SG
You have every right to be hurt. Here you are willing to do the painful deep work and you have a T cutting you off because he's not willing to go there. I think the truth is sitting in the middle of what you wrote:

quote:

The reason I think I see a pattern is because both T’s seem to have had a strong aversion to my own involvement in my therapy. They seem to want to run the whole show, and appear irritated, condescending, and threatened by my being informed and pulling for a more collaborative approach. Once they get a whiff of that, they really seem to be in a hurry to get me out the door (without actually admitting it…again, just like with my dad, giving up would “look bad”, so they try to make it look good).

SG, did you hear yourself? Their concern was that they didn't want to look bad, so they tried to dress it up as good for you. Do you know what kind of people you described? The kind who have a problem with their being another person in the room with their own ideas, needs and thoughts. There are a surprising number of people who can't deal with it. I have often described my FOO to both my Ts as only one person could be left alive in the room. One of the shocking things that my T taught both my husband and I is that it really is possible to have two people with their own opinions, thoughts and feelings be together in the same room at the same time and honor both of them without one of them having to give up their own "self."

I think you're angry and for good reason, at a long line of men, trying to tell you not to be you. That's their problem, not yours. Who you are is fabulous and deserves to live, to express herself, to have her ideas taken seriously, and even to be celebrated. I know that all those things are obvious to those of us on this forum.

There was a deep delicious irony about the book you found that used that term "Therapy Veterans." I went and looked at the description and that book was written for your Ts!! Not you! And I mean that in the sense that the problem doesn't lie with the patient and their needs, the problem lies with the T NOT being open to the patient and their needs. If I were you, I would buy him a copy of the book as a goodbye gift and inscribe it as follows:

"For the sake of your future patients, I hope this helps."

My T has often talked about the tragedy of Ts so threatened by the worry of appearing anything but perfectly in control that they could not look beyond their theories or neat, pat understandings of the world. The truth is that life is surprising, and messy and often irrational, and incredibly beautiful because of all those things. Do you know why my T was so effective? Because he would approach each session by being open to wherever his patients were and however they were feeling and meeting them there.

As frustrating as this has been, your couples T has provided you with some really useful information. You've identified a long buried unmet need, to be accepted, love and enjoyed for who you are not by being forced to be someone you're not for the sake of someone else's convenience. And no, I don't think this means you need to avoid male therapists, I think it's a strong argument for you needing to work with a male therapist. But one who knows his ass from a hole in the ground. Oh dear, that was a little harsh. Let me re-phrase that, a man secure enough to not be threatened by having another human being in the room.

AG

I agree with AG and I hope you feel a bit less frustrated as the days pass. it sounds very tough, but you have got such a lot of insight out of this - and I love the sound of Earl, you were fortunate to meet him.
'Fraid I can't think of much else to say either, but thanks for posting, it was very insightful

SG,

I can't say anything more wise than what AG said, but I wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and hope that you can find a T that can help you work through all of this. (((hugs)))

Hi, SG...I just wanted to say I'm sorry that it's ending like this...it must be so hard to come to that point of investing so much in a therapy relationship only to realize that it isn't helping you...and all of the confusion around that. I've been at that point in my individual therapy so many times...but fortunately, it seems like my T was able to come through for me when the chips were down and I most needed it. It dowsn't sound like that is happening for you. I relate to your feelings of vulnerability around being the "smart" client. Gosh, my T used to say that to me all the time, stuff about how I'm curious and intelligent, and, like you, it made me feel really really threatened, and like I'd better start playing dumb, otherwise he'll throw me to the wolves...fortunately, that hasn't happened, but it's a really scary and oddly, an incredibly vulnerable place to be. I fear more than anything else, sharing my knowledge and understanding with my T!! That's probably why I send him so many emails...it seems like a safer way to do that, without having to experience his (potential) disgust at it. Probably all transferency to think that, but still...eeek.
I hope you can find a marriage T who will accept you as you are and appreciate and work with all of your knowledge and experience without feeling personally threatened by it. It's interesting...your thread has kicked up some memories for me...my dad's disgust and anger at me for "thinking and analyzing too deeply" Hm, but I just remembered my T said something like that last session, and it didn't seem threatening this time...I'll have to think about that. Your thread is kicking up some stuff I haven't thought about, SG. I hope you will get some resolution and some peace from it, too.

Best wishes to you and your h in the search. I hope so much you can find some wise and accepting guidance for both of your issues very soon, so that you can experience your marriage more fully as a union of love and support!!

Love,

BB

Thanks everybody for your replies. So far all I did was cancel this week's session (it was supposed to be today). We've still got sessions scheduled through November. My stomach is in knots...I don't want to go back, but I don't want to quit, but I don't want to have to look for another T. In other words, I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. And escape is looking really tempting right now.

AG, thank you for your very passionate and outspoken post. It helped a lot. In so many ways you give voice to what I'd like to be able to say. When I read your words, part of me thinks I've said something wrong or betrayed our couples T...and I want to doubt what I've perceived and backpedal and think, maybe I just didn't try hard enough...but the fact is, I DID try, VERY hard, and was very direct, I have given this LOTS of chances, and you are right, he is cutting me off and does not want to "go there". And that is certainly his right...I guess it is a boundary...as it is also my right to accept that and then go looking for someone who can take us to the next level.

The more I think about this, I think what happened is I misunderstood his advertisement for "attachment theory". He offers attachment theory-based therapy for children - the Circle of Security model was created for use with children - whereas I was looking for attachment theory-based therapy for two married adults.

I don't know if he recognized my misinterpretation, or if he really believes that the Circle of Security model is all we need. But either way, what he's done is he's used the model with us as far as it will go. It's a terrific pictorial representation of how attachment forms in childhood, and can help us understand where our patterns started...and it was effective in helping my husband and I begin to turn toward each other, instead of away...but I really feel strongly that we've reached the limits of its usefulness. And I also feel very strongly that my husband and I have a lot more work to do. I want us to try and untangle all the individual behaviors that resulted from that foundation, not to mention how our behaviors have played off of each other. But the Circle of Security doesn't go there...and, contrary to what our couples T seems to think, I don't think it was meant to.

quote:

Their concern was that they didn't want to look bad, so they tried to dress it up as good for you.

This is the way it looks to me...but I really wish there was some objective third party who had seen all our interactions and could tell me if I'm perceiving this correctly.

