MTF,

Of course you're scared, this is not easy stuff to talk about. But you're doing the right thing to address something that is bothering you. Since you asked, I'm going to be pretty specific. I would, as much as possible, talk about you: your feelings, your reactions, the beliefs that get kicked up etc etc. So don't accuse her of anything, just talk about you. I've written an example of how you might be able to say it. I'm pulling for you!

"I need to talk to you about something that has me very scared. I feel like if I address it, it's going to cause a major rupture. But I also know its important to face problems head on so we can work them through.

I have been feeling upset about how much time has been spent in my sessions talking about your life. When you spend a lot of time chatting about your life, I feel unimportant, as if I don't matter, even though this is my therapy. It can also be painful to hear so much about your life as I struggle with wanting to be part of your life in that way but know I can't. I am not sure what your intention is by discussing your personal life and would like to discuss that as well as how I am reacting to it."

AG

MTF, there's nothing I can add to what's already been said. Just try to be was honest and upfront as you can. ((((hugs)))) Please let us know how it goes.

MTF I think you got some good advice on this thread. I do understand how upsetting it can be when you have already dealt with defensiveness in a T and when you are afraid to rupture the relationship by doing what you are supposed to do in therapy, which is address issues in the relationship. It can be very scary when T has been inconsistent in her reactions to your addressing issues that are bothering you and preventing you from getting the most from the therapy.

But if you don't address them, they fester and fog and contaminate the therapy space and you won't heal. So it has to be done. I wish the best for you and I will be thinking of you tomorrow. Please let us know how it all goes.

Don't forget to breathe and stay calm and focused. Write things down if you feel you will not be able to remember what needs to be said.

Good luck
Hugs
TN

((((((((((((MTF)))))))))))))

I agree with everything everyone else has already said. I can so very well understand why this is so scary for you, BUT I completely think you are right to bring it up. I really love the wording AG wrote, and I hope it helps tomorrow. I'm pulling for you, too. I hope your T is able to respond the way xoxo's did.

Many hugs,
SG

(((((MTF))))))

Just wanted to wish you luck tomorrow. Is it possible to try to control the conversation or is she so far gone that you absolutely cannot get a word in edgewise? Are you able to change the subject when she starts to talk about herself and say, I really wanted to talk about X right now? I do that with my T even if he is talking about me and it is something I don't want to talk about. He is always accommodating. I actually think he likes to see me take control of the conversation and not let it run all over the place. It was hard to do the first time but has gotten easier because he was not defensive about it. Now, if he got defensive, that would be another story.

Good luck!

xoxo

Liese

(((MTF)))

I hope it goes well and you find the courage to say what you need to say. I tried therapy 13 years ago and had a T who shared too much about herself and in addition asked me too many personal questions - nothing to do with why I was there. She then turned around 6 weeks later and said she couldn't see me anymore because our differences and beliefs in life "worried" her. It was devastating. It prevented me from entering therapy again for so long and it still causes me distrust of my current T. I hope your honesty is accepted and you and your T can continue working at your comfort level.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and support.

I was able to actually look at my T and tell her what was bothering me. I don't know what I said, as I was really nervous, but I did manage to communicate to her that her personal stuff was bothering me. She said that she thought she was giving me what I wanted, which is what I think my cyber snooping communicated to her, plus some other written stuff I've given her. She said she also does it to help me see that I'm not the only one with issues in certain areas, that by sharing personal triumphs with me I can see that it is possible to change and overcome my schemas. I told her that stuff was fine, but that is was the details about her grandchildren, children, spouse, etc. that were hard for me. I asked her if that made sense and she said it did. Then she promised me that her personal stuff won't come into my sessions ever again.

