That would be asking too much.

Just wanted Ti send big cyber hugs and good wishes for your session tomorrow. I am crossing my fingers that you are able to convey just how crappy you felt this week and why and that t rises to the occasion. Let us know how things went if you are able.

Xoxox

Love
Liese

quote:

I found myself yesterday while in the middle of a phase of rage at T, feeling that to go in on Friday and treat him as good and caring and concerned and interested would be GIVING IN. Like here’s someone who had really hurt me, had denied me something I need and want, uncaringly, unthinkingly, oblivious of how it’s made me feel, and I’m stuck in this box absolutely furious in an utterly powerless way, knowing that the other doesn’t give a toss how I feel and if I want to go away and spit the dummy in the dirt so be it, they don’t care, it means nothing to them. And that if I do follow my own feelings and do go away, do leave, do keep myself withdrawn, then I have to give up all hope of getting anything emotionally for me. So I have to stuff my anger and fury and hurt and act all nicey nice and treat the person as good so they will, maybe, arbitrarily, be nice to me again. It really feels like giving in and I was having a really hard time even thinking that I wanted T to know how badly he’d hurt me, I just wanted to lash out at him and spit in his face and storm off.

Oh dear LL... it seems to me by what you have written above that you are having a major transference episode with your T. Even the most uncaring, unintelligent T could not provoke a rage like that if there was nothing behind or underneath that. I think so much of what you describe above is truly emanating from your childhood losses and the anger is more likely directed at your caregivers, not T. I think you need to tell him about this. Tell him about the rage you felt and maybe you can trace it back with his help and difuse it a little. Does your T ever say anything much? The way you describe him sounds like he just sits there and nods. I know some Ts talk more than others (mine has the Irish gift of gab )but I hope he at least points out relevant things that you say or corrects your cognitive distortions about how you see things or asks some questions.

As for trusting the process... that is a tough one to describe. I think it means allowing the attachment to form, acknowledging that transference is very likely to happen, that you WILL project lots of sh-t on your T, that there WILL be disruptions (and repairs), that the relationship will continue to grow and grow stronger, that it will take a long time, that you have to just keep going and slogging through the muck, that you will alternately hate your T and love your T, that you will hate therapy and love therapy, that you will want to run, that you will fear intimacy with someone and you will kick and scream to avoid it, that you will be so terrified of abandonment you will consider running away from T and therapy much of the time, that you will engage in all sorts of crazy defenses to avoid talking about the most painful things. In the end, I truly believe, that it's the relationship that heals. You just need to muster all your courage to allow this other person to know you in an intimate way. And at times you may need to just take a small leap of faith (unless of course your T is incompetent or unethical then run) that you will eventually see improvement if you keep at this. Therapy is not for the faint of heart and only you can decide if you want to slog through that muck and face the terrifying process of allowing someone to know you, the real you, the inner you and still stay, and if you can tolerate the fear and agony that comes from getting to the core of your old pain.

The process is going through all of that and knowing that this is what is supposed to happen in therapy and that when you come out the other side, you will see positive changes and a release of the old grief and pain. That now you now carry your T as your internalized attachment figure and secure base and this enables to you go out into the real world with a new sense of self-esteem, confidence and perspective. Gee I hope some of this makes sense to you

While I encourage you not to give up easily, I do understand if you choose to walk away. I would never presume to judge anyone for leaving therapy. But if you are just hitting a rough patch and need some encouragement, then I am here to support and help you in any way that I can.

I hope your session goes well or is productive for you. I'll be thinking of you.


TN

quote:

As for trusting the process... that is a tough one to describe. I think it means allowing the attachment to form, acknowledging that transference is very likely to happen, that you WILL project lots of sh-t on your T, that there WILL be disruptions (and repairs), that the relationship will continue to grow and grow stronger, that it will take a long time, that you have to just keep going and slogging through the muck, that you will alternately hate your T and love your T, that you will hate therapy and love therapy, that you will want to run, that you will fear intimacy with someone and you will kick and scream to avoid it, that you will be so terrified of abandonment you will consider running away from T and therapy much of the time, that you will engage in all sorts of crazy defenses to avoid talking about the most painful things. In the end, I truly believe, that it's the relationship that heals. You just need to muster all your courage to allow this other person to know you in an intimate way. And at times you may need to just take a small leap of faith (unless of course your T is incompetent or unethical then run) that you will eventually see improvement if you keep at this. Therapy is not for the faint of heart and only you can decide if you want to slog through that muck and face the terrifying process of allowing someone to know you, the real you, the inner you and still stay, and if you can tolerate the fear and agony that comes from getting to the core of your old pain.

From out here in the peanut gallery, this is the most realistic description of therapy I have ever read.

Thsnks so much TN for your reply, and for explaining the process so clearly

Not so many words from me this time, just posting to say thanks, and to report that my session today was pretty disastrous and I'll be taking myself off forum and into hiding for a while. Haven't actually quit but it's probably on the cards so...

Things are a bit dodgy for me at the moment, so am heading off to keep myself safe.

Thanks for your support

LL xxx

((LL))

I haven't read the whole thread and it looks like things have changed a bit since the beginning. I was going to agree with you about the abstract thing. My old therapist called me abstract in about the second or third session. I actually liked it when she said that but I didn't realise at first how much I do it. She always drew my attention to it and tried to bring me back into the room.

I hope things settle for you soon.

Take care
x

(((((LL))))) I am SO sorry your session was so disasterous that you felt the need to take yourself off the OF in order to stay safe and take care of yourself. Of course I am concerned about you and hope you are okay. I'm very sorry if your T was not open and receptive to your worries and concerns about therapy. I had hoped he and you would be able to work things out to your satisfaction and enough to keep you in therapy for awhile longer. I surely hope my posts did not make things worse for you.

