Liese,

Well, since he's already drawn the boundaries around touch then I'm not sure I would ask for the first few things you mentioned as he'd likely say no. He's pretty much already said no.

However, I think asking him to sit in the floor is very reasonable. Closing the blinds is also very reasonable. You could suggest something about the walls and decor, but to me that doesn't really have as much to do with your therapy (though you might feel better if it was an inviting office).

I'm not sure what else to ask. I've asked me T for a lot. Once I wrote a list (before a vacation). I told her it sort of reads as a list of demands, but it wasn't meant as such and she was free to say no to any of it. She didn't, but she could have.

I'm curious what he means as well. I'm not quite sure.

STRM,

What kinds of things have you asked for, if you don't mind sharing. What as in your list of demands before a vacation? Obviously he has something(s) in mind because he has brought it up several times now. So, there are things he would give me but I don't know what they are.

STRM, BG and DF,

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I'm so not clued into my needs and wants so it's hard for me oftentimes to know what I want or need and then to ask. I'm a bit thick that way. Sometimes, although not too lately, he's been talking about other people in our sessions. I wanted to ask him to stop doing that as it makes me feel as if he's not really there with me. But then he usually has a point to make and so then I think I'm just being insecure because he's trying to be instructive here and then I invalidate myself and don't say anything at all. I DO feel possessive of my time with him because I do have to share him with like a million people and when he's with me, I do want to feel like he's just with me and really with me and that his attention is WITH ME and not connected to some river of people running through his head.

I also thought, if I really got brave, that I'd bring up the touch stuff. I've had plenty of male friends whom I've been close with but not sexual with and we've had that sense of intimacy, touching shoulders when walking next to each other, just leaning into someone, etc. He said that about the hugs and hands a long time ago before our relationship reached the level of intimacy it now has. And, so maybe now he would sit closer to me. He also threw out randomly recently about a study that he read that basketball players who touched each other more, like high fives and slaps on the butt, etc., won more games. And, I thought to myself, ohhh, he does get the touch stuff. But maybe he just has to be careful. I just have to be prepared to hear him say no and when I feel that I can handle a no, I will ask him about it. I'm not even sure I could handle the intimacy.

I am getting this huge sense now that he's really into meeting my emotional needs and it's a pretty awesome feeling. I'm not sure how many people in my life have worked this hard to make me happy AND the best part is that he's not asking for anything in return. It's all about making me feel good. Well, I guess I am paying for it. But still, it's hard sometimes.

I've asked my T to talk more, I've asked her to give me a few mins at the end to talk about light unimportant stuff so that I can decompress. I've asked her to be on time.

She doesn't really do any of these things consistently, but I do think he tries sometimes.

Let's see, I've asked my T to pay close attention to her tone of voice especially when she is feeling frustrated. I've asked her not to say certain things because they are triggering or feel like she's about to lecture me. I've asked her to sit with me. I've asked her to just be with me and not expect me to talk or do anything...just sit with me and just be together with whatever comes up. I've asked her to turn lights off, close blinds, move furniture (we do that a lot, but it's something that T does). Before her vacations I've asked her to record a story for the younger parts (once), I asked her to make the countdown chains for her trips, I've asked her to move back away from me. I've asked her to cover her head. I've asked to not look at me.

The list goes on and on. To be fair, most all of these were things I knew T would say yes to because it's just how she works. Mostly I feel like I can ask her anything within reason. I can't ask her to move in with me, adopt me etc., but those are all unreasonable.

Like STRM, I have asked for and gotten a lot from my T. We are still in the midst of negotiating the touch stuff, though. I thought maybe a list would help.

Asked for and received:
* Later sessions.
* Sitting on the floor.
* Moving the evil glass table (though, so far, I have only moved it a few inches).
* Turning off overhead lights (using desk lamp)...T has no windows as he's in an inner office of an office building, so that would be akin to asking to close the blinds.
* Tone down the "God stuff."
* To respond to my distress in certain ways and not others (i.e. identifying which ways work/help and which make things worse). Basically, about avoiding negative triggers with me.
* To turn on the heater (once, with much prompting from him).
* To not ask of it's OK to pray/wrap up (gives me parts conflict), but just suggest it is time to do so.
* To reassure me when I'm feeling abandoned (i.e. specific requests for texts to say that everything is OK when I'm worried).
* To change a topic during a session.
* An extra session (went poorly, but still got it).
* To keep my phone sessions rather than trade them for an early double session every week and have to ask every time I wanted a phone session.
* For him to be more firm and directive, especially with closing sessions.

Things I have asked whether they are possible and will probably get eventually, but have not yet specifically requested:
* Hugs (T said maybe only goodbye hugs).
* Sitting side-by-side (T said it would be OK). We sit kind of side-by-side on the floor on occasion, but most often he's really far away or facing a different direction.

Things I have hinted at, but haven't been discussed:
* Physical contact during prayer.
* A parting routine, like him walking me out to the lobby.

