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I'm so frustrated after my session tonight but I feel a little better after writing my T an angry email. I always struggle to talk to my T. I feel ashamed and alone with my struggle. Last week my T told me he thought we were reenacting my childhood experience of having a lot of difficult painful feelings and being alone with them. Then on Monday he told me he thought we needed to talk more about my childhood and my memories. I told him I thought we were always talking about my childhood and he said indirectly. After the session I emailed him some of the things I've been struggling with talking about lately.

Tonight I go to my session and I start talking about how I am avoiding talking to my FOO right now. I have parents and 5 siblings. I don't call them as much as I used to and I share less with them. I told him it was because my FOO doesn't want to know how I really feel because they want me to be a certain way. For my parents that means they want me to be happy all the time. If my mother calls the first thing she says is "you sound tired, sick, distracted, out of sorts etc" but if I try and tell her why she cuts me off because she doesn't want to know and she wants me to be happy always. One of my sisters wants to talk regularly but only about superficial topics (at least to me), what I had for lunch, how cute the kids are, no problems, no emotions. Another sister likes to complain about things but doesn't believe there is anyway to change anything so she enjoys complaining about our parents and telling stories about our childhood showing how crazy our parents are but in a funny way so people laugh. Then she says "at least we'll be free when they die". She doesn't like it if I get to serious and stop laughing and talk about how much I hurt because then it is a problem. My brothers like to lecture and tell me what to do so they don't like when I disagree. I know how to get along with everyone but I don't want to spend the time and energy connecting with my family because they have no interest in hearing how I actually feel. I know that and I've made the choice to limit my contact but it is still painful and I'm really sad.

So I cried a lot tonight. I talked about how many things trigger my grief for what was missing in my family. My T acknowledged and reflected how I felt. In my email I told him I could tell if I was grieving in a healthy way or just wallowing in the pain because it has been going on for so long. He barely mentioned that except to say I guess you don't know whether this is grieving or wallowing which was reflecting what I said but he didn't give his opinion on whether the question had merit or any guidelines about it. The conversation just focused on how I was dealing with my FOO in the present with no discussion of the past. Then we lapsed into silence with my T occasionally telling me he knew it was sad and painful and me crying a lot.

I started to get frustrated that there was nothing else to say or do. I didn't know if I should tell him some memories or just cry. He kept looking at me. Near the end he asked me what I would say when I left (by email or leaving a message) which is a question we've started using to try and get at anything that is bothering me and I'm having trouble expressing because I usually do contact him after each session. I told him I felt frustrated because that was all and that I didn't know what the point of this kind of therapy was. He told me that the point was I was having a new experience of being sad with someone who was accepting of my feelings so I wasn't alone with them. I told him I realized that but it didn't seem like enough. He said it doesn't change that you are sad. I said I felt alone. He said I felt alone because I had trouble connecting with him when I felt sad. He said what was interfering with me feeling connected at that moment was because I started thinking that I didn't see the point of therapy. I said thanks for telling me I am doing it wrong. He said I don't think you are doing it on purpose or to be manipulative. I said I started doubting therapy because I felt alone.

I feel so discouraged. I have no idea how to do therapy. I don't know why he says "we should talk more about your childhood" and then focuses on the present in the next session. I feel like he blamed me because I didn't respond as he expected to him accepting my feelings. I feel a little better because I wrote him an angry email asking why it was always my fault when we didn't connect and telling him why I thought it might be his fault too.

I'm exhausted. I have no idea how therapy is supposed to work or what to do next or what it is supposed to look like.
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quote:
I don't know why he says "we should talk more about your childhood" and then focuses on the present in the next session.


(((incognito)))

The quote above stuck out to me but first I wanted to say I'm so sorry you are having a rough time both with your T and your FOO Frowner You deserve not to feel alone and I'm so sorry you do feel alone. Please know you are in my thoughts my dear.

I wonder... (referring to the quote above) if your T is trying not to activate you? That maybe if you don't bring up your past first he figures it is too painful and doesn't want to push? My T is very hands off as far as the topic of therapy, she may suggest things but only if I've thrown them out there or we've discussed them as things to do. Today I ran out of stuff to talk about and rather than go to a topic (I have LOTS I could process right now) T asked me if I wanted to draw. Which was kind of accepting I had nothing else to say and.. that could be interpreted a lot of ways (my T is tired of hearing me, my T can't think of anything, my T doesn't care, I'm boring my T, etc) but how I took it was.. my T didn't want to activate me on going to some other stuff I have going on and wants me to lead the process by whatever comes up. Have your T and you discussed how that works with him? My T and I have talked about pushing a LOT and she has out right said NO before, she eventually said she might push me a bit more with some emotional stuff but I know her overall opinion is she wants to let nature happen (and I feel like nature should include her DRIVING ME TO A DESTINATION SOMETIMES but her and I differ there).