Now I feel angry at myself for saying anything to her, and angry at her for promising me something that I worry she won't be able to hold to. I am torn between wishing I was part of my T's personal life, and knowing that's not what I'm in therapy for. It's so hard and so painful. Did I do the right thing? She wasn't defensive, and I managed to talk about that, too. She said she was frustrated and feeling like I haven't been giving the therapy much of an effort. I told her she is right. I am frustrated with myself, and I'm sure it's hard to try to push a patient along gently, only to find that they really aren't doing the work. She again mentioned that maybe we're not a good match. I just sat there sort of shut down.

Anyway, I feel awful tonight. Part of me wishes I hadn't said anything about my T's personal talk. Another part is relieved, and yet another is scared that T will disappoint me in the future. She shouldn't have promised me she wouldn't do it. That's a tall order for her.

Thanks again everyone for your support. It's after midnight here and I need to get to bed.

MTF

(((MTF)))

Maybe getting the courage to communicate what you did WAS the work you needed to be doing.

Hi MTF... I know this was really hard for you and now you end up worrying that your T will not be able to keep her end of the bargain. That's a tough place to be because we need to be able to have a T who is consistent and who WE do not have to worry about and take care of.

I think she was wrong to say that she was giving you want you wanted by going off into details of her personal life. A T needs to provide what you need to heal and grow but not to just give you whatever you think you need to feel better. It's all about boundaries and as you probably know, I think your T has sloppy ones which end up hurting you.

I know she wants to give you hope and show you what is possible to achieve but she could have used anonymous examples of what has worked with other patients of hers and not go into her own personal life details, especially since she knows that you very much long to be a part of her personal life. It was actually hurtful to you.

As you know I am a believer in psychodynamic therapy for those with childhood abuse, neglect and trauma or attachment injury and she wants you to do schema therapy via workbook which I think is all CBT based. I'm not sure this is helpful to you and it seems that you are left alone to do this workbook and then you don't discuss it in therapy sessions. I cannot imagine having to basically heal myself alone. Especially, if I find certain things triggering within the workbook. I would end up avoiding it and maybe this is why you are having a lack of enthusiasm for doing the work book. When we have interpersonal hurts and insecure attachment, we have a much better chance to heal that with a corrective interpersonal relationship with an attachment figure. TWO people who are willing to explore the relationship and are willing to deal with the intimacy that comes with it.

I am sorry you are hurting and that your T's comment about not being a good match have you shut down (in fear, I imagine) and that you are struggling in therapy. I wish I could do something to make your T understand what you really need.

Maya Angelou once said something that I have been trying to keep in mind. "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I think this is a powerful statement.

Sending you hugs. Keep us posted as to how you are doing. When is your next session?


TN

((((MTF)))))

I'm glad she wasn't defensive and she agreed not to talk about herself anymore even though that opened up a new set of fears for you. She doesn't seem to be able to give you the warmth you need in order to feel comfortable. It would make ME uncomfortable working with someone who is feeling frustrated with me because they don't think I am working hard enough. It would make me feel as though there was some kind of conditional "love" going on there. I would then focus my worrying on whether or not I was working up to her standards instead of discovering who I am.

She doesn't seem to have the insight into what it is that's lacking in your relationship with her that is causing you to feel so uncomfortable or the ability to get you past it.

Have you thought about going on a consult? You don't even have to tell her. Find someone close by who works with attachment? And see if there is any difference. I've seen so many times here (and experienced it) the difference it makes in terms of having the attachment feelings accepted or not by the T. She doesn't seem to accept them or want to help you with them. She actually may not KNOW how to help you with them and isn't willing to take it all more seriously.

Sorry you are hurting so much.



xoxo

Liese

Thanks so much for your responses, advice, encouragement, etc. everyone. I am really down right now and feel like I'm ready to be done with therapy, period. Does it have to feel crappy all the time? I am in despair and don't know what to do. I feel like I left with my T thinking things were fine, but they're not fine. She doesn't ask me how I'm feeling, why things bother me, there's no discussion of things. She just gets defensive, tells me her reason for doing things, and that's that. I wish I had read her what I had written out instead of just minimizing it by saying it in a couple sentences. I wish I could talk. I have 3 weeks break due to the holidays and I am so down I don't know how to pick myself up again.