I don't know if anything has been outright rejected. It seems that rather than reject something, my T seems to negotiate it, like what other things might get at the same need or researching whether he feels comfortable with it or the timing is right. Like DF's T, he won't push me like I want. If I asked him to do hypnosis (he is trained) to help with parts work, he would say no, as he won't do that anymore (feels it is too much pushing, not enough waiting for things to progress safely on their own). I try to get him to push, make me talk about things, but he won't do that.

I am suddenly realizing for someone who fancies themselves horrible at receiving or getting needs met by others, I sure do it a lot with my T, LOL. Probably because most of these things were a process of revealing those needs slowly over many months, just little bits of feelings being risked at a time. I think how that came about was first the discomforts or needs would come up in journal entries over and over. Then, occasionally, I would get uncomfortable in session, T would ask why, and I would be able to say, "Well, it's what I've written about the lighting in here," and since he already had a context, it was easier to say. Also, I've found that bringing up anything, but especially asking for things, is easier if I start small. Last session, I had little parts wanting him to come closer and all I could say was, "It's about proximity." We didn't end up doing more than addressing what those feelings were like at the time, as I think that big boundary stuff may take weeks or months to sort out, but it was less scary to talk about little pieces than to try to dive in to the whole big topic all at once. I don't know if any of that is helpful, but I hope so.

Oh, I just remembered that I asked T to stop changing the subject when I'm talking about something that she may not realize is important.

I also asked her to pay more attention when I am talking about particular topics that I think she has failed to see how significant they are in my current ED and depression (i.e., my recent divorce....hello?! She changes the subject every time I bring it up!).

I've also asked for her to apologize for being late when she's late, because I think its very disrespectful not to. She has been doing this.

LG, STRM, YAKU,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this stuff out. It's sooo helpful. When he says it, I always think, gosh, what should I ask for? A mansion? More money? It just doesn't occur to me that the little things can be big things.

I have asked for two sessions a week, which I got. I did indicate annoyance recently when he was talking about another client and asked him if the point was related to what we were talking about. He said yes, so I let him continue but I was still annoyed. I have to be more assertive on that one.

I do feel as though I'd be more comfortable on the floor though I don't know why. I guess it feels more casual and easy. Yaku, do you find it helpful to be on the floor? Do you sit on the floor every session?

Sometimes yes I do think it would be good if he didn't look at me, especially if I was crying. But since I can hardly let myself cry in there, that's not a problem yet.

Sometimes he doesn't follow up on things and I think it might be helpful for him to push me more. Like when I revealed my deep love for him, I told him about another relationship wherein I felt the same way that ended not so horribly but it ended. In that relationship, the other person wanted a romantic relationship with me and I didn't with him. I thought we were just the best of friends and had no idea that he was feeling anything deeper. And so when he revealed that he wanted more, I tried to "fake" it for a little while 1. because he was my best friend and 2. I didn't want to hurt him. But ultimately, I couldn't muster up the feelings, the relationship ended and he never talked to me again.

So, I told T that story very quickly at the end of a session recently and he said something to me he has never said before, let's talk more about that relationship in the next session. I liked that he said that, that he gave me a sense of direction but the next session came and went and neither one of us brought it up. I would have talked about it had he asked me questions but it was too painful for me to bring up on my own.

And then there are the approval issues. He has said he will talk about anything BUT I am so afraid of bringing up anything that's not important, of being seen as dwelling on the past or trying to make a bigger deal out of things. I know this is all projection but I can't seem to get past it. That would make a good convo, I guess.

I just feel like I'm spinning my wheels on my own. He told me that I say I want him to help direct the sessions but he doesn't think I really want to give up control. I told him it's because I'm an emotional idiot and I can't name my feelings yet or most of the time even figure out what I'm feeling and so I'm avoiding revealing that by avoiding his questions. Maybe I just need to ask him to help me more in this area.

You guys gave me so many good ideas.

Hey Liese,

I have a *very* hard time asking T for anything. It's slowly gotten a tiny, tiny bit easier. But, for me, it started with just one or two very small, very simple questions (or requests). It's taken me a very long time to be able to ask her for anything, and 90% of the time, I still can't manage to ask. How long have you been with your T? Try to be patient with yourself. As you begin to feel safer with T and with the relationship, you'll find that you are able to ask more questions. ((((Liese))))

Liese - If we're trying to do parts stuff, I'm nearly always on the floor...first, because if I am really upset, I just find it easier to be on the floor, especially if T is on the floor with me. It's like physically being on that same plane makes a difference. Second, because we have been coloring a lot. So, the last few sessions, at least a portion of each has been on the floor, maybe 50/50 overall. However, we do not sit on the floor by rule. We go in, sit in our usual places and either he offers to do art or I ask to move to the floor every time. He does turn down the lights by default now, which is very sweet, to have my needs anticipated in that way. Last session, I brought some photos to look at and he asked about having more light, so he could see them, but I must have had a terrified reaction when he turned them on, because he looked at me and said, "Uh...that's no good, huh?" and opted instead to move the lamp to the table we were sitting at. Off-topic, there, sorry...just having mushy, I love my T feelings now.

