Hi Jill,
It's pretty obvious that you are feeling hurt about something and feel like you broken some unseen rules and are frustrated by not knowing them. If you're comfortable talking about it, can you be more specific about the situation you're upset about. It's difficult to know how to respond without knowing what you're feeling like you did wrong. I'm sorry you're feeling this way and even more sorry if I contributed to making you feel this way. I would want the forum to be a safe place for people to be. I respect your willingness to talk about this openly.

AG

Jill,
We haven't met, so want to first say hello and welcome. I know you have been here a little while, but you started posting during a 'break.' for me.

I am sorry you are feeling hurt about posting/not posting and feeling uncertain where the boundaries are.

I certainly don't have the answers, but I can tell you that you're not alone. I, too can get really worked up with fear of offending people here by saying the wrong thing, being too selfish or needy in my posts, not having anything helpful to say especially when other people are so helpful to me. I can get pretty down on myself about it. I don't know to what degree, but I am almost certain others here share that fear??


The one thing I know for sure is that people here really truly care and have a real desire to help each other. I can't count the number of times I have been brought to tears by reading the heartfelt posts here.

I also know that there are many reasons someone may or may not respond to a certain post - mood, triggering content, ability/inability to relate, and so many more. It is easy to take things personally and it is likely not intended to be personal.

I hope you can find a way to feel more comfortable and find the support you are needing.

Just wanted you to know you aren't alone.

quote:

I certainly don't have the answers, but I can tell you that you're not alone. I, too can get really worked up with fear of offending people here by saying the wrong thing, being too selfish or needy in my posts, not having anything helpful to say especially when other people are so helpful to me. I can get pretty down on myself about it. I don't know to what degree, but I am almost certain others here share that fear??

Seablue,
Just wanted you to know that I could have written the above. I find it much easier to respond to other people sometimes also, and not post about my own stuff which I think can give a false impression of having it too together, when actually I can be a huge mass of twitching insecurity and neediness. So you're definitely not alone in struggling with feeling that way.

quote:

I also know that there are many reasons someone may or may not respond to a certain post - mood, triggering content, ability/inability to relate, and so many more. It is easy to take things personally and it is likely not intended to be personal.

I also wanted to say how much I agreed with this. I know my posting can get really erratic depending on what's going on in my life. Sometimes I don't have the energy to respond, sometimes I can get so triggered I don't feel like I can respond and sometimes I feel like what I would have said has already been said. The other big one for me, that I know other people have mentioned, is that my family can get upset with too much computer time on my part. I do know one thing though, my lack of posting is about me, not about the other person.

AG

Jill ~

Thanks for asking - this is a very good question. I'm a little but passionate about this. Frankly, I hate unpoken rules. So please please take my response with a grain, no, a lot of salt. It can be potentially dangerous or hurtful for any of us to expect others to just "automatically know" awhat the boundaries or rules are, so I'm really glad you asked this if it was on your mind.

From my very passionate and biased perspective, I think if rules/boundaries are 'unoffical' and not spoken outloud (so to speak) then they are not rules/boundaries at all.

If there is something that someone here on the forum doesn't feel ok about, then we gotta say that - gently but clearly, so it can be worked out.

Yeah, I too get nervous about offending people - but with the freedom to post comes the freedom to unintentionally stay stupid stuff. (of which I have probably said a lot.) We are all people working on our stuff... and sometimes we may unintentionally step on each other's toes.

As far as if there are unoffical and/or unspoken forum wide rules - I'm not sure there are any. If there are, then we need to speak them. For my sake just as much as anyone else!

I don't think there are really rules about posting. I have read where people will sometimes hold back from reading when they are in a tough place so that they don't get triggered. That sucks. Yet, I hope this is a place where we can keep the freedom to write the things we need to say and process - while also having respect for each other. I think there are boundaries that we all have, and we all have a responsibility to speak them for ourselves - but as far as forum wide boundaries... I dunno...

I just hope there are no forum wide unoffical or unspoken rules and I really hope that everyone here takes the freedom (and responsibility?) to speak the personal boundaries they need for themselves.

oh, I'm just rambling in circles. What do you think Jill? are there things you feel are rules or boundaries that are not clear?

Good question and issue to bring out into the open. thanks jill.

oh I started writing my response and then others posted before I did, and my response is a bit out of sync. they have great words - much better than mine.

I have a question about rules/guidelines of posting too:

I’ll just say it- it seems like no one talks about sex on here. Is that just not a part of people’s therapies? Or do people think it’s too personal? Would it not be appropriate if I said something about talking about sex in therapy? It seems like I say the word “sex” about a hundred times a session…. Sex/relationships are just a big part of my therapy… So it seems like if I have a question regarding something that my T and I talked about in therapy the word sex would be thrown around in there. Is that okay, or should I just find a way around the actually word “sex” and phrase it differently?

Thanks, Maclove

ooo, Jill, good on you for starting this thread...I think it sounds like we can all relate to the idea of unwritten rules, and how confusing they can be...

I'm, looking forward to seeing more of this thread, and contributing some thoughts to it!

BB

quote:

Originally posted by janedoe:
oh I started writing my response and then others posted before I did, and my response is a bit out of sync. they have great words - much better than mine.

JD, Don't discount yourself! I love what you said about it being everyone's right and responsibility to speak the boundaries appropriate for themselves.

I know that many of us are in therapy to learn to do that very thing more effectively, so of course not all of us are great at it, but what a great place to practice.

