Hmmmm....nice thread. I really GET what you guys are saying here. uhhuh.....me too.

LOVE the poem....thanks for sharing it...echo

SD

I can relate to this topic too...but, I can't offer any advice or ideas as I am confused about it too Thanks for posting though...mlc

Hello Strummergirl

Something you said in your post really resonated for me.

quote:

Another aspect of this weirdness is that sometimes, when she asks me a question, she has to go back and remind me that she didn’t mean it as scolding, because I often take it that way.

For example, today she asked if it’s easier for me to grieve or to celebrate. It was just a simple question. It took me a while to respond. Finally, I said I do like to celebrate and gave an example. I was answering her question as if she had been scolding me for not being able to celebrate...but that isn’t what she said at all. So she noticed my defensiveness and called my attention to it (and this isn’t the first time she’s called me on it, but it’s the first time I’ve been able to see what she’s talking about).

If I’m asked something like that I would immediately get defensive and resentful because to me it’s an either/or question with very obviously a ‘right’ and a ‘wrong’ answer. If I were asked if it’s easier for me to grieve or to celebrate I’d immediately know that to say ‘grieve’ is the WRONG answer, because one of the implications of the question is that there’s something pathological about constantly feeling pain and that if we’re healthy we’re ‘supposed’ to also be able to celebrate. On the other hand though if I answered ‘celebrate’ one of the implied criticisms would be that I’m ‘avoiding’ admitting that I have grieving problems. It’s a real no-win question with an agenda behind it and though I’d accept the T might mean it to provoke a deeper understanding of what’s going on in me I’d resent that she already knew the answer before asking it. It’s the either/or nature of the question that would put me on red alert lol.

My T often says things that make me feel defensive and criticized and I tend to immediately pick him up on it by snapping about it - ‘I just felt criticized then’ or ‘that question pisses me off’ and he’s ok with that, so we’re able to talk about how and why I had that reaction - which sets me free from struggling with having to come up with an answer while feeling defensive and resentful, and also gives him the chance to explain better what he meant by his question.

Don’t know if that’s any use to you sorry - I suspect it’s just my prickly set up (I’m the starving snarling cat someone else mentioned in their reply to you) but I did think that maybe you had some justification in feeling ‘scolded’ even if your T didn’t mean it that way.

Hi SG,
My first thought when I read your post was "Now we're cooking!" My second thought was "I forgot how utterly confusing it was."

The more I hear about your new T, the more I like. You've really started doing therapy. Congratulations because I believe you've really pursued healing in the face of a lot of difficulties (I'm almost as stubborn as your T. ) If you don't mind, I'm going to give you a long rambling reply because I saw so much to speak to in your post. I do want to say my usual disclaimer, that so much of what I'm saying is from my own experience and may not necessarily be true for you. Take what you can use (if anything!).

quote:

For some reason I am reacting with irritation at this! Not at her – I’ve never felt irritated with her personally – but at what she’s saying. I want to push her away, brush her off when she says things like this. And she will not stop.

I think there a couple things going on here. One is that when we experience long term neglect or abuse as a child, we usually internalize a sense that we're worthless if not downright repulsive (mine was that I was evil, and replusive and anyone who actually knew me well enough would flee from the horror that I was.). So when something good happens, someone treats us well or compliments us, we check it against our inner truth and it's rejected because it doesn't fit with what we "know" to be the truth. On the other hand, if someone fails us, or says something bad, it's checked against the internal filter and accepted because it fits our "truth." So part of healing is that we need to learn to take in the good stuff and chip away at that filter. I don't think we ever completely get rid of those beliefs, but we get better and better at rejecting them when they come up.

The other part of this is our ambivalance about getting close. When we moved closer as children, we were inevitably hurt. Your mom treating you with "contempt,scorn and irritation" doesn't sound like something you'd really want to move TOWARDS. So when your T treats you well, your healthy, albeit deeply buried, response is healthy one: to move closer. But when you do that, your limbic system experiences it as you moving towards danger. And that's when you'll start coming up with anything to keep yourself away including being irritated at hearing good stuff.

I also know a big part of the dynamic for me was "please don't give me anything to lose." Because of the pattern of abuse, I would hope against hope that each time it would turn out differently and would be about meeting my needs. But it never was. So there was this seemingly good thing dangled in front of me, some semblance of affection and care, but then it turned into something ugly and overwhelming. So when my T provided me with something good, I would get angry because it felt like he was just giving me something to lose, and lose it I would. I also think this was at the heart of what happened with you "Spirit Mom." We have to mistrust good from other people to make ourselves safe and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because someone who is NOT doing those things will eventually be hurt by our ongoing suspicion and pull away, once again confirming that we are worthless and not fit for connection and caring. My Ts ability to withstand all my suspicion and not move has been so incredibly important. Because he understands where it's coming from, he really doesn't take it personally. That along with the disparity I talk about below, is what has allowed me to become aware of my deep distrust of other people, the first step in changing it.