I think our couples T did his best to meet my expectations, and I do appreciate that. But I'm just really struggling with feeling disappointed, and also knowing I can't really express that without creating bad feelings. What I'm trying to say is I hate bad endings, but I just can't figure out how to end this well. I'd love to "help" him out by giving him a few books on attachment in adults...but I seriously doubt he would appreciate that, to put it mildly. And along with that, the little girl in me just cringes at the idea of offending him...because that would be a Bad Thing to do, and I'm supposed to be Good and Not Rock The Boat. KWIM?

quote:

Do you know why my T was so effective? Because he would approach each session by being open to wherever his patients were and however they were feeling and meeting them there.

Yes, this is what my individual T does, too. I wish I could find someone like that for our couples T. I love hearing about your T, AG. I think you are raising the bar for all our T's by sharing your experience, because it raises our expectations of them. And some of them (like mine) are feeling the pain...but that's okay...they're supposed to be able to take it, right?

You know what is so ironic about this? After having had several T's who have not met me where I'm at, and one who does...I have to say that NOT meeting a patient where they are at looks like it takes a WHOLE lot more energy and results in a LOT less progress. It's like the contrast between fighting against the current and navigating with the current.

quote:

As frustrating as this has been, your couples T has provided you with some really useful information. You've identified a long buried unmet need, to be accepted, love and enjoyed for who you are not by being forced to be someone you're not for the sake of someone else's convenience.

Wow, I really like how you put this...you are right, he has provided us with a lot...including what you said here...which has implications all the way back to the ex-BF and parents.

Thanks again, AG...as always, you've shed a lot of light onto the situation and I'm very grateful for that. Especially since I know you are missing your T so much right now...big hugs to you ((((((AG))))))

Draggers!! It's good to see you, I've missed you!! Thank you so much for the hugs...dragonfly hugs are especially healing. Here's some hugs back to you ((((((((Draggers))))))))

Sheychen...thanks for the encouragement...especially when I know how hard of a time you are having right now with what you are going through (((((Sheychen))))) You are right, lots of insights going on and that is good. Glad you enjoyed hearing about Earl...I enjoyed telling about him...he was a very special gift in my life when I really needed him.

Mad Hatter...thanks for the good luck wishes! Compassion and patience and attunement, yes...I hope we find it...and I hope you do, too. (((((MH)))))

STRM...thank you so much for the hugs and well-wishes (((((STRM)))))

BeeBee...yes you hit it, it is really tough to walk away from the "investment", to stop trying...I really hate that...I keep wanting to try "one more time" and wonder if I'm giving up "too soon". But then alongside this, I have an individual T with whom I felt attunement almost immediately...it was such a relief to NOT have to spend effort on that...where I can put the effort solely on my therapy...that is what I'd like to find for a couples T. Not easy, though.

And yes I would very much love to find a T who is okay with all my reading and curiosity and involvement...my individual T is, so I know they're out there...it has to be possible because even T's, who "know" a LOT more than I do, have to have their own therapy, so if they can still be teachable, then there's no reason that "knowing" how the process works has to get in the way...in fact I think it makes me a whole lot more open and trusting of what appears to be going on...as long as if they see me being obnoxiously unteachable, they will call me on it...because that is one of my worst fears, to "think I know everything". I don't think I think that...but then, do people who DO think that, ever think they do?

Oy vey...I think my thinker just tanked. Probably a blessing.

SG

Dear SG,

I'm really sorry you're going through this. It's very tough to WANT so badly to do the work and to be let down by the lack of 'being met'. I know how much upheaval there is in this. One question - how does your husband feel about the couples T and the possibility of ending with him & seeing someone else? Can you work together & be allies & each other's supports on this? That could make it a lot easier.

Big hug for you.
J

Hi Jones,

quote:

how does your husband feel about the couples T and the possibility of ending with him & seeing someone else? Can you work together & be allies & each other's supports on this?

Oooooh...you hit the mother-lode of nerves with that question, Jones. And it is a tricky one to answer specifically because of the way we "dance". THIS is why I want a couples T familiar with how attachment theory plays out in adult relationships. Let me explain.

One of the biggest reasons I want couples therapy is so that my husband will learn how to form opinions independent of mine, instead of (apparently) basing them on mine all the time. He is a champion people-pleaser, a chameleon, a shape-changer...a codependent in the extreme. Obviously I am also contributing to this dance, but now I'm trying to change...but I can't do that if he keeps "dancing" the same way...it feels like I keep getting "pushed" back into my old role.

So, that said, I don't know how my husband REALLY feels about any of this. He agreed to go to therapy for the same reason he agrees to just about everything...because that's what I wanted. He knows I'm unhappy with how things are going, so he's agreeing to end it. I basically run the show, and he lets me. And while on the one hand it's convenient, because I always get my way...it's also REALLY lonely and frustrating, because it feels like there's no relationship...just me and a walking, talking mirror.

Now I know there must be more to my husband than this. I'm guessing it's his attachment issues, in addition to my behavior, that are keeping him "hidden"...which is why I wanted a couples T who would help call me on my stuff, pull him out of his shell, and give us both a safe place to start interacting.

Let me put it this way: You know how a lot of couples go to therapy to STOP fighting? I would actually consider it progress for us to learn HOW to fight. We're so good at "getting along" that we go way too far into avoidance and keeping the peace at all costs. Which means there's a boatload of "stuff" that needs to come out, and it's not going to be pretty.

Oh, and the loneliness? That's because for all the "peace", there's zero true intimacy. That's another reason this T isn't working out...he sees how easily we "comfort" each other, a la "Circle of Security", and is so impressed. Maybe that's because "most" couples find that to be the hardest part...but we are different...we actually need help "fighting" (a.k.a. getting stuff out on the table, not sticking our heads in the sand). THEN we can do the comforting and making up part and have it actually mean something.

I know it sounds weird but I'm pretty sure this is what we need. I just don't think it's going to be easy to find a T who can think outside the box. Or outside the circle (of security), in this case.

Thanks for asking, Jones...thanks for giving me an opening to talk this out. It feels really good just to put words to it. I appreciate it especially knowing you yourself are having a tough go of it right now.