I think it is important that we allow (and even expect) each other to make mistakes because we are all practicing, and it creates more opportunity for repairing?? Not sure that is relevant, but on my mind

MacLove ~ just did a search on the word "sex" on the forum and actually, people have posted about it and actually used the word. If it's about you and figuring out your stuff in therapy - I think it's ok, i.e. there's forum wide ban on using the word. Some may not join in the conversation, some might - but that's kinda how it is for all kinds of subjects here. Just my two cents.

Thanks, Janedoe.

I haven’t had time to read through all the posts since I’m new, so that’s why I figured I’d just ask. I did see some “sex talk” on the spouses and therapy discussion, but since I have never had a spouse I felt kind of out of the loop on that one (I’m only 19). But anyway, thanks!

i am here, and listening, too afraid to really speak out and don't care to point fingers, but think i sense others feel this way too.

one, i can talk about sex, macLove...i noticed that topic being 'not discussable', too.

two, i grew up in a marshmallow world...no rules, no boundaries, can go from 1 to 100 without it registering as change, blank faces, no impact...so, i am used to pushing to find a wall, so i am a bit unplugged on that, and so the points you said,janedoe,about boundaries are really an issue i need to address as i guess i push too hard to be accepted...or heard or noticed and don't respond well to feeling ignored, and take it personally when perhaps it is not personal. thanks for this point and your post.

BB, i know you have good things to add, so thanks for your comfort in being here!!

AG, thanks for getting the ball rolling... specifics?? nothing i feel comfy speaking right now, just a general sense of being on the list of 'bothersome posters'...hungry, needy, ignored. definitely old stuff trying to apply to present day stuff, when alot is just old tapes that don't fit the new, so that is a big learning issue i need to address..."assuming everyone now hates me as they all know how broken down, needy, sick, and stupid and selfish i am". perhaps, like you said, the 'well' part is speaking at times and people think i/you have it all together and are here to 'teach' (you, not me) and then you adopt that helper role and have no place to go for your pain. hugs to you, you've probably always been the glue that keeps people together. i used to be for my family of origin until all the boxes i had packed up, airtight in my 'attic' (head) finally broke the ceiling through to the basement and i have been in recovery mode ever since. i WAS the only one in my family NOT on the 'insanity' mode, til i caved as well. so, being 'the strong one' is a tough role. maybe i am overprojecting onto you, forgive me if i am. you just seem to be so strong in being the first to reply and in what you write that i sensed that. thank you.

seablue, love the serenity in your name and picture, first of all. and yes, down on myself is a tag i grab alot, too. thanks for pointing it out...and letting me know i am not alone on this, i too see how heartfelt most are on here, and it is beautiful, and something i don't want to have to run away from. love/addiction/hate...my circle.

even now, i get so mixed up in my head as to who said what (i can't follow the plot in a thirty minute 'sit-com') so, some of my not replying to everyone directly, like y'all are so adept at doing, keeps me from forming real relationships, so i will work on that, too. i just get dizzy in more than one on one...

thanks for the help, and i hope it helps others to have a place to put these questions.

dragonfly, you responded while i was posting so i just now got your thoughtful reply, and our issue was so helpful to me, so i can only thank you for your bravery in speaking up. that is old news, for me, and i think our pm's have validated our genuine sincerity towards one another. and the thank you's and acknowledgements are so important, i marvel at how y'all are all so good about that and i am learning from your cues in all of your posts. a lesson for real life, too, so, df, i am feeling better already. i was really circling the drain (still am most days) so i appreciate your post and feel my addiction for you all just growing and growing. gotta keep some balance though. thanks, df

quote:

Originally posted by dragonfly:

maclove i would love to talk about sex and giving birth!!!! i've got tones to say but felt that no one else would want to go there!!!!
so if you are up for it, so am i !!!!!!

dragonfly

You're so funny! Good to know!

quote:

Originally posted by MacLove:
I’ll just say it- it seems like no one talks about sex on here. Is that just not a part of people’s therapies? Or do people think it’s too personal? Would it not be appropriate if I said something about talking about sex in therapy?

I think this is probably something that everyone here has a personal opinion and comfort-level about. Personally, I am comfortable talking about sex in a therapy context, here. It might come down to, in an effort not to offend anyone, the need to post a content warning when posting about it.

quote:

Originally posted by seablue:

It might come down to, in an effort not to offend anyone, the need to post a content warning when posting about it.

Yepp, I totally get that it would be a trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by jill:
one, i can talk about sex, macLove...i noticed that topic being 'not discussable', too.

two, i grew up in a marshmallow world...no rules, no boundaries, can go from 1 to 100 without it registering as change, blank faces, no impact...so, i am used to pushing to find a wall,

I think I understand what you said in the second part... learning boundaries with people is a major part of my therapy. like I’m just learning that maybe it's not normal to ask people if they want to have sex right after meeting them??? (lol). I'm sure that’s not exactly what you meant by "no rules, no boundaries" but that’s what came out of having no rules or boundaries in life for me.

Sorry I'm getting so off topic.

Jill,
I appreciate what you said about me being the helper, but to be really honest, I think for me that when I do that (sometimes, because I've definitely come here for support and gotten tons of it) it's about the fact that I feel so much less vulnerable when extending help than when I asking for it. Making a need known is really threatening because maybe no one will respond. So I think sometimes for me, not posting is a defensive measure. So I don't so much see it as something imposed on me, as something that I can choose to do.

And as far as being hated for being needy or a mess, I certainly understand the fear because I think it's a place that most, if not all, of us go to way too easily. But that's the reason that we're here, to help each other through those feelings. Which is why, although its difficult, there needs to be a certain amount of grace always extended if people aren't there for you because everyone is dealing with a lot and have to draw their boundaries at different places at different times depending on their current circumstances.

But that's what makes what you're doing such a good thing, because the only way we can know it's not really something about us is to ask.