Sorry I can't reply individually. I can't get my head to do much of anything right now. Just wanted to say thanks to those of you who took the time to reply. Your responses are helpful.

Hugs,
MTF

Really sorry you are feeling so low MTF. It was such a difficult and confronting thing to do - it would rock me to my core. Are you thinking that T is not suited to you as she suggested? Is that going around inside your head? Go with your gut feeling on it. Maybe go on a consult and see what is out there.

I just feel like when she said she got defensive because she is frustrated that I am not putting much effort into my therapy that she was saying she is tired of me. I feel like her saying that she's not the right therapist for everyone was another way of saying that maybe I need a different T. She knows I've been at this for 2 years and not seen much in the way of results. It's largely because of the relationship as well as the OC stuff I have within the relationship, plus I just don't feel like therapy should come out of a self-help book. I could do that on my own. Yet I feel some connection to my T and the idea of leaving her feels so terrifying that when I tried to do it in February I literally felt like I was going to die without her and I went running back. What is wrong with me???

Echos:

quote:

the only thing you could try is to say that you want to start making boundaries for yourself to look after your own well being or something , like i did F.And then tell her the truth of it all.If its causing you pain then she should stop doing it.

xoxo:

quote:

Please don't let this fester. Jump at the chance when she is doing this while the experience and feelings are still fresh in both of your minds.

quote:

"I need to talk to you about something that has me very scared. I feel like if I address it, it's going to cause a major rupture. But I also know its important to face problems head on so we can work them through.

I have been feeling upset about how much time has been spent in my sessions talking about your life. When you spend a lot of time chatting about your life, I feel unimportant, as if I don't matter, even though this is my therapy. It can also be painful to hear so much about your life as I struggle with wanting to be part of your life in that way but know I can't. I am not sure what your intention is by discussing your personal life and would like to discuss that as well as how I am reacting to it."

AG

Kashley:

quote:

Just try to be was honest and upfront as you can. ((((hugs)))) Please let us know how it goes.

TN:

quote:

But if you don't address them, they fester and fog and contaminate the therapy space and you won't heal. So it has to be done. I wish the best for you and I will be thinking of you tomorrow. Please let us know how it all goes.

Don't forget to breathe and stay calm and focused. Write things down if you feel you will not be able to remember what needs to be said.

SG:

quote:

I'm pulling for you, too. I hope your T is able to respond the way xoxo's did.

Liese:

quote:

I actually think he likes to see me take control of the conversation and not let it run all over the place. It was hard to do the first time but has gotten easier because he was not defensive about it. Now, if he got defensive, that would be another story.

Good luck!

Raven:

quote:

I hope your honesty is accepted and you and your T can continue working at your comfort level.

Df:

quote:

(((MTF))) Thinking of you, hope it goes well I think you got some good advice here!

MTF:

quote:

that by sharing personal triumphs with me I can see that it is possible to change and overcome my schemas. I told her that stuff was fine, but that is was the details about her grandchildren, children, spouse, etc. that were hard for me. I asked her if that made sense and she said it did. Then she promised me that her personal stuff won't come into my sessions ever again.

Alpaca:

[QUOTE(((MTF)))

Maybe getting the courage to communicate what you did WAS the work you needed to be doing.]

[/QUOTE]

Monte:

quote:

MTF, I guess you'll keep pushing and maybe something might shift in this relationship, but for your sanity you may need to get really blunt with her. You may need to ask is she willing to change her approach with you in order to help you both connect directly with your inner child and acknowledge/address her needs and fears. I believe that it is what most of us here need to do, but if you are with a T who does not or cannot practice from that angle...it must be a bit hellish. That young internal you is clearly present and looking for connection, because she has attached to Ts caring, but your T has yet to 'see' her and work with her.