Regarding seating configuration, how would it feel to just start out about how the current set up if his room makes you feel? That is how I introduced the topic several months ago. I wrote a journal entry about how different aspects of his office made me feel evaluated or unsafe. I said I didn't expect changes, appreciated that much of what I would like would probably be impossible, but wanted him to know what I was struggling against. It still took a couple of months for me to feel like it was OK for me to actually ask for sitting on the floor (which went away for a bit and now we are doing it again), and a couple more to ask about the table and the lights. But now, I pretty much know nothing I ask is going to distress him or make him hate me. The worst I will get is him trying to get at what my particular discomfort is, so we can address it in a way that works with his boundaries or he can see how negotiable he feels about boundaries no one has tested before (or at least recently).

Yeah, I don't like to know T is looking at me, but since I hardly look at him when I'm upset and I nearly never cry, that's not too much of a problem yet.

One thing I have asked of my T that he has tried to do, but either he is not very good at or I shut him down when he tries is to ask me specific questions. It gives me more permission to speak and makes it easier for me to take it a little bit at a time. For instance, I have (not-sure-if-it's-really) a memory to share with him that I've been trying to get to for weeks now and I feel like if he just said, "I'd like to know what's coming up for you with that memory stuff. Could you tell me what you see?" or something specific like that, I could share. But I need that push and he has trouble doing that. He really likes to leave things up to me and I like to leave things up to him. If he leaves them up to me, it's incredibly anxiety-producing to try to share stuff without prompting. If I leave it up to him, he often focuses on things that are not as big of a priority or like your T, forgets that were were going to follow up on something. Your T does email, correct? My T has asked me to try to text/email agendas ahead of time for my sessions. Sometimes, I go in and say, "Nevermind, nobody wants to talk about that BS anymore," but sometimes it really helps to commit myself to certain topics that I know I really need to discuss. This is how all our boundaries discussions of late have gotten accomplished. Because, I go in having told him we need to talk about XYZ, so when I show up, he'll say, "OK, you said you wanted to talk about X. How is X going? Is there something specific we need to address about Y? Oops, we ran out of time for Z!" Because, realistically, my agendas are a little ambitious. Anyway, I don't know if those tips will help at all.

Hi Liese I like that your T is giving you explicit permission to ask for things. I am guessing that he is aware that you might have a block on being able to ask for stuff for yourself and this is his way of gently prodding you into taking some risk in your therapy?

Some interesting replies here! It’s good to read them because I wouldn’t tend to think of asking for concrete stuff, like sitting somewhere else or moving furniture or changing lighting (in fact it was only on reading some posts on here ages ago that prompted me to sit in a different chair with one of my former Ts, it would never have occurred to me otherwise good girl that I am I’d have just sat in the T designated chair and not even thought anything of it for ever and ever…)

I do on the other hand regularly ask for things to do with T’s responses, and have done so whether T has given me ‘permission’ or not.

So some things I have asked of various Ts in the past – a second and even third weekly session on a regular basis. Asking a T not to talk so much. Asking for more pauses and silence so I can reflect on what I’ve said. Asking a T to stop continuing talking to me in therapy mode as I’m getting ready to leave and am walking out the door. Asking T to regularly check with me how I’m feeling. Asking that I don’t have to stare at a clock all session. Being specific about the type of response I’m wanting to something I’m saying. Asking a T if he would read in between sessions some stuff I’d written... lol I suppose being critical of some things a T does or says could also be counted as asking for things, though maybe not so politely.

Do you think your T is expecting you only to ask for specific discrete things, or perhaps he is also trying to encourage you to look at what more you are wanting directly from him, in terms of the way he is with you in session?

I agree with STRM that if your T has already indicated a no touch policy then to ask for touch at this point and getting a no could really knock you back. But asking to sit closer for instance doesn’t really violate any no touch policy and could be something that you could work up to suggesting?

It might be a good idea for you to brainstorm a list for yourself, just writing everything down that comes to you – you might be surprised at just how many things you do want and could get that you haven’t consciously thought about before.

This is a good question though, it’s really enlightening reading about the things that others have asked for, certainly has given me lots of ideas!

LL

Kashley, I'm sorry it's hard for you to ask for things too. I hope it gets easier for both of us soon. I have taken baby steps towards asking for things but .... they are really only baby steps.

Yaku, I love to color but would feel funny asking T if we could color together. I saw a T once who told me I could play in her sandbox and, for me, then, that was such a turnoff and so I never went back. But I do like the idea of coloring with him, maybe it would just kind of take the focus off of having to talk and make the relationship a little more spontaneous instead of forced. And, so how did the coloring thing come about for you? And how do you feel about it? I'll have to think more about the floor thing. I stare at the floor longingly everytime I walk into his office but then dutifully go sit where I always sit.