Big hugs for you too,
SG

SG, I really have to thank you for sharing this...I seriously thought I was the only person with a relationship like this! SG...aaaaaag! I find this so difficult...I just want to be married to another person. Not myself! I didn't know how to put it to words, but you did it. I need somebody to bump up against, sometimes! Instead, there is this huge, icky sweet marshmallow, who just has no backbone and no challenge, no opinions, no care, and it makes me realllllllly angry! (eek sorry!) And I have no respect for him, and that really hurts! wow. Would any T understand this? I'm not sure....or how much of this plays into the father issue thing. Wow, you've really got me thinking. I really feel for you, because while it may seem idyllic to be married to somebody who always lets you have your way...in reality, it is awfully painful and I think you need to find a T who can understand this dynamic. That will be hard, though. Mine could do it, but he won't even do us because it's over the computer and he says it won't work like that.

BB

Hi SG, oops that didn't come out right, sorry... I just mean I understand.

BB

BB! You're fine! I understood you perfectly...just haven't had time to respond yet. I totally thought you were saying you understood. Actually it is a relief to have someone understand...although at the same time I'm sorry you do, because it means pain and frustration for you, too.

You might as well have pulled these sentences right out my head:

quote:

I just want to be married to another person. Not myself!

quote:

I need somebody to bump up against, sometimes! Instead, there is this huge, icky sweet marshmallow, who just has no backbone and no challenge, no opinions, no care, and it makes me realllllllly angry! (eek sorry!) And I have no respect for him, and that really hurts!

Thank you especially for relating to the anger and lack of respect. It is awful because I feel so guilty sometimes, getting angry at a marshmallow...it is so crazy-making, I hold so much of it in because if I let it go I just squash him and I don't want to do that...but the mushier he gets, the more angry I get, and that makes him even mushier...there seems to be no solution...oh I just really want to run away sometimes!!!!!!! So I get it, I get it. I have told him so many times I want him to build himself up...and I am trying to build him up too, and back away so he can emerge...without completely disappearing myself...maybe if I say it about a million more times? I just wish I could find a T to help us so I didn't have to be our T. I just want to be one of the patients. I hope we can both find T's who get it too and help us create a more balanced relationship with our husbands.

In the meantime...anytime you need to vent, and you want someone to listen who understands...I'm here.

Big hugs to you BB
Love,
SG

Oh and I forgot one more thing...another feeling I fight is one of resentment...because if I had had my way, I would have chosen to be with someone where I had the "marshmallow" (meaning codependent) role. That really is my pathology of choice. So in a very strange way I resent this role...it is not what I would choose and it feels really wrong and weird. But neither extreme is ideal...ultimately what I'm trying to say is I want some balance in our relationship.

Okay I'm really going now...I just wanted to throw that out there in case you could relate to that too, BeeBee.

SG

Hi guys .... Are you sure you're not married to my husband? ... these is too wierd!!!! Well, I do get the sense that my T understands the dance because at my last session, he encouraged me to continue on my journey and kind of whatever happens, happens .... and to realize and respect that my husband is a REALLY nice guy ... who was raised by two diagnosed schizophrenics ... I always have the utmost in compassion for him .... I just need him to grow ... but I can't make him grow ... so I guess all i can do is focus on my needs and the kids .... and it is what it is ... right? I know that even in the end, if we have to divorce ... I will always love him and think of him as family .....

I also wanted to reply about being too nice to each other ... I remember when i first went to therapy, my therapist told me not to threaten him with leaving him to get him to come to therapy ... and my response was, I would never do that .... and I think in my heart of hearts, I always understood that I coudldn't tolerate being left and neither could my husband and I would never ever shake that bond of trust .... but in the end what you wind up with is two enmeshed people who are not meeting their own needs ... and on top of it all, we're teaching our kids to have the same kinds of relationships ..... and so if it winds up that I do leave him, I would only want to do it in a way to make him feel loved and as safe as possible ....

So I do think my T understands this and I think you will find T's who do .... as always ... don't give up .... keep looking or even ask your T if they get that????

Hi Liese,

I'm glad (?) this thread is helping you, too...

quote:

keep looking or even ask your T if they get that????

I've been wanting to ask our T if he gets it. After reading AG's post to Sheychen this morning, I've been really doubting my own perceptions and wondering if I'm just reading way too much into our couples T's behavior...he hasn't quit on us, he said he would go at our pace. One "marker" he said he'd noticed about us, that he sees as a positive sign, is that my husband accepts influence from me. Now, again, I think he is operating from a perspective where "usually" the man DOESN'T accept influence from his wife. I've been thinking about this "marker" ever since, and wanting to ask our T, "What does your model say about men who accept 'too much' influence from their wives, to the point they have no input or opinion at all?" I want to point out to our T that he's only looking at one side of the spectrum...there is another side. And I think we're over there.

Maybe I'll try to get through one more time at the next session.

SG

Hi Strummergirl .... You must have been posting at the same time as me .... I went back to read your response .... and i think I know exactly what you mean about being his T ... I've taken on that role myself ... but I think it's more about being needed .... I do it with my kids too ... I take over their lives because I live in constant fear of all the dangers out there and I need to protect them but at the end of the day, i resent it because there is no time left for me and I am emotionally exhausted ...... Within the codependent framework, someone always does the emotional work for everyone and that is me down to the core .... So i am working on letting that go and letting them all feel their own feelings and do their own work ... and just be there to support them when they need me ... maybe you don't need couples therapy right now ... maybe you need individual (maybe you go to individual?).... maybe your husband can't, for whatever reason, connect with his feelings ... and maybe at some point, you will have to accept that .....

maybe you are ready to grow and he is not .... at least not right now .... as long as you do his emotional work, he will not feel his own feelings of abandonment and be willing or not to do the work he has to do ....

That's really wacky .... that he said that ... I mean it is a good thing to be able to accept suggestions but to the extent that your husband has lost himself .....

