Oh, and P.S., he told me recently that I could never be one of those people you get annoyed at for pestering someone too much, that I'm very considerate of everyone else's needs.

Just a little more background info if it'll help you give me advice.

As a bit of an add on. I would go in on Monday but I can't leave the way I did yesterday. If we were able to focus on what has been going on and leave me feeling good and stable, it would probably be a good thing to go in.

Anyway, I was hoping for some kind of acknowledgement that he knew how bad I felt when I left and that we had to focus on that on Monday so I could leave feeling better.

But, alas, he didn't call back.

Here is part of what he said in his first message. Am I being too picky? "I really feel terrible that you are feeling the way you are. I recognize that you are opening up more and I want you to share things. I want you to feel my support. I recognize the pain you are going through but also the hard work you are doing."

As far as the change is concerned, he said of course there are components I need to change but we all do and it's part of therapy. I'm not sure what he's talking about, what components. I think about how I'd love to be able to get up every day and go to a job and come home and take care of the kids and be a responsible mother and person but I also get sidetracked by my emotions sometimes and fall apart under pressure. I am getting stronger but IDK maybe I'm wrong, I just feel like it's going to take time for me to be able to do all that.

Am I just feeling like I'm unlovable?

Liese..I'm so sorry.. I'm not in a good place to say anything right now. I just wanted to let you know I read your post and am sending hugs. I know it's useless..I wish I had more to offer.

Hi Liese - applause on how much progress you are making - it sounds like there's a huge amount of growth going on.

It also sounds here like you are actually very clear on what you want and need in this situation:

quote:

I would go in on Monday but I can't leave the way I did yesterday. If we were able to focus on what has been going on and leave me feeling good and stable, it would probably be a good thing to go in.

Anyway, I was hoping for some kind of acknowledgement that he knew how bad I felt when I left and that we had to focus on that on Monday so I could leave feeling better.

Kudos, too, for figuring this out. To me it sounds like the only thing missing is that you haven't yet told him this - that you want to come in but have a very specific goal, and you would like his help to meet it. You are sort of hoping/expecting him to know your needs and meet them by calling you back in response to you being upset and undecided. What if he cares that you are upset (he said so) but he also trusts you to find what you want & need in the upset and to let him know?

Hi Liese, I'm sorry you're feeling let down. I really understand those feelings of wanting to be seen and understood without having to spell it out all the time...

I do think, like Jones said, that you are very clear about what you need from your T but I guess the hard bit is asking for that because there is all the shame of having needs and the disappointment of not having them met automatically... I am going through a very similar learning experience with my T. She will not call if I don't ask her to, I know this. I have to know what I need. If I don't know what I need, I have to ask her to help me find out. This is really difficult when I don't feel I'm worthy of support or when I'm angry that no one is giving me support when they must see what I need. But that's the stuff of therapy, I suppose. Being angry, learning to be self-supporting (which involves being able to ask for help when we need it) rather than self-sufficient- which is what I learned I had to be as a child but actually doesn't work so well now.
My T has let me down on one very significant occasion by not being available when she said she would be but working through that, feeling that disappointment and distress, acknowledging I felt angry (though not able to express it to her - yet) has proved to be one of the most healing things I've done with her.

I'm sorry to go on about me so much - your feelings resonated with me and I wanted to let you know you weren't alone and to say talking to my T about feeling let down has really helped me. And I am learning to ask for what I need. It might take a few attempts because I ask imprecisely and get a response I don't want - but knowing what I don't want helps me know what I do want, if that makes sense.

Iris xx

Liese I’m sorry you’re feeling let down by T. I know you’d allowed yourself to believe in his caring from the extra responses he was giving you (like calling to check on you, and making an effort to convince you to come back to therapy…) so it sucks that now when you do need a call from him and thought you could count on it, he never responded.

Perhaps he thought you were for real that seeing as how Monday is your birthday (happy birthday in advance by the way, if you don’t mention it again or I forget ) you genuinely didn’t want to come in and be made to feel bad on your birthday?

