Hi CT,

amazing, I've noticed this too recently - and you describe what happens so well! Not 'knowing the answers' makes me really, really uncomfortably worried. It feels like letting my defenses down whilst processing and not having resources available to defend myself if (well, to my thinking probably when), an attack happens and defence becomes necessary. I have a session later and wanted to try to not think of what to bring to it, but I'm feeling worried already what might come up.... did i say worried??? scared and really fuzzy in the head!

The advance figuring system, do you reckon it also has something to do with working towards approval from others? The idea of feeling something 'bad' (not sure what that means in detail) and being rebuffed for it (now why would I think that might happen ) is just so APPALLING!

My mum became an alcoholic when I was a teenager. Don't think she was more than a heavy social drinker before that time. Does that make me a child of an addict???

SB

CT,

Yes, I have a drive to figure everything out...at least when it comes to something that's causing me serious distress.

I keep trying to get answers - technical cause and effect answers - to a lot of things and, as far as therapy goes, there ain't a lot of concrete explanations for anything, which of course drives me nuts.

I'm less afraid of being visible than I used to be. Once, when I was probably in 3rd or 4th grade, I was on the bus coming home from school. I was the last kid to be dropped off, but I was so small and quiet that the bus driver didn't know there was one more kid left. He started driving back to where they park the buses before he finally spotted me. I think this was more out of intense shyness than anything.

Russ

The visibility thing. . .

I don't feel like I have to know all of the answers, but I have a different visibility issue. It has to do with shame and vulnerability. When I feel vulnerable, I feel an overwhelming sense of shame (I think it's all wrapped up in not getting my needs met when I was little, I would have needs, feel vulnerable because I had needs, and not get them met and feel shameful that I had needs. I then associated vulnerability with shame.). I don't want anyone to see me. In fact, in therapy, I actually hide under a blanket and my jacket the entire time, because the sense of vulnerability that comes about there is so intense and brings about so much shame. I can NEVER even look my therapist in the face. I don't even know what she looks like, because I can't look at her. I ask her not to look at me, so if I happen to accidentally glance her way before or after a session, she's always looking down.

I also cover my face during other vulnerable activities, when I'm sleeping or having sex.

My parents were not addicted to alcohol or drugs. But, they were addicted to fundamentalist Christianity. It's a different thing than being addicted to drugs or alcohol, but it brings about it's own set of issues.

So, I wonder if your fear of visibility has to do with being vulnerable. If you don't know the answers, you're vulnerable, right? Then maybe you feel like people can see you and your needs or weaknesses. Then, maybe you feel shame. What do you think? . . .Just a thought.


A book that helped me tremendously was "Healing the Shame that Binds You" by John Bradshaw. It's a psychology/self-help classic, and it's right on. (It might be a good discussion book for this forum.)

Hey there CT

I have the same problem with always wanting to know the answer and it makes me nuts when I can't figure it out on my own too. This whole PT business had really cramped my style because I knew nothing about it. When I started to talk about transference to my P one day, her first question was something like "How did you know about transference?". I basically told her that I read a lot and I need to figure out whats going on with me, faster than she is I'm working up the courage to ask her to lend me a text "Insight In Psychotherapy" so that I can more understand the technique she is using and apply it to myself when I am trying to help myself. I've always been very self sufficient, and have rarely asked for help from anyone - so knowing things is the best way to cope and do self healing when you need to So I always do some research, or ask questions before my sessions so that I am on top of things.

As for the visibility stuff. I am glad that I am allowing myself to be more visible. People used to tell me that they were afraid to approach me because I looked like a bitch, and they had no idea that I was so nice. When I would go out with my partner, I would often just follow her around like a lost puppy (a few feet behind), and turn away as though I wasn't with her when she talked to someone incase she planned to introduce me. I never said anything to anyone at gatherings because I didn't want to be put into a situation where I had to make conversation because I don't know how to do it in real life (as a child I was to be seen, not heard and that clearly carried forward to my adult life). Staying in the background was what I was good at. When I first started to see my P (my GP pretty much told me that I had to go see one) I couldn't look at her, I felt like a fool being there (I used to think that only whiners and complainers went to therapy, and I am neither), I didn't want to say anything to her except that there was nothing wrong, and that I could fix it myself with time. I did that not only because I feel like I have taken care of myself since the age of 7, but also because I didn't want to be visible to anyone, including her and if anyone could truly see ME or figure ME out it would be a Psychiatrist. That was and still is scary for me that she can see things about me that I haven't even figured out for myself!