And Maclove, I've never felt sex was a never to be talked about topic, I've definitely discussed some sexual feelings for my therapist. But I very much agree with what Seablue and Dragonfly said, it's a strong trigger subject and/or comfort level. I see nothing wrong in talking about sex, especially if it's an important issue in therapy, but I'm not particularly comfortable talking about the subject. I will discuss it when absolutely necessary with my therapist but beyond that not so much. But that's my problem, not someone else's. I actually feel a bit envious of people who find it easy to discuss.

AG

hey - just wanted to say this is a cool conversation. I love the idea of a trigger warning.

I know that I appreciate it when a topic about self injury is titled that or says it soon in the topic so that I know to make sure I'm in an ok enough place myself before I keep on reading... And I know that I also don't want anyone to hold back on difficult subjects they are struggling with in therapy and as they work on their stuff.

I once posted something where I intentionally held off on details of abuse for me, because just writing such details is hard for me, and because I was able to easily talk about things in therapy and healing that I was struggling with without getting into details of the abuse - but also because I don't want to trigger others. It really got me thinking about how to handle that.

I don't really feel bothered when others speak of specifics of abuse or triggering subjects. I do see it as my responsibility to filter or try to avoid that stuff when I'm in a rough spot. I also find it helpful when I know what a post is about quickly... yet, I'm terrible at being clear about what my own posts are about. So often, I'm just processing stuff...

If I was to post about speifics of a traumatic event that I don't want to trigger others - would it be helpful to maybe say trigger warning in the title or the first line of the post? like just the first line of the post could say "hey, this contains details of abuse"

and if saying something like that would help for that - what if we did it about other things we are concerned might trigger others?

I think we each can make that decision for ourselves about our posts and ultimately we also have to take responsibility for what we read and don't. (We can't predict nor protect everyone from potentially triggering subjects - my "triggers" are sopme really mundane things, while some of the "more common" potential triggers don't phase me)

BUT, if we are concerned that our post would contain something that might be triggering for others - like maybe we could like say trigger warning - this post contains a lot of details abuse or sex or self injury or... ? not as a rule, but as a said OUT LOUD thing of like hey this is helpful thing to do?

or...?

just a thought. I'm mostly just thinking as I type. I might not think this would be a good idea tomorrow... but what do you all think?

I am hesitant to post this response because frankly, this is a subject that is close to my heart and something I am a little fired up about. But I think I am going to post anyhow... (take this response with a grain, no a lot of salt.)

I grew up in a family where there were so many unspoken boundaries and such unpredictability that it was awful and yet seemed like the norm. It was also very dangerous for me to ever have boundaries, let alone stick up for them. It was hard to ask for anything I needed, just the asking was a source of punishment and pain. In my family, I was very clearly labeled (still am) as “the sick one, too needy, ecterta.” I go around thinking that of myself, and yet I don’t see you or anyone else on the forum that way at all.

I have seen the healing power of community, and relationships, and I think that especially when we grow up in really difficult circumstances that community really helps the healing process... I think a forum like this is really great because there are things we can do for each other and learn from each other that help therapy and the healing process. Sometimes hearing things from others who are not Ts, can help me hear my T better. There are ways we can speak to and relate to each other’s experiences that T’s can’t exactly relate to, just because they are T’s. Sometimes it’s good to be anonymous and read a variety of perspectives. We all together can help meet different needs and have different input and insight and perspectives that no one person alone can do. And with a community, it allows for needs to be met and conversations to continue even when sometimes some people are too busy or struggling too much at the time to respond or post. Online and offline, I think community can really help healing... I’ve also seen the harm that can be done by community too. Ugh, it can be awful.

I guess that is why this kinda is something I am passionate about. It’s actually something that I’m likereally passionate about - so much, that I fear I will put my foot in my mouth too much. (perhaps doing that here)

I don’t want us, myself, as a community, to ever do things that ever labels someone as too needy or sick or ecterta. (Even when I am going around labeling myself that in my own head!) I don’t ever want there to be unspoken rules and if there are any, OR there are things that people want more of, or want to be different that would be helpful to them - I want people to feel like they can say them and ask for it... It’s the only way I can know and we can know...

And I am a mess. I really think I am like seriously a mess beyond repair. At times I push too hard to be accepted myself and at times I pull back. For me, it’s really tough in relationships - online or off online.



Jill ~ I can really relate with what you are saying

quote:

“specifics?? nothing i feel comfy speaking right now, just a general sense of being on the list of 'bothersome posters'...hungry, needy, ignored.”

I’m so sorry you feel this way. (((()))) It’s an awful feeling that I too have felt at times. I have posted things here, and then thought that “whoa, I am just really way too much.” You also mentioned that the
"old tapes" are playing... yeah, I think mine are spinning 24-7 and I can’t find any “off” switch!

"assuming everyone now hates me as they all know how broken down, needy, sick, and stupid and selfish i am".

I just want to say OUT LOUD (or type rather) that I don’t see you being any more needy than myself or anyone else. I don’t see you as broken down, needy, sick, stupid or selfish. I think you are amazing, beautifully real, courageous and strong. I don’t see you as being any more needy than myself or anyone else here. I really admire you and the work you are doing.

Sometimes I don’t reply to various posts by various people because I’m busy or sometimes I just don’t have a clue what to say or I think “ugh, I’ll just say something really stupid and hurtful” or sometimes I have the same questions or problem or… but never have I thought of you nor anyone else here that “whoa, you are too screwed up.”

Jill, I can think of several posts that you have written that have really moved me and made me think and helped me feel better. I didn’t say it because sometimes it’s close to home or I’m struggling to find words or just processing, or it didn't hit me until later...