I’m sorry too that I don’t seem able to come up with anything helpful or useful – I think Jones has a good idea with suggesting that you be very specific with your T about what you’re wanting/needing from him. It may be that it’s all a matter of his caring simply not being enough, no matter how much he cares? In which case you need to be able to talk to him about that and work through those crappy feelings .

I’m guessing here of course so I’m sorry in advance if what I’ve said is rubbish and completely off the mark.

Hugs to you ((((((( Liese )))))))

LL

I am feeling a big fat uuuuuggggghhhhh when reading this. This has happened to me so many times and I really know how it feels.

What I have done (and probably still will do until I get much better at handling it) is to stew on it for a week, then totally shut down, go inside myself, punish myself for not talking, don't return any calls, texts, emails from T, get progressively dissociated, unfeeling, cut off from everyone. Maybe turn up to the next session and not be able to talk and verbalise nor know what is happening. Very confused T will try and guess and I will end up a dissociated mess. The session will be a disaster. I will leave twice as angry as before. wait a couple more days in absolute mental pain. Then eventually write T a HUGE email about how angry I am at her for basically, not being able to mind read.

I will explain all the issues - about how previously she has enquired about me and that time it was wonderful and I really needed that again, but couldn't verbalise it and she didn't do it. She let me down badly. etc etc.

It would take about 2 weeks to resolve, then it would take another week for me to get back to square 1.

All of this would trigger that T was inconsistent - she offered perfect, intuitive care one time and when I needed it next - she didn't know. I was unable to ask for help when I really needed it - not waiting to be rescued but because of my issues, genuinely unable to call out and ask for help, I reverted to old habits of going inside myself and cutting off and rather dying than asking for help and feeling weak etc, not wanting to be a burden etc.


I am not saying that this scenario is anything like yours Liese - but to explain what reading your situation dug up for me.

Somedays

Hi Liese I do not think their is one person here on the cafe who does not know what you are going through. T's in my mind are very limited in how the understand what goes on with us [the clients] as they [T's] tend to take all their know how from text books. A top education lots off MBA's degrees and so on do not to my mind apply to reality. If only they were to stand on their own two feet from time to time their would be less problems comming our way.
ND
All the best.

Hi nigeldaniel,

You know, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there...at least in part. Ts are people just like us, and although they're trained to pick up nuances and such, they are human and occasionally miss something. My T has apologized to me a couple times, after the fact, when she's had a response or said something that maybe came across as insensitive or even angry (which she's admitted to feeling a couple of times, but it's only ever been anger with the best of intentions, if that makes sense). And those two times she apologized, I've never even said anything about it - she picked it up herself after thinking about it, even for a few days. Those slip ups aren't due to a certain element of detachment because of years of schooling - it was due to her being human. Sure, Ts are trained to take our perspective and hopefully not have these kinds of misattunements, but occasionally they happen.

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent, Liese. I do agree with what's been said though. Don't be afraid to talk to your T about this. He will want to know how you felt about his reaction. You might feel more vulnerable lately because you're putting yourself out there, but you're doing really awesome, admirable work with him.

(((KASHLEY)))(((JONES)))(((IRIS)))(((LL)))(((SOMEDAYS))))

I want to thank you all for the hugs and support. Even if you didn't feel like what you said was helpful, trust me it was.

Kashley - I'm sorry you are not in a good place yourself. It was really nice of you to reach out to me when you were feeling bad and could probably use some support. The hug was not useless. It was really touching. Thanks.

Jones -

quote:

it sounds like there's a huge amount of growth going on.

Ouch, it hurts. The growing pains are awful. I need a little bit of a slowdown about now.

quote:

To me it sounds like the only thing missing is that you haven't yet told him this - that you want to come in but have a very specific goal, and you would like his help to meet it. You are sort of hoping/expecting him to know your needs and meet them by calling you back in response to you being upset and undecided. What if he cares that you are upset (he said so) but he also trusts you to find what you want & need in the upset and to let him know?