About 9 years ago, my husband went to a male T because i made him ..... he was really stressed out at work ... anyway .... I had just had my third baby, was nursing my son, had a 19 month old and a 6 year old ... my husband was gone all the time ... he's a lawyer ... and he was so stressed out at work that he'd get up at 4:30 in the morning and not get home until late .... so anyway, one night he asks me to go to his with him ... and I say sure, because I want to support him .... so when I get there, I find out that he's complaining that he's not getting any sex .... and his male T wants to work with me so i can get the kids to bed earlier so i can make time to have sex with my husband ... and i really blew a gasket ... i couldn't believe that's why i was being dragged in there .... and I couldn't believe a T would really believe that was the cause of my husband's problems and that with nursing a newborn, I was supposed to role over whenever my husband wanted ... His therapist told me, "He misses you" .... yeah bullshit!!!! So if you really think your T doesn't get it, maybe you do have to find another one who does get ... I do really respect my T's knowleddge and intelligence (even if he didn't call me back) .... and trust that he always has my best interests at heart when he gives me any kind of direction .... He knows my kids struggle with relationships and it's all learned behavior .... I will always love my hubby even if he can't face his own pain .... I can't blame he really ... after what he went through ... Did anyone read the Glass Castle? His childhood was identical .....

As for the respect issue, might I respectfully add that that has more to do with us than with them .... we wouldn't respect ourselves if we acted that way ... but surely we can find a way to respect everyone on this planet (well, almost everyone) even if we didn't want to live with them, marry them, take them home .... or even just have dinner and a movie .... the point being is that we all need to individuate in order to unenmesh and only then will we be healthy and our children healthy .... and whatever happens in my marriage, I may or may not have to mourn but I will always love him ....

SG...can you explain this codependent thing to me...I know it's crazy but I don't really get what that means, and would like to learn it. My T doesn't really use terms, so while I suspect he's probably taught me stuff about this, I wouldn't know how to identify it by the term.

Thank you for the invitation to vent! Love it...You might regret, though. As far as "wanting to be the marshmallow..." I have to laugh, because it's so funny, but, I also see something very serious and sad in this. I too wanted to be the marshmallow! I guess that would be my pathology of choice as well...too funny. But...maybe...maybe just maybe...not. Think of it this way. SG...you really want a balanced relationship where there is give and take. While I relate to the sense of wanting to be the one who gets taken care of, protected, and loved with a firm kind of love that is "outside myself"...very much, yet...I, and I'm sure you, too, wnat badly to be enabled by *receiving* that kind of love, to return it in full measure! I suspect that your husband would be bowled over and overwhelmed with your deep love and concern, and caring maturity, too, should he ever learn to give you the kind of love that you need so badly. For me, it seems to come down to, wanting *him* to be the initiator of love. And not just in the bedroom (where nothing is happening because of this emotional dynamic between us anyway) but emotionally...in caring ways. I cringe to say it, but maybe it really is ok....to want my husband to care in paternal, masculine, fatherly ways. To *want* to take care of us, his family, *by himself* not to do it just because of being nagged or taught or begged, or mothered, whatever is the case, by me) It seems like the only areas my husband ever exhibits any real firmness, and real commitment to what *he thinks and owns* is in the areas where I express a need that would tax him in some way, especially monetarily. So many little things would express a firmer level of care, and would mean so much to me, that he is thinking about my well-being. For example, my husband is a LOT older than me. I asked him once, if he thought it would be a good idea to have life insurance since we have two small kids, and you get the picture. The answer, was for once, a firm no, we don't need that. Now...I could insist and on something like this we would have a silent fight, forever, if I won it. And he would punish me with his cold anger. But the rest of the time it's completely up to me, in the emotional areas of our relationship. There is just *nobody there* but me. And the anger, I at the marshmallow, and he at me for er, having needs and expressing them it seems......gosh...I'm realizing...we really need therapy. I'd better be quiet now! I might end up making you into our therapist if I'm not careful SG. I just find it really interesting and really sad, though, that you (and Liese, you too) have the same problem. It's such a weird little tricky hard thing to wrap my mind around and I'm sorry for you SG, because if you are like me, it hurts like hell. Many comforting hugs....keep talking!

BB

ps, sorry I made this so much about me, me, me

Hi BB ... we love to hear about you, you, you ... so please never apologize ... I learn so much by listening to everyone else's stories and there are so many similarities ...

I'm not good at explaining the co-dependent thing but if you google enmeshed families .... it has something to do with a family acting as a unit but not in a healthy way .... i guess maybe the fear of abandonment is so strong that no one is allowed to have their own emotions or identity ... then there is the emotional caretaker (me) and I do everyone else's emotional work because I don't know how to connect with people other than by being needed .. that's how I keep busy ... instead of focusing on my own needs, I worry about everyone elses ...but to their detriment because they don't learn how to cope on their own ....
other examples might be that ... sometimes one person has a bad habit, say drinking, and instead of really helping that person by refusing to give them money ... the enabler feels sorry for them and gives them money ... because if the enabler said no, the drinker would get angry and the enabler couldn't stand the drinker's non-approval ... i think ... i could be way off here .... I feel like I am all other the place with this definition but maybe it really means a lot of things .... there's not a lot of people taking responsibility for their own emotions ... take me, for instance, I worry so much about my children making friends that it keeps the focus off my own lonliness ... what I really need to do is to get out there and make friends but I get scared so .... and it often means that I expect other people to take care of my emotions .... and i get mad when they don't .... like I have some kind of unilateral contract with people that they don't know about ... for example, in the old days, before I started to heal ... I would respond to peoples needs expecting them to respond to mine as well ... and that didn't always work out ... I remember one mom who seemed to complain that my daughter ran away from her daughter at events ... so I would encourage my daughter to ask this girl to the movies ... but the truth was that my daughter didn't really like this girl that much ... and so I was teaching my daughter to stuff her feelings about how she felt about this girl just to take care of the mother's need ... but then .... I got really pissed because the mother didn't reciprocate .... and i felt like, geez, I'm taking care of your needs but your not taking care of mine ... but at the end of the day, i was screwing my daughter because I wasn't teaching her to connect with her own feelings .....

My relationship with my hubby isn't so great right now either .... We haven't done the dirty deed in 4 years ... and we just don't talk about it ... I don't want to do it with him but I sure think about it with Javier Bardem!!! LOL ... Anyway ... I've talked to my T about our problems and he knows we have problems but my husband won't go to therapy .... he says he will but he never calls .... My T has encouraged me to work on myself in the meantime ... I feel like I have so much work to do on myself that i am okay that my husband is okay with our relationship limping along ... I feel like I've given too much over the years ... worried so much about if people like me ..... that I've gotten resentful and overwhelmed and now I just want to focus on me, me, me .... and meeting my needs .....