I have also read in the book " Adult Children of Alcoholics", that these behaviors are common for those of us that had to live with alcoholism and addiction all of our lives. I find a lot of commonalities between myself and the typical adult child of an alcoholic.

Hmm, I think I might have gone off track a bit ... basically in a nutshell - you aren't alone CT!

Holly

I just want to mention that like Holly, I too, look up and read everything I can about therapy and psychology and I try to be one step ahead of my T... although he is a pretty smart guy. I think want to find the answers ourselves because we are so used to doing for ourselves and not being able to ask our parents for anything. I know that I felt I could not ask my parents and so I would go find a book and look things up. Too bad there was no internet in those days!

I wanted to make a comment also about looking at our Ts when in therapy. My T and I have very good eye contact. I look straight at him probably 85% of the time. And if I look away it's when I'm trying to focus and remember something and I look at the picture over his fireplace or sometimes out the window behind him. He knows when I cannot look at him and he sort of moves his head and tries to reconnect with my eyes. He seeks the contact and most times I will allow it. I have hidden myself for so much of my life that I don't want to hide from him. I want him to "see" me. What I wanted to stress here is that there is SO much that gets communicated non-verbally in therapy and if you are not looking at your T you are missing this huge connection with them and it detracts from the intimacy. I see so much in my Ts eyes that helps me deal with my own feelings. I can see empathy, understanding, caring and I can see my own pain there too. I have seen him cry with me and I also see the teasing glint, the amusement when I joke with him, the respect he has for me and the warmth of our relationship. I also watch him fiddle with his pen, tilt his head, and I can recall how he crosses his leg and what kind of clothes he wears. I would miss all of this if I did not look at him.

So for those of you who do not look, try starting with quick glances, or a peek at their face once in awhile. What you will see will strengthen your connection and help in your healing.

BTW, I think that the hiding and making oneself invisible comes from either being the child of substance abusers or physical abusers. You come to realize the less you are noticed the better and safer it is for you.

Just my opinions.

TN

Hi TN,

Your comments about looking at your T are so valid and true.

I know people with visibility issues, are timid, afraid or untrusting and find it hard to make the eye contact, or to trust that people aren't judging them. I'm sure that there are people out there that have more serious reasons from childhood for why they cannot look people in the eye, or to allow people of authority to look at them. It's very sad.

As I said, I have had those visibility issues, but as a functioning adult I MAKE myself have eye contact when dealing with clients, employers and fellow employees, I have no problem doing so with my friends and close family. I look directly at them when I am being spoken to or when I am speaking to them. It shows a level of trust with that person as well as respect. So when I'm working with my P, I used to force myself to look at her and to monitor her responses just as she is mine. This shows her that I am listening and that I'm interested, and when I talk she gives me the same attention. Now if I don't look at her it is because I feel stupid about something I said to her, or if I am stuck for something to talk about.

Mind you, that said - if I didn't look at her so much and see her smiles, laughs and other things about her that I like .. I wouldn't have the nasty transference issues I have with her! LMAO .. maybe hiding is a good idea in some cases!

I still have visibility issues around strangers or people I don't know well .. but I've been pushing myself to make conversations with people I wouldn't normally talk to, like a lady in the change room at the Gym, or someone waiting in line at a restaurant. I need to be the one to fix me, and if taking a risk is going to do it, then I need to do that or be stuck in therapy for the rest of my life and having no one to blame but myself for not taking the risk.

TN's opinion/suggestion is the same as mine .. just start with short glances and try to increase the time you look at people and before long you will be looking in their eyes, and enjoying the non-verbal communication too.