For myself, I want to say that if I go over the line, I hope others will tell me. If I ever offend you (not saying I am assuming I have) I hope you let me know.

I don’t think I trust that people will, but I want to hope that people will care enough to say hey, JD that hurt or something.

I want to not do the thinking for others and I want to say that if I screw up or offend people (which I may be doing by this very post alone) that I hope others will care enough to tell me. I want to also not do the thinking for others in thinking that everyone thinks I suck beyond all reason. But I do think that. All the time.

oh, I have another thought about this subject... but I am thinking through it - and maybe will post it as another thread as to not hijack this one or get off topic too much... I think this is a great conversation.

ugh. I really am sorry if any of this is totally off to say or just wrong. (...except for saying that you basically rock Jill. All of that, how awesome you are, I am not sorry for saying that at all. Because that is something I am very sure of.)

- jd

JD, love your thoughts above, nothing off there to me at all.

J

Dammit that was a huge long post and all but one line disappeared.

ag, i hope i wasn't assumptive with you, i do know the helper role is easier for me, as i, too, except lately i have nothing left to give, i am all used up!! i would keep my own personal needs, thus risk at bay, even denying it to myself, as i have until my crash a year ago. and when one is so steady at helping, it FEELS good, good recognition, everyone THOUGHT i had it together, i was the GLUE in our psycho family. and now, being broken, i don't know, it is much harder to need, than to give. probably for most of us. i hope you get your needs met here, too, y'no?? i am new so forgive my misplaced projection, if it is. you are a kind person.

jd, did i just switch computers and write every word you said?? or are you me, separated at birth (lucky you!) idk, you wrote everything i feel, and not that misery loves company, but, i guess, company normalizes misery...if that makes sense.

idk, probably am overstepping some unstated rule...WARNING!! EMOTIONAL RANTING GOING ON!! DON'T READ IF YOU ARE TRIGGERED BY DESPERATION OF EVER GETTING BETTER!!

i must say, i feel beyond repair. soooooooooooooooooooo out of touch with reality, i have NEVER understood people, what they are talking about half the time, i IMPULSIVELY am on the other side of reality, and always bracing for more emotional hurt. in fact, often times beating another to the punch of hurting me...i just go ahead and fast forward to the end and get in the down position i live daily.

push me back, people....am i being wrong in saying these things, no need to comfort me, but do tell me if one can't let it out sometimes?? i welcome y'all to do that, it helps to be heard. even if no one reads, to get it out?? is that ok? idk, i REALLY dk. never have, doubt i ever will!! c'mon, do i have brocolli on my teeth and y'all just aren't telling me?? can i be real here?? if not, just tell me!

i know i am probably split or whatever they call that, don't know if we will ever merge, or if one will just slowly slough off, idk. do y'all ever feel just miserable and not know what to do with it!!?? what do you do with it??
man, i should erase this whole post, but i guess i'd rather deal with truth than the lies i have structured my whole entire life around trying to be a good girl, take it in stride, y'no? have i reached the 'wall' yet in this marshmallow? where does it end? does anyone know what i am talking about?? ok, i will work to help others, but really friends, i feel i have NOTHING to offer, so i may appear really selfish, i try to post help, but i don't know, and then i do post something and it is stupid, not useful, i just do it to try to not just take advise, but clearly, i am in NO position to help, but i will try if i can add anything useful. i used to have it together....really clicked for many years....unreal the state i now find myself in.

jill - i only have a moment before I have to run

but is "ranting" ok? venting? expressing what you are feeling inside ok? YES! I think it is! It's a part of working on our stuff. I've done it and will likely do it again! no one has objected...

I think what you wrote is really good. It doesn't seme like just "ranting" to me. I think you have some great things to say and things you are working through - and things that probably a lot of others are working through too that you are giving voice too.

I want it to be safe here to feel and be real with where you are at.

Here, I think it's ok. very ok. I think a lot of people here do it in various ways.

It wasn't safe for me growing up to do such a thing. Now, here - yeah, I think it is very OK and I AM GOING TO SAY (type) THAT OUT LOUD (because there have been too many times such things have been silenced when some of us were kids) Time to talk and be real.

I hope you don't delete your post... it helps me feel a lot less alone.


and I'm so sorry you feel so discouraged about getting better... yeah, that sucks... been there... I think I live there sometimes...

hang in there.

ok now I gotta go - sorry for the quickly written post. just wanted to say that before you might delete yours (and it's ok if you do, just hope you don't delete it bc you feel like you need to for anyone else.)

janedoe, thanks, no, i am trying to be real and live in the truth these days, so i'm out there. you are a kind lady, and thank you for your response. yes, i lived in a similar house, i was a burden, ridiculed...all in good humor, har har! i was in trouble for things that only now make sense, as i see now, it wasn't what i did, it was that my parents were emotionally ignorant, and found power in belittling my sister and me. really sick people, anyway, another rant, but yes, i know, when you grow up with illogical madness, the walls feel spongey at best. it helps to hear another understand that. and to put it into words that i couldn't quite get out. thanks, i guess real is good?? i will try always to be kind, though. and when i can i will help, i read everyone's stuff, but feel all thumbs with advise. hugs seem, well, kinda silly, but (((alll)))!! jill

Hi Jill, my post that disappeared said a big thank you to you for starting this thread, it's really cool to see people's thoughts on this. And great to be able to check in with each other about the communication here.

