(((Cogs)))

I think the relationship talks may feel unresolved for a long time... my suspicion is it will take time and experience. What do you think? I know to talk to that little and implicit parts of me it took T just always being there.. the same before I got it. All conversation felt/feels unresolved when I don't feel that strong alliance and connectedness... I know things are painful and I'm sorry to speculate it's as much an issue about talking about it as painfully slow time to pass also. Is there one conversation that could fix all the panic? I would wish so... But don't think so

I hope you can go to the session he offered. That action probably says a lot to your unconscious - I know it has for me. Last session T let me know that a session I had thought we scheduled and set was now newly "taken". I reacted well at session... but inside I could feel a lot of stirred emotions and separation anxiety. We probably had miscommunication but even something so "small" put a year of closeness in question. It will get better I just mean... Actions are so much a part of it too and despite what T would say she thinks of me... It is all warped and untrue sometimes

Unsure if any of that fits or helps...

As far as the question about resolution... Soanu things are up in the air for me too. T has said..: processing or therapy is repetitive. It often takes a couple of passes, if not hundreds depending on the issue. I have unresolved "things" or events or daily issues resolved but the emotion driving my reactions to those things? No... So that lingering stuff keeps crawling up over and over.

Resolved or the start to resolution feels like less intensity about something - the "big stuff" like a relationship - of course has and will continue to take a long time as it's a core part of how I'm healing... Does hey maken any sense?

Hi Cogs,

I'm sorry you are feeling so stuck in your therapy. You have asked a really good question that I don't think I can answer. I saw my T this week for the first time after getting out of the PHP program and she wanted to know what I wanted to do next. I'm not sure. What does healed look like? Feel like?

My therapist keeps reiterating to me that I am in control. I don't think there would be anything wrong with taking a month or two break from therapy. Maybe see if you are happier and doing better without a weekly appointment. That would give you some information about whether you should continue in therapy. And might help you know if this therapist is really the right person for you right now.

When my therapist was pushing for me to accept inpatient treatment for my ED she said she has had alot of clients do therapy intensives for different reasons. She recommends some couples weekend retreats often. She said it is impossible for people to go through an intensive type program and not have something shift in their thinking/feelings about a situation. I've looked on google and there are a lot of different therapy retreats. You may be able to find an experience that would let you process things to resolution. Maybe if you could even get some internal movement on one issue you may become more hopeful about others.

Good Luck,

Jillann

(((Cogs))) It's a process with no end point. The more we can open up and talk about our feelings and have them understood, the more we can learn about the things we believe and why we do what we do and learn to think another way. as we do we learn to handle our reactions: the shame, the wrong beliefs, the lies we were taught by abuse much more quickly.

So my feelings of worthlessness, or shame or being too needy etc can still be triggered, but now it is so much easier to recognize when that is happening, reject it as not the truth and move on. So instead of being frozen and crippled by these feelings (which I was for much of my life) I can move past them and live more fully. I know I will get triggered but I no longer need to be scared of that, because I know I can manage and move through the feelings that come up.

There's a great post on Monkeytraps I think might be helpful: Spiral (Really geeky aside, 'cause it's been bugging me, this should be "Helix" which is a three dimensional shape, a spiral is two-dimensional. Oh dear, I need a life!)

And Cogs I want to offer a gentle observation, which I know happened with me, but may be way off base for you, so you decide whether it speaks to your situation or not.

You said:

quote:

There are so many things that I wish I could talk to T about particularly things that involve our relationship and how I feel about him and what I think he feels or thinks about me. I've started to have those conversations (which were impossible to imagine for a long time) but T doesn't respond in a way I can understand, he seems to have less and less to say if I talk about our relationship which I think means he doesn't want to talk about it and I shut down.

There are a lot of feelings expressed here which may or may not be a good reflection of the truth. I often had feelings that felt true and made assumptions about how other people were feeling that I was absolutely sure were the truth but turned out to be wrong. You are interpreting your T's reactions to mean that he doesn't want to talk about it (which totally fits your life experience) but you are assuming that. The only way to know if it is true is by asking him.

All that said Cogs, I know you have been working really hard for a long time and have been feeling stuck and you sound incredibly frustrated. I am sorry for the pain you are in.

AG

Hi!

My advice is write a list of all things you wished you would have said and all the conversations you feel are incomplete, review the list decide you need talk about the common themes you want to discuss with M or this there are topics you feel the detials are the most important. Maybe bring the list in with you to the next session
What you said about wondering if the issues in the relationship is you or not given the similarities in your other relationship might be important topic go discuss with M, since therapy is an intense focused relationship that mirrors other relationship so you can build healthy relationships with others outside therapy. Because of the intensity of therapy sometimes people can get trapped in this cycle of fearing your therapist reaction to things, but just going for it in therapy is where the growth happens. I mean your paying for therapy possibility out of pocket so get your moneys worth everytime, i mean the nice thing about the rules of therapy is, if your therapy is if you show your therapist a part of you you feel bad or ashamed about, its only between you too, he or she can't gossip about it or anything, they can even acknowledge you in pubic unless you acknowledge the therapist first so its safe say all the things you wished you could say.