Take care of yourself and when you decide to come back we will be here waiting for you with a pot of tea.

You will be in my thoughts.

Hugs
TN

(((LL)))

I'm sorry that the session was terrible. I know how that feels. Take care of yourself. Do what you need to do to keep yourself safe. I'm with xoxo in saying that this is the therapy and while it has a different flavour for all of us it is so painful and difficult. I will be thinking of you and hope that things improve.

LL, I have finally had a chance to catch up on your thread, and now I see that you need to go for awhile...it's ok. Everyone needs to do that from time to time, please know that we are here as we can be, and care when you come back. I am so sorry that the session felt so disastrous. I hope that you will keep safe, and let us know how you are doing when you find enough peace inside to be able to do so safely.

I also wanted to second everything TN said so well before. I also want to be very honest with you about what I an feeling as I read your post. Plug your ears if you want? I think that you are finding every possible way to avoid having one T, to stick with the T long enough to form a relationship, and I think that all T's carry transference for you, for some reason. It's almost like T equals zap, transference, (as I see it.) That must be an incredibly painful place to reside, and I am so sorry for your pain. But I also tend to think, ( if you want my opinion, I really don't mean to be presumptuous, I am just offering my thoughts as they may (or may not) help you to see yourself through another lens than one of your own making...that at this point, you cannot possibly get *more* hurt by any T. You literally have nothing to lose- so there must be something inside of you that is stopping you from pursuing a long-term therapy with just one T. It is likely that it is from the pain, of abandonment being triggered- it may just be that simple. No T can figure out for you, what is going on inside. You are there to have another person to hash it all out with, so that you can make some sense of yourself, your reactions, and int the context of a caring other.

hm- if you want my opinion- I also tend to think that this forum (reading, not posting) could be very seriously hampering your ability to "go with the flow" of what a therapist can offer. If you are like me- than you could be coming here with a shopaholic kind of attitude about therapy- I want that- and that- and one of those too! But no human person can fill that need. However you can come to terms with those old, painful needs- perhaps, in therapy- or amybe elsewhere. It doesn't really matter where or with whom. I've often wondered if this forum could fill for you (in the sense of getting support for your day-to-day life issues) might work well. It is very true, that you never talk about your day-tp-day problems, anxienties fears- something is preventing you from wanting to face that. It may help to ask yourself, what, or why, it is easier to dwell in the realm, of hating therapists, hoping ofr caring therapists- so I, personally, think that this therapist is on the *extremely* right track in trying to get you to do just that- focus on the here and the now- gradually you can go back there, but he needs to get you into a place where therapy can be used to help you with day-to-day issues and grounding, before he can talk about all that other stuff with you. It is absolutely crucial that you be in ok, supportive, trusting enviroment with both him, and with outside people too, before you can even consider to do any serious talking about where your problems may have originated from. Rust me, I *do* understand, and experience your hopelessness about therapy- and you are very right- therapy is certainly not a cure-all or a panacea. It is one thing among many other things, that can help us towards the goal of feeling ok within ourselves about who we are and our life. You simply have not given this nearly enough time to even know if it is possible to get somewhere with this fellow. You may not find that therapy can fill your needs- but it can certainly help you to find out what those needs actually are- and slowly learn to ge them met in everyday life.

I am going to share with you, something. My relationship with my H is changing profoundly. This is a very, very good thing. It is due, in large part, to all of things that Guru T taught me, that I ralied agaionst, took personally, hated him for, and avoided. Now that guru is no longer a part of my life, I have slowy found that I must apply them (asking to have my needs met, simply, with no guile) if I want to survive. It has been agonizing to say things to my H like "I need to feel cared for by you." and "I need you to try to understand me, and make me feel like I matter more than anything to you." But it hasa slopwly, transformed things. At first I didn't feel althing- now it gets slowly, better, and I feel more rather than just saying it out of desperation. So that is one way that therapy I fought bitterly against while I was in it- has helped me to open up and let love in- ask for love.

ok, LL, off the soapbox I will get- but please know that everything I write here is coming from a place of caring about you, and hoping that it may be possible for you to find the strength to persevere, and let go of some of those hopes, inorder to let other new things, better things that don't feel better, rioght now- come in.

oh, sorry so many, many typos. Very tired, LL, but sending you much love, and a lot of hugs,

Beebs

Ohhh thank you Tygr xoxo TN Incognito and Beebs for your concern and sympathy.

I wasn’t coming back to say anymore on this thread but I really don’t want to leave anyone thinking that it’s what they’ve written that was responsible for my wanting to go off forum for a while, far from it!

And I very much appreciate what’s been said, all of it

I’m hurting very badly I suppose, having put so much faith in therapy and finding that even a T whom I thought was more with it and accepting is turning into the enemy, and it’s a minor form of torture at the moment reading about other people’s therapy – that’s all I meant when I said I was taking myself off forum to be safe.

Fwiw the whole of my last session ended up centring on my T, he spent most of the session justifying himself and doing a really good job of blocking everything I was asking and saying to him. He didn’t ask a single question and wasn’t the slightest bit interested in trying to understand (or help me understand) what had put me in this bad place, he made it all about him (which he does a lot anyway). Whatever vaguely positive sense of connection with him I’d been developing was totally severed. How do you keep going back to someone who shows no interest involvement or understanding

I will be going in again to see him on Monday and I’m not preparing myself to quit in that session, but that’s about as much as I can manage at the moment. And that’s just sheer desperation because without him there is no-one and nothing else and that terrifies me more than the damage this guy can do (now there’s an enactment if ever I understood the meaning of the word.)

Thank you again so much everyone for your amazing support and concern

LL