I can't see any broccoli on your teeth and wouldn't be worried if I could - I am a friend to broccoli, it is one of my noble qualities. I think the thing is that people will always react differently and individually to different things, that's all we can do. So I'm okay with you 'letting it out' whenever you want, though I'll only feel like I have something useful to offer back some of those times. Something might trigger me in some post, or it might just not be something I have something to say on, and those things will be different for each person. Ultimately at some point all you can do is be guided by what you feel and need and put it out there.

Trying to be conscious of and kind to others is helpful but it's not an exact science because it's very hard to be sure what others are feeling or might react to. I like JD's discussion of trigger warnings above. I tend to think if we are discussing specific incidents/memories of painful events in detail these are worth putting a trigger warning on. I know I have done this before WITHOUT a warning and regretted it later** (see below). It's a tricky thing though, because as I've found myself, it can be hard sometimes even to identify something as painful, even if it obviously is to other people. We all need the grace and lenience and good communication of others about this stuff, as someone (AG?) notes above.

The other thing I would say about that - not so much an unwritten rule but something I try to do myself, is just to be conscious of what has been written above in a thread. If I really just need feedback on or a space to vent about *my problem* I start a new thread. If I post on a thread that's already going, I try (imperfectly) to stay a little bit aware of what is going on there and connect to it somehow. So if someone is expressing a lot of pain in a thread or really trying to work something out there, I probably wouldn't jump in with my own pain and story without acknowledging theirs. Again this is not an exact science. If a topic has been quiet for a long time and it is roughly about that thing that I want to write about, I wouldn't necessarily feel the need to connect/acknowledge in the same way. But I think it often does help, because it puts me in the mode of listening as well as talking and it shows people they are heard, and we all want that. It helps it become a conversation instead of a bunch of people talking.

In any event I don't want to propose these kinds of things as 'rules'. There are heaps of really really valuable posts that don't do what I just described. We come into this place often when we are most needy, and with all kinds of 'stuff' in our heads and on our shoulders. Mostly I just want people to feel free to post as they need to without worrying about it too much. That's what I want for myself.

I too struggle with acknowledging/thanking. When I'm overwhelmed it's sometimes a triggery thing for me. I get scared I'll miss someone out or favour someone or hurt someone or I just don't have the right words for response when I am really processing stuff. But I feel really moved and grateful when people have taken the time to respond so sometimes in that situation I just explain that and do a general thank-you, rather than a specific one.

In terms of helping people, I suspect that often what people want is not so much help but just to be heard. Sometimes the little notes saying "That sounds awful, I can see you're hurting" or whatever are just really moving and special in themselves.

Jill you say you feel beyond repair but I love how proactive you are being about figuring out your situation, your ways of being. I'm sorry you find yourself in so much confusion these days, when it used to be easier - maybe the confusion is a blessing in disguise if it leads you to a deeper understanding of yourself and your life - that's what I hope for myself.


**Actually this is a good time to apologise on the trigger warning thing - some time ago I wrote about something quite graphic in the EMDR thread. I have edited it since so it has a trigger warning, but it didn't have one at the time because I didn't understand that other people might find it upsetting - because I was so confused about the nature of the incident. I'm really sorry if that surprised and upset anyone.

OK, I will be honest...I reeeeeaaaallly struggle with what is ok and what is not ok to say on the forum. I know a lot of this, for me, has to do with not really understanding the very real "unwritten rules" of social functioning, which kind DO exist, imo... that it is quite possible to say the "wrong" things (not here, I just mean anywhere) and be rejected for it. Jill I have dealt with that very much throughout my life, and it is painful in the extreme. I used to be left wondering "what did I just say, that everyone is looking at me so funny?" I had no friends. I still deal with this, yet over the years, I have learned to compensate, sometimes at the cost of my ability to be honest, and that too, has been very painful. So I hear you. It is easy to hurt people if I just say whatever, whenever it pops into my head, without carefully considering and weighing what could be going on inside of the person reading...it takes me a long time to finish a post when I remember to do this. Maybe you all can relate. That being said...it is impossible to consider the feelings of each and every person who is posting here, and take every single one into account, and not make mistakes, hurt some unwittingly, befriend others, repair without even realizing it sometimes, and so on...it seems to be just the way it works socially, I've noticed. I tend to really lack spontaneous awareness of these kind of things, and have to carefully evaluate with the intellect, what I see others doing in order to learn. It has become more and more "real" for me over the years. This forum has been invaluable for me in practicing some "social skills." It IS an art, and it is learned, and unfortunately, you can never really get back having not learned it at the proper age...and some of the time I can't just let it all hang out there, and other times it seems like it is, actually ok to just let it all hang out there...it seems like a very fine tuned thing, that DOES require a certain amount of instinct...but by practicing with eachother here, we learn, we learn, we learn...and we grow, and it is a supportive, forgiving , dare I say it, loving environment characterized by a basic attitude of acceptance and tolerance of eachother's foibles (well, I have felt my foibles and mishaps and hurtful things I may have done by accident, are accepted and tolerated and forgiven here) and it does give the freedom to practice...I think we are getting a taste of what therapists have to contend with, a lot of the time, that you DO care, and you do wnat to support everyone, you are interested in helping, and you do want to give as much as you can....and you want to receive too...and sometimes, you are forced by time constraints to pick and choose, and you worry about hurting this one or that one...yet it is just the facts of life, that we are all human, full of the capacity for love and care, but alas, full of capacity for error as well, and our time is not infinite either. And we accept eachother in all our brokenness and try to help ecahother as best we can, and Jill, I think it is great you have opened up the conversation this way. Yes, you should be able to say what you feel, freely, and learn here, effective ways to do that, and be heard.
eek, JD, I know now exactly how you were feeling...I will follow your brave lead and press post! Your post was great, btw! I totally agree with everybody about trigger warnings. I often forget that, and I'm never quite sure to use one or not, yet we all have a responsibility to ourselves to figure it out, what to read and what to not read, and so on, and I think it is working out really beautifully, especially considering there is no moderator! Amazing!