Also most therapists see therapists themselves so its possible M does too, with all the insecurities of the theraputic relationship,
I hope this was somewhat helpful. And it wasnt my intent to offend ....if i did.

Thank you Pengs, Cat, Jillann, AG, and cherrymittens for your thoughts and support. I did go to the session this morning and I found it helpful. Instead of responding individually I would like to talk a little bit more about what triggered me to quit to see how it fits with my concept of resolution and some of your comments. It will be long so I understand if you don't want to read the details.

Lately I've been managing the day to day things in my life better and not feeling so overwhelmed by parenting or dealing with my own family which is progress but I find my relationship with my T one of the most difficult things in my life right now. I leave sessions feeling like I didn't say enough or T didn't understand or I want something I can't describe from T and I've missed the connection I was looking for. I can't imagine not seeing T for a month or two, Jillann, even though I can understand it might be helpful. I really enjoy the few days between sessions now but I like knowing when my session will be.

A couple of weeks ago I went away with my daughter to a competition and had to miss a couple of sessions. I usually see T on Monday's and Wednesday's and I arranged the trip so I left on a Tuesday and returned 8 days later in time for my Wednesday night session. I didn't miss my sessions while I was away but on the day I flew home the plane was delayed and I started to feel anxious about missing my session. I agonized over calling and cancelling 6 hours before my session because I worried if I cancelled and then I made it there in time I would regret not seeing T. I landed in time but my luggage took almost an hour to be unloaded and I spent most of that time watching the clock tick and getting more and more upset. I called T and told him I was at the airport and couldn't make it and he told me he had a cancellation for Friday afternoon if I wanted it. So even though I didn't see T on the Wednesday night I had a session booked for Friday so I should have felt better but I didn't. I felt stupid for not cancelling sooner, for planning a return that didn't give me a big enough cushion. Mostly I didn't understand why it was bothering me so much when I didn't have anything I really needed to talk about with T. I want a break from therapy and then when I get one I'm upset by it.

My husband and I had been hashing out an issue before my trip (with our marriage T) and the night I came home we started fighting again. I wrote T telling him I felt miserable, was fighting with my husband and was upset I missed the session. He responded Thursday morning say he was sorry things were so difficult but he was glad we could have a session on Friday and we would talk more then. I wrote back saying I was glad for the Friday session too but I was also angry and frustrated that I couldn't talk to him sooner. During the Friday session neither T nor I mentioned my email describing my anger and frustration and I was bothered by that. I feel like I shouldn't be angry because it was no one's fault I couldn't make my session and I felt like it was one of those relationship things that T doesn't respond to.

Cat, you made a lot of sense but I've been seeing T for over 5 years and I'm starting to think I can't learn from time and experience's with T or I would have by now. I understand about having to revisit issues and the helix theory of therapy but when I return to an issue I feel like I haven't made any progress. Sometimes I think I'm working hard but not productively but I don't know why.

Today's session started out with us discussing my feeling that therapy wasn't working and that there were things we didn't discuss and I was afraid we never would. T told me, again, that we don't have to discuss every incident or occurrence and that there are a lot of different ways to get at the same feelings and concerns. I told him I thought he avoided conversations about our relationship or how I felt about him but I understood I might be projecting my own discomfort on him. He didn't say anything in response. Only later did I realize I didn't ask him the question "are you avoiding or uncomfortable with relationship conversations?" and instead I brought it up hoping he would answer it like a question and I supplied the explanation for why I feel this way so he didn't have to do anything. Argh!

Eventually T said we could discuss the truism of not getting to talk about everything or how therapy worked but it would be better if I could talk about what I thought we avoided since I came back. Then I said I don't know exactly what it is I just feel like we are missing something. I told him I was really upset I missed the Wednesday night session and I felt like I was too upset. He asked what the right amount of upset was and I said I don't know but less than my upset. He told me he thought I was upset I was dependent on him while at the same time claiming to understand that I was. He also said he thought being upset about missing the session was to be expected and appropriate. I said it was stupid to be upset about things beyond my control (like airplanes and luggage). He said it was human and people get upset about all kinds of things like the weather this winter.

Finally I told him that my email telling him I was angry and frustrated was unfair and I was afraid it offended him. He said it didn't upset him. I said you wouldn't tell me if it did and he disagreed. He said he would say something if he thought I had been unfair. I said it was unfair. He said you are allowed to be angry that you missed your session. I said but I was angry at you not just at the airplane and circumstances. It was personal. I was angry you couldn't see me sooner. That didn't bother him either. Then the session ended.