Then there is the entitled one ... and the giver and they very often marry because they work so well together ... The entitled one feels, well, entitled to demand, demand, demand and the giver just gives .... Probably an entitled one had a giver as a parent .... and a giver had an entitled parent and so the pattern just keeps repeating itself ... and you never have that healthy give and take .... and I guess that's what I meant about respecting our husbands anyway ... because they are not aware of what drives them ... they are just repeating learned patterns of relating .... just like we are ... and we see how painful it is to undo it all .... and it would be just as painful for them ... and we should respect their boudaries ... maybe they just aren't ready now ... but that doesn't mean we have to give up our own growth ...

Does this make sense?????

There's a lot of *really* good food for thought here, Liese...thank you! I need to think it over some...

What do you think, SG?

BB

Thanks, Liese! I am sorry that you are feeling so emotionally exhausted and like there is no time left for "you". It is really tough. I know what you mean about wanting to take over for your kids, I want to do that too. Knowing when to help and when to step back is so incredibly challenging, not only because boundary work is challenging for people with backgrounds like ours in and of itself, but also because with our kids, the boundaries (should be) constantly changing as they get older and can handle more! And then you also have their individual personalities to deal with...it is the toughest job we'll ever love, to be sure.

Wow I can really understand how blindsided you felt when your husband had you come in to that session...whoa, I'm really surprised that T jumped into that subject right away without finding out more about your perspective first. Yikes. Is your husband still seeing him?

And yes, I did read the Glass Castle. It was recommended to me by my aunt, who was there when I was growing up and also is a child of alcoholics, like myself. What an incredibly moving story. I am so sorry your husband's childhood was the same...he must have a strong spirit to have survived it. One thing that struck me about that story is how the author was able to tell about some of the "good" things in spite of so much abject neglect and abuse. Her spirit shone so strong in her writing, it was just very inspiring. And at the end, when I found out the parents could have had all that money...and how they chose to live the way they did...it helped me not feel so crazy about how my own parents have chosen to live. I hope your husband continues to recover from his childhood. That is really tough. Was your childhood like that too?

Yes I've been with an attuned individual T for a year now (after a few attempts that didn't work out). She is wonderful, she is exactly who I was looking for for the individual work. But I was finding that just trying to change me wasn't working to improve our marriage, because "it takes two to tango" if you know what I mean. I feel like I'm continually running into my husband's "stuff" and it's like hitting a wall. Which certainly doesn't mean I can't change...but I also want our marriage to improve, and like I said, that takes two.

My husband's never been in therapy but I really think he would benefit from his own. And I don't mean that as he's doing anything "wrong"...in fact I think he would like it because it would build him up. But I realize he'd have to make that decision for himself. In the meantime he says he really enjoys the couples therapy sessions overall. Immediately afterward we agree that we both enjoy a feeling of closeness and intimacy that is unusual...unfortunately it fades rather quickly and despite our attempts we don't seem to be able to generate it "on our own". At least not yet. It was my hope that through the therapy we would learn how to do that. I really believe that having a couples T who knows how to work with attachment with adults and allows it in the therapy would be key. What I am picturing is a therapy where the T really gets to know us and doesn't just dispense the kind of advice I can read about (and probably have) in a book and then send us on our way. I just can't seem to find anyone like that around here. But I will keep looking.

And I totally agree with you that I need to act respectful toward my husband. When I was saying it comes hard, I meant the feeling. It is hard to "feel" respect for someone when they don't feel or require it for themselves. And when my feelings are so much the opposite, it is tough to "act" that way...but I totally agree that I'm responsible to act that way, regardless of how I feel. I don't always succeed.

That is where my faith comes in and I ask for help. Several years ago my husband and I went to a highly recommended Christian-based seminar called "Love and Respect". The premise was that in a marriage, what a woman primarily wants from her husband is unconditional love, while what a man primarily wants from his wife is unconditional respect. We both went with huge misgivings, but it turned out to be fantastic. Also a huge eye-opener for the women, because in our culture, it seems that unconditional love is a given...you don't hear anything about unconditional respect. It sounds outdated but the way he explained it from the guy's perspective, it made a LOT of sense. Anyway it's too long to go into here...I just wanted to say, I left that seminar feeling very chagrined about how I had not been practicing unconditional respect for my husband. It is something I've been trying to work on ever since. [And I just want to add, because they did at the seminar, unconditional respect doesn't mean allowing or ignoring abuse or neglect. Fortunately I don't have to deal with that.]

BB, I don't know how helpful the "codependent" label is. Liese did a really good job explaining it (thanks! ). I think my husband wants me to be the demanding one, and in some ways I am...but I really don't feel "entitled", this role is not a healthy one or one that I like. This is why I want him to develop more of a "self" that I can "bump up against" as you put it. Simply put I just want a healthy marriage where we BOTH have a self, where we BOTH bring ourselves to the table. What I basically meant was the same thing as the "dance" I mentioned earlier. I want us both to have "steps" and a strong posture and I want us to groove, baby. I don't like the dance we are doing right now and I want to change it. However, my husband kind of depends on me dancing the way I always have in order to keep dancing the way he does. If I change it, then he has to change too, if we are going to dance together. Otherwise what happens is we end up dancing each by ourselves...and that's not a marriage. It's two roommates living parallel lives. And it's really, really lonely.

And BB, I also wanted to mention...this time when you described your husband, I realized maybe there are some pretty significant differences in our situations. My husband never turns "cold anger" on me...and he never gets angry at me for having needs...he simply doesn't seem to see them or have the same ones. It's like I'm screaming at him from behind a sound-proof glass window. But I am so sorry you are treated with anger. I am pretty sure I could not handle that. By contrast, I think he perceives "cold anger" from me (*gulp*) when I feel so frustrated at our lack of connection and I just give up.

See...this is where we need the therapy. I don't know how much of all of this great food for thought actually applies to our relationship or how it really applies at all. I can't tell as an insider, I'm way too biased. This is where we need an attuned couples T to help us. Someone who observes us actually interacting, and then points out what they see. What is weird is that's what our couples T did in sessions...but it seems to me that he's missing it somehow. He sees us as an example of a "master couple" and even wants to videotape us interacting so he can show other couples how it's done!!! I don't know why but I just really don't feel like anything I wanted to address, really got addressed. And I feel like a pain in the butt to keep going back and insisting that there's really something wrong. I don't know if he's really missing it or I'm just seeing things wrong. All I know is the homework he had us doing is all backsliding...I kinda knew it would, because none of what I see as the "root problems" really got addressed, so nothing really changed down deep. And I really don't know where to go from here except back to where we started. That feels really discouraging.

