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What do you do? I am bringing it up to T, but I was curious if anyone here has any experience with it and has actually discussed it with their therapist.

Reminder: H and I share a T, but see him individually...H for sexsomnia related stuff, me for H's condition AND a whole bunch of childhood/trauma issues that have been stirred up. T's whole wanting to confront H for me regarding his condition has me thinking if some of my experiences with T are warning signs that I'm triggering some sort of paternal counter-transference in him. T brought up to H how he is "damaging me" last session, which is information from MY therapy. In today's phone session, T also asked my permission to talk to H about steps to protect me, my possibly leaving the bed, etc. I told T that even though I was worried I lacked the courage, I thought it probably should be my responsibility, but he didn't seem to think so. I could just be projecting a protective response from T, because I am a very caretaking, protective person to others in my life. However, I'm kind of worried that my helpless feelings and general neediness/dependency on T is drawing out some sort of counter-transference reaction.

Other things that make me think this:

-His willingness to run over with me on a regular basis, which he recently seems to be trying to correct. He always runs late, though (he ran over 10 minutes with H his last two sessions), so I think he must probably run over with all clients in general to bring things to a "natural" end. When we were scheduling our next appointment, he offered me Monday, because I don't like going from Friday morning until Tuesday night, but made sure to qualify, "If we do Monday, I really can't run very late. If we start late, of course, we'll go the whole hour, but it's too long of a day to make it a long appointment." I appreciated him giving me the heads up, but it sounds to me as if he assumes that the "standard" for our sessions is to run late and have more time. And...that would be fine with me if that's what our contract was the boundary was established at a different length. But, it seems like another "assumption" that hasn't been explicitly discussed.

-His willingness to accommodate my requests for late sessions. I have told him anything 7pm through 9pm works. It could just be a combination of having regular clients at other times and him being nice, but I am always his last client of the evening. For instance, he will tell me "either 8pm or 9pm" and if he gets another client who needs to come in, I always end up with the 9pm slot. I just assumed this was because he tended to run over with me and didn't want to inconvenience another client, but him making room to run over with me every week is, perhaps, an unusual accommodation in itself.

-The extreme amounts of outside contact he has encouraged...it's possible he allows this with all of his clients, but he never offered it as aggressively with H (who granted, doesn't struggle with "safety" issues). T has read nearly 200 pages, 1.15 spaced of material I have written in eight months (a majority of it since December), and keeps insisting he WANTS to do it. I can't imagine it is really THAT helpful or I am so interesting.

-He praises me pretty excessively, both to me and to my H. It's not that he never has anything corrective to say, but it is VERY rare. In his estimation, I am an amazing wife, a great mother, a talented writer, would make a great T myself, generous, kind, humble, patient, honest. Maybe he is just trying to combat my inner critic. He tells this stuff not only to me, but to my H, who teases me. He once told H that when he had been looking for a relationship (years ago), I was the type he would have considered "good wife material," but that was based on my H's description of me and me having attended a couple of H's sessions, before I was actually in therapy. On the other hand, he has recently told my H that he is prideful. Frowner Then again, he has only said good things about my H to ME, except regarding H's condition.

-The approach/withdrawal stuff I've been noticing. I wanted to sit on the floor, he chose to sit with me (I even said he didn't have to, but he said he felt more comfortable that way). Then, when I reacted intensely, he suddenly withdrew. He has called me "Kiddo" from early on. He stopped for a bit when I told him it reminded me of my dad. When I told him about my transference in February and asked him why he called me that (if it was purposeful to produce these feelings in me), he said I just "seemed like a Kiddo." He used it a few times lately after I "accepted" being Kiddo, but since I have told him how positive that made me feel, he hasn't used it once.

-He seems to be avoiding several conversations I have tried to initiate on connecting/disconnecting, the meaning of the therapeutic relationship, my request for more transparency regarding boundaries.

-He does a little bit of self-disclosure...not sure if it is too much. He has told me stuff, related to why he is late or can't read email, usually, about his wife forgetting to pay the electricity bill, or that he was moving, stuff about playing music at church (we both do), stories and jokes his mother told him or relating to certain thoughts/feelings I've had (could just be empathy), general stuff about other clients (again, as relates to me). He has disclosed much more to H, actually, than to me...so it may just be a part of his style to do so. None of it seems like TOO much, but added to this other stuff...


I don't know...I may be over-analyzing my T, who just has his own style of being a nice guy. However, I think it is my job to think about this stuff. It's not like it will make me leave T or anything, as long as we can talk through it and make sure things are safe, boundaried, etc. How likely is a T to even talk about this topic openly, though? I'm sure he'd talk about it with a colleague or get his own therapy, but do they engage clients in this sort of discussion or is that off-limits?