LL, I love all of things you've been able to ask for. And yes, I do think he might be trying to get me to look at what I want more directly from him in terms of the way he is with me in session. He seems so calm lately and I told him that I really like that and feel much more comfortable with that. Maybe his awful vacation was actually good for him.

I just wasn't sure about talking about touch because he said he didn't hug or hold hands, not that he didn't touch ... although all of you out there are probably thinking, gosh, liese, get with the program, of course that's what he meant. I tend to need things very explicitly stated for me. If someone is vague and leaves something out, I don't seem to generalize like that.

But then, he did throw out that study about the basketball players, really very randomly. We weren't even talking about it. And yes, DF, I thought of asking him to high five but haven't been able to.

I can understand the not touching but to me it just FEELS like such a natural extension of my relationship with him now, that not to touch feels odd and strange and it almost calls attention to the fact that we don't touch. He used to walk right next to me in the hallway as we walked out but seems to be walking a full foot away from me now - if I'm not mistaken. And, I'm feeling a little bit of a pariah. Ok, yes, I'm a lonely old woman who hasn't had sex in a long time. But I'm not afraid that I'm going to jump his bones. It's just not going to be like that for me.

Thanks to everyone for sharing. It was really interesting. I'm going to have to dig deep, I think, on this one. I really would like to ask him to paint his office. I'm just a color person, that's all. Can't stand white walls.

I can relate to noticing those little things like him walking a bit further away. I would bet he's not conscious of it though. I never used to bring it up, but recently, when T has moved to a different position, I risked to let him know that a little one felt like he was moving away or running away. So, you know what he did? He moved back! Then, I felt horrible that I had somehow influenced or changed him and said, "Oh no! You didn't have to change anything...I just wanted to let you know what's going on inside." T must think I believe he's an @$$hole or someone who likes to know I'm in pain, because I will say, "When you do _____, it is excruciatingly painful...it makes me miserable. Wait, I didn't mean you had to change it!" Anyway, that was off-topic. High fives was on my random list of contact I want with T!

Coloring was a completely foreign idea to me. It first came up very early on in therapy, having been asked if I wanted to do some non-dominant hand coloring. I always kind of sketch/doodle in my notebook that I bring to take notes (i.e. prop to keep me from having to look at my T). I actually think I unconsciously use it to dissociate, because I'll find these large blocks of dashes or dots or geometric shapes that I start doing when things get intense. Anyway, T offered a few times, but I always declined. After we started parts work, he said that play therapy and art therapy were two ways he would work with little parts. I finally was willing to try...but, each time I've tried, it has taken over 15 minutes of hearing internally, "It'll be wrong. It's ugly! I'm bad!" etc. before I can get going in earnest. Then sometimes I draw stuff that I don't even know how, but it manages to trigger me and I'll be back in that "I can't do this!" place. I actually find it's more useful as a tolerating being close to T exercise than anything else. That's all a bit off-topic, but I think 90% of the reason I'm willing to do coloring is just because it is something we're doing together. I couldn't have done it if it were just him watching me do it, for sure.

Yaku,

I love that you enjoy being close to him as you color. And I agree it's so much more meaningful to do it together. I just might bring in some coloring books. Of course, I always color in the lines!!!

Oh, I have such a hard time doing exactly what you described in your first paragraph, telling T how things he does affect me. I always feel really bad and don't want to influence him either. And I also feel like I could get really picky if he lets me get carried away with this. I just don't know who IRL would want to work so hard to meet my emotional needs and who would actually be willing to bend to make me happy? What on earth is this teaching me, to become a tyrant?

Oh, just thought of another thing I asked T once...if she would move to the state where I live so we could have therapy in person. She didn't respond to that.

When I was with T2, I asked for a few things from her....

If I could bring a blanket from home to therapy. She said of course.

I also asked if she would shut the door to the outside because I felt like it was bad feng shui to leave it open.

I wanted to ask her if I could bring cake to therapy and eat it with her, because normally that is a triggering food for me. But I never had the courage.

I also wanted to ask her for a hug, but her body language told me to never do that.

I also wanted to ask her to go the grocery store with me, but we didn't get that far and terminated before I could ask.

((((((LG)))))

So touching that you asked T1 to move to the state where you live. I wish she could for your sake.

Love the feng shui request.

xoxo

Liese

Hi Liese,

This is an intersting topic. First let me say that I don't think it's a matter of asking for things you KNOW you will get... it's more asking for what you need and knowing that whether the answer is yes or no, that you CAN ask and that it will be discussed as to why or why not it can be done. And that there will be a real reason why or why not.

The problem I had with oldT is that he was so abritrary. He kept changing his mind about things and it just confused me no end. He had such blurry boundaries. And he never had sensible explanations for anything.

I have asked my current T for a number of things. The first was that I needed him to make his office darker. To close the blinds. He was fine with that and now I always find the blinds closed when I walk in there.

