bb,
This topic is a little confusing to me also. I understand projections (and I may have it wrong, so please feel free to correct) to be when we think something about ourselves, we tend to think the other person is thinking that about us, when they aren't. I am not sure if it would still be a projection if they were in fact feeling it too, making it at least partly true or valid. It might become a messy combination of dynamics, as most things do I guess. I think part of our inability to take in that the feeling is coming from our own beliefs and not the other person is part of what causes the projections.

I know I have difficulty with this because I have always, for whatever reason, had very good intuition that I have previously relied heavily on. Since I have been in therapy, it has been difficult to work through what is mine in the way of projections and what is just good intuition. My T tells me that I need to let the intuition serve me and trusting myself is a good thing, but I can really let the inner-critic take me down when I do. So what to do with it....don't know.

Interested in what others think about this.

yeah...it's weird. for example, I've always had the feeling that my h doesn't really love me. It's like an intuition, I don't have a lot to go on- it's just a deeply felt sense that something important is missing in the relationship, something really crucial that can only come from *him* and that I can't make happen. And T has validated that in certain ways, and tries to work on that stuff I guess, with my H. But when I say that I think my H doesn't love me unless I do everything perfectly, which I really feel as well- same concept- he has said that he thinks that is a "projection." so what is the difference, I wonder? How can a person learn when they are "projecting" and when what they think and feel about others responses to them are, in fact, a reflection of reality?

I don't Beebs, the difference for me in the example you gave is that your H might not really love you because he is indifferent to your emotional needs as opposed to that you are not perfect enough, see? The basic premise is correct. It's just the reason for it is different.

Projection and transference are similar except the transference comes from the past. Whereas projection is a feeling you are having that you project onto someone else and in a sense, disown.

hm, that's interesting, and clear. I guess I am wondering how one can tell when we are doing this though. For example- what if my "deeply felt sense" that my h doesn't love me- is actually a projection- and it's really me who doesn't love him and has the "something missing." How would I know that? How can a person know what the truth is about themselves and about others?

That's a good question, Beebs. And a hard one. Sorry things are so tough for you right now.


((((HUGS))))

Liese

Projection is just a term I have always used and T noted that it was a psychological one and he felt I used it in the right way. And that is, I take my feelings and thoughts about myself and project them onto the other person. Kind of like transference, but more about what is going on inside me (my own feelings of shame, self-loathing, etc.) than about T reminding me of another specific person. For example, when T used to say goodbye as "God bless," I would hear it as "I'm done now, go away!" not because anyone had ever used these particular words in that way, but because I felt he disliked me and my neediness the way I dislike it about myself. I was projecting those negative self-evaluations onto him and it was translating into a feeling that he wanted to be rid of me.

That perhaps is more like transference than projection, although the terms are interrelated. No, your feelings are 100% real. They are just, perhaps, not about what you think they are about. When I identify this kind of thing with T, I will say:

"Your [particular words/actions] made me feel [feeling--abandonment, etc.]. You didn't do anything wrong. This feeling isn't ABOUT you, but what you did caused it by connecting it with something else."

Whenever I am having very strong feelings about T, like thinking he hates me, judges me, etc. I try to see where I think it is coming from within me. It doesn't always mean I am able to overcome how "real" it feels, though. But, it has made me able to help him help me. For instance, I was able to tell him that when he words things like, "Can you try to..." it makes me feel manipulated, because my mother has always asked can/will I do things when it is actually an order in disguise and I have no choice. T is not trying to manipulate me. He's trying to ask politely. He is triggering some negative transference onto himself, but those feelings of being manipulated and taken advantage of are not ABOUT him. That doesn't make the feelings untrue. It just means that internally, I'm confused about their source.

great questions BB!

I think others have explained projection, and transference, better than I could.

I think you give a great example of projection. Like, if I hate myself, then I will think everyone else hates me too, no matter what they say, I just can't internalize it or believe it?

and I also think that maybe, following this example, by checking with others, and learning and thinking through what they say they think about us, and dealing with what we think about ourselves, we begin to sort out what is a projection or not, and begin to deal with the sources of our very real and valid feelings... (?)

Like if I don't know I hate me, then it's hard for me to realize I could be projecting my self hate onto other's by thinking other's hate me. So part of healing with it is not only learning that other's don't hate me (which is possible even when I still hate myself) and also learning about and dealing with my own self hate.

quote:

How can a person learn when they are "projecting" and when what they think and feel about others responses to them are, in fact, a reflection of reality?