Maybe a cyber hug really is silly, yet, it is a way to sign a post that shows that caring was meant, not hurt, and that is why we do that, I think, Jill...
So, silly hugs from me too, for all! I am the master-cyber hugger around here, I think. In real life too. Groan, I always was a hugger. I hope I don't use it as a bandaid.

Well, and, good on you dear draggers, for your input here too..Jones, I'm sad your post disappeared.

AG, I just wanted to chime in here since everyone is being so honest, and say I have often felt sad, that you "take" so little and give so much. And I think you have such a wealth of background and information, I often have felt, "what could I possibly say to her that could help?" And I am sorry for that, in fact. Just because you "know more" doesn't mean you don't need every bit of tenderness and support, and input...

Jill, I am so sorry for any pain you have been in, and it is good, you will try again! Welcome back. I'm very sorry for anything I did- if I judged you harshly in any way or failed to try and understand and accept you.

BB

Hi Jill,

quote:

company normalizes misery...if that makes sense.

That makes perfect sense.

quote:

i guess i'd rather deal with truth than the lies i have structured my whole entire life around trying to be a good girl, take it in stride

And this also makes perfect sense. The 'good girl' role is so perpetual and just plain exhausting sometimes...

I'm sorry I don't have a whole lot to say. Just going through one of those times where being quiet feels easier. Really, I can't add to what everyone else has so beautifully written. I hope that you're able to find what you need here, Jill. I have been wondering where you disappeared to these past few days.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
I know a lot of this, for me, has to do with not really understanding the very real "unwritten rules" of social functioning, which kind DO exist,

YESSSSSS! I don’t know if it’s just me, but one of the most helpful things about therapy so far is just having that example of what a good relationship looks like, and how to interact with people in a “normal” way. As my T always reminds me, “Yes, this is a working relationship, but it’s still a relationship.”

Just by having a relationship with my T he is teaching me, as you said, the “unwritten rules of social functioning”. For example, how to build relationships with people based on mutual trust and respect, instead of physical needs/attraction like I did before. I’m learning boundaries and what is appropriate to say when. I have a feeling that as I post on this forum more and more, it will also help me learn more appropriate social skills.

quote:

...but by practicing with eachother here, we learn, we learn, we learn...and we grow, and it is a supportive, forgiving , dare I say it, loving environment characterized by a basic attitude of acceptance and tolerance of eachother's foibles

This is beautifully said. Yes, this feels to be a very loving environment. And I think this forum can teach me a lot about forming relationships with people that are supportive, forgiving and loving towards one another.

wow, i am so thrilled people are really putting their thoughts into this, and i hope it is helping everyone as much as it is helping me. yes, this site CAN act as a mini-lab of real life, and allow us to practice and learn and get feedback that we wouldn't in real life. so thank you so much for the feedback. i do think i learn much just being in therapy. how to just listen to someone, and know that listening is all that they really need at that moment. that truth (or silence) is better than lying to 'protect' people from the truth. BIG ONE HERE...and we all practice it on the forum, that relationships can and will go through some amount of 'fracturing' or damage, but can and more often than not, can come out better and stronger and deeper than before!! (so aften we see that with the t, and that humanity IS to be expected, so to not be surprised by it, but to not run and hide like i did as a kid...to deal with it in a truthful and adult fashion) i do think i would cut and run with people once my trust was betrayed, and i guess at some point that is still needed, but these little fractures, even though they really hurt, can be talked about (not the silence mandate of childhood)...that talking about them IS what real people do. we DON'T have to cut and run and hide. idk, alot of good to be had out there in life, i suppose, for the steady hearted (a new phrase i love i got from a amy grant song)....my, i would love to ONE DAY be described as STEADY HEARTED....and that is what i am trying SO HARD to model for my children.

anyway, i ramble, but many thanks, BB, your description of this whole social skills stuff as an art is so perfect, an art too, where there are many right ways, and the statement that we are all unique in this, the permission to let it all out, with our best judgment but freedom to 'be who we are'...love that whole feeling you gave in your post, thanks!!jones...your encouragement to let it out there, and the tidbits on how to read a post and keep it 'on track'...the perspective from the therapists eyes, and the awareness of forgiveness in all of these social skills, and the bravery of posting, TOO! kashley, the 'wondering where i had been' made me feel warm and fuzzy! xxoo and ML, been meaning to tell you how much i love your 'tag' ...of listening like God. wow. that is probably on my top ten of things i hope to take out of therapy, the ability to listen. i do, too, think this is a safe place where we can practice these skills, BE exposed for our inner 'secrets', and see that we can still be liked and supported, and maybe not (?) on that list of people too troubled to matter!! y'no, the one, i feared being on. and most importantly, is that we are ALL struggling, or we would not be here, and to cut each other slack if we/they don't respond as we would have liked, but still to 'speak truth with kindness'...one thing i am trying to incorporate into my family, as speaking truth in a family SHOULD be a goal!! always in kindness, but forgiveness when we fail! forgiveness and mercy...faith...all roads lead me to faith as the MOST healing of all. thanks all!! i am glad to be back and thanks to all of you for your 'special' support. i want to be there for y'all, too, and i will try to add to it when appropriate, but i am always (too often for my h's desire) 'listening'!! ((all))

well said blackbird!

This is an awesome discussion guys!