I asked him if I could bring a blanket to his office and leave it there. He was fine with that and wanted me to leave my blanket is a visible place so that I knew he would see it and think of me when he did.

I told him that his sitting close to me and patting my arm really helped me when I was having a tough time. The arm pat at the end really helps to ground me when I leave. When I'm upset and he moves his chair closer to me it helps me to feel safe enough to tell him stuff.

I have asked to borrow a book from his bookshelf.

I asked for twice weekly sessions.

I recently asked him to hold a small glass heart for me while I was away on vacation. He told me he would take good care of my heart. He had it waiting for me when I got back.

I asked him if we could occasionally have a longer session when I needed to reveal something big that would take more time.

I have NOT yet asked him if I could hug him. I plan to eventually have the "touch" conversation but there have been so many other things to deal with lately there has never been a good time for it. Also, in the beginning I could never imagine that I would WANT to hug him. I was so traumatized touching anyone just freaked me out.

There are many things I thought I would ask but he offered them before I could get around to it. Like email or phone calls. Weekend contact and vacation contact is fine with him. He offered to tell me where he went on vacation. He tells me how he feels about me without me having to ask. He is really good at anticipating my needs which tells me that he is realy paying attention and is attuned to me.

I just want to add here that I see a lot of good changes in your relationship with T. I'm glad he remains consistent and is very open to having these discussions with you and he seems to strive to be honest in his responses. I'm glad things are going well, even when having these very hard conversations. Keep up the good work.

Hugs
TN

Hi Monte,

It's really nice talking to you too. I am sorry you are bedridden for a couple of days. I hope it's nothing serious.

Wow, you've asked for a lot from your T. That's great. I've asked for things too but wasn't giving myself enough credit. But since he's bringing the issue up, as if there are things I can have that I'm not asking for, I am intriqued. Of course, I know what I would really like but know I can't have that.

Oh, yes, Monte, it was me that admitted to my T that I was romantically attracted to him. But I think most of it is paternal. When I look back at my relationships with men, they've really been mostly platonic with me seeking some kind of parental comfort. I haven't looked for the passion. Even with my H. I remember my best friend telling me when I was going to marry my H that she felt that our relationship lacked that passion and spark but I didn't think it was important. I had wanted to marry my best friend. And, so I don't think that's a HUGE issue for me. It just kind of reminds me of back in the day, with my first boyfriend and we would just go to this park which is the highest point where I live and we'd just neck. And it was so much fun. Everything seemed to get more complicated once sex entered the picture.

I love Jenga too. My T has lots of games because he works with kids and I know he has othello. I toyed too with asking him to verse me in a game of othello but haven't done it either. Yes, sometimes it seems as though it would take the formality out of the relationship. I go twice a week now since November/December and it has helped a lot. My T didn't offer it until I had a complete meltdown and asked him why he made everything so hard for me. He had been keeping me on his float list for my second appointment and that was triggering all my abandonment stuff and definitely wasn't therapeutic. I just want to say that it might be possible for him to fit you in and don't just assume he doesn't have the time. I didn't think my T would be able to fit me in either but he has, but again, only after it became a huge issue.

But you make a good point, that they have to see a therapeutic value. It was like that with the second weekly appointment. Once I told him that I was having a really hard time handling my emotions on my own (which was and is the truth), he was much more on board with it than if I had just said, I miss you and want to see you more. And I even remember him saying, okay, well that's a clinical reason. And even now, he knows our financial situation is precarious and he has said to me that if things get really bad, he doesn't want me to cancel my appointments because that wouldn't be "clinically" advisable and that we'll work out the financial stuff later.


Sometimes when I cry, I get this throbbing head thing that feels like my nervous system going out of control and I always feel that it would be therapeutic for him to put his hands on my head during an episode like that. And, so I could think of a therapeutic purpose for touch. But honestly, I'm still not sure I'm comfortable with the intimacy myself. I think I'd have to feel really really safe in order to cry and to let him touch me like that.

I struggle with letting him sit close because then I think he'll be looking at my teeth and I'll be looking at his teeth and I'll be smelling him for odd odors (I'm very sensitive to smell) and he'll be smelling me for odd odors. I remember one time he got really enthusiastic about something and I smelled his breath from 5 feet away and he had the smell of coffee on his breath - which I hate - and I almost keeeled over. You can see this is not going to be easy for me to sort out.

Sometimes, I just think about and I'm not sure I'd want to do it and I don't think he'd let me, but sometimes I just wish I could just hug him, like a small child hugging a dad or a favorite uncle goodbye. Sometimes I just want to thank him in that way and let him know how grateful I am that he's let me "use" him in this way, that he's let me attach and love him.