I think sorting out projections is probably a part of the process of sorting out what is our "stuff," and what is other's "stuff" and in the long run, I think that takes time, talking, and learning what our stuff is, and working on boundaries? maybe? I'm not sure. These are some of the pieces of the puzzle of sorting them out for myself.

One way I work on sorting out if something is true or not about someone else, to know if it is a projection or reality or not, is to ask, to talk about it and check. Like, sometimes I think I am too messed up, and when I do, I usually also think my T thinks I am too messed up. So I ask. And she tells me. Using your example, when you feel like your T hates you, I'd ask. Then he can tell you if he hates you or not. Trusting his answer is another step. And sometimes, it's also not even trust, but sort of giving the other person responsibility to tell you the answer, and if they don't, then still leaving it up to them... hmm... how do I explain that? Like if my T thought I was too messed up, and I asked, and she didn't tell me the truth, then that's really her stuff, not mine... which is getting into more than just projections...

and now I'm not making any sense...

sigh. I'll just leave it there. (well, until PAD gets the better of me and I edit or delete this jumbled up response.)

~ jane

Hey Beebs, this subject is timely for me, since I'm specifically tackling "projection" with consult T on Friday. Obviously, I am far from expert since it seems to be so difficult for me to recognize and stop doing it! But I wanted to post anyway to thank you and all the others who have added something to this discussion. I plan on bringing these insightful comments into session with me.

I was always told that projections are the feelings we have in us, that we 'project' onto someone else.

Lots to think about in all your responses. I'm getting a clearer picture. I'm thinking that what I always thought was my intuition, is probably projections. But- of course I'm not sure- otherwise I wouldn't be asking this question, would I?

quote:

One way I work on sorting out if something is true or not about someone else, to know if it is a projection or reality or not, is to ask, to talk about it and check. Like, sometimes I think I am too messed up, and when I do, I usually also think my T thinks I am too messed up. So I ask. And she tells me. Using your example, when you feel like your T hates you, I'd ask. Then he can tell you if he hates you or not.

Excellent advice, JD- yes- like Ag says, you have to ask. problem is, I know he will say no, of course not, I have never hated you- and I also know I won't believe him when he says that. Crazy- I know my T is not a liar- but I'm starting to realize that I just assume immediately, that anything positive comes out of his mouth is untrue, and anything that can be taken even slightly in the negative, becomes a roaring judgement. Weirdly, this does *not* happen with my SD. Never. I feel totally accepted and liked by SD, all the time. He makes me feel like I'm a good person. I even come away from him daring to believe and recognize that there is good in me. For a little while, until next time I screw up. So all I'm left with there, with him- is my own self-judgement, and suspicion, which is much easier to route, or at least ignore. Because SD leaves *no doubt* in what he says. There is no skirting the issue. He likes me, and thinks I'm good. Period. there is never a "yes, buuuut- that is not the real issue..." Well, yes, T- for me it is. It *is* the real issue.

Confusing. sometimes I wonder- if deep down, my T just *really doesn't* like me or think there is much good in me- and maybe that is what I'm picking up on. And if that' is true, than, of course I would be having all these problems. Of course he would never say that- even if it were true, because he surely knows by now that such knowledge would destroy me.

Well, I spent most of my session today discussing projection again. I brought this thread with me and read some of the insightful comments to T. She asked me to define intuition. I had a hard time coming up with a definition that couldn't also be interpreted as projection. T said she doesn't think she believes in intuition. She wants me to explore that idea more this week.

I said to my T, "What if I had a particular suspicion about a person, but I talked myself into buring my intuition/projection/fears (whatever you wanna call them) because I wanted to give the person the benefit of the doubt and not jump to conclusions. And what if my suspicions then turned out to be right after all? Wouldn't I have been stupid to ignore the warning bells in my head?" She was like, "So what?" And in my head I was like, "That would be the end of the world, don't you see???" ...but I didn't say it because it didn't sound logical. That's just how it feels for some reason.

Hmmm. I wonder what she meant by "so what?" Did she mean "well, after you suffered for awhile, then you would pick yourself up, dust yourself off and move on..." or did she mean to invalidate your fear somehow? I'm just asking because it sounds like something my T would say, only I know how he would mean it- his whole thing is, it's not wrong to suffer a little bit. I don't think he is aware, however, of the level of suffering it would entail to lose a T because of not listening to what we thought were "just projections." It would be so deeply self-invalidating and hard to heal from on so many different levels, because of the tendency in such a situation to absolutely *need* to take the blame in order to protect the integrity of what was validating and affirming in the relationship. And I don't think they realize how very important it *really is* that they simply like us and believe in us, and view us in a positive light- from their hearts.