Jill, no apology necessary, I was not in the least offended about what you said and I think it was a totally logical inference from what I said, I just wanted to make it clear that I thought I could use taking care of people as a defense to hide my own vulnerabilities. It wasn't really a dynamic in my family because my older sister had already taken the role of caretaker by the time I came along (I am the youngest of four siblings). But I also think, if I'm honest, I do have somewhat of a history of trying to help other people because I was desperate for approval as well as wanting to make myself useful so I wouldn't get sent away. I sometimes have to work at it to make sure that I'm helping others out of a sense of my worth not out of a sense of my lack of worth.

I want to say thanks again for bringing this up, it's been a really fruitful discussion. It helped me realize that I needed to post about what was going on with me right now so I really appreciate you risking being so open and vulnerable.

quote:

Blackbird said: AG, I just wanted to chime in here since everyone is being so honest, and say I have often felt sad, that you "take" so little and give so much. And I think you have such a wealth of background and information, I often have felt, "what could I possibly say to her that could help?" And I am sorry for that, in fact. Just because you "know more" doesn't mean you don't need every bit of tenderness and support, and input...

((((BB))))) Thank you so much but it's really not true that I "take" so little. When I post and make my needs known, I always receive incredible levels of support and it is often in trying to answer other people's questions that I am able to reflect on what I've learned and make it a more integral part of me so even though it looks like I'm helping other people, I'm also very much growing through it. But I do so want people to feel free to respond to me because if there's one thing I've learned from my T, it's not about what we KNOW, it's about the connection of having our feelings understood. And I don't know as much as you all think I do. And last, but not least, BB I've lost track of how many times your responses have lifted me up and helped immensely, so no apologies.

AG

Wow it’s only been a day yet I seem to be really late to this thread - saw it the other day and thought I’d like to post and now it’s half way down the page. Well too bad I’m going to post anyway

Lol Jill that’s the question central to my life! What the hell is it that everyone else seems to get that I keep missing? Why is it I always end up feeling like I’ve said/done the wrong thing and not said/not done the right thing?

About the only thing I’ve come up with that sometimes helps me cope with what seem to be society’s unspoken unwritten rules that I don’t understand, is to constantly monitor how what I say and do might be affecting other people. Not the best thing to have learned (there are very bad reasons for my having ‘learned’ that rather than knowing it instinctively) but the positive side of it is that it has allowed me to understand a bit how other people think and feel (insofar as that’s possible).

That really helps me when I’m spinning out trying to work out what I’ve done wrong - to try and step back and see that maybe it’s not so much what I’ve done or not done as how the other person might be feeling, for any number of reasons. Have to say though that that ain’t easy!

The other thing that I do when starting something new that involves other people (like joining an internet forum ) is to read around what and how others have posted to get some sense of the ‘etiquette’ - for instance on this one when I first started reading it, I noticed hardly any swearing so automatically monitored my own posts to a minimum of swearing (difficult that, seeing as how in real life I swear all the time lol!) I also noticed a lot of people are Christians on here, and that made me aware to try not to say anything that might be offensive or upsetting to believers...

None of what I do though is fake, it’s more adaptive I suppose. The need to fit in and be accepted is a pretty big drive in me...

Just my thoughts…

LL

Hi LL,

I also wanted to respond to the same thing that Monte quoted...I know that there are lots of judgmental people out there, and there are a lot of judgmental Christians, too. I am Christian, but I absolutely respect everyone's decisions and would never want anyone to feel inhibited because of a fear of offending any Christians. Heck, sometimes...or, most of the time, I'm more angered by people of my own faith than of others. And most often, that's because of how it seems a lot of Christians (nobody here) judge those outside of the religion.

strm, yes, the chameleon thing, i talk about that alot in t, and it disguises me so well at times, that i think my first t didn't get how broken i am, it is hard to shake off, that chameleon thing, as it has saved me for many years, and it is hard to know when i am doing it and not, as i don't know any other way to 'be'...and now i have seemed to completely lost who the hell i am!! i know what you mean about the why's we are all in therapy. i think i can talk about why, but i think one thing, other than the obvious PAIN of talking about it, is it lends me to minimizing my whole deal, as we looked normal from the outside, shoot, my parents sent me to europe in hs with a class trip, i had clothes, piano lessons, all the makings of a normal childhood, cept for the schizo sister and emotionally ignorant parents...for me, it was the drip drip drip of the chinese water torture of negativity, put downs, and invisible needs, with a handful of really cruel events, but, compared to what so many others have endured, idk, i think i come out easy and the comparison stuff makes me retreat into thinking i just need to pull it all together and shake this off and quit being silly, at my age, to mourn my childhood...sorry if there are triggers here, but one thing, i do think we are all wired differently and what one could breeze through another more sensitive type, me, just can't endure. idk, again, blabbing too much, but i don't think it would be healthy for any of us to compare our abuse in a way that would diminish it's significance, or heighten our fear of ever getting well. so, i guess that justifies keeping that element down. and maybe i should erase my 'bit', but i am trying to be out there and honest and take what comes my way. truth over fiction and pretend these days. exposure over protection, real over pretend, honest over lies, vulnerable over 'being a turtle with all limbs and head in the safety of my little world'.

am reading a book on satisfaction in life, and the one thing that it stresses, other than the Christian element, is being in community with others...and that is my catch 22, i RETREAT!! so, i'm trying not too!!

speaking of, kashley and monte, i am a Christian too, newly reborn last fall, never knew i had one foot in and one foot out until i really fell apart this past fall and that was the only lifeline in sight, and it has totally rearranged my world and i am ever so thankful for this breakthrough. i really feel like the only way God could have me rely solely on Him is to take everything else completely away. and He did in many ways. i am struggling faith wise in the summer, as the many (three) weekly bible studies i jumped into are on break for the summer, and i have let loose a little. i know faith in God seemed for me before this as something for the intellectually weak, and i hate to admit that, but that is what i thought, and i am not condemning anyone for feeling whatever they feel, i have been all over the map myself, so i have no place to judge. anyway, i still can cuss like a sailor. but i don't mind cussing, only the gd thing i can't tolerate, but we all have our issues, and i am probably blabbering more than i need to, but, freedom for everyone is what i want, be who you are, and one day, if i can shake this chameleon thing and figure out who the hell i am, i may be out of therapy. i think i am so scared to try new 'me's' on, and maybe afraid of the judgment, so this is a good place to sample things.

i think, and not to pressure anyone, the only thing that really hurts is to be invisible. that is the common factor in most all my triggers...and the one i can most easily trace to childhood.