Usually I consider the previous session a success if I show up for the next one. I don't know what it is supposed to look like and I went through a lot of growing pains with my T trying to get her to tell me. I also spent a lot of times feeling way worse after sessions than I did before I got there. 2x a week contact, medication, group therapy, a ton of phone calls, a T with strong consistency and another T to bounce stuff off of for about 1.5 years are what it took to get to the point I feel like I'm making progress or doing any work with my T Frowner I think this stuff just takes a long torturous time. Have you talked more with or seen your consult T? I can't say if it's a bad match with your T or not but maybe a break to work with consult T for a bit would help? There were times I felt like the only thing I could do to get along with T1 would be to quit, see someone, then go back to her and I almost did several times.

What has it been like for sessions you have felt good about with your t? I know there has to have been some - what did you do during those times, what did he do, how did you feel? Maybe there is some wisdom in the past you can bring to these sessions? Only an idea. I don't think either of you are doing anything wrong this stuff is just hard and I think even harder when we're in charge of leading but can't and don't know where we're going.. it takes a really slow long time of us to trust ourselves and our Ts.
thank you Cat. Your response has brought me to tears, of course I cry a lot so that may not be the best indicator of how much it meant to me. I haven't gone back to the consult T. I don't know if he was trying not to activate me. I'm afraid if he doesn't tell me where to go I'll never get anywhere except in a deeper bit of self-hate. Yes it would work better if I took charge but I don't. Yes I can't stay connected. Yes I get angry and blame him for things not working. You know the drill. I'm too screwed up to ever get better.

I normally see my T on Mondays and Wednesdays but this Monday is a holiday here and a day off of school on Friday so my T isn't working Friday or Monday and my next appointment is Wednesday so maybe he was trying to avoid activating me because we wouldn't get to follow up for a week. Maybe neither of us has a clue what we are doing. I don't know what made the sessions that felt good work. Maybe this weekend I'll spend some time trying to look back in my journals and see what I've written about good sessions.

thanks for listening
quote:
(and I feel like nature should include her DRIVING ME TO A DESTINATION SOMETIMES


..........................................


Usually I consider the previous session a success if I show up for the next one.


CAT, I don't know if you meant to be funny but you gave me the laugh of the night so thank you.

INCOGNITO,

This is totally an aside but I'm ust wondering out loud here, what was your birth order?

1. What struck me most is something that I think I do and that my T and I have been talking about lately and that is the issue of control.

I always think control is a bad thing. But my T thinks it's a good thing in this way. I want to be a certain way. I want to be sad or I want to talk about a certain topic. But T is talking about something else. Or we start out light and airy and I have fun chatting with T this way and hesitate to change the conversation. Or want T to take the lead. Because even though I complain about not getting what I want, I'm not sure I really WANT to take the lead because it is scary.

So, we don't go where I want to go and I blame T for not taking me there. He's doing what he's doing and I'm waiting for him to do what I want. And here's where the control issues come in. I HAVE to take control. These types of issues come up over and over again IRL.

It sounded like that's exactly what is going on with your siblings. You are on a different page altogether. You don't want to be light and airy with the sister who is light and airy. But you don't know how to say, "I am sorry. I'm not on the same page as you." KWIM?

Same with your brothers. You can take control by telling them to stop telling you what to do.

I hope I'm not sounding too preachy here but it's something my T and I have been talking about as of late and I saw some similarities.

2. The other thing that struck me is that I wonder if you need more empathy and attunement from him? I wonder if you need more help naming and labeling your feelings? I wonder if you need him to say, I'm so sorry you are so sad. I'm so sorry this is so hard for you. Almost like you need permission to feel this way.

Again, I am only saying this because it's the way I feel now. I have trouble IRL telling people when I'm really stressed and/or hurt and/or sad. If they don't seem to "sense" how I am feeling, I get scared and totally repress it.

It's hard being the one to break up the party when everyone else "seems" to be having a good time. "I'M SORRY TO BE THE KILLJOY HERE BUT I'M REALLY SAD AND SCARED AND I'M NOT ON THE SAME PAGE AS YOU."

COGS, I don't know if any of this relates but it all struck a chord with me.

Please forgive me if I came across too strong.

On the bright side, I do get the sense that you and your T are communicating better and that he is getting better at asking you important questions that get you thinking. I can't help but wonder how much his separation impacted his therapy with you? I don't know why I would say that but he's seems to have stepped up his game a little. Whether or not it is due to him coming out on the other side of his separation? Or if it's due to the fact that he knows you are going on some consults and he's taking a look at how he is interacting? Or both?