Anyway, Monte, so jenga away. I think that sounds like a great idea. Does T have a small card table stashed somewhere that he could pull out? I've never seen one in my T's office but he MUST have something somewhere because he talks about playing games with the kids. There's something so comforting about the kitchen table, right? The kitchen table was the center of the universe in my FOO. (Not me, the kitchen table) Everything seemed to happen at the kitchen table. Someone was always sitting there doing something.

xoxoxo

Hope you feel better soon and are up and hobbling around,

Liese

Hello - good topic
Just asked for the first time, after a couple of bad re-traumatising events that happend in sessions recently- could I bring something to hold onto while we talk ?
T's answer - yes. So two weeks ago she met Taubin (my teddy bear) and this week Penguin (no named penguin toy). She even asked would it be okay to hold teddy bear ! which was cool for me. Not yet feeling brave enough to ask for anything else - wow to those who have

Oh... Liese I wanted to add here that I asked my T if I could play show and tell with him. I had emailed him one night asking if it was okay if I brought things in with me to session that would enable me to get past the wall I felt was blocking me and any progress I could make.

He was great and wrote back that I was welcome to bring in anything to help me allow him to know me better.

I'd like to play a game with him too...I used to do that with oldT and my son. It was actually for my son but I found it extremely healing for me too.

TN

Our sessions and with our type of therapists here - definitely a no touch system - no matter how distressed you are or how hard the topic. If the T touches or hugs - then they have stepped over the line. But sometimes a simple hug would fix a world of heartache.....

Because of this topic, I felt brave enough to bring a few things up with my T. Currently there are two chairs that face each other - I have mine, she has hers. To me there is a big fat line dividing the room and we don't cross over into the other territory. There is a table to the side that annoys the crap out of me. Sitting there facing her leaves me incredibly vulnerable and I feel defensive. I think they deliberately put the chairs like that so you feel the T is open and listening to you but for me - it is a barrier for me. I told her all this. I would rather sit at the table.

Then there is the glass.... There is always a fresh glass of water on the table which is a lovely thing, but I will never drink it. That glass is like having a third person in the room for me. It annoys me. Last session was about me learning how I miscue everyone and never ask for what I need - so I thought I would ask via an email.

wow, I can't believe that you folks actually ask your t for stuff. I think the only thing I've ever asked for is maybe another session. I wouldn't even know how to begin to ask for things. I really don't ask anyone for anything, most of the time. I was brought up to learn to take care of myself and so asking for things, especially if it is for me, is almost impossible. Once in a blue moon maybe.

Hi Smiley

Are there a couple of things you'd like to ask your T for?

I'm surprised your T has not encouraged you to ask for what you need. A big part of my therapy has been learning to ask for what I need...to learn to get my needs met by someone, especially an attachment figure.

think of something small... start there....

TN

So, last night I realized the difference between things I feel like I can ask for and things I feel like I can't. I had a perfect opportunity where one part just wanted him to sit closer. He started off the session going straight to the floor (I took a while to move down myself), but not side-by-side and like five or six feet away. I told him one part wanted to ask for something and another wouldn't let it happen. He asked why and I told him, "Because it's not justifiable." So, we went into a whole bunch of background about how any request I make has to be justifiable, which I'm surprised he hasn't noticed me "proving why I need things" for a long time before I'll ask for them. Anyway, the reality that this part just wanted to "feel connected," and that was the only reason and it was not "good enough" to be allowed to ask. If there had been a memory or something particularly hard to share, then she would have been allowed to ask, but there wasn't...just wanting someone near.

He asked me if we could try an exercise, for me to ask him for anything, something ridiculous, random and unjustifiable, but something he could do. I think he was going to, of course, do it and show me he's happy to do something or me, just because I ask, without needing any reason or proof. I couldn't come up with a single thing that qualified other than wanting him nearby and that was too much. So, epic fail. I think once he's done with his research-y project where he decides very clear-cut boundaries on touch and proximity, things will be easier. Or I really hope so.

Anyway, kind of vulnerable to share this here, but I figured it might resonate with someone else's experiences. I'm sure there must be others out there who don't feel like they're allowed to want or need anything unless they can specifically identify and prove why it is obviously necessary and would also benefit the giver. Kind of an exhausting way to get needs met. Sigh.

YAKU,

I want to actually reply to everyone on the thread but don't have time now .... but just wanted to say that please don't feel vulnerable. That was a beautiful thing you shared with us. I'm sorry that it was so frustrating for you and that you weren't able to ask for what you wanted. All we can do it keep trying, right?

And, so your T is actually researching touch and proximity???

Hard to share this, because I still feel like everyone thinks I make this stuff up (which, is actually just what I hear from myself).