I really believed on some level that the BEST I could hope for was NOT being in pain. So pain must be avoided. So you don't accept good things, because you will lose them and be in pain again.

quote:

For example, today she asked if it’s easier for me to grieve or to celebrate... I was answering her question as if she had been scolding me for not being able to celebrate...but that isn’t what she said at all. So she noticed my defensiveness and called my attention to it (and this isn’t the first time she’s called me on it, but it’s the first time I’ve been able to see what she’s talking about).

This is the part that got me really excited for you. We form a template or schema, for what we expect in relationships from the day we're born. If we have "good enough" parenting, we see ourselves as worthwhile and the universe as a generally benevolent place where we're taken care of. If we don't receive that, we have a much different view. The universe is seen as inimical, something to be defended against, and we need to protect ourselves from other people. You talked about your mother treating you with contempt, and irritation. That's what you've learned to expect from people on a very deep level and you KNOW that you need to protect yourself from it. So you are hypervigilant to pick up on it from other people. So when your T asks you a question innocently to illicit information, it is perceived by you, unconsciously, as an attack or criticism. But here's the healing part of therapy. Because a therapist makes it all about you, they remain non-defensive and accepting of your feelings so you end up experiencing what is know as "disparity." What you are feeling and what you know about your T's behavior don't match up. This is the beginning of being able to see that your feelings aren't always a good reflection of reality. And that opens up the possibility of something different happening. Of seeing something other than contempt and irritation from other people. Of believing that just maybe you deserve something different.

So take heart, I think that you've done the hardest thing. Stayed and been aware of your feelings but even more importantly, said "hey w wait a minute, this doesn't make sense." That creates the space in which you can heal.

quote:

A few times now (like today) as I’m leaving she reaches out and kind of scratches my back a little between my shoulder blades. I kind of like it, but then when she doesn’t do it I wonder why not, like it’s a sign I must have irritated her that time...*sigh* Why does everything have to be a double-edged sword?

Everything is a double-edged sword because when you were a child it WAS. You had to, as a matter of life and death, stay close to the very person wounding you so badly. So you survived (the good part) but you were wounded (the other painful edge). This was consistently you're experience so of course you see things this way. Again, you're trying to protect yourself from pain, so you must always look for where the pain will come from even in things that are "good."

**Hands over HTML slapper** Here's the hard part (you knew that was coming right? ) you need to talk about all this with your T. Both the not wanting the contact and how you feel when you do get it, and when you don't get it. Examining these feelings are how you will understand yourself and why you do what you do in relationships and that will allow you to change the stuff you don't like or think isn't healthy. So talk about the irritation, and feeling accused and both wanting and not wanting contact. I know it's terrifying to the point of not being able to breathe. But you're now safe enough to feel scared.

AG

Wow AG!!! brilliant explanation!! so interesting too!!--gives me much to ponder...Thank You, mlc

Again AG, DITTO! (although this time i had to do a little work on my own... I had to look up the definition for "inimical" to make sure my "ditto-ing" was accurate!) HA!

SG-

quote:

For some reason I am reacting with irritation at this! Not at her – I’ve never felt irritated with her personally – but at what she’s saying. I want to push her away, brush her off when she says things like this. And she will not stop. She’s very consistent.

Why are you talking about MY sessions??? LOL seriously though, I could have written that. I wanna just blow off my t when she says good stuff... and I usually just try to ignore it/ look away/block it out/change the subject/shrug it off!! But at the same time, I don't want her to STOP saying good stuff!!! It's like I want to hear it and hope it's true, but I kinda have this "oh, I've fooled another person into thinking that I'm loveable" attitude about it...

quote:

With her, I’ve got all the care I could ever want...and now that the initial relief has worn off, I’m getting irritated and pushing her care away.

Dah-da-da... Congratulations! You have now entered the realm of therapy- as it should be! I think relief comes from the fact that you don't have to think about the other person all the time, but now, it's about you... yay, right?!?!?! LOL!

quote:

One day she showed me that she keeps bottles of water in the cabinet of the side table. I thought that was pretty funny because the facial tissues were on top of the table. Not only does she take care of her patients when they cry...she even rehydrates them! See what I mean about care?