But, it does sound like the two of you are communcating better. Do you think so too?

HUGS,

Liese
((incognito)) I'm glad I could listen

quote:
I'm afraid if he doesn't tell me where to go I'll never get anywhere except in a deeper bit of self-hate. Yes it would work better if I took charge but I don't.


I've said almost this very thing to my T more than once (more than twice, more than twenty times!). Taking charge doesn't mean leading necessarily or that you have anyone following. His lack of forcing, pushing, or planning what you should talk about is giving you charge - you already have it so you don't need to take it or do anything with it but allow yourself to go where you go.

Sorry I had to edit the rest of this out because I feel super vulnerable.
Last edited by catalyst
((((COGS))))

I just wrote out this really long reply and then my computer decided to reconfigure itself and I lost everything.

That post was so longwinded anyway! Oh, hold on, I think I feel another one coming. LOL! Can't sleep tonight. I think the main point I was trying to make is that it may be that you have to pull away from your siblings just for now, just for the time being. It may not be a permanent loss for you. It might feel like a permanent loss but it may not be. That might just be the scary part, thinking that the loss is permanent.

I was thinking that because I see how much energy it takes away from me when I get triggered. But as I am learning to find my boundaries and assert them without dragging myself into the old dynamics of how I got there, it takes so much less emotional energy.

It sounds like this is a process that you have to go through in terms of figuring out who you are and who your siblings are and accepting yourself for who you are and accepting them for who they are. And trying not to feel bad or wrong or guilty because you are not like them. Because your approach to life is different than theirs. Because your unique experiences as a child were different than theirs. And clearly seeing that and feeling entitled to feel as sad or as bad as you want because it was sad and it was bad. And when you sort all that out, perhaps you might be able to relate to them in a way that doesn't take as much energy.

My sister has always been one of those people who thought about herself first. And I was always the giver trying to win her love. It never happened. She never loved me. Of course, I've gotten so hurt by her because of all the times she has taken advantage of me. As much as I wanted to win her love, I also really hated her for not loving me. We have had a difficult relationship. Even as recent as a year ago, she tried to take advantage of me and I let her because once again, I was trying to win her love. But I caught myself soon after it happened and asserted myself in a way that I never had before. Now she is living in my basement temporarily and I can truly see her for who she is: she is someone who has her own little engine. She's always got plans and things to do and places to go and she's going to do them and not let anyone get in her way. She doesn't seem to care TOO much about anyone else's feelings, even her childrens unfortunately. It's just the way she is. I take care of myself first now. (Thank you therapy!) And she doesn't hurt me anymore. I can interact with her actually in a way that is more loving. She'd been living in her car (don't ask) and I couldn't tolerate that so I offered her a spot in my basement. But I just don't get dragged into her stuff anymore. I'm learning where to draw the emotional lines. If she wants to talk (every night! always!) and I am tired, I just go to bed. I can't help her if she's lonely. I can give her a place to sleep. I have too many other people who need me right now. (My kids.) She can go to therapy if she really wants undivided attention.

I don't know what will happen at the end of the day but I'm hoping that our relationship might evolve into a more loving relationship. That probably won't happen since she is so self-centered but for the first time ever with her, I feel self-respect for taking care of myself first. And seeing that the relationship isn't falling apart even though I am not catering to her needs anymore.

Sorry for the digression. That was an interesting comment that T made that you've been talking about your childhood indirectly. Did you ask him what he meant by that? That's one of those things I would miss in a session but might reflect on later and say, hey, why didn't I follow up on that? I kind of have a feeling about what the meaning was behind it but can't quite verbalize it.

"I feel a little better because I wrote him an angry email asking why it was always my fault when we didn't connect and telling him why I thought it might be his fault too. :

I think this is awesome. I've started to do this with my T and I don't know yet what the positive consequences are going to be but I do know that in the past I was afraid to tell him what I needed from him because I felt it would come across as a criticism or that I would say it like a criticism or that he would get angry with me for being honest about how I feel and/or withdraw. So far, things haven't fallen apart. I was SOOOO afraid they would but they haven't.

And T told me that now this is a relationship. So, I think this is great. Maybe you are doing the work you need to do. Telling him what you need from him. It just doesn't feel so good because there are reasons why we didn't do it in the past that usually involved pain or shame or humiliation. But maybe as we get better at sorting through the MUCK and seeing what feelings are from the past and which ones are from the present, maybe it gets better.