Wow this really turned into a book. I thought I was going to make it short but I guess I had a lot more to say. Thanks again both of you

SG

Oh Gosh, Strummergirl ... you are so wise .... you blow me away!!!

I hope I didn't step on anyones toes writing about the codependent thing ... I know BB wanted SG to answer ... I would love to hear your thoughts on it Strummergirl .... It's all so complicated, I find .... It's hard enough to figure myself out .... and then to add my husband to the mix and you have the dance .... I have a hard time seeing it all ... more therapy ... more therapy ....


How did you even know you were going to an attuned T???? I don't know if I would be able to figure that out although I do feel that with my current T, he is going to help me ... it's just going to take a long time ..... My last T pushed me too fast, I see that now ... I wasn't ready .... This one seems very patient ....

And just to give an update ... I called my T to ask him why he didn't call me on Wednesday and he said that he didn't get my letter ... that he would never ignore a request like that .... and now I don't know whether to believe him or not ... but I guess I'll deal with that when I see him ... on Monday ....

I'm so glad that you want to work on your marriage and make it better .... I don't want to work on my marriage right now ... and it makes me kind of sad ... and my husband just kind of accepts it .... My husband was treated as a second class citizen by his father and stepmother .... and I think he is too afraid to be demanding with me, either emotionally or physically ... and that hurts me so much .... because I do love him more than anything ... I just can't give to him right now .... I hate to see him put his needs to the side .... but I guess that will be part of his journey .... and he will have to want to do that ....

That's great that you feel good after your therapy sessions ... I read this amazing book called, The Brain that changes itself ..... The author writes about cutting edge brain research in a very understandable way ... and has a chapter on different conditions, like strokes and psychotherapy ... I wasn't that impressed with the psychotherapy chapter but there was a chapter on a woman who had a condition like vertigo that I found very interesting .... The part of her ear that regulates balance was permanently damaged .... and she always felt like she was spinning and going to fall ... she couldn't walk without holding onto furniture for support .... so a brilliant brain doctor made some kind of contraption for her head (I forget now what it was) and he attached electodes to her tongue ... (I think that's what it was) ... anyway ... since her ear was damaged, he was trying to get messages to her brain through her tongue and hopefully her brain would grow new neurons ..... When she wore the helmet, she didn't feel dizzy ... but then they started to notice that the effects of the helmet started to last for 20 minutes after she took the helmet off .... and eventually the effects lasted longer and longer .... and I don't think she has to wear the helmet anymore .... so I relate that to your therapy sessions ... maybe your brains are growing new neurons and maybe if you continue with the couples T, the effects will last longer and longer .... And so, my point being, that sometimes the changes take time and since you can't see what's happening inside your brain, it's hard to measure progress .... but maybe it's still there ....

I do agree with you that it's odd that he thinks you're the perfect couple when you seem to be carrying so much pain from the relationship ..... Would it be unethical to call him and ask him without your husband's knowledge? I mean, or could you say how you feel in front of your husband .... without hurting his feelings .... ??? Can you say, You think we're the perfect couple? Then why am I so unhappy???? What deep emotional need is not getting met in your marriage???

... my childhood wasn't anything like the Glass Castle .... but to me the odd thing is I turned out much like my husband's baby sister ... I relate to the things she says although she is much more dysfunctional than I am and hasn't been able to form really any meaningful relationships ... she has so much pain (and rightfully so because she was basically rejected from the time she was born by a mother who was just overwhelmed and psychotic and didn't have anything to give) And then the father remarried an absolutely evil woman who waged a custody battle (her 4th marriage and she tried to steal every set of kids from each husband that she could even though she had two of her own .... seriously, she kidnapped her 3rd husbands children .... she was so desperate) The stepmother first had the children reject their own mother because she was mentally ill (which she was, but that doesn't mean you have to break ties) ... and then she had the baby of the family testify against her own dad in court .... and then they all abandoned the baby in arizona for a year when she was 16 and left her in the care of a tenant ... and they don't see anything wrong with any of it !!!!

I don't know how she could overcome it .... very very slowly and I imagine it would take her a long time ... I do encourage her to try to heal but she is in emotional pain constantly .... Very very sad ... Pray for her ....

My parents adopted 2 children because they were having trouble conceiving and then when they went to adopt a third baby, my mother got pregnant with me ... My oldest brother is very dysfunctional and he was my mother's favorite ... so I think I am lucky I wasn't the firstborn Something wacky with the relationship between my mother and brother .... And my Dad, though a doll, had his own pain that I imagine he wasn't dealing with ..... he wasn't very emotionally accessible .... had bouts with depression .... smoked 3 packs of cigarettes every day .... son of an alcoholic .... There wasn't any leadership in my family so my brother took on a leadership role ... and he wasn't always nice! My brother took care of my mother's emotions .... all very interesting stuff .... and I am really glad I wasn't the first born or maybe I would have taken on the role he did ... believe me, she does try with me too ... but I am learning to draw the lines with her and still make her feel loved ..... somehow .... sometimes it's hard to feel love but I do try ....

That seminar sounded interesting ... and I agree that the premise could be very off-putting but I do believe that anything that helps us understand ourselves and our relationships must have value .... The seminar kind of reminds me of these books my husbands other sister gave me called The Five Love languages ... There is one for teens, one for adults ... etc. ... I haven't read it yet but my sisterinlaw tells me it's all in figuring out what makes you feel cared about ... some people feel cared about if people say nice things to them ... so I guess the spouse is supposed to say nice things .... My sisterinlaw said her Love Language is Service and Words of Affirmation ... so she feels good about herself when she does things for other people ... My problem with it and maybe that's why I haven't read it ... it that I sense it ignores your basic emotional needs .... yeah, it's nice that my sisterinlaw realizes that she feels good about herself when she does things for other people but what about her own needs????? Or you know, if someone flatters me, I am going to feel good about myself???? I think I have to learn to feel good about myself even if someone doesn't flatter me (because trust me, they are not lining up at my door to tell me how wonderful I am ..) I guess it's written for your closest relationships ....... But that's what the seminar reminded me of ... I guess men's egos do like respect ... but wouldn't a really healthy ego be able to thrive regardless???? Maybe I'm missing the point ....