I don't know how best you can communicate all this, other than via blunt honesty. There is risk in that of course, because it may force her to see what is needed - which she may or may not be able to deliver. Maybe that is what her comment about you two not being a good fit are about.

Hugs to you MTF...this is such a hard place to be in.

xoxo:

[QUOTEThe best therapists in the world should dissapoint their patients. Working through such dissapointments is an important part of the process. And maybe you have made strides in your therapy in doing what you did-being assertive. I see this as a positive thing. I hope you feel good about this in the long run and that it contributes to your growth.

But sad to hear your therapist brought up the possibility of not being a good match. This sounds like really bad timing to have that sort of discussion.

I do think this will help you in the long run. It might not feel this way right now, but I really think you are much better off now that you have addressed this. I hope things get better for you from here.


[/QUOTE]

quote:

Does it have to feel crappy all the time? I am in despair and don't know what to do. I feel like I left with my T thinking things were fine, but they're not fine. She doesn't ask me how I'm feeling, why things bother me, there's no discussion of things. She just gets defensive, tells me her reason for doing things, and that's that. I wish I had read her what I had written out instead of just minimizing it by saying it in a couple sentences. I wish I could talk. I have 3 weeks break due to the holidays and I am so down I don't know how to pick myself up again.

SD:

quote:

It was such a difficult and confronting thing to do - it would rock me to my core. Are you thinking that T is not suited to you as she suggested? Is that going around inside your head? Go with your gut feeling on it. Maybe go on a consult and see what is out there.

quote:

I just feel like when she said she got defensive because she is frustrated that I am not putting much effort into my therapy that she was saying she is tired of me. I feel like her saying that she's not the right therapist for everyone was another way of saying that maybe I need a different T. She knows I've been at this for 2 years and not seen much in the way of results. It's largely because of the relationship as well as the OC stuff I have within the relationship, plus I just don't feel like therapy should come out of a self-help book. I could do that on my own. Yet I feel some connection to my T and the idea of leaving her feels so terrifying that when I tried to do it in February I literally felt like I was going to die without her and I went running back. What is wrong with me???

Dearest MTF...there is nothing wrong with you, except for the same thing that is wrong with me: we need to heal within a relationship where the T *has no emotional needs (to feel successful) to be met from us*

It needs to not matter to them, whether we make progess or not. Then, paradoxically, we make progress. this progress will *hurt.* It will not "feel good" except, once in awhile. We need to accept that. yes, a psychodynamic T, or a T who accepts the notion of attachment injury.

There are some of us who cannot heal within the concept of transference...I am firmly convinced of this. (Many here may disagree, but I think those of us with OCD tendencies, are within this framework.) Some of us nbeed a less intense relationship, one where we can talk and just be ourselves, without punishment.. this requires, having a T with no personal feelings or needs from us- which is painful in an entiorely different way. It's time to move on...you've outgrown her, frankly. You are deeper than she is, and she is seeking to get her deeper needs met through you. *you* will never heal in this way. But only you can decide if *you* are importnat enough to you, to leave her. (sorry to be so blunt- and I could be very wrong!) And you need to be calmly, unconditionally accepted within the parameters of...*whatever*...we might need to say. Cowboy T gives me homework....but he never tells me I have to do it...he says...it is *totallyt* up to me, whether I do it or not. grrrrr. But...that *is* the way. He asks me about it...and I usually say..."nope, i didn't do it" and he says..."ok, so what do we talk about today?"

That is normal therapy.

I think...it hurts. I've been where ytou are...in denial that such an intelligent, accomplished T-- could be that she doesn't have what *you* need. It hurts like hell. I also had a hugely accomplished T, with many accolades, in fact, I will say that within my circle he is a completely *famous* T. It hurts that such a one, plastered *all over* the internet, with many TV and radio interviews, etc...would not be able to help me. ouch.