I think I had an epiphany this week and that was that I'm finally clearly seeing (I THINK) where all my stuff is coming from and its roots in the past. And when I'm doing what I used to do and how and when to pull back so I don't feel like SH*T about myself. But it doesn't take the pain away. And it doesn't take the fear away of trying something new. For example, I just started working at this new office. For a couple of weeks I was by myself in new space he rented. That was okay because I was really nervous. But then after a while I started to think that I needed to get to know the other people or else the isolation would start to freak me out. Well, most of the others are a bit younger than I am. And I was trying to connect with them but couldn't. And I went into my usual, OMG, no one likes me. But then I stepped back and was able to see that they WERE quite a bit younger than me and in a different stage in life. So I'm just accepting for now that I can't connect with them on any REAL emotional level or at least on the level that I used to try to connect with people. That it will all have to be superficial and I will have to try to find a way to be okay with that and not freak out. I don't know how I'm going to do it yet but I'm going to try.

I don't know any other way to describe it than to say that I feel like I'm finally waking up from a really bad nightmare that lasted for 48 years.

But maybe a part of that is just an acceptance that you are sad and that you don't have to be on the same page as your siblings and that's okay. It is what it is. You are who you are. You can be that rock floating down the river. You might have to go it alone without your siblings for a while but maybe only a little while till you get your stuff sorted from their stuff. And the relationships will reconfigure in a newer, healthier, hopefully more enriching way for you. Smiler

I know the pain really stinks and I have a hard time just "being" with it when it feels like I'm the only one down there in that stinkhole. I've tried to avoid that pain my whole life because, well, pain isn't very attractive. But it's where I am right now and I have to love myself or at least try to regardless of where I am at. So, I'm not the life of the party nor will I ever be. I'm trying to have a bit of faith that if I sit with the pain for now and stop trying to fight the pain, that I will come out on the other side eventually. And I hope that you will too.

xoxooxxoxo

Liese
Hey COGS AND CAT,

I just had another thought. Not sure if you guys do this too but I was thinking about how hard I work to connect with my T and make the relationship work, not UNLIKE all my other relationships. Like with my sister.

What would happen if I just sat back in therapy and let my T try to connect with me? What if I let him do all the work for once? Maybe I'll try that tomorrow. Has anyone tried that?



Liese
I don't have much to add, but this part struck me:

quote:
Then we lapsed into silence with my T occasionally telling me he knew it was sad and painful and me crying a lot.

I started to get frustrated that there was nothing else to say or do.


Sometimes just feeling your feelings IS the work of therapy. And there is no need to do or say anything else...just feel what you feel. I used to think that you processed feelings by thinking about them or discussing them, but more and more I'm realizing that feelings are processed by feeling them.

Hope things become more clear to you.
Thanks for the story Cat. It is funny because I do relate a lot to your experiences. The story about the creatures of river is really interesting. I wish my T would tell me more stories. I wish he would tell me something about how therapy should work. I'm afraid to let go of my idea of how things should go in therapy. when I try to define how I think therapy should go I want it to hurt less and I want some encouragement and support while it hurts. When I go on vacation I am one of those people who likes to plan all the places and things to do. Do you go with the flow on vacation?

Liese, I'm sorry you lost your long post but I appreciate the one that you posted. I am sorry that your sister and you have such a strained relationship. I think it is even more amazing that you are willing to let her live in your basement. I hope your relationship does improve. I do think I'm communicating with my T better unfortunately for T what I am communicating is my frustration and unhappiness with the process. I would love to hear what happens if you stop working so hard with T and let him work to connect with you.

Alpaca, thanks for your support. I definitely are feeling all my feelings more in therapy.
quote:
Do you go with the flow on vacation?


I know it's scary to let go of 'shoulds' we have them for very good reasons - to keep us safe. And for vacation actually I really don't like structure I think because I have so much structure in 'real life' and what I do at work that on vacation as long as I know I'll be getting regularly fed I don't really mind. It stresses me out if I'm planning because I prepare for every conceivable scenario so it's better when stuff sneaks up on me and I can just go with it if it works or not go if it doesn't work. I'm wracking my brain to think of a trip I've ever structured myself and there haven't been any that come to mind.
Liese, I forgot to tell you I'm the fifth of sixth children but since my parents had the first four kids in a 7year span and then waited 5 years before having me some people say that in some ways I was the oldest child of my parents second family.