Cherrymittens I think your advice about writing down the things that feel unsaid and looking for the themes is a good one. I understand a lot of the themes already. It is talking about them that is so difficult. I think T doesn't really understand how much I depend on him or how I feel about him and if he did it would upset him. Of course my proof that he doesn't really understand my feelings is that he hasn't gotten upset and pulled away from me so it a circular argument for me. I should tell him so he understands how I feel, but then he will leave so instead I am afraid that he will find out and leave, and eventually I just want to quit before he finds out how I feel and leaves.

I think I spent the last few days/sessions playing out a very well-worn scenario with T.

Hi Cogs,

Just wanted to let you know that I felt like that for a long time, that I left therapy hanging with something unresolved. Actually for most of my six years until just these past 2 sessions. After I left the two sessions before that, there were things that were said during the session that I felt were just hanging out there and I was worried about how T felt about them so I sent a followup email right after both sessions. These past two sessions, however, I was able to realize just what it was that I needed to know before I left and asked T right then and there and felt very resolved when I left both sessions.

There was something you said, though, that has given me a deeper insight into why I always felt so unresolved after each session and why you might feel that way as well. I think it has to do with trust.

quote:

Of course my proof that he doesn't really understand my feelings is that he hasn't gotten upset and pulled away from me so it a circular argument for me. I should tell him so he understands how I feel, but then he will leave so instead I am afraid that he will find out and leave, and eventually I just want to quit before he finds out how I feel and leaves.

Trust in the relationship. Trust that he won't leave you. Trust that he accepts you just the way you are. I highly doubt that he is not aware of the depth of your dependency upon him or your feelings for him. He really has been so steady and reliable. I think as you continue to dig up these feelings of fear of abandonment and verbalize and see that he is not going to leave you, eventually you will believe it.

That is exactly, I think, how it played out for me. I finally showed T my very worst side. I felt as though he wouldn't be able to help me unless I really showed him how crazy as was. I was absolutely convinced he was going to terminate me after that but he didn't.

I think the feelings of something being unresolved is in itself our form of attachment. The insecurity is all I know and has kept me company all these years in some perverse kind of way. When have YOU been able to turn your attention away from a particular relationship without worrying that the person you are turning away from won't be there when you turn back? That is something that for me has been very hard to do and isn't that exactly what we have to do?

In order to be present with our kids, our partners, at work, etc., we have to let go of our T's on an emotional level just for a bit but that was always too threatening in the past. The unresolved part keeps up connected to them because we don't know how to stay connected to our T's in a more healthy way.

I have finally come to the conclusion that T is there for me (I think) and the sense of things being unresolved has finally resolved or has seemed to so I think there is a connection. Does that make sense?

If it helps cogs - the last 2 years I've had therapy a minimum of 3x a week usually 4 plus multiple points of phone 'quick check in' during the week. Before that it was 2 days of therapy a week... And for a year of that a 7hr/wk IOP and I've had to go to the hospital 3 times within the time with my T and I'm still not there with the relationship. It really does take a bloody long time - my amount of therapy hours has been at least 15 years of weekly therapy - lots of people here have been in for longer and still and may always in some part struggle too. I didn't mean to sound dismissive of how hard and long you e already invested we put such right deadlines and shoulds on things that causes deep wounds in childhood at very critical development stages that literally altered the brain and nervous system - it's like being emotionally paralyzed and somehow learning to walk again

Liese I have spent days thinking about this

quote:

I think the feelings of something being unresolved is in itself our form of attachment. The insecurity is all I know and has kept me company all these years in some perverse kind of way.

It feels uncomfortably true and that makes it hard to talk about. Today during my session my T and I discussed how I felt like it is irrational that I was angry he couldn't see me sooner when I had to cancel my session. T told me he could understand that I might feel that if he cared more then he would have been able to see me sooner. I agreed that is how I felt and then I became so upset I couldn't talk. Everytime I tried to explain how awful I am for feeling that way I cry so hard I couldn't talk. It is weird how even something that you agree with and kind of knew can kick you in stomach so hard that you feel breathless with it.

Cat, it is so hard to realize that I am so damaged that it is taking years to recover. I guess I would rather blame myself as a failure in therapy. I also worry there isn't enough time for me to make progress which has added pressure to me.

Thank you both for sharing your own experiences.

((cogs))

I'm glad at least today you were able to talk about being angry with your T, and about where that was coming from. It sounds like it was really triggering though

I can relate on feeling like I never have enough time… I try to blame it on my general disposition toward impatience. The path of least resistance is to blame ourselves just as is done growing up.. trying to make sense of why the world is the way it is and knowing we must have made it that way, through inherent badness somehow (it's not true).