Holly

quote:

When I feel vulnerable, I feel an overwhelming sense of shame (I think it's all wrapped up in not getting my needs met when I was little, I would have needs, feel vulnerable because I had needs, and not get them met and feel shameful that I had needs. I then associated vulnerability with shame.). I don't want anyone to see me. In fact, in therapy, I actually hide under a blanket and my jacket the entire time, because the sense of vulnerability that comes about there is so intense and brings about so much shame. I can NEVER even look my therapist in the face.

WOW Catwoman, I can relate totally!!! I hide behind my hair. I must look a mess when I cry because my hair is stuck to my face but I am too afraid of sounding weird should I ask him to look away. I wish that he would. I have no problems anywhere else -- I don't mind looking people in the eye but in those session, whew! It's terrifying.

I've read the Bradshaw book -- in fact, my first therapist worked with his clients using Shame Therapy (I guess that's what it's called). I know that a lot of my strong feelings come loaded with guilt for having them in the first place.

You seem calmer than in past posts -- definitely more optimistic. Because it seems that you are a step ahead of me, I am hopeful that I too will reach a calm place soon. Thanks for your posts -- everything you've shared has been very helpful to me.

TN and Holly and anyone else who's interested:

I can look at most people, just not my T. But, with almost everyone, there are moments when I feel shame that I can't look at them. Sometimes someone will say something, esp. if it's something nice to me, and I get so embarrassed that I actually turn around. Depending on who it is, I try to play it off like I was looking at something. To my close friends, I tell them that I just got embarrassed. If for some reason, I feel exposed, I cannot look in anyone's eye. If I'm talking about my issues, even with a close friend, I look down. If I'm with someone who I see as some type of authority, like my daughter's teacher, I feel shame pretty quickly, and pretty much always look down.

I feel like I'm missing out by not looking at my therapist, but I just can't do it. I literally can't talk if I'm looking at her. As it is, I'm all squirmy in her office anyway. We joke that I'm like a burrowing animal and that I squirm around like a worm and that I flop all over the place. Sometimes, I worm my way, with my blankets and all, underneath a chair and do my session under there. (When I was a child, my safe place was under the table, laying across the kitchen chairs. I've always liked to be tucked in and protected.) If I were looking at her, I wouldn't be doing any therapy. I'd only be flopping and squirming the whole time.

There are things that I get by not seeing her. I've learned so much about her voice, and all of the inflections and inuendos. I know her smell so well. I know what her energy feels like. I don't need to see her, I sense her in other ways. Also, she rubs my back and my head through my covers and she holds my hand, so I just get a different experience than I would if I were sitting across from her looking at me, and it works for me. It's weird, actually, quite hilarious, how I act in there, but that's how I have to do it.

catgirl

Queen Grey,

I'm glad to find a fellow hider!

I'm also glad someone else has read the Bradshaw book. What did you think of it?

I am feeling quite calm. It's pretty nice for a change. I think my meds are really working. Also, I know my T is back from her trip, and I get to see her on Monday! I'm glad that you find my posts helpful. I find pretty much everything on this site and forum to be helpful. I'm so glad that I found it!

Hi CG,

I hope that you didn't think I was judging you, because I'm not. I understand fully that you have your reasons for needing to hide and I am very glad that it works for you and that you are able to communicate with your T by doing it. You made a good comment about how you 'sense' her. I never really thought that you would sense her as a visually impaired person would see/feel. That's wonderful! I look down or away from people when I feel shamed as well, but for myself I know I need to make myself return the eye contact to feel like I am being responsible for myself. But you know, after talking about all of this visibility stuff, I realized my mother used to cuff me in the side of the head and yell at me if I wasn't looking at her when she spoke to me, so I would try to avoid being hit by forcing myself to look at her. That's funny, I had forgotten about that until just this morning.

I'm jealous that your T is physical with you by rubbing your back and holding your hand. I think I would be more relaxed and more apt to feel my enotions if I had even a touch on the arm to show that my P was sincere. She's so rigid and has such firm boundaries it makes it hard to feel like she is interested in what I'm saying as opposed to being just a sounding board. Wah wah wah!