I forgot to update you on today. My T responded to my email by telling me he regretted bringing up how my thoughts caused me to feel like I was alone because we didn't have time to process it and he understood it sounded like he was blaming me. Then he told me he would try and call during his lunch and he did. We spoke for over 10 min (which is unusual) and I managed to express some of my anger. I didn't feel any better after the phone call but tonight I am feeling like I managed to express myself. I also have been thinking a lot about the comments I received here. Unfortunately I don't see T for a week but I'm trying to calm my thoughts and remember I can go back and try again.
quote:
Originally posted by Liese:


What would happen if I just sat back in therapy and let my T try to connect with me? What if I let him do all the work for once? Maybe I'll try that tomorrow. Has anyone tried that?



Liese


I have tried and my T did try and connect with me but only cos she knew I wasn't being my normal self at all. I was distant, uncomfortable, and tight lipped. Usually I'm so relaxed and set the pace for the entire session. That time she had to force me to talk cos when she would ask me something I was very short with her so she had to start asking more in depth questions instead of me leading the way.

As far as how a good session goes for me, it's not a good one unless I cry. I've spent pretty much my entire life holding everything inside and now, it's pretty difficult when I don't let it all out. If I don't let out most of my emotions with her, then I'll feel crappy and kick myself for not telling her this or that, and then I feel even more anxious and anxiety ridden, and it's just another unnecessary stress factor for me. I finally got it through my thick skull that she's there for me for a reason and it's kind of silly to not take advantage of that.

I hope your relationship with your T gets better! Thinking of you Cogs! Hugs!
(((((COGS)))))

I hope you don't mind I call you that. It reminds me of that adorable Cogsworth from Beauty and the Beast. If you don't like the nickname, just let me know.

Even though we have never ever gotten along, the dynamic in my family was that no matter what anyone did to me, (or anyone) they were family and we had to remain tight. I was a pretty nice kid (well, that's my side of things) but what that meant, and the message was drilled in constantly even up until recently, was that no matter what either my brother or sister did, I was not allowed NOT to love them. I don't know if that makes sense to you and or to anyone. Sometimes I am so amazed at how brainwashed I was by all that and how much I let it hurt me.

My sister hasn't been mean to me in about 30 years and last year when she tried to take advantage of my professional training, she was acting like the desperate woman that she was at the time. My problem then was that I was still trying to get her to love me and felt I couldn't say no. I did, however, protect myself in the end and realized that she is someone whose life was spinning out of control.


It might sound like I'm being a giver this time too because I am letting my sister live with me but the truth is this time I am giving from a position of strength. I am not trying to win her love. She was living in her car and it was the right thing to do. She owns a house. Unfortunately, it's 12 hours away from her job right now. So, she is seeking to be independent.

My point in telling you that is that I am noticing a difference in how I am interacting with her. We have been talking a lot about the past (her mainly) and for the first time ever, I decided to tell her how mean she was to me. All she said was, "oh, really, was I?" I just don't cater to her anymore like I used to and it has completely changed the dynamic in our relationship. I don't see her the same way I used to.


I don't mean to drone on about me but even though my relationship with my sister is different than your relationship with your siblings, maybe at some point you will be able to change the way you relate to each them and it won't even be that hard. It is so effortless for me now. I just simply take care of myself first. She's got a spot in my basement and that's all I can give her right now. I actually do feel more empathy for her than ever because I am realizing that my mother never really bonded with her and blantantly favors my brother over her. It is very painful to see. So, instead of seeing her as the villain that I used to, I see her as someone who has really been neglected and does what she does because, well, anyone would feel that way if they were in her shoes.

I don't feel that same sense of anger towards her that I used to. I have already let go of the relationship and grieved that I just don't have a sister that I am close to or have things in common with.

It's not actually such a bad spot to be in. I'm viewing the relationships more realistically from an adult point of view. It FEELS so much healthier actually.

And, so my long-winded point is that even though you are really sad that you feel like you are losing your family, you are so unhappy with the way the relationships are right now that why would they be worth preserving in that form? And maybe when you get to the other side, you can actually improve them and then you might have an even stronger bond than you do now? Maybe you just have to let go of old roles but not the relationships?

IDK. Just throwing that out there. I was sad for a long time too about my siblings but I really think I've gotten to the other side and moved on and it's a really powerful place for me to be in.

Just wanted to offer you some hope that it might not be as grim as you think on the other side.

BTW, so glad you are expressing yourself better with T. And he was actually very attune with you and empathic. You are both changing together.

Did I ask you about his separation and if you think it might have had anything to do with your therapy languishing? That maybe he just wasn't in a good place but he's in a better place now? Or maybe just that he knows that you've gone on some consults? I can't remember if I wrote that on that post that got lost. Just a thought in my mind as he has been going through a rough time personally.

SO GLAD YOU TALKED TO HIM >>>

Hug two

Liese

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