Yes, we have been talking about it for several weeks. Last Tuesday, he said something about a compromise, but I kind of blanked out about it. Then in our Friday phone session, a protector insisted that stuff had to go through her. So, he explained that he had been rereading his old books on the topic and found they were more liberal than he remembered them being. He said he has been "consulting" too, which I guess means asking another therapist. Also, he said he wants to look up some more recent research on the topic. So, I'm trying to just be patient, because whatever decision he makes, I want him to be 100% comfortable with it, not liable to suddenly change his mind, and for it to feel like something he has done, because it is what he feels good about and not like my needs are pushing him into it. His one requirement so far is that both of us keep my H up-to-date on anything of that nature, but I tell my H pretty much everything regarding therapy anyway. He has said his personal inclination when he sees someone hurting (well, in this case, he said "a child," because he was talking about a little part) would be to scoop them up in his arms and give them as many hugs as needed. But, also that we're working with the reality that I am a big kid and there are professional ethics and my well-being as someone with a trauma background to consider. So, I am trying to be super patient and let him work through all that stuff. I'm really surprised he has not had to work through it in the past. He used to do goodbye hugs, then a supervisor pressured him to stop for a while early on, but he does it on occasion now with some clients. So, touch is not out of the question. We just have to figure out what is right for him and for my particular situation. Not trying to hijack your thread, but wasn't sure how much background info you had. Don't remember if I posted that stuff or just PMed about it.

Yaku,

I don't feel like you are making it up. Thanks for sharing with me. It's interesting to know that the "negotiations" have been going on for several weeks. I've been terrified to ask my T about it simply because he announced all on his own his "no hugs, no hand-holding" policy. But I do see room in there for other things. So it might be worth exploring. As DF said, he might play with proximity, etc.

I always think people think I'm making things up too or doing things to get attention. But I also do something else that I think is wierd. I admit to doing things I haven't done. Like, for instance, in 6th grade I was done with my test and just staring into space. It looked like I was staring at the girls paper in front of me. (I wasn't, I swear.) The teacher came up and asked if I was looking at her test and I said yes and she gave me a big fat zero. Whenever something goes missing or gets stolen, say, I always think everyone is going to think it's me and I've never stolen anything in my life. (Okay a little candy from the store, but that's it.) Why do I confess to crimes I didn't commit?

Thanks for the background info. I hope he resolves it all soon in your favor.

xoxo

Liese

TN, I see we crossposted this morning. You've asked new T for so many things. You are so brave. I wish New T could have been your first T too. But I still can't believe how much you have done with New T in a year. You've asked him for many more things than I have and we know how long I've been with my T.

Thanks for telling me that you see a lot of positive changes in my relationship with my T. That means a lot. I feel the positive changes too. It's really nice. I'm really starting, on some days anyway, to really feel him as my rock and to begin, in small ways, to let go and focus on my life instead of being so obsessed with him all the time.

Justmaybe, You were brave to ask for what you asked for. I haven't been able to ask for anything like that, to bring a stuffed animal or blanket. I'm a strictly in the lines kind of girl, often to my detriment and wait for permission, I guess, before moving an inch. Hopefully that will change.

Somedays, and so did you sit at the table? I can feel that line between you two the way you describe it. Interesting about the glass of water feeling like there is a 3rd person in the room. I am so glad you are planning on talking to her about it.

Smiley,

It's hard for me too to ask for what I need. Beyond that, it's often hard for me to even know what I need, much less ask for it. So much work to do. I hope you can think of something to ask for.

Yaku, I don't blame you for being a little nervous about asking since T is doing his research. I would feel the same way, like I'm bugging him a little. So I don't see the situation as an epic fail. But the question is, is he waiting for you to bring it up again? Or do you think he'll bring it up spontaneously when he has finished his research?

Thanks to everyone for sharing. It's been really insightful and helpful. I'll let you all know if I ask for anything at my session tomorrow and what T says.

Just one last thought: one of the things I've thought about asking him for is to stop talking about other clients in our sessions. I don't want to seem obnoxious doing it but just feel like he's not really there with me when he talks about his other clients. On the other hand, I seem to invalidate myself by saying, I'm just being insecure here. What difference does it make if he talks about his other clients if what he has to say is instructive? I do the same thing with my H, who has a tendency to join conversations I'm enjoying and I get a little mad. Oftentimes, he barges in and takes over. And then I say to myself again, oh, I'm just being insecure. What difference does it make that he's joining the conversation. It's nice that he came over to chat with us. But I just always feel so intruded upon, like I don't have any space of my own.

So, I just might bring that up to T tomorrow as one of the things I actually ask him to STOP doing, regardless of whether or not it means I'm insecure. Can't he find another way to illustrate his point?

Oh, and I also wanted to add that I'm very jealous of people who are so tuned in to their needs and are able to take care of them without really drawing attention to the fact that they are taking care of them. Like, they just do it. They would just do whatever it is that would make them feel more comfortable.

Liese that’s a good question, why DO you confess to crimes you didn’t commit? Serious question on my part, because your story reminded me of a time in school when me and my best friend who sat next to each other in an important exam were called out for apparently cheating. I knew I didn’t but it was pretty threatening the whole thing. Anyway my parents were dragged into the school and I got such a fright when I saw them (very rare thing to happen) and the way they acted, as if I had done something wrong, the ground suddenly shifted for me and I thought ‘I must have cheated and didn’t know it’. It was only the head teacher telling me point blank that they knew I hadn’t cheated that stopped me from accepting, against my own knowledge, that I’d cheated. So I wonder what goes on when we accept having done things wrong automatically even when we know ourselves that we haven’t?