I COULD do that. I could call him back and be more specific about what I need but I always feel like I'm crawling back with my tail between my legs. LOL! A couple of weeks ago, I told him that and he said it wasn't true so I wore a cat tail to my session and had it stick out from the bottom of my pants. He got a big kick out of that.

It's this really awful dynamic I create for myself. This time, however, I was really bad when I left and I wasn't sure he got it. There was no indication he got it and I don't want to put myself in a vulnerable position on Monday - with the holidays coming. These 45 minute sessions can really be the pits. There is no flexibility in there for anything out of the ordinary.

Iris -

quote:

but I guess the hard bit is asking for that because there is all the shame of having needs and the disappointment of not having them met automatically...

That's it exactly. After the shame and disappointment, comes anger. Anger that I have to ask. It feels like it's because I've been so humiliated in the past trying to get my needs met as if the other is making me get down on your hands and knees and beg. Why does it feel like that? Probably goes back to the yodel story.

Quickly, the yodel story. I had this mean "best friend" when I was little. She would get mad at me for not being able to assert myself. My mother never bought good snacks and her mother did. We were at her house and she asked me if I wanted a yodel or an apple. I just kept saying, "I don't care." "I don't care." She got so incrediby frustrated with me because I couldn't tell her I wanted the yodel so she threw the apple at me and stormed away. My first therapist. LOL! Who knew.

quote:

My T has let me down on one very significant occasion by not being available when she said she would be but working through that, feeling that disappointment and distress, acknowledging I felt angry (though not able to express it to her - yet) has proved to be one of the most healing things I've done with her.

That was interesting to read, Iris. My T has made an effort since we had some issues not to let me down. He's been incredibly consistent and amazing, going above and beyond really. That is what makes it hard for me to be angry and upset now even though I am. This is the first time since we turned our relationship around that I feel hugely disappointed, neglected, not cared for by him. And, then I get beseiged by guilt. What if someone dear to him got hit by a car and I'm sitting here whining because he didn't call me?

I thought he knew I was in such a bad state but it could be like the boy who cried wolf because I am always bad. But I need for my own saftey some sort of way to get a signal to him that this week is worse or something.

After I left, I ran smack right into the boundaries because I really needed to spend more time with him but couldn't. And I couldn't call him and say, hey, can I meet with you on Friday or Saturday. He doesn't work those days. So, on top of all the pain that was there already, the boundaries hit me like a 2 x 4 and honestly my head was still vibrating as of last night.

But I need to work out some kind of system with him if that ever happens again.

Iris, what you wrote about yourself helped me as well. Please don't worry about talking about your own experiences. The story you shared does make a lot of sense. Thanks.

LL - Thanks also for the support.

quote:

so it sucks that now when you do need a call from him and thought you could count on it, he never responded.

Yeah it does suck. He's been so consistent and so amazing and reaching out to me even when I didn't ask so it's hard, this time, when I really needed it, that he didn't come through.

I suppose the onus is ultimately on me in life to be able to tell when I need more support and ask for it.. But how do you say to someone, "a nice phone call tonight checking in on me would be really appreciated?" Do people do that? "Or a little extra caring and stroking this weekend is needed, please. Thank you very much."

LL, nothing you say is rubbish. The support is always appreciated.

Somedays -

quote:

What I have done (and probably still will do until I get much better at handling it) is to stew on it for a week, then totally shut down, go inside myself, punish myself for not talking, don't return any calls, texts, emails from T, get progressively dissociated, unfeeling, cut off from everyone. Maybe turn up to the next session and not be able to talk and verbalise nor know what is happening. Very confused T will try and guess and I will end up a dissociated mess. The session will be a disaster. I will leave twice as angry as before. wait a couple more days in absolute mental pain. Then eventually write T a HUGE email about how angry I am at her for basically, not being able to mind read.

My first thought was , ouch, how painful. But then it seemed as though you are starting to get a handle on it and that has to be progress. That's interesting that you bring up the consistency because my T has been amazingly consistent and this is the first time that I feel hugely let down like this. I suppose it there has to be growth in being let down by someone you trust because as everyone repeats over and over, other people are going to disappoint us and let us down.

quote:

I was unable to ask for help when I really needed it - not waiting to be rescued but because of my issues, genuinely unable to call out and ask for help, I reverted to old habits of going inside myself and cutting off and rather dying than asking for help and feeling weak etc, not wanting to be a burden etc.