Hmmmm. I am really surprised T said she doesn't believe in intuition. Did she mean "so what" as in it isn't important if you look or feel stupid ingnoring your intuition or warning bells or "so what" as in just because what you happened to be projecting AND what the other person happened to be feeling coincidentally match up, it isn't intuition? Learning to trust ourselves is so important and we do that by checking things out along the way, but don't we have to also rely on some of our own intuition once we can trust ourselves more? Is she saying that we always need to check things out because whatever feeling/intuition we have about something is not really intuition, and always a projection? Confused.
MH, Interested in your thoughts about this after you explore it this week. I am really wondering about it.

I'm trying to think how T put it. Say, for example, that I thought someone secretly hated me. Maybe it was something in their mannerisms or behavior that I interpreted to mean they were brushing me off or being stuck up. But what if I say to myself, "Self, don't be so hasty to assume this person hates you. It's probably all projection, so just let it go." And then what if the relationship continues for awhile... until one day it unexpectedly comes out from the other person that Yes, indeedy they absolutely cannot Stand me and never could all along! Me, myself, am thinking that would be Horror of Horrors, that I didn't protect myself from that moment ahead of time somehow by trusting my suspicions. But my T was like, "So what if you find out that person hates you? That discovery is all about them, not about you. It doesn't (or shouldn't) change who you are to yourself." She also said that EVERYTHING I think she thinks about me is always wrong anyway.

Hmmmm. Cross-posted with you BB

Hmmmm...

quote:

Me, myself, am thinking that would be Horror of Horrors, that I didn't protect myself from that moment ahead of time somehow by trusting my suspicions. But my T was like, "So what if you find out that person hates you? That discovery is all about them, not about you. It doesn't (or shouldn't) change who you are to yourself."

She's right...but it's easier said than done. I mean- that is some serious vulnerability going on. I've actually *had* that happen to me- and let me tell- when we are where we are- it *really* bites!

I mean sure- we *should* have enough self-worth to just let it go- but if we did, we wouldn't be in therapy, now, would we?

I am totally where you're at, BB. It's a tall order for most of us.

Seablue, I argued with T that I thought intuition was like a sixth sense where we apply gut feelings that are derived from lessons we've learned along the way in life. She didn't particularly like that definition. The most she would acknowledge is that perhaps the "gut feeling" could be a signal that it may be important to gather more information, but beyond that it is premature, and in her eyes, projection.

Well obviously it is about them.....but it just seems like good sense to me that we use what we can in a reasonable way to protect ourselves from that kind of vulnerability. Taking someone at face value is important, but to invest time and energy into something we don't have a good feeling about and then to find out we were right......I am not sure that the healthy road would be investing in it anyway and most people I think would choose to do things differently next time. I know suffering won't kill us and even helps us grow, but even only considering the damage to the psyche in accepting the experience of that scenario repeatedly, it doesn't seem like the best idea.

Yeah, seablue, I think I agree. It feels to me like my T is asking me to give up defenses that serve a useful, protective, even wise, purpose. Why suffer needlessly?

BB - You have said that emails you've written your T could be changed a bit and be written to your H or parents. I'm wondering if that (transference) is what is responsible for you projecting with him so much more than with SD. For example, I am almost as open with my pastor as I am with my T, but my T has this whole channeling fatherly energy thing going on and so there is so much more "gravity" in my relationship with him. So, not only do I project more often, but they are so strong. The way I have been dealing with it is to tell him whenever something he does or says makes me feel upset. T has proven that he is a safe guy for me to be hurt/mad/upset with. He has proven that it isn't going to make him leave me. He isn't going to kick me out of his office like my mom would kick me out of the house. He isn't going to disappear and abandon me like my dad did. He isn't going to yell at me and berate me and tell me how I feel is bad or wrong. I don't have to pretend I don't exist or live up to his expectations for him to accept me. In fact, he seems more engaged and connected, the more vulnerable and honest about my fears I am. I am amazed I have managed to do this with him in only 7 months. Literally, I consider it miraculous. He is a very good T, I suppose, but he will give the credit to God. However (I will give myself a tiny bit of credit here), if I had not taken some tiny steps of faith (we cannot call them leaps), he wouldn't have had the chance to "prove" I could trust him with my true feelings. That is how I am trying to conquer my projections. He doesn't always outright correct/normalize/whatever you call it (sometimes he does), but just admitting how I feel sometimes takes the power out of it. That is my experience. I don't know if it would be helpful to anyone else. -Yaku