Watch out, you might have to find a post-session potty!!!!

quote:

A few times now (like today) as I’m leaving she reaches out and kind of scratches my back a little between my shoulder blades. I kind of like it, but then when she doesn’t do it I wonder why not, like it’s a sign I must have irritated her that time...*sigh* Why does everything have to be a double-edged sword?

You know, this dilemna is exactly why my t doesn't give hugs or any form of touch. She says she doesn't want me to view it as a reward system (ie I do "good enough" one day so I get a hug, but don't get a hug another day then I'll think I didn't do "good enough.") It's a bummer for me, but I'm kinda sorta understanding that the just might know what she's talking about!!!

I'm with AG on all this stuff SG, talk to your t!! You are doing such great work and it's nice to be able to watch!! Thanks for posting!!

-CT

Hi SG,

All that you said about your T is so sweet.
I think the fact that your T is female and your former T was male (despite the manner in which therapy with him ended) may also have to do how much caring feelings you we perceive and absorb. That's the case with me anyway.
I think with my T I do get care, but sometimes I may not want to see it in case it was not for me, I also need to figure out if I deserve it and how to deserve it. I think if I had female T I would not doubt her care and "love". It would be there in front of my eyes. My thinking is that men generally don't care, so there you go now...

Thanks everybody…your replies gave me a lot to think about.

Echo...thanks for waxing poetic!...although I hope to get better before I degenerate into "uncontrollable savagery"...how about "controlled churlishness"...or "measured moodiness"...

Monte...Maybe your stray kitty and my wet puppy can keep each other company I do think the message is something we got very early on...I don’t remember ever expecting my mom to treat me any differently...but I have the feeling that if I ever do connect to that expectation, a whole lot of knots will unravel and things will make more sense. Either that, or I’ll disintegrate. I think AG did a really great job explaining the dynamic behind rejecting your T’s hug, and the general idea of pre-emptive rejection. Something bad always comes with something good...so although you’d probably love to get one (like everyone else here) he can keep his rackafrackin’ hug, right? Because you don’t want the pain that’s sure to come with it. I totally get that.

Hi Soulfuldaze and MLC...hope you get some answers too from all the great input on this thread!

Hi Lamplighter – welcome to the forum! Wow, you explained that "right" and "wrong" answer assumption just perfectly. That’s exactly how my thought process went too. That’s cool that you feel safe enough with your T to be so honest about how you feel. My T once told me that it’s okay to express anger at her, if that’s how I feel, but I really can’t imagine her doing something that would make me angry. I mean, she managed to point out that I was getting defensive without making me even more defensive! How much skill does that take? Something about the way she is, the way she speaks to me, makes it relatively easy to hear things that might make me prickly if they were coming from someone else. An image that comes to mind is that we are in a lake of clear water with a muddy bottom, and she can point to things without stirring up the mud.

AG put it really well when she said this:

quote:

Because a therapist makes it all about you, they remain non-defensive and accepting of your feelings so you end up experiencing what is know as "disparity." What you are feeling and what you know about your T's behavior don't match up. This is the beginning of being able to see that your feelings aren't always a good reflection of reality.

AG – Thanks for another incredible explanation, you always bring so much clarity to the experiences shared here! And yes, you are also stubborn like my T, but that’s okay, because it’s the best kind.

How we check messages against the internal filter makes a lot of sense and explains my reactions to others in so many areas, not just in therapy. And I’ve spent a lot of my life isolating specifically because I don’t want anything to lose. Chipping away at this...hmmmm...to be honest, I was hoping for one big detonation. But that probably wouldn't be too pretty.

This especially stung:

quote:

We have to mistrust good from other people to make ourselves safe and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because someone who is NOT doing those things will eventually be hurt by our ongoing suspicion and pull away, once again confirming that we are worthless and not fit for connection and caring.

I don’t even like to think about how many times I’ve done this.

And yes, I will talk about all this with my T. I don’t think the slapper will be necessary.

CT! – Thanks so much for your encouragement! I so get the not wanting the good stuff to stop, combined with the idea "I’ve fooled another person..." And yes, I’m sure there will come a time when having the therapy be all about me won’t be so great anymore...where I will be wanting my T to make it about her for a while and give me a break. Touch...yes I agree it’s simpler when it’s simply not an option. Why, then, is there something in me that believes it will fix everything?

Amazon – There are so many differences between these two T’s that it’s hard to separate them. But you are right, some of the differences in my perceptions is due to one being male and one being female. For me, getting close to a male is a WHOLE lot scarier.

SG