Also wanted to comment on Yaku’s message before last:

((( Yaku )))

So you’ve got this voice that gives you a hard time for asking for something unless it’s justified? Again, I can really relate to that. Not only does asking for something I want have to be justified in some way but actually wanting it has to be justified. That gets really overwhelming because of course deep down I know that a lot of the things I want I just want – like you’re saying with just wanting to feel connected, (and that’s not good enough) – I always know inside that whatever I want is only for me, because it’s something that would make me feel good or better or whatever – but boy I get not only the ‘that’s not good enough, that’s not justifiable in the real world’ but a whole harangue about how it’s bad and selfish and trivial and pathetic and and and… I expect you get the picture.

What do you think would happen if you came up with something you wanted, just because you want it (like, to feel connected) and asked for it giving that as a reason? I know you’re saying that’s precisely what’s not happening and is almost impossible, but in line with what your T is trying to get you do, maybe you could do it as a kind of ‘artificial’ exercise – lol there’s your justification even, that you’d be doing it for sound therapeutic reasons. How to trick yourself! (Not that tricking oneself ever works unfortunately, because self always knows what self is up to ) But it might just work, you never know.

Sorry Liese if I’ve sidetracked your thread for a bit, thought it might ring bells with others too though, about how difficult it is to ask for things that have no 'justification' other than that we want them.

LL

LL,

Good to see you posting. Wow, that's interesting that something similar happened to you as a child. I'm so glad for you that they knew you didn't cheat. Why we accept something so readily like that about ourselves? That's a good question.

Monte, I didn't get the sense at all that you were the justification police. I've just noticed with my T that things need a "clinical" reason with him. He's very cautious with me, making sure I understand the difference between love and caring. Oh god, I must really be a case, huh? I felt pretty normal and on top of myself until I started therapy. It's amazing how much therapy can screw you up. I'm too afraid to stop therapy despite the scariness sometimes because I don't really recognize who I am right now and I certainly wouldn't know how to put myself back together now that we've deconstructed me. Unfortunately, there is no new me yet.

xoxo

Liese

Hey Liese. I emailed my T about those barriers and she emailed back and said it would be interesting if we used those barriers as a determination of our progress.

WTF? Instead of listening to me and removing those barriers to make me feel comfortable - she is going to keep them there to *test* how I adjust to them! That isn't how I wanted this request to end up.

I am very sensitive to her comments lately - her email today filled me with anger and I am not sure why. I had just told her that I feel intense anger when I feel people don't understand me or are ignoring me. And she did the exact thing. I feel she is testing me. I am also annoyed that she isn't giving any of herself up - I feel that I am not in sync with her at the moment. Maybe she is feeling the pressure of my SU issues at the moment? I don't know.

Maybe also - I don't ask for what I need. I ask for it and my needs aren't met - so I get angry for myself for asking and for having to ask - and so therefore I don't ask again.

My t has asked what I need from her and I always say I don't know. She'll say how can I help you and I say I don't know. I think you are right when you say that you don't even know what you need or want. That's how I feel most of the time. I figure I've probably got everything that I need or that I'm supposed to have so why ask for more? I don't know, it does confuse me though. I too am so envious of people who know what they want.

Monte, thanks for saying that you see true caring in my T's caution. I just feel like a big bag of needs with holes all over. The needs are just flowing out those holes and T's jumping this way to get away from me and jumping that way to get away from me. I remember going to a psychic years ago and she told me that I have an odor (a bad one) only men can smell and she wanted to sell me a soap to bathe in that would get rid of the odor. It makes me sad that even back then, it was so obvious, at least to this woman, that I might be desperate or needy and therefore, she could take advantage of me. I hate that people see that about me but then again, can't control what people think, right?

Somedays, I'm sorry that your T didn't address what you said in a more helpful way. For me, it would feel as though now it's something both of you are watching and would make me feel even more sensitive. And knowing me, I would read into it and think, okay, so does progress mean that I ask to sit at the table? Or is progress feeling more comfortable sitting face to face like we've been. For what it's worth, it's okay, in my book, to feel uncomfortable because you are sitting too close and it's okay to need a little space. Just ask me, I'm a huge fan of space. Could you tell her you just don't want to draw attention to it all? That you just want to sit at the table?

Smiley, I am glad that you too are envious of people who know what their needs are and just take care of them. I keep thinking of a friend of mine I grew up with. She's just always very happily taking care of her life. When I used to visit her more often, she'll tell me, Liese, come with me here, I have to do this, say laundry or whatever. If the roles were reversed, I'd be sitting there and entertaining her and not taking care of what I needed, happy for the attention. I used to get really insulted but now see it as a good thing, that she's taking care of herself. And, she was never rude and she always very politely included me in whatever it was she was doing. I'm amazed that her brain was able to take care of what she had to take care of and talk to me at the same time. I'm always busy entertaining people.

xoxo

Liese