Have a good day

Holly

Catgirl,

Whew......I see that your parents were into fundamentalist Christianity. Mine too - a family full of pastors and missionairies. I've been to 2 bible colleges that I quit before graduation. SHAME is to be expected if you grow up with this type of constant exposure and teaching. My experience was of boundary invasion, basically not being allowed to be a separate self with thoughts and opinions and beliefs of my own. Ended up with huge shame and became a self abuser and part of the reason was because "I just knew I was so wrong" all the time for having opposing thoughts and feelings. My mom actually apologized to me a while back, saying she didn't know any better. She is still involved in the same denomination in a church my brother (a pastor, church planter) started but this church allows a tiny bit more freedom to be real. I had to put all things church related out of my life to recover. All the best to you as you work to get well,

Itshardtosay.

CG & IHTS

I get this -- the fundamentalist crap was shoved down my throat via TBN -- did anyone else have family that loved this TV station? It was out to extort the public of mucho cash but Mom loved it. I, too, was led to believe that being authentic was sinful and now I meet some of the criteria for borderline personality disorder. I don't, however, rage and get out of control -- I internalize my anger and have a two pain conditions, one that is rare, both are untreatable (I just have to live through them when they strike). Therapy has been about learning self-expression, confronting "splitting" and working thru transference. I LOVED the Bradshaw book. I like how he investigates the roles of everyone in a family and how shame can create not only depressed people but also people hooked on one emotion.

HBO and TN

Just to let you know. I didn't feel at all judged about any comment about whether or not I, or others, don't look at our therapists during therapy. I just was trying to point out that there are other things I get than the visual. It's all good.

I used to be so sensitive, and I would take a difference of opinion personally. Now, I usually don't. I know that we're all different and we all experience life differently. Again, it's all good.

Thanks for sharing your experiences about the benefits of not feeling like you have to hide all of the time.

QG and IHTS,
The fundamentalist stuff. . . Wow! Isn't it strong? Doesn't it have such a profound effect on every area of your life? Who thought up such a thing? This could be its own topic for me. I could go on all day.

catgirl

Thanks for all your responses everyone. I really appreciate it.

I've been feeling kinda sad this week, and I am really looking forward to seeing my T tomorrow. I wanna talk to her about this visibility stuff, and why it's so scary and hard for me.

I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I am realizing all the ways my caregivers urged me to be invisible. It's making me pretty upset, really, to think that no one wanted to get to know me or spend time with me. They just wanted me to "behave," which really meant "don't have any needs." Me having needs would have made them either take care of me or directly neglect me, but if i looked like I didn't have needs at all, then we could all pretend that everthing was ok.

Also swimming around in me are the implications that only bad kids were visible- anyone who made their needs known or expressed feelings (especially contrary ones) were labeled as "misbehaving." Good kids did what they were told and didn't make any noise... and I spent every moment trying to be the best kid. I went out of my way to not be seen... to not leave a trace. I would make my bed and sleep on top of the covers in order to appear like I hadnt messed anything up. I would not get out toys so no one would know that I was around. And I definitely did not make any noise. Drawing attention to myself was the most awful experience for me- even in my own home.

To make matters worse, everything was inconsistent. Some days i would get yelled at for dropping something and other days my mother would ask me why I was so quiet. Some days my mom would attempt to be interested in something I was doing, and other days she wouldn't even speak to me. I guess this whole visibility thing with my T is just scary because of all of the negative things "being noticed" meant for me when I was little. I feel like my T isn't gonna like what she sees when she "sees" me- that she's going to think I am stupid for having needs... especially childish, immature ones.

I know she is here for me to do all of this differently, but I can't help but feel embarrassed at the notion of this level of intimacy with her. What if she sees something in me that she doesn't like? What if I rock the boat somehow and she doesn't wanna be my T anymore? I'm scared but ready to talk to her tomorrow. I need her to know how upsetting all of this is to me and how uncomfortable I am with all eyes on an unprepared, unscripted me.

Thanks for reading.

-CT

CT
I am always a little paranoid that I'm going to screw up the relationship with my T and he'll drop me as a client. Today, he said (a little exasperated), "It seems like you are always trying to convince me that you are so horrible, and to tell you that you are bad but I'm not going to do it! That isn't what I think about you! You are just you, so there isn't any judgment involved."

Of course, I was mortified. lol