But the reality is that he was right...he was not the one for me. I needed a much humbler T. I needed an ordinary, everyday T...not a famous, hugely booked one. He is available to me, and that is most hlepful of all. And...he cares, but *he* doesn't need me, or my approval.

MTF...too long...but y0ou have gotten so much good advice here, that I felt I had to quote it all.

I'm so, so deeply sorry for your pain. It is a wound that will not easily heal, whether you stay with your T, or whether you leave.



Much love,

Beebs

((((((((((((MTF))))))))))))))

I am sorry you are hurting so much. MTF, I hope it's okay if I get kind of direct here, understanding, of course, that I could be totally off-base. I actually do not agree that your T did not get defensive with you. I think she did. A non-defensive response would have been to recognize how it was hurting you, apologize, and stop. However, she explained "why" she was telling you the things she was telling you, with no apology/amends. IMO, that IS the very definition of defensiveness (or maybe rationalization - whatever). Not only that, but I believe you've asked her to stop telling you these things before, AND she's also known for quite some time the effect it's had on you, so...it really sounds to me like she is (unconsciously) looking to get some of her needs met (for friendship, perhaps) through you, and when you (rightly) call her on it, she defends herself by saying she was giving you what you "want". So it's your fault?? I'm sorry, but no, it's not, MTF. Furthermore, her saying you're not working hard enough is not true at all. I've rarely seen anyone work harder at therapy than you. And saying maybe you're just "not a good match" seems rather spiteful, given the spirit in which you were bringing this up with her. I'm sorry, MTF, but I think you need and deserve more from a T. I do agree with Beebs that you've outgrown her, and I believe that the pain you are experiencing is you trying to blame yourself for this discussion not really working out (which I really understand BTW). I am SO sorry, this kind of pain is extremely hellish. I do believe it will get better if you could speak to a few other T's and find one who has what you need. It will not be easy...and I could be wrong, of course...but that is my take on what is happening. I hope you can find some peace. You deserve it, love.

Hugs,
SG

((AG)), ((ETE)), ((XOXO)), ((Kashley)), ((TN)), ((Raven)), ((DF)), ((alpaca)), ((Liese)), ((Monte)), ((SD)), ((BB)), ((SG)).

Thanks for your responses, ladies. I think I am starting to feel some anger at my T and that I am looking at this whole thing more as a lack in her than in myself. Thanks for telling me I have outgrown her BB & SG. I felt really stupid when she told me that she has a patient that she was discharging this week who had been coming for 2 years and was done with the book and ready to go. I have been with my T for 2 years and am nowhere near ready to be done with therapy. I'm glad that her book works for some people, but it doesn't work for me. You all are right that I need a psychodynamic T who understands attachment, because my T is blaming it on my schemas of subjugation and unrelenting standards. Okay. Those are viable issues, but attachment comes from a deeper place. I never get to talk about my own pain. I instead relay it to my T when I read the stuff in the book I've highlighted that "sounds like" me but is taken from case examples. It's all from an intellectualized place rather than me talking about my pain and feeling the emotions connected with it. I'm supposed to do that at home between sessions.

The more I consider this relationship, the more I feel it is toxic. I think Kashley pointed that out to me months ago. I know I need to leave. I have to be in a good enough place to leave my T and feeling strong enough to do it this time. Last time I went running back like a scared little girl who was afraid of losing her mother forever. It was horrific pain to think about losing my relationship with my T, but I think there's too much negative 'chemistry' of sorts with her that keeps me stuck and unable to move forward or be myself in her presence.

Thanks for helping me see these things. I know a lot of you have been telling me for a long time now that I need to find a new T. I have known it for myself for almost a year now, I just have been trying to make it work anyway. I now see it is pretty futile. I can't change my T, that's for sure.