Yes I agree with you that it's not waiting to be rescued. It truly is an ability to ask for help. A lot of what you said really resonated with me. I haven't been as open with my T as you have because I'm probably not as comfortable with him as you are with yours but the cycle is still the same.

I had even thought of not going back, thinking that he just doesn't get me. This, to me, was such a huge signal crossing but then again, he has told me that even when I'm angry, I never appear as intense or rageful on the outside as I do inside.

I do think sometimes he doesn't get me but it's just because we are different and not because he doesn't care.

Thanks to all.

Doing better today.

Back again. It looks like we cross-posted, Nigeldaniel and Kashley

Nigeldaniel Thanks for your input. Thanks for letting me know that you understand what I was going through and have been there yourself. Emotions were so off-limits in my FOO that when I experience them, often I react as if I had a hot potato in my hand, "hey, over here, I'm experiencing an emotion. Don't know what to do with it. Someone help please." LOl!


I do have to agree with you about the misattunement. I'm not sure the misattunemnet is from detachment or if it's that they haven't gone through what we've gone through. I am sure, though, that there are T's out there who are detached and those are the ones you want to stay away from.

My own T has had his own share of emotional experiences in life - which are very different than mine. He has admitted that he has never felt some of the feelings I feel often. That's huge, I think.

So, I think the misattunement might be from 1. that yes he does have to learn how I am feeling from a book because of his different experiences and 2. he might not experience his emotions with the same intensity that I do and 3. I'm an expert at downplaying how much pain I really am in. (I'm barely wincing when I've got a hot potato in my hands.)

Kashley - nice to see you back here again. I do feel more vulnerable with him lately because I have been so open with him. And sort of oddly, he hasn't been responding much one way or another - so that's adding to the vulnerability because I don't know how he's reacting inside. I'm not getting any feedback.

For instance, his birthday was the day after my session on Monday. I struggled with what to do. It's the first year that I even knew it was his birthday. Do I give him a card? A small gift? Bring him a cupcake? I finally decided to just wish him a happy birtday at the end of my session because I felt as though that's all he would want and anything else might make him uncomfortable. It made me sad that after knowing him this long that just a verbal happy birthday would be all he would expect and even prefer. (Actually I'm not sure that many if any of his clients know when his birthday is becuase he doesn't disclose much. I happened to ask last year because he always remembered when mine was - as it turns out, mine is 6 days after his and that's how he remembers.)

I was actually feeling incredibly bad and wrong for even knowing when his birthday was and knowing that I'd asked last year and that he'd probably prefer I didn't know - much less wish him a happy birthday. Uggggghhhhhh. so much anxiety.

I expressed all that this Thursday - and he didn't say anything at all. Nothing. Not even, oh Liese, you could have given me a card. Nothing. And, so I read lots of negative stuff into his silence. That 2 x 4 was whacking me pretty good after I left. That self-hatred. It's a killer.

Hope you are feeling a bit better.

Hey Liese!

Read your thread, don't have much time to respond but wanted to say something...

quote:

So, what do I do? He's glad I'm being more assertive. It's one of my main issues. Do I tell him that it felt like he didn't care about me?

and....

quote:

Oh, and P.S., he told me recently that I could never be one of those people you get annoyed at for pestering someone too much, that I'm very considerate of everyone else's needs.

Liese, being assertive about your needs is not being needy. There is a difference. Granted I still struggle with it myself, in fact I don't think I have ever not struggled with it, but looking in as an outsider I would always argue that people should not be expected to mind read. I think being assertive about your needs and expectations, in therapy especially, is necessary. If you don't do that your T will spend endless amounts of time trying to guess things instead of being able to clarify things and help you. Your T did say that he is happy you are being more assertive. Nothing wrong with expressing your feelings and needs in therapy Liese.