I'd be a lot happier if therapy had some sort of step by step or chart that I could check things off of, so I would know exactly how far I am away from the end… I've been feeling like my T no longer wants to see me and that I am a waste of time and not progressing and… just can't do what I need to do to process. So… I can't say I know exactly what you're feeling but I can say I understand… and I've dug myself quite a hole today and if you'd like to come hide in it with me (or dig from your adjacent hiding place) we can eat gummy worms.

Did anything else come of session today? Feeling better/worse/same? Did you write an email?

((((COGS))))

I'm sorry you were triggered by what I wrote. Of course, my hope was that it would provide some comfort that it was coming from a place of survival.

((((COGS))))

I know it doesn't always feel like it, but you are doing amazing work. For a lot of us here, this stuff is just so deeply entrenched in the brain that it takes a long time to get to and a long time to fix. You are not alone in terms of the length of time of the healing process. The length of time doesn't matter. What matters is commitment. You are committed to your healing. I know you will get there.

Hi Miss Incognito,
I am hearing from you a longing for connection with your T. It frustrates me that he cannot see that. I see your trying to tell him what you need and want. I think it is very important for there to be a mutual love between client and therapist in order to develop healthy self esteem and self love. T's are not really taught this in school though they should be. That's what my T told me. It took a long time for me and my T to get to a place of love and interpersonal intimacy. Things with us didn't work until I went to a way more experienced T who understands and who encouraged me to make my T into what I need. She gave me strength to believe in my inner longings as guides to develop the relationship with my T. She empowered me and I felt so much better and understood. She knows my T and spoke to him for me. I knew he got the message as the next session he was so much more available and open to me and willing to try what i wanted to try. Stuff like his reading a story to me. I talk about my feelings about the story and he shares his. I love that he shares his feelings too. I feel a lot better and so does he. He told me that I have helped him. This took two years of dealing with my dissatisfaction with therapy. If he didn't change, I would have had to find another T. I still have a way to go in building my self-love, self-worth and esteem and I'm not sure how to do it. I use the mother/infant relationship as my model. I know I can't completely have the beautiful life giving bond of baby and parent but I expect to get as close as possible without breaking any boundaries.
I don't know how you will take this but this is my experience and I hope it might empower you to get some needs met! I am also on antidepressants. I can't take this once a week 45 minutes thing. It is not enough. Meds make it more tolerable. Plus group therapy. thanks for listening!

I am exhausted in part because I had another session today talking about my anger at not being able to see him sooner after my trip, my disgust at my neediness, how irrational and unreasonable my feelings are, and how awful I am. T talked about why I thought I was awful and how it related to my childhood and my parents punishing me for needing them. He talked about being human and everyone have needs and feelings that aren't rational. I started to feel like we aren't speaking the same language because I am overwhelmed with shame and he is completely casual about it. He tried asking me how I would feel if someone else was doing what I did, or if I felt responsible when I couldn't meet someone else's needs and the answer is pretty much. It was hard to talk and I suspect I will be processing the conversation for a few days.

Liese, when I said I had thought a lot about your comment I didn't mean I felt triggered. It is a very interesting idea both about how I feel now and how I may have felt as a child. Thank you for your hugs and support. I'm glad to hear that you have felt resolved when you left your last couple of sessions.

Cat, I also wish there was a chart or organized set of lessons, even a path that I can see in the distance. I spend so much time in therapy feelings like I am flailing around in the dark hoping to randomly hit the light or something I need. I guess the best thing that came out of my sessions this week is that I am not feeling like the only thing I can do is quit. T and I are talking about important, painful stuff and he is there. I always write an email after sessions, unfortunately T is going away for a long weekend so I'm trying to decide if I should send tonight's email to his office or his mobile.

hi peaches, thank you for letting me know what you hear in my posts. I agree that I am longing for connection. I think it is great that you and T have worked together to develop a relationship of authentic love and intimacy. It sounds very healing. I am taking an antidepressant but I haven't tried group therapy. I am unsure about what kind of things I would like to try to build connection. I feel a kind of unspecified longing and I'm not sure what would help. I hope you will share more about your therapy.

((((cogs)))) just want to say that it really sounds to me like you are going through alot of the same stuff i am. i always feel as though there is something i want/need to talk with T about, especially as it pertains to our relationship, but i don't know exactly what it is i expect or what exactly it is i need to say or experience with him. it's very confusing, and wanted to say also that the quote from Leise is very spot on and something i will be pondering over the next few days. session with T coming up on Wednesday, nearly two months since i've seen him. too f*cking long if you ask me.

anyway, good luck in your conversations. i've been following your story as you seem to be dealing with alot of the same stuff as i am. strength to you