Thanks again,
MTF

(((MFT))),

I just wanted to say that you are very brave forging ahead like this and making the realization that maybe this T just isn't the one for you, AND even though it might not be the right time to let go--it's still something that you are brave enough to think about. That's the hardest decision to make because our attachment feelings for them grow so strong. I, too, kept wondering through out the relationship with my T whether or not she was the RIGHT one for me. Everyone would say "Do a consult," or "Hey, Brokes--that just doesn't sound right!" I'd listen and take it in, make a decision that it was over and then I'd see T and she'd pull me back in all over again. (Kind of like an abusive relationship). I'd get wrapped up in her all over again until the next moment she broke my heart. My T really struggled with attachment and having me need her. So, it became a constant battle of unmet attachment needs and her pulling away when it got close. It was heartbreaking and damaging.

Anyways, I probably would still be holding on to the hope that my T would change and accept my attachment and things would improve IF my T didn't make that decision for me. (I don't know if I could have EVER let go without her letting go first. It's not easy, and I completely understand where you are coming from saying that it's futile.) She decided that she wasn't the right fit. I, personally, thought she could change her style and be a bit more flexible. BUT, it just wasn't her. AND as much as it hurts, I know it's the right decision. I am going to be better off and I found a new T that basically promised that I'd never have any disruptions in my therapy again. She said she's there for the long haul, and I can't scare her or anything with attachment. It feels good to know that the new work that I am about to do will be accepted and handled in a more competent manner.

I still love my OldT. I love her to pieces, and I wonder how I will live without her. BUT, I know it's for the best. I realized that there are MANY many different types of T's. I was new to therapy when I started with OldT. She didn't know what she was getting into, and neither did I. I have attachment needs that she couldn't fulfill. SO, in order to heal, I have to change and work with an attachment specialist--someone who suits my personal needs better than just a T who works quick CBT issues (in and out therapy).

My hubby said it best. He said---"Brokes! If you had brain cancer and you were seeing a cardiologist--you'd be screwed! You'd need to go and see a brain surgeon. You can't stick with the cardiologist and hope that somehow through the heart, he/she'd be able to heal that tumor." He was right. We all have different needs---and the RIGHT T for us needs to understand those needs and be willing and educated to work with it.

My best to you, MFT. I really hope that you take the time to really think through things and do what feels best for you. That's something that's the MOST important thing. YOU are the one that has to feel, carry out, and live with the decision. Take as much time as you need, and know that we are here to support you through all that you do.

((HUGS)) I know this isn't easy.

Love, Brokes

((Unbroken)),

Thank you for sharing your story with me. It helps me see that there is hope on the other side of this uphill climb I am struggling with. It's nice to come here and find support, and I thank you for yours.

MTF

((((((MTF)))))) I'm sorry. You know I do not disagree with your conclusion but I am sad that it is one you had to come to. As for it taking it awhile, I have always been grateful that my T turned out to be good one, because I honestly do not know if I would have had the strength to leave him. It is courageous of you to even be considering it. I hope that you'll continue to get support here from all the people who needed to find another T.

I know it's not the same thing, but I remember when my first T retired thinking that I would NEVER find someone to have that deep a relationship with again, whom I could trust on that level. And I didn't, I found someone I went even deeper with and trusted even more.

But I know it's going to hurt like hell.

AG

((((MTF))))

You might be planning on doing this and/or someone might have suggested it but what about finding a T and having one in place before you leave her. I did that when I left my OldT. It was so much easier to actually leave knowing I had somewhere to go. And someone I liked.

FWIW, it would be hard for me to work the way she works as well. Maybe it works for some people but it doesn't work for you. She sounds like one of those rigid CBTer's who hasn't come over to the wild side yet! She doesn't know what she is missing!

xoxo

Love,

Liese

Thanks, AG, BB (post deleter ), and Liese. I need all the support I can get.

By the way, Beebs, I read both posts and appreciated what you wrote. I'm sad you took them down but understand if you felt you needed to delete. Thanks for your support. ((BB))

MTF

I'm sorry, MTF...I don't remember doing that. Big hugs,

Beebs