Let me make this very clear I don't find expressing my needs easy, and depending on the response you get it will most likely make it either easier or more difficult the next time, but if you are asking for advice then I would say you should at least try.

Good luck and in case I forget for Monday!

B2W

(((B2W)))

quote:

but if you are asking for advice then I would say you should at least try.

Thank you! And thanks for the birthday wishes too!

Still

Thought about calling him but it's a holiday for him and so I thought the better of it.

I can wait. Miserable but can wait.

(((((((( Liese )))))))

Hang his holiday, if you need to speak to him, you go ahead. It might be exactly the right thing to do.

Hm ok it might not be too, but I'm thinking more along of the lines of letting yourself reach out to him and getting a big dose of support and understanding that might otherwise never have come your way.

More hugs for you whatever you do, I'm sad that you're sad



LL

(((LL)))

Thanks for the hugs.

quote:

Hang his holiday, if you need to speak to him, you go ahead. It might be exactly the right thing to do.

He hasn't yelled at me yet. At this point, though, I don't even know what would be helpful. It might cause me more anxiety to call him tonight.

Although he could be at an awful family gathering and might be grateful for the opportunity to step out.

Hope you're doing ok, Liese.

(((IRIS)))

Thank you.

I talked to my T a little while ago. He had an emergency session on Thursday night re: a situation that happened within our community. It was the first he had heard of it. He went home and the story dominated our local news channel. Then, on Friday, he woke to the tragedy that happened in CT.

He said he knew how bad I was and intended to call me but got blindsighted by all the tragedies. I could tell how upset he was about both tragedies even though he didn't know any of the victims personally. It reinforced for me that he is a really caring person and couldn't possibly think the awful things about me I think he thinks.

So, I'm going in to see him tomorrow afterall and hopefully I'll get stitched back together.

Can't think everyone enough for all the wonderful support.

Liese,

So glad you talked with your T, and decided to go in tomorrow.

I hope that you can find some support and care from him.

Oh..........and

tomorrow!

Blu

(((BLU)))))

Thanks and thanks!!!

I'm so glad you got to talk to him!

Liese... sorry I was not around to support you in this but I'm so glad to hear that you spoke with T and will go to see him tomorrow. I know you will work this out face to face... you both have become very good at this and you will leave there feeling his care stronger than ever.

Let us know how it goes.
Hugs
TN

Well, it's Monday here now, so Liese

Happy Birthday Liese!



Starlight

Yay for you for contacting T and even more yay's for his comments. That's a birthday gift and a half yeah?

And of course HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!



LL

Happy Birthday (((((Liese)))))!!!!

((ANG))((TN))((SCARS))((STARLIGHT))((LL))((DRAGONFLY))((AV))

Thank you all for the wonderful support and birthday wishes. I don't know but I have a feeling that today's the day we talk about love. I'm just hoping my T has been taking notes from TN's T but I'm not confident that he has. I don't think the conversation is avoidable, though, after what we started to talk about on Thursday. That's the reason I didn't want to go in on my birthday because it would be a bummer to hear that he doesn't love me. Wish me luck that I'll be strong enough to withstand whatever happens. I told him when we spoke yesterday that I don't know how to put myself back together. He said that I can't do it alone and he can't do it alone, that it's a joint venture. He also recognized that he needs to give me more support because I have been opening up a lot more to him lately and it's making me feel more vulnerable. I have to count my blessings there.

Hope everyone else has a nice day as well. I'm so glad to know all of you. Thank you.

quote:

He also recognized that he needs to give me more support because I have been opening up a lot more to him lately and it's making me feel more vulnerable.

I think that's awesome Liese. Therapy is constantly fluctuating, and most of the time we can rely on a good T to keep with those changing needs and such, but other times we need to make them aware of a need, like your need for more support. Good for you for opening up so much, best of luck at your session, and Happy Birthday!

Hi Liese... just hope the birthday wish is not too late in the day.
All the best.
ND

Glad it went well. And happy birthday!!!!!!

Happy Birthday Liese!!!