I am also interested in your screenname .... are you a drummer by any chance?????

Hi Liese,

No I'm not a drummer, but I wish I was, it looks like fun. I'm a "strummer", meaning I (try to) play guitar. But I haven't even done that for several months now so I guess I'm not that anymore...I just haven't changed my name. I'm just taking a break. Or maybe I'm in denial.

As far as toes being stepped on, my toes are just fine, Liese! I'm sorry if anything in my post made it sound differently. I actually really enjoyed reading your post and thought it made a lot of sense. I also really appreciated it, you saved me a lot of time explaining and did a better job than I would have anyway. So no problems!! Okay?

(and the "wise" thing...60 seconds as a fly on the wall in my home observing me interacting with my husband and kids...that's all it would take to smash that impression...if there's any wisdom in anything I say it's passed on through me from others who've tried to teach me )

quote:

How did you even know you were going to an attuned T????

By attuned I just mean I feel that my current T sees and hears me. I very often felt like my previous T was not seeing or hearing me, but someone else entirely. When I'm with a T who is not attuned, I feel like I'm continually trying to repair the therapy relationship, and it feels like I'm struggling without getting anywhere. When I'm with an attuned T, it feels like most of my energy is going into my therapy. It feels like a good "fit". I hope that helps.

It sounds like you have a previous experience to compare with too...I'm glad your current T is patient with you. And I'm so glad you called your T and asked about the letter. I don't blame you for being a bit skeptical...I hope it gets better in your session on Monday. Good luck...let us know how it goes.

And I really hear you about not wanting to work on your marriage right now. I feel like that a lot of days, too. And my husband would just accept it...forever...and I reached a point where I just couldn't stand it anymore. Not saying you will reach that point, or even should...that is just what happened with me. Either way, though, you are right, I think, they are partly responsible for this relationship and their own happiness in it, too. It is overwhelming to try to take the whole thing on ourselves because we really can't do that anyway.

Thank you for sharing the story about the brain changing itself! It was fascinating.

quote:

so I relate that to your therapy sessions ... maybe your brains are growing new neurons and maybe if you continue with the couples T, the effects will last longer and longer ....

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I was hoping for. It is even what our couples T said in the beginning. The thing is, though...I must be REALLY slow. I think my neurons don't grow as fast as our couples T would like. And his ending sessions early a while back has really damaged the trust that was starting to grow...and I don't think it's coming back. But what you said makes total sense...it is exactly what I want to have happen.

I have expressed my unhappiness in my marriage in MANY ways to my husband, both alone and in front of T's. At first I was very careful and cringing about it...but my husband's apparent lack of response has made me more comfortable talking about it without worrying about hurting him. And that is VERY weird IMO. THAT is one of the things I'd like our T to see. It happened in our last session...our T had to really push my husband to say he felt "hurt" but he just couldn't seem to identify that feeling. Our couples T really seemed to think he "should". I really wish our couples T would pursue that and find out why he doesn't feel that way.

As far as the emotional needs in the marriage, our couples T has given us a lot of advice and suggestions on how to meet each other's needs. Greeting each other, making dates, six-second kisses, weekly meetings, at least 30 minutes scheduled talking time where we focus on active listening...it's a pretty big list of really great ideas. What I see happening is we start out strong, then fizzle. I want to know why we're fizzling. But our T doesn't seem to want to go there. Maybe there's nothing that can be done then. I don't know.

Your poor SIL...yes I will gladly pray for her. What a hard, hard life. But it sounds like you've had your share of pain, too, with neither of your parents being emotionally available. Sounds a lot like mine. I hope you don't discount that, and do whatever you need to do to heal from your own pain.

The message of that seminar was very similar to the love languages. The main idea behind both of them is to build up the relationship, not the person. To have a relationship, we need to perceive that we are seen, heard, and appreciated by the other person. Now usually people will let the other person know they are valued by doing for them what would make THEM feel valued...but the premise here is, there are different "languages" in which we "hear" this. So the idea is to learn how my husband "hears" it and speak to him in his language (and vice versa). The thing is, though, it also has to be genuine. Which rules out flattery, because by definition flattery is not genuine. It really is about moving out of my self-centeredness and trying to meet my husband where he is at, instead of insisting he hear things "my way".

The example you used of Words of Affirmation is a perfect example because that is one both my husband and I share. I like to call it "bragging on each other". There are times when we will be talking to someone else, within earshot of each other, and will tell the person we are talking to about something really great the other recently did (usually a food we cooked - we both like to cook). Now this can be something that we already feel good about, individually speaking. But the act of bragging on each other is like putting money into the bank account of our relationship...almost like a third entity all its own...it is a very genuine way of saying "I appreciate you", "I see you", "you matter to me", etc.

People can have more than one love language (or maybe I should be saying "love and respect" languages). It gets harder when the two people in a couple have different ones. For example, another love language we share is "quality time". But it means different things for each of us, so it might as well be two different love languages. To me, quality time means talking back and forth and especially being listened to with lots of eye contact and laughter...a "face-to-face" encounter. On the other hand, to my husband, quality time means more of a "side-by-side" activity like watching a movie together. It is hard for him to do "face-to-face" because it's not his preference, and it is hard for me to do "side-by-side" because it's not my preference. But if I know that's his love language, then I'll do it anyway, so he gets the feeling of being loved. And hopefully sometimes he'll do the same for me. Again, for the sake of the relationship...money in the bank account.

I hope that helps a little...it is my understanding of it, it's rough but an ongoing lesson...my fingers are starting to cramp up from typing so I'm going to stop for now but I'm really enjoying talking with you!

SG

Hi Strummergirl,

It's nice to talk to you too ...and I should have picked up on the "strum" in "strummer" .... in my old age, my language recall isn't what it used to be ... and it wasn't that good back then!!! I knew it was music related ... I think I need to do some brain fitness exercises!

I played the piano as a kid but took guitar lessons for a month and learned 3 chords ... It's amazing how many Neil Young and John Denver songs you can play with 3 chords .. My 16 year old just started taking guitar lessons and her teacher is bugging me to take lessions too ... I've been dying to learn classical guitar so I might just take him up on it ....!!!