LL, yes, what IS it they all seem to get...even y'all!! i still feel all bumpy and weird, y'all are so adept at handling all the different personalities, makes me really realize how much better i do one on one. but this is a great place to learn more.

i don't know, it is a maze, and i just appreciate having a place to come when i need a little immersion into this world of figuring this all out.

thanks to everyone for being so open and honest in their responses...jill

quote:

i think, and not to pressure anyone, the only thing that really hurts is to be invisible.

Jill you’ve just described my own major ‘trigger’ (I use the word trigger advisedly, what I really mean is the thing that pushes my buttons of rage and pain but it’s never unmanageable).

Being invisible, not counting, not mattering, being ignored, apparently put down, negated, not validated, not heard, not appreciated (?) - as if I could believe I could be appreciated anyway! (old message) - those are the things that affect me the most - to the point where I’ll do just about anything to belong and be accepted.

I get the chameleon reference - can’t say so much that I change according to whom I’m with, rather I’ve developed a way of being with people that is based entirely on what I perceive their expectations, wants, demands to be (all tacit and unspoken) - that can get really tricky when it’s a group of people rather than individuals. Trying to meet everyone else’s needs and wants while at the same time covertly hoping to get some of mine met in the process. A REALLY bad way to be (but allowed me to survive and even learn some real lessons) - because like STRM says, it feels inauthentic, I’m having to monitor all the time in order not to reveal the ‘real’ me and over the years the need to just ‘be’ the real me has become an overwhelming drive. I guess everyone can relate when I say it’s HUGELY dangerous to do that.

Kashley and Monte, thanks for the comments about not having to be too self censoring when it comes to religion. But I’d do it automatically anyway - one thing I can’t do is know in advance that what I’m going to say could be offensive and say it anyway. Simply not capable of it lol. Though I’m sure I do say lots of things that are offensive, just don’t know it at the time.

Funny this thread seems to have brought out a lot of insecurities here, now everyone is being super careful in their posts to consider how they are affecting others - hope we go back to normal soon

LL

I was just thinking of this other unspoken rule here that I think is worth speaking:

Be gentle with yourself.

So much important and tricky emotional stuff goes on on these boards. It's a beautiful and healing place to be, but it's also a place to be careful with yourself, given the depth and strength of the content and the connections we form here. Sometimes it's like playing with fireworks.

There seems to be a whole lot going on at the moment in particular, and I think a lot of that is partly down to growth in the number of active posters here. It's a wonderful and exciting thing, but I think it has some knock-on effects too.

One I notice for myself is that it's getting harder to read ALL the posts, like I often do. I lose the thread/s more often. And there is so much intense, high-quality sharing going on that if I DO try to read everything, the chances of me coming across a bunch of triggers is higher. And there's simply a lot of different 'faces' around, which I really enjoy and which feels stimulating, but which also contributes to that sense of new ground.

So, I'm guessing other people are having some of these feelings too, and I think it's worth noticing them so they don't take us by surprise. Personally I'm trying to think consciously of ways to handle the shifts - like giving myself permission not to read everything, thinking a little bit more carefully about how I'm feeling before I visit or post, being conscious of how I feel about stuff on the boards and whether I need to do something extra to process (e.g. write in my journal), whether I need non-posting time or (shock! no!) time away from reading. Just slowing down in general rather than gobbling up all the emotional stimulation real quick and getting a belly ache.

I know self-care doesn't come easy for some of us but maybe it's a good place to practice doing it - in whatever ways feel ok. I think taking this on is one way to really strengthen how much we can be present for others, and a way to help protect this beautiful little eco-system we have here, too.

Take care, all.

J

why do i always start every post with 'WOW'??

but, WOW, such great stuff LL and Jones.

LL, yes, you got it, it is how i adapt at trying to be liked, for me, a selfish goal to avoid pain, rather than the alruistic light i had thought it to be, maybe a little of both, but definitely the purpose of the chameleon is multi-dimensional. and Jones, i guess i came on the board in a period of greater activity and more posters, and feel a bit relieved to hear you say that, as i am just marveling at how you all not only balance, but 'twirl' the needs of others so adeptly. i feel like the blind leading the blind in here, as i do in most crowds, trying to distinguish the individual from the group. and, the need for self care, too, i feel guilty NOT reading and helping at times, actually today, would not let myself get on the forum til after church and lunch, as opposed to having my breakfast coffee with y'all. had coffee with hubby, and i know that is what i am supposed to do, but, get on here and feel guilty i don't have more time to respond and nurture others, as my family needs me to be 'there'....so, kind to yourself implies the awareness that all of us are pulled in many directions, and as much as we all love our time here, any invisibility I FEEL needs to be balanced with knowing others have lives too.

i most close, for now, in saying, y'all are all the most wonderful, dear, enchanting, resilient, authentic, transparent, genuine bunch of 'buddys' a girl could wish for!!

hugs to all!! jill