I feel bad, because T is a very generous, humble, kind guy himself, so I'd hate to chalk up all he does for me to some sort of automatic response to my need for a father figure. H brought up the possibility of T becoming attracted to me. A lot of this stuff seems like it may just be the way he is with his clients in general...and while I am desperate for boundaries with bright neon-signs flashing, I can respect that I need to learn how to deal with relationships shifting over time, the give and take, the moving closer and further away again as T has said. So, it's almost like a laboratory for real life I am experiencing here.

Anyway, sorry for another long post and all the rambling. I'm just really trying to work this stuff out, because I know it is first and foremost MY responsibility to make sure my therapy is a safe and secure place for me. I feel safe and comfortable with my T, but I also can react very anxiously, so I want to sort some of this out and protect that little Kiddo from any more damage if T decides he has been doing too much and suddenly withdraws.
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Yaku,

It does all sound very confusing and I would have a hard time dealing with all of that too. I know you love your T. But I'm going to say something here that I think you need to think about. I have heard from more than one psychologist that a T should never treat two memebers of the same family at the same time. I'm not talking about marriage counseling. I'm talking about what is going on with your T, treating both you and H individually. And, probably precisely for the reasons you have described, that they'd almost have to be superhuman not to develop some countertransference of their own. Maybe your T thinks he can handle it. But it seems to me it would be nearly impossible to be able to handle it.

He may be giving you extra support because he knows you need it, he knows how difficult it's been for you since you've been in therapy. My T is very boundaried and I like that. I know what to expect. Your T sounds like he's being very responsive to your needs, which is really nice but can be a little confusing? Some of his disclosures sound a little inappropriate, like telling your H that he would have considered you as wife material had he met you earlier. I'm not sure about the therapeutic value in that unless he's trying to tell your H that he has someone really terrific that he's taking for granted.

((((YAKU)))))

This is a tough one. Maybe H could find another therapist???

Liese
Thanks, Liese.

I know that T probably should not be seeing both of us, but at this point, H has been with him 15 months, and I've been with him eight months. So, if one of us had to leave, it would probably be me. Frowner It is actually MY fault he is seeing both of us. T asked H to get me into therapy, as he didn't believe I could be as "OK" as I felt like I was. He tried to refer me to a woman or have me go on my own to find someone and I just wouldn't. So, T asked me to come in just to tell my side of what was going on. I really only came in to support H. Then T wanted to see me in a few weeks...then every other week...then every week. Then, I basically "stole" my H's T, but not on purpose. I think he thought it would be a marriage-issue thing. I don't think he had ANY clue that I had all this past dissociated stuff that I just refused to deal with. And once he did, we had already established a connection, so it's not like he could abandon me at that point, with me being so vulnerable.

I feel like it would kill me to leave him (at least right now). To have to start completely over with another T while I'm in the middle of all of this unresolved processing...that's so scary! I'm not even 100% T is having counter-transference stuff. It's just an idea that came into my head. I may be full of it. He has been a T for 25 years. For all I know, this is just how he is with certain clients, who seem to need more support.

I do tend to test boundaries, but usually very politely, like just asking what they are, what they can be, why they are the way they are, if they might ever change. Since the beginning, I've been telling him that I need them defined, because I have only one set myself: skin-tight, impermeable boundaries that let no one in. Once they are gone, I have no sense of myself and my limits at all. And T got in somehow. He has always avoided conversations about what the limits/boundaries are. H thinks it is because I need to practice in therapy what it is like to establish real relationships. People won't just tell you what the boundaries are, you need to feel them out as you go. I think for some people that would be fine, but I am the type of client who really needs a clear and consistent environment to operate in. Well, too late for that, I guess. We're too deep to go back and set different limits and build on them slowly. If he did that now in any extreme sort of way, the withdrawal would just damage me.

I agree that T is probably just giving me the extra support, because I need it and he wants to meet that need. To clarify his disclosure to H, I think the conversation went like this:
H: I consider marrying Yaku the best decision I have ever made in my life. (Some praise for the qualities he admires in my as a wife, mother, person in general).
T: (Affirming H's statement about how blessed he is to have me) Many years ago, when I was looking, I would consider how good of a wife I thought potential partners would make. I would have considered Yaku excellent wife material!

I don't think there was anything creepy intended, but it weirded H out a bit and he has teased me that I am going to see T for other reasons as a result. Ugh. I mean, I'm guessing I would have either been somewhere between not even born and ten years old at the time period he is referring to, so I really doubt he was saying anything like, "I wish I had gotten there first." The guy is happily married by all accounts.
((((Yaku))))

I say this from a place where I guess I feel protective of you too – so take this all very lightly. I don’t think your Ts protectiveness is out of place. He has a client (your H) with a condition he is responsible for treating and that condition is leading another client (you) to be hurt (unintentionally or not) in a horrible way. If your T never felt protective of you, and never talked with your H about the impact of his condition on you then I’d be concerned…

For his own sake, your H needs to deal with this problem - which includes dealing with the impact it very naturally has on you. Ethically, morally, therapeutically, and in every way, it is very important that your T and H think about and work through how to manage his condition so that it doesn't hurt others. This would be true regardless if your T was treating you as well or not.

Many Ts won't treat two clients of the same family because it can make things even more complicated, and this might be happening in the case of you and your H. The fact that you and your H see the same T could also be a tool to be used to help you and your H.

There just isn't any way I think for your T to totally ignore in his heart the things he talks to you about when he is also doing therapy with your H. The individual therapy processes for you and your H are going to impact each other via your T, even if your T doesn't talk about it directly with the other spouse. If that impact right now is your T feeling protective about your H invading and hurting you, then I don't think that is any kind of major red flag problem. I know you are talking about a lot more going on with your T than just him feeling protective, it is all more complicated then just that, but if we just look at the one part of your T feeling protective of you (and the other things going on may be resulting from that), I think that part is ok.

If your T was not seeing you, and was only seeing your H, and knew your H was still having episodes of sexsomina, i.e. sexually assaulting his wife in his sleep, it would seem very normal for your T to talk with your H and ADAMANTLY urge your H for the two of you not sleeping in the same bed until his condition improved to where you would not be hurt by it.

I think it is ok for your T to talk to your H about it (if you are ok with it), AND, I think it is very needed for you to make your decision and let your T and H know and let them process through it. I think both are ok and perhaps even necessary...? Your T talking with your H about it might help him be more prepared for when you let him know about your decision. You telling your H about your decision also seems essential as well.

I think you and your H and your T have a great opportunity to walk through this painful hard stuff together, as a team. That’s just my take, which might be totally off the mark.

I know you don't want your T too move in too close and do too much and then run away. I can really relate to that. When I start to feel like someone is bending their boundaries to be closer to help me, I get terrified they will get closer than they can handled and reject me and run away. Then I tend to push them away or focus my energy on managing their boundaries for them. For me, it doesn't work though... Again and again, I have tried this, but it really just doesn't work. One way or another, it has backfired on me.

I don’t see any major red flags about your Ts actions. I could be missing it. The fact that his boundaries are changing is a sign that he’s figuring how how he can and can’t best help you through this difficult and complex situation. I think that is a good sign. I think it is also a good sign that he recognizes he has limits and stuff. His humility makes me feel a little more ok with how he is handling all of it.

I think you are doing a really good job of sorting through this very tough and complicated situation too. I think that the more you focus on getting your needs for safety met, the more your T will be able to help you... I don't know how to explain this very well. Your T is the only one who can manage his own boundaries. You can bring it up with him that you are concerned he is moving in too close, but, I hope you keep the primary focus on you and what you need – and the fact that you need him to stay within boundaries he can keep and for him to manage that so you don't get hurt by him badly managing his own boundaries…

And most of all, I hope you keep the issue of being safe at night when you sleep as a primary issue right now. I think if that settles out, a lot else will seem easier and you will be able to work on other therapeutic stuff a lot easier - like the counter transference. Your T justifiably feels protective of you. The thing is, you have something to be protected from in the here and now... and if that is solved, your T might feel a lot less protective of you… and you might feel a lot less concerned… does this make sense?

hang in there,
~jane

p.s. edited to fix spelling errors as I tend to do.
Thanks, Jane. You helped a lot. I guess I just need T to be willing to engage the boundaries discussion, because despite him telling me, "I'm not leaving," I can't really believe he can keep up the level of engagement he is offering me. I'm pretty certain he's going to withdraw and change the boundaries suddenly. I just really need him to talk me through it to directly reassure me of what will happen if it starts to get too heavy for him. I need to know what I can expect. I need to know he won't send me away. I need to know if I ask for things he can't meet that he will deal with me sensitively. I wish he would just TELL me this stuff and be transparent. Blah.
yaku,

That would be an excellent discussion for you to have with your T, about the boundaries and him changing them suddenly. My T and I have discussed my second weekly appointment, which he promises when I go back to once a week, it will be something we decide together. He is not going to unilaterally just take it away from me. But it was really nice to hear that.

Aside from any countertransference your T may be having or may not be having, there is the impact that your T's words have on your H and how your H feels about your T and how effective therapy will be for H if he is a little jealous of your relationship with T, and how he thinks T feels for you. Do you see what I mean? This is called triangulation. It's usually not a good setup for a number of reasons. Maybe it can work but perhaps the thing to do, since YOU are seeing issues with it, is to bring it up to T and open it up for discussion. Not that anything has to change but maybe T should be aware that H is feeling jealous/threatened.

Love,

Liese
Thanks, Liese. It's so hard to tell if H actually IS feeling threatened or I am just projecting that onto him, since it is how I would feel if our situations were reversed. It could be he is just teasing me, because he can tell it gets to me. He does that all the time, given pretty much any opportunity. It's like a little boy pulling a girl's hair...

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