I still applaud you for trying to work on your marriage .... that's terrific! I loved your story about the movie thing ... If it's a non-emotional movie, I am more like you when I watch but if it's emotional, I prefer to not make eye contact ... My husband likes to make eye contact during the emotional scenes and it's too intense for me and my 16 year old daughter ... she has even commented on it ....

Not to worry about those neurons taking too long .... that woman with the inner ear problem grew new neurons in a paragrph but I am sure in real life, it took a lot longer ... I just have to say that I understand your desire for things to happen quickly though ... I've been so frustrated that i've been in therapy for 3 years .... and I've been wanting someone big to happen so i can get fixed and then bolt ... my T has been picking up on this ... and i really think it's my attachment issues coming up .... the fight or flight thing .... so I've been trying to relax and just go for the ride but it is very very hard .....keep running and they will never catch me!!!

I was also laughing about the "braggin on each other" stuff .... I love that you call it that ... My husband used to do that to me ... for instance, we did a lot of work on our house by ourselves and the ideas were mine ... our house was an orphan (my husband was basically an orphan, I'm starting to see a pattern) and was really a disaster when we bought it ... so even with the work we did, it still needed a lot of work and didn't look that nice ... and he would parade people around the house as if it were the taj mahal, and in a loud voice, I'd hear, "I look what liese did here".... and I would shrink with embarrssment ..... I had to ask him to stop because it was causing me so much anxiety .... Thankfully he has!

i have to be honest with you strummergirl, after 3 years of therapy, I still do not have a slight handle on my emotions and what they are ... I think I was so used to stuffing and denying my emotions ...(my one childhood friend said that my family was allergic to emotions) that it took me a long time just to be able to share them with him ... and I'm not even really there yet ... it's very hard .... And he has a secretary that I have to work with to make appointments and i'm finding that that's driving me crazy because I can barely open up to him and sometimes i feel so exposed with her as well .... but I'm working on it .... my T mentioned - I can't remember the context - but that he thinks my troubles go back to early early childhood and are so engrained and that's why it's so hard for me to break the pattern .... As I mentioned, my parents adopted 2 children and so when my mom had me, I was her first pregnancy ... well right before she delivered me, my Dad had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for a month ... and so my grandmother dropped my mom off at the hospital in a cab (in a blizzard) and my mom had me all by herself .... And so, I was born at a time of a lot of stress for my parents ....

we didn't talk about emotions in my family .. in fact, my father used to accuse my of creating issues when I would get upset about things ...he would tell me my tears were fake ... and I would go to the mirror and cry and say ow ... but it really hurts ... oh but they are fake? well, i guess he knows better than me .... so not only can I not name my emotions, I feel guilty for having them and feel as though I will lose love when I have them ... emotions = loss of love .... also, in my family, independence was not encouraged .... independence of thought, independence of action .... my mother is so insecure that she cannot handle people disagreeing with her .... she complains constantly about what other people are doing wrong so I think we all learned to respond to her complaints .... that equaled love .... so i am thinking about your husband here .... and wondering what his family was like .... was his family enmeshed? were they comfortable with emotions?

So I am embarrassed to admit that I have a lot of work to do in the emotional arena .... still after 3 years of therapy ... i can't really name what I'm feeling ... my T asked me a couple of months ago if I felt vulnerable and I didn't answer him ... I didn't answer him because I know what vulnerable means but I don't know how it FEELS ....

I get the sense that a lot of you are in the UK .... are you strummergirl? I am in New York ... but my ancestry is Irish .... I asked my T if he noticed if peoples problems were cultural ... and he smiled and said, yes, the irish have a lot of trouble with their emotions .... maybe in the UK too???? I actually googled the irish and their emotions and found a scholarly article written for therapists who treat people of irish ancestry ... it was sooo interesting ...


Was wondering if I said anything wrong to MH about the sibling rivalry stuff ... I noticed your response was so much more compassionate .... can you tell me about your response? is it about validating emotions?????


Anyway ... have a great day today .... we're off to multiple soccer games today ..... and trick-or-treating tomorrow .... and T on Monday .....

Well, THAT didn't go the way I expected it to. We had our couples appointment last night. We didn't "quit"...although at my husband's suggestion, we did decide to stretch appointments to two weeks, simply because meeting weekly didn't seem to give us enough time to put the principles we'd discussed in session into practice in between appointments (we work opposite shifts a lot of the time). I don't have time to give a lot of details right now but I just wanted to say I'm seriously questioning all the perceptions I described earlier...our T really listened to us yesterday...there were still a few things that "triggered" me but I'm really beginning to believe and be able to see that he (probably) doesn't mean them the way I'm taking them. Or even if he does...maybe it doesn't matter or say anything about me necessarily. So yesterday really mixed things up...in a good way I think.

More later...
SG

Hi Strummergirl ... I guess that's what they mean when they say "working through the transference" .... All sounds good!

Holy schmoly! Talk about confusion..., SG. Good for you for a good session, though. Man, How many times was I there with my T, just, *knowing* that he was totally not for me, completely not getting me, completely judging me, the worst things, just in agony...and the next time, bang, wonderful attuned, caring therapist, not perfect but, definitely close. It's SO weird. What IS that? I guess like Liese says, it's transference confusion. Last time I had a session I asked my T point blank, "Why is it that sometimes you seem SO mean to me, and other times you are the most caring therapist in the world. He explained that sometimes, I am not able to feel or accept his care, for some reason, and then, that other times there just isn't good connection. He said, "sometimes connection is good, and other times it won't be, but you may experience poor connection as meaness from me." That made sense. I will say that it has at last, become clear to me that my T is in this for me, and it is really and truly, about me getting my needs met through him. He cares, and it is enough. But to get to the point of being able to to allow that, and accept it, with all the therapisty stuff thrown in for confusion...was a year-and a half task. Now I can finally open up to my T. I think it just takes longer when there is transference in the room, SG...and it's a huge monetary and time risk, to find it out. I had enough to go on that I was fairly certain a good percentage of the time, that it was coming from me, not him. But it was still a huge risk. I guess, only you can decide whether it's worth it or not. If you decide it is...well, you know how the ride is...interesting..yes, fun...NOT, potential for huge disappointment and pain...eek.
Looking forward to see your post!

BB