So glad that you had a good talk with your T. Hope you have a wonderful session today as well!

Happy Birthday Liese!!!



I hope the session goes well and you leave feeling the connection and care of your T.

(((KASHLEY)))(((NIGELDANIEL)))(((SOMEDAYS)))(((HELD)))(((IRIS))))(((COGS))))

Thanks for the good wishes. We got most everything hammered out. I don't think he realized that he hadn't been responding to me when I would tell him certain things. And I also think he thought he was communicating certain things but wasn't doing so verbally. Haha. They both sound kind of the same. Lots of words unsaid, really. Maybe it comes down to the fact that he thinks he communicates things to me better than he does sometimes.

He insisted on a phone session on Christmas Eve. And gave me a birthday card for the first time ever. The front of the card says:

Just a little HUG for you on your BIRTHDAY.

And then when you open it up, it says, "Did you feel it?"

He wrote on the inside that he saw this card and thought it was the perfect way to say Happy Birthday. Hope this year brings you health, happiness and peace.

At the end of the session he said that he hopes I don't question how he feels about me because it shouldn't be a question, there isn't a question. So, I said, well, actually, there is SO much you do not say. For instance, you don't say the "L" word. I told him that I fill it into the silence anyway but then sometimes I remind myself to take it out because I'm building something that doesn't exist and what happens then is that the floor will fall out. He responded by saying the floor will not fall out. ?? This is what he does. He implies it but doesn't SAY it. Ugggghhhh. I just want to hear the words so I know for sure.

(((Liese)))

Maybe sometimes we have to remember that actions speak louder than words. Your T might not use the 'L' word but I'm sure the card was given with love. It must mean so much to you that he gave it.

I'm so pleased to hear that your session went well today.

I was just wondering what everybody thinks about my session. I'm feeling really down tonight because of personal problems and am not sure how to read the session. I know that might sound whacky. I think it's just the frame of mind I'm in so would love some feedback. I just read what AV wrote and wish I could feel the love from the card but somehow just can't.

As I am writing this, I started to think about the significance of his offer to share his time with me on Christmas Eve. I have to be out of my mind to question his love and care, yes? Now, I feel like anything he does will never be enough to "prove" he cares. I am just an empty bucket with lots of holes and will push him away with my demands.

Oh Liese I'm sorry I missed your birthday, I hope it was a great one! Id take his offer on the 24th, its sweet,

(((( Liese ))))

It sounded like such a great session, I'm sorry that you're losing the positive feelings you had about it .

quote:

Now, I feel like anything he does will never be enough to "prove" he cares

Well, maybe that's true too (sorry!). It's not his caring (or absence thereof) that's the issue is it? It's your ability to believe you can be cared about, liked, loved... Maybe a good question to think about would be what his caring means to you? Is it to do with him, or is it to do with making you feel good about yourself. If the latter, then all you can do is take in as much of his caring as you can and work from that foundation to build up caring even more for yourself. That's my game plan anyway and I might be in danger of loading onto you my motives, so just throwing this out to you for something to consider, or reject as might be the case.

quote:

I am just an empty bucket with lots of holes and will push him away with my demands.

Do you think this is what has made you flip into negative mode? That you did call him and he did respond beautifully and did give you lots of 'goodies' this last session and that's causing you a lot of anxiety? The inverse type of anxiety whereby the more your wants/needs are met, the more freaked out you get that they will be taken away?

Here's where you need to dredge up a bit of courage - and keep pushing, keep asking, keep showing your needs and wants even knowing that you're terrified of pushing him away as a result - and have faith that you won't push him away and that the experience will break the spell of the fear and past patterns.

Well that was a bit of a digression seeing as how what you asked for was comments on your session itself. To me it sounded really great - and I thought the card was magical and I LOVED the 'hug' comment, that shows so well that he has heard you and knows you and is reaching out to you on many different levels (sense of humour and all!) Maybe you'll get back the feelings about your great session, and the way you're feeling now is just a temporary blip. Perhaps the phone call session on Christmas Eve will cement it all? I do hope